Running Myths

RayCun

Testosterscone wrote: »

While they might be more digestable it should be pointed out that it doesn't affect absorption rates.

which is why I've switched to SuperTechnoGels :pac:

Testosterscone

RayCun wrote: »

which is why I've switched to SuperTechnoGels :pac:

They double as rave glosticks

RayCun

Testosterscone wrote: »

They double as rave glosticks

Maurtens gels

Ceepo

Testosterscone wrote: »

Foam rolling definite is a good alternative however personally I think that the static stretch can be more specific and have some crossover to plyometric properties (i.e force generation under stretch)* which can yield benefits in itself

* I don't have research papers to back this up it is more just a hypothesis

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, by using a foam roller, i meant to use it do do MFR, not just roll up and down, because this isj ust pointless

Sorry man, but you lost me on the rest there,
Static stretch is more specific to what ?
Cross over to plyometric excersies ?


With traditional static stretching, you are looking to shut off one muscle locally by trying to "elongating" it through an external force. eg pulling foot instep to pull hip flexor in extenstion. Each joint has an agonist and antagonist acting on it. These can pull from both the insertion or origin point (force pulls to either beginning or end of the muscle from opposite direction) If you are engaging the antagonist muscle then you are not doing Static stretch, but more of a Reciprocal inhibition meaning that the agonist lengthens while the antagonist shortens. What you should look to do is to integrate the muscle that you seek to stretch into an entire myofascial chain while orienting the muscle in a different direction than its default. This is done through a muscular activation in the body as opposed to that external force.

Here is a very good way to release tight hamstrings while integrating Glutes and posterior chain.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5AqyIqRVHs

If you can start do retension in the correct way it will lead to muscles and fascia working together to tensions bones in space with more stability/equally.

Some of the problem as you mentioned earlier is that as runners, some get muscle dominant, quad, calf etc, and don't/can't recruit the whole musculature system.
Ask any runner if they feel their glutes when the walk, most cant. If they cant feel their glutes, then what, 3 sets of 10 glute bridge, etc, while lying down on the floor.... now please stand up and show me how you walk like that.

If the can ask them do they feel the contralateral lats when their glute fires.
This is what i mean about integration. if you can get this type of integration then you aren't going to get the areas of restriction in the 1st place.

This is something that the Physio/NMT/PT and S&C industry are not doing at the moment.
But then its hardly their fault it's what they know, as pretty much all they know is to work a muscle in isolation.

I realize some or all of this will go over the peoples heads,
If people think that doing a static muscle stretch or Glute activation exercise in isolation is the way you go, then who am I to differ

Trampas

Not a myth a good clear out before a lsr is a must

Testosterscone

Ceepo wrote: »

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, by using a foam roller, i meant to use it do do MFR, not just roll up and down, because this isj ust pointless

Sorry man, but you lost me on the rest there,
Static stretch is more specific to what ?
Cross over to plyometric excersies ?


With traditional static stretching, you are looking to shut off one muscle locally by trying to "elongating" it through an external force. eg pulling foot instep to pull hip flexor in extenstion. Each joint has an agonist and antagonist acting on it. These can pull from both the insertion or origin point (force pulls to either beginning or end of the muscle from opposite direction) If you are engaging the antagonist muscle then you are not doing Static stretch, but more of a Reciprocal inhibition meaning that the agonist lengthens while the antagonist shortens. What you should look to do is to integrate the muscle that you seek to stretch into an entire myofascial chain while orienting the muscle in a different direction than its default. This is done through a muscular activation in the body as opposed to that external force.

Here is a very good way to release tight hamstrings while integrating Glutes and posterior chain.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5AqyIqRVHs

If you can start do retension in the correct way it will lead to muscles and fascia working together to tensions bones in space with more stability/equally.

Some of the problem as you mentioned earlier is that as runners, some get muscle dominant, quad, calf etc, and don't/can't recruit the whole musculature system.
Ask any runner if they feel their glutes when the walk, most cant. If they cant feel their glutes, then what, 3 sets of 10 glute bridge, etc, while lying down on the floor.... now please stand up and show me how you walk like that.

If the can ask them do they feel the contralateral lats when their glute fires.
This is what i mean about integration. if you can get this type of integration then you aren't going to get the areas of restriction in the 1st place.

This is something that the Physio/NMT/PT and S&C industry are not doing at the moment.
But then its hardly their fault it's what they know, as pretty much all they know is to work a muscle in isolation.

I realize some or all of this will go over the peoples heads,
If people think that doing a static muscle stretch or Glute activation exercise in isolation is the way you go, then who am I to differ

No worries (little did I know that when I started this thread wouldn't just be one to pop in and out with quick mobile responses haha) My thought process was a little muddles bear with me;

My point was in relation to the influencing the stretch shortening cycle and static stretching almost acting as eccentric contraction training due to gravity (taking the a basic gastrocnemius stretch and just as a visual). I should make the caveat that in this case static stretching would be a precursor to neurological retraining would and not in isolation.

Starting to see the angle you are coming at this from and for record I don't disagree apologies my discussion here was from a singular aspect. I do think Functional movement has alot of merit and something which has stood to me for years (though you do get some dubious looks when you go to the lats when working to help improve vertical jump or the likes) I would be very surprised though to say that most in the industry don't know about this though. In my experience a large number of courses delve in depth into the likes of Anatomy Trains and Biotensegrity. Whether or not all practictioners use it is a different matter.

IvoryTower

So have we decided that there is some use to static stretching or not cause you've both lost me!

Testosterscone

IvoryTower wrote: »

So have we decided that there is some use to static stretching or not cause you've both lost me!

Personally I see plenty of merit for it for potential performance improvement, but not for injury prevention.

IvoryTower

What about injury recovery. I've never been to a physio that hasn't prescribed stretching as part of the rehab. Surely they can't all be wrong... maybe it's like the food pyramid thing where it turns out they literally are all wrong

Testosterscone

IvoryTower wrote: »

What about injury recovery. I've never been to a physio that hasn't prescribed stretching as part of the rehab. Surely they can't all be wrong... maybe it's like the food pyramid thing where it turns out they literally are all wrong

Injury recovery would be a different.

Simple analogy would be a tire getting a puncture. You can plug the puncture as a short term fix but unless you actually fix it so that the rest of the tire is not compensating and will ultimately be compromised. The body does this by plugging the gap short term and slowly changing that into functional muscle tissue over time with the right conditions (this is why post injury rehab is crucial for long term rehabilitation and reduced chance of re-occurrence )

Ceepo

IvoryTower wrote: »

So have we decided that there is some use to static stretching or not cause you've both lost me!

You need to ask why you're doing a static stretch. This will help answer the question.

If you're looking for any of these..
1, Does it improve performance ? I linked a few study's earlier to say there is no evidence to say it improves performance, on the contrary it may hinder it.
2, Are you doing it to lengthen a muscle? Well it can't physically do that.
3, Can you release "knots" by static stretching.. No is the answer.
4, Has it any neurologic benefit.. No.. if you're stretching a muscle in isolation ( think calf strerch)..
5, You think you can change a moving pattern in a meaningful way by just doing a stretch... You can't, unless you do some neurological retraining along with it. ( Don't see anyone doing this at a race or after training)
6, What happenes if you stretch a muscle that is all ready stretched long.. ( think hamstring because of hip aligement ) You become more quad dominant.
7, What happens if you stretch a muscle that has micro tears in if after a hard session.. you risk tearing them further.
8, Can over stretching create a laxity in ligaments and tendons.. Yes for sure.
9, Injury prevention.. No
There's a lot more I could out in here as well
Then there's no benefit.

If you're doing for any of these.
1, Feel the need to fit it because everyone one else does it.
2, Makes you feel good.
3, Can you temporally relax a muscle by stretching it.. yes..

Then there's a benefit ..

I'm not seeing any real reason to do any static stretching and a lot against it..

I'll leave it up to you to decide..

Ceepo

IvoryTower wrote: »

What about injury recovery. I've never been to a physio that hasn't prescribed stretching as part of the rehab. Surely they can't all be wrong... maybe it's like the food pyramid thing where it turns out they literally are all wrong

This may or not relevant.
The theory is that if you have a muscle tear, new collegen is played down to repair the tissue. And stretching the the recovery phase " align' s the finer in the same direction as muscle finer instead of an ad hoc fashion. Thus reducing scar tissue.

It doesn't take away that you should question things.
The physiotherapy industry puts themselves on a high pedestal. They gladly tell you about their researched and evidence based protocols.
This same evidence and research based theory teaches them that "knots" or trigger points don't exist.
But yet run courses on dry needling ?? What are they doing with the needles??.
Some of them also do acupuncture... where the stick needles into invisible "meridian lines"
That no surgeon has found yet, or us listed on any anatomy books that if came across.
And washed away and dismissed the fascia system when the done dissection of cadavers..

Always challenge your beliefs and the beliefs of others.. There's a lot to be gained from it.;)

Testosterscone

Ceepo wrote: »

Always challenge your beliefs and the beliefs of others.. There's a lot to be gained from it.;)

+1 to this in all facets of life, worst case you reaffirm your own belief's best case you open yourself up to new idea's either way your level of understanding is increased

cullenswood

Ceepo wrote: »

This same evidence and research based theory teaches them that "knots" or trigger points don't exist.

So what am I feeling when foam rolling?

Cartman78

Running myths



1) "This is the fastest and flattest course in Limerick/Munster/Ireland etc" - if I had a euro for every time I've heard this before a race and then to encounter numerous combinations of sharp climbs and long drags, then I would have a lot more euros than I currently have.



2) "Nah...not really training that much...planning to race myself back into fitness" - heard this loads of times, have never heard anybody saying it works though. Have personally found that racing frequently while not training properly inevitably leads to injury.

Ceepo

cullenswood wrote: »

So what am I feeling when foam rolling?

You would need to ask the guys giving lecture in UL Physio dept this.

But this is what is being taught.
A physiotherapist friend of mine done a dry needling course 2 week ago run by the charter physio of Ireland.
The person he was teamed up with just graduated this year from there.. absolutely no palpation skill what so ever but could quote research studies to beat the band.

Most of these courses teach you what to think. But they very seldom teach you how to think
Knowledge is a great thing,
But so is wisdom.

career move

Testosterscone wrote: »

The only caveat I have found is that looking through the research the optimal post training window seems to be a little weak in terms of evidence for protein synthesis (outside of poor papers from supplement companies funny enough) in comparison to hitting your recommended daily nutrient intake over the day and a post session meal (incl carbs)

There's research suggesting timing isn't of major importance
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02640410701607205?scroll=top&needAccess=true and more that claims it is
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/288150322_Optimal_protein_intake_to_maximize_muscle_protein_synthesis_Examinations_of_optimal_meal_protein_intake_and_frequency_for_athletes

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5828430/

I guess it's a hard thing to prove conclusively. From my point of view I've found that using whey protein immediately after a hard workout is more beneficial than not using it at all. I find I recover quicker and have less DOMS. I don't think it's a placebo effect because I was very sceptical before I tried it.

Testosterscone

career move wrote: »

There's research suggesting timing isn't of major importance
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02640410701607205?scroll=top&needAccess=true and more that claims it is
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/288150322_Optimal_protein_intake_to_maximize_muscle_protein_synthesis_Examinations_of_optimal_meal_protein_intake_and_frequency_for_athletes

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5828430/

I guess it's a hard thing to prove conclusively. From my point of view I've found that using whey protein immediately after a hard workout is more beneficial than not using it at all. I find I recover quicker and have less DOMS. I don't think it's a placebo effect because I was very sceptical before I tried it.

Sorry was not dismissing protein for recovery and muscle synthesis as a whole just more the idea that you don't have to hit it in that 30/45 min window post exercises. Aragon has addressed this both here and previously in his 2013 paper IIRC that the data for the majority tends to be acute response.

As such you have many subjects in a fasted state prior to the exercise (common in many of these studies) which influences that data.

If however a post workout shake addresses protein intake from an overall daily intake then it is definitely a positive

Ceepo

Running myth.

Doing Glute bridge excersies transfers into the gait cycle......It doesn't

Doing Glute activation excersies before you do a run helps your Glutes to work when you run...it doesn't

Murph_D

Midfoot good, heel strike bad.

Another myth?

robinph

Cartman78 wrote: »

2) "Nah...not really training that much...planning to race myself back into fitness" - heard this loads of times, have never heard anybody saying it works though. Have personally found that racing frequently while not training properly inevitably leads to injury.

I've not done too badly with doing more racing than training in the past. Currently struggling to do either, but that is down to life getting in the way rather than any injuries. Getting ill due to having a kid has put me out of action more than any injury has.

Ceepo

Murph_D wrote: »

Midfoot good, heel strike bad.

Another myth?

Landing on your heal is not a bad thing as long as it's in relation to your hip. Try not to over stride

Ceepo

Another huge running myth..

Lactic acid is a bad thing..

Usually gets the blame for everything from Doms to joint stiffness.

And to kill another myth... No you can't stretch it out or massage doesn't flush it out