London protests for second Brexit Vote

Folkstonian

I was a soft remainer back in 2016. I’ve no particular love for the EU or a desire to see closer political union, but ultimately I think Britain has done relatively well out of being inside with an ability to influence proceedings.

If there were to be a second vote I think I would still be in exactly the same place, and would vote to remain once more. Retreating from the trenches when things aren’t going your way isn’t how you make things better. You have to stay in the fight and make things better.

I do have some concerns though about the way a second vote would almost certainly cause the cracks in British society to widen even further and here’s why;

If a second vote occurred I would expect the outcome to be a marginal win for remain.

I’d expect the remain vote in Scotland and Northern Ireland would increase, and that wales would swing to a remain vote also.

But, quite importantly, I don’t think that the swing in England will be quite big enough to make England as a constituent country actually vote definitely to remain in the EU.

Let’s not forget that the leave vote in England was won by 2 million votes and the turnout as a percentage of the population was actually the highest of all the UK’s constituent countries.

Now, I’ve always been of the opinion that there’s absolutely no way to properly square the circle in terms of taking Scotland out of the Eu having voted convincingly to remain... so for England to potentially vote twice in the space of two years to exit the European Union, and to be kept inside, well I think a constitutional crisis will erupt that makes the current Scottish and northern Irish crises look tame.

So I don’t know where we’d go from there, except headlong into the breakup of the U.K. and even though I’m not a particularly fervent unionist (hailing from the far reaches of southeast England has meant that Scotland, Wales and NI have always seemed distant and almost irrelevant to me) is still much rather see Britain not disintegrate into a Balkan-like mess.

Folkstonian

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Minderbinder wrote: »

Oh right, because a lot of folks voted the way the loud mouths didn’t want them to vote means they were brainwashed?

Look, nobody could really predict what would happen with brexit before the referendum. I think that was pretty clear. Unfortunately the current government (who were opposed to leaving) are trying their best to find a stalemate. This is all being orchestrated by them and the EU imo.

You will probably get what you want eventually and it won’t be democratic but I’m sure you’ll be happy nonetheless.

A lot of folks voted the way the loud moths told them there's be an extra 350 million for the NHS. Remind me who arranged this and how accurate the statement turned out to be again...?

They won't' get what they want, they'll get what the ultimately deserve regardless of whether they were brainwashed, selfish, too ignorant to read something objective or simply don't care how **** things get.

Yours is the sort of gobby and unnecessarily adversarial discourse that has got Britain into the state its in right now, sadly. Being a part of the European Union isn’t a clear cut issue for a lot of people... it doesn’t make one a thick, ignorant bastard worthy of insults and abuse because they have a different outlook to you

Ulysses Gaze

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

A lot of folks voted the way the loud moths told them there's be an extra 350 million for the NHS. Remind me who arranged this and how accurate the statement turned out to be again...?

They won't' get what they want, they'll get what the ultimately deserve regardless of whether they were brainwashed, selfish, too ignorant to read something objective or simply don't care how **** things get.

And then people like you wonder why Trump gets voted in, Brexit happens and the Italians and Austrians vote in the Far Right.

Using the Clinton "Basket of Deplorables" argument won't win you friends, voters or elections.

_Kaiser_

There's a lot of factors at play here.. some of which have been covered already...

- The nature of the decision. I agree with the ides that a referendum is great for deciding social issues (although I have a lot of concerns about the influence of social media and its ability to limit open discussion if said discussion isn't the "popular view), but it's not great for deciding complex economic. legal and regulatory agreements

- No one expected Brexit to pass, but since it has it's become a fiasco, largely because the idea of a member state leaving the EU was never worked through beyond a vague theory. It's also not in the EU's interest to have a successful Brexit as it could lead to other countries following suit. This has skewed the debate, media coverage (amplified by the aforementioned social media negatives), and political negotiating where it has been universally (in those circles) viewed by those groups as a "mistake" made by people who were uneducated on the facts, lied to, throwing a tantrum/protest vote, etc

A better agenda first, before looking for a "do over" is to look at WHY people DID vote leave, and what has the EU done to address that (beyond insulting people's intelligence). This nonense about deadlines and dire consequences as a result is just scaremongering. We saw during the financial crisis that the EU leadership can and will change the "rules" on the fly if it suits its interests. If the EU decided that another 12 months to trash out the issues is needed, you can be sure they'd find/make up some reason to justify it.

No-one wants economic turmoil and massive disruption... but Brexit happened because an increasing number of ordinary citizens (and not just in the UK) are unhappy with the direction of the EU in particularly the last few years, but since the crash really. Any "dissent" is not to be tolerated, and the interests of the majority only count if it suits the Big 2. This is why we have seen the rise of more extreme left/right parties and polticians throughout Europe in the last 18 months.

I've seen nothing from the EU to indicate that these concerns and perceptions are being given serious consideration and changes made to reassure the citizens rather than patronise them. As such, even if Brexit is somehow reversed (which is very possible under the same "make it up as we go" approach we've seen lots before), it'll only be a temporary solution IMO, and probably cause the next "leave" campaign to be even more damaging and significant.

ToddyDoody

Taken from The Guardian:

Nigel Farage never promised that Brexit “would be a huge success”, he said on LBC radio. “I never said it would be a beneficial thing to leave and everyone would be better off,” said Farage – who has repeatedly said we would be better off – “just that we would be self-governing."



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YihiSqO4jnA[\url]

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Folkstonian wrote: »

Yours is the sort of gobby and unnecessarily adversarial discourse that has got Britain into the state its in right now, sadly. Being a part of the European Union isn’t a clear cut issue for a lot of people... it doesn’t make one a thick, ignorant bastard worthy of insults and abuse because they have a different outlook to you

Oh, I'm not advising or commenting on way or the other and whether or not it's the right choice, I'm commenting on the idea the tactics and claims that were use in order to influence the outcome.

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

And then people like you wonder why Trump gets voted in, Brexit happens and the Italians and Austrians vote in the Far Right.

Using the Clinton "Basket of Deplorables" argument won't win you friends, voters or elections.

I know exactly how he got in. When I saw the first ten minutes of the first debate it was pretty obvious he'd get in and how he'd get in: populist and unfounded claims that turned out to be somewhat spurious.

Elections are won by the best liars. You don't need to be effective to get power, you just need to be persuasive.

dr.fuzzenstein

ToddyDoody wrote: »

Taken from The Guardian:

Nigel Farage never promised that Brexit “would be a huge success”, he said on LBC radio. “I never said it would be a beneficial thing to leave and everyone would be better off,” said Farage – who has repeatedly said we would be better off – “just that we would be self-governing."



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YihiSqO4jnA[\url]

Farage is nothing but a rat catcher. And now it's time.to pay the Piper and march into the doom while he's playing his whistle.
And they'll go over the cliff screaming"Respect our Decision!" on the way down.
Ah well, it's sad, but what can you do.

Duckworth_Luas

tonycascarino wrote: »

700,000 people are not going to overturn the decision of the 17.4 million people who voted out. I'd be fairly certain if the original decision had been in favour of remain that there would be no chance of another referendum.

The U.K. already had an in-or-out referendum on membership of European project in 1975.

They voted to remain by 2-to-1, with 17.4 million back then agreeing with the Yes campaign.

ToddyDoody

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Farage is nothing but a rat catcher. And now it's time.to pay the Piper and march into the doom while he's playing his whistle.
And they'll go over the cliff screaming"Respect our Decision!" on the way down.
Ah well, it's sad, but what can you do.

Also, if you begin as you mean to continue...

https://www.ft.com/content/dfafc806-762d-11e8-a8c4-408cfba4327c

That's a cost to the economy of between £20 - £40 billion so far (over 2 years) or roughly £850 per household.

How much has it cost the EU so far?

Expensive business is Brexit.

The Rape of Lucretia

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

... which is exactly why a lot of people see the first one as undemocratic...

The only people who see it as undemocratic are the sore losers. Having a second vote would be undemocratic.
The referendum was very clear, despite the attempts since to muddy the discussion. It was 'in' or 'out'. People knew what they were voting for.

Sure, the standard of debate was abysmal, people didnt inform themselves on where it might lead, or worry about the details - or even consider how you might have borders without a border for NI.
But thems the limits of democracy. It does allow people to put a bullet in their own head if they believe thats a good thing to do.

paw patrol

I like the british they voted and they'll follow the course.
they have back bone unlike others who vote until they vote the right way

700k is just pissing in the wind.
1million marched against war in Iraq and that didn't stop tony blair

which is a tragic but beautiful irony at the moment.

gotta hand it to ian paisley - he was right in pope JP II and Tony Blair.

fly_agaric

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The referendum was very clear, despite the attempts since to muddy the discussion. It was 'in' or 'out'. People knew what they were voting for.

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Sure, the standard of debate was abysmal, people didnt inform themselves on where it might lead, or worry about the details

These statements seem to contradict.

It was very stupid and irresponsible to try and boil such a big and complex question to one yes/no referendum that can theoretically be won or lost by the margin of a single ballot paper.

Our endless referendums on the various EU treaties due to "Crotty" supreme court decision (incl. the Nice one with the rerun that anti EU types harp on about) are (edit - almost) equally stupid I think and will probably bite us again badly in the future.

If we are living beside a post brexit UK when next one of these pathetic referendums rolls around we'll have the full weight of the UK media + government + various shady influence campaigns on us boosting for "No". It is going to get interesting.

ArchXStanton

Gbear wrote: »

As we all know democracy is predicated on there only being one vote at the start, and then no more ever again.

What do we want... Democracy.. When do we want it?.... Only when it suits our opinion it would seem

questionmark?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

A lot of folks voted the way the loud moths told them there's be an extra 350 million for the NHS. Remind me who arranged this and how accurate the statement turned out to be again...?

Ah here! I would have rathered the UK voted to Remain but if your going to bring up the NHS thing from some of the leave side you should also bring up the rubbish from the Remain loudmouths as well like it will cause World War 3! Idiots on both sides.

blanch152

orourkeda1977 wrote: »

I'll never vote again if this happens.

Whether you agree with a vote or not is irrelevant once the result is known. If a referendum is called the vote should stand. Thats it.

Would anti abortion protesters or people who disagreed with gay marriage get a re-vote. No nor should they.

There was a vote in Northern Ireland in 1975 about a united Ireland. It was defeated, is that the end of it?

There was a vote in Ireland in 1983 to put the right to life of the unborn into the Constitution. Why did those in favour of abortion get a chance to change this if you are right?

prinzeugen

blanch152 wrote: »

There was a vote in Northern Ireland in 1975 about a united Ireland. It was defeated, is that the end of it?

There was a vote in Ireland in 1983 to put the right to life of the unborn into the Constitution. Why did those in favour of abortion get a chance to change this if you are right?

Of course referendums can be held again but decades later. These left wing cry-babies that protested in London want another because they did not get the result they wanted.

The SNP promised the Scottish Independence referendum was a "once in a generation event". Now they want another but that is because they know time is running out for them.

Sturgeon claims EU remain voters are being ignored while she is ignoring the majority that wanted to remain part of the UK. Pure hypocrisy.

The left are always vocal when they don't get their own way.

prinzeugen

prinzeugen wrote: »

Of course referendums can be held again but decades later. These left wing cry-babies that protested in London want another because they did not get the result they wanted.

The SNP promised the Scottish Independence referendum was a "once in a generation event". Now they want another but that is because they know time is running out for them.

Sturgeon claims EU remain voters are being ignored while she is ignoring the majority that wanted to remain part of the UK. Pure hypocrisy.

The left are always vocal when they don't get their own way.

To be fair when the Scottish independence vote was happening there was no benefit to them being separated. Not as much the case now.

chrissb8

Also all this the waters being muddied? Excuse me are we all on the same page.

The absolutely out of touch with real Britain Tory governement, who as far as I can see have never really cared about Britain as a whole pushed these messages of leaving. Are people that blind not to see the warning signs that hmm maybe these t***s are at it again and have an angle. Coupled with the cartoon characters Farage and Boris driving it home, could no one see how utterly ridiculous it was they were pushing the leave vote.
Muddied messages. Right, yeah. They were messengers no one would care if they were shot and people act like they were fed false information from a reliable source. £350 million for the NHS, what the hell is that going to do?!?! 
that's nothing to run a health service the size of the UK's and people were saying oh you lied to us. As if that was a reasonable crux to get hung up about. People were just not bothered to inform themselves and there was plenty there to say remain. But instead, the jingnostic BRITAIN POWERS ON attitude took over and now they have what they want. They're on their own and they don't know what the hell to do. 
Britain has lost its competent politicians too. Say what you want about Blair and their predecessors but certainly, this s**t show would not have happened.

prinzeugen

Preston Dirty DucklingMGS wrote: »

To be fair when the Scottish independence vote was happening there was no benefit to them being separated. Not as much the case now.

There is zero benefit to an independent Scotland. The SNP claim there is but its been proven by their own people that had Scotland became independent, they would be bankrupt by now.

The interesting think about that protest in London was that the majority were not even British. Talking to my cousin in London and he said you could count on one hand the number of people speaking English. Majority were speaking french.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

questionmark? wrote: »

Ah here! I would have rathered the UK voted to Remain but if your going to bring up the NHS thing from some of the leave side you should also bring up the rubbish from the Remain loudmouths as well like it will cause World War 3! Idiots on both sides.

Not disagree with you here, either; but I was replying to a poster who implied that a second vote would be undeomcratic (for much the same reason the first one was) if the vote changed.

He's probably right, but he'll be right regardless of the outcome.

Harika

prinzeugen wrote: »

The interesting think about that protest in London was that the majority were not even British. Talking to my cousin in London and he said you could count on one hand the number of people speaking English. Majority were speaking french.

There were also people holding cardbox figures and paper heads on sticks to make the crowd look bigger.
Last

Duckworth_Luas

Harika wrote: »

There were also people holding cardbox figures and paper heads on sticks to make the crowd look bigger.
Last

I was there and I must correct you. They weren't paper heads, they were têtes en papier mâché.

Harika

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

They weren't paper heads, they were têtes en papier mâché.

Je suis trés desolé... Un menu big Mac avec fries et coca cola svp those French send their best inventions to Britain.

ancapailldorcha

prinzeugen wrote: »

There is zero benefit to an independent Scotland. The SNP claim there is but its been proven by their own people that had Scotland became independent, they would be bankrupt by now.

The interesting think about that protest in London was that the majority were not even British. Talking to my cousin in London and he said you could count on one hand the number of people speaking English. Majority were speaking french.

Almost everyone there was English and they came from all over the country.

ArmaniJeanss

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Almost everyone there was English and they came from all over the country.

But his cousin said there were no more than 5 English speaking people at the protest.
Hard to know who to believe really.

ancapailldorcha

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

But his cousin said there were no more than 5 English speaking people at the protest.
Hard to know who to believe really.

Difficult enough. The native people of the country turning up in droves to their capital city or loads of foreigners being flown in.

eagle eye

All this stuff about how bad the UK will be outside the EU is really just guesswork and theories. Nobody actually knows how the UK's economy will perform post-Brexit.
They could do very well and that's every bit as likely as it is that it will be terrible.

Mr. Incognito

eagle eye wrote: »

All this stuff about how bad the UK will be outside the EU is really just guesswork and theories. Nobody actually knows how the UK's economy will perform post-Brexit.
They could do very well and that's every bit as likely as it is that it will be terrible.

No it's not.

That's the problem with ignorance. It's contagous.

Adding tariffs and excise duty has very well known consequences. It's pretty basic economics.

Inflation and lack of competitiveness. Large unemployment and flight of capital.

The British Governments report was so bad it has been supressed.

This sort of ignorance and failure to face basic reality is what has the UK in such a mess.

eagle eye

eagle eye wrote: »

All this stuff about how bad the UK will be outside the EU is really just guesswork and theories. Nobody actually knows how the UK's economy will perform post-Brexit.
They could do very well and that's every bit as likely as it is that it will be terrible.

No it's not.

ancapailldorcha

eagle eye wrote: »

All this stuff about how bad the UK will be outside the EU is really just guesswork and theories. Nobody actually knows how the UK's economy will perform post-Brexit.
They could do very well and that's every bit as likely as it is that it will be terrible.

Nobody knows but signs are that it's an act of monumental stupidity and self harm.

Of course, it you ignore facts then it should be fine.

elefant

eagle eye wrote: »

All this stuff about how bad the UK will be outside the EU is really just guesswork and theories. Nobody actually knows how the UK's economy will perform post-Brexit.
They could do very well and that's every bit as likely as it is that it will be terrible.

'We've had enough of experts.'

Harika

eagle eye wrote: »

All this stuff about how bad the UK will be outside the EU is really just guesswork and theories. Nobody actually knows how the UK's economy will perform post-Brexit.
They could do very well and that's every bit as likely as it is that it will be terrible.

Everyone knows that in short term in wont be better. Not even the hardcore brexiteers are still claiming that. No one, no one! claims anymore it will immediately be better, what was a big selling point before the referendum, only in the long run of 10 to 50 years it will be better. Hallelujah!
Even worse, some of those start now claiming that UK will take a hit, but at least Ireland will also be hit as hard as them. Despicable

eagle eye

Mr. Incognito wrote:

No it's not.

Deleted User wrote:

No it's not.

ancapailldorcha wrote:

Of course, it you ignore facts then it should be fine.

None of you really know how it will go. It's all guesswork.
Reasons why it's guesswork and theories include the fact that this is a huge hit for Europe. If the UK don't come up with a deal that suits them and go alone they are going to hurt for sure but that's unlikely to happen. Even if it's a case of no agreement being reached that's suitable at the time with the EU it's very likely that it will happen quickly because both sides will be suffering without one another.

ancapailldorcha

eagle eye wrote: »

None of you really know how it will go. It's all guesswork.
Reasons why it's guesswork and theories include the fact that this is a huge hit for Europe. If the UK don't come up with a deal that suits them and go alone they are going to hurt for sure but that's unlikely to happen. Even if it's a case of no agreement being reached that's suitable at the time with the EU it's very likely that it will happen quickly because both sides will be suffering without one another.

I don't know how the weather will be tomorrow but I'm willing to bet that the weather forecast is going to be more accurate than the "Shur, it'll be grand" lads on the internet.

Both sides will survive but the EU is the bigger economic power by a wide margin. The UK won't be obliterated, it'll just be a poorer place to live both economically and culturally.

GLaDOS

Could argue the result is tainted by the fact the Leave campaign broke electoral law

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44856992

I'd worry there would be riots in the streets if a 2nd referendum is called though.

Blazer

GLaDOS wrote: »

Could argue the result is tainted by the fact the Leave campaign broke electoral law

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44856992

I'd worry there would be riots in the streets if a 2nd referendum is called though.

err no you couldn't.
More nonsense by the remainers ..yes it broke the law but cmon..it was a pittance and in no way would that have swung many voters.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

How much more will Ireland have to pay to EU when Britain leaves?

Hurrache

orourkeda1977 wrote: »

I'll never vote again if this happens.

Whether you agree with a vote or not is irrelevant once the result is known. If a referendum is called the vote should stand. Thats it.

Would anti abortion protesters or people who disagreed with gay marriage get a re-vote. No nor should they.

Your comparison would be better if after the gay marriage referendum we were told we are all gay now and forced into gay marriage. When people complain they're then told hang on a sec, you voted for gay marriage, what did you think was going to happen?

FTA69

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Almost everyone there was English and they came from all over the country.

The Million Melt March. Funnily enough for all the banging on about some of the scrotes backing the Leave campaign, there were some right wrong uns backing the carry-on on Saturday.

ancapailldorcha

FTA69 wrote: »

The Million Melt March. Funnily enough for all the banging on about some of the scrotes backing the Leave campaign, there were some right wrong uns backing the carry-on on Saturday.

Andrew Neil, hardly a remain sympathiser seemed to reckon it went off ok:

https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1053744665181282304

FTA69

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Andrew Neil, hardly a remain sympathiser seemed to reckon it went off ok:

https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1053744665181282304

Well I wasn't suggesting it kicked off in fairness ACD. What I mean is that as a socialist I find it very funny to see other socialists and left-wing people I know castigating those who suggest leaving could have positive effects while simultaneously supporting a march backed by casino capitalists, the Lib Dems and absolute chancers on the right of the Labour Party like Chuka Ummuna.

Rowing back on the Leave vote now is going to be an absolute disaster and will directly stimulate the resurgence of a far-right movement in Britain, no doubt in my mind.

LiveRadio.ie

I do no understand why brits complain and protest. After 10 years they will live like Swiss.

Good for them.

ancapailldorcha

FTA69 wrote: »

Well I wasn't suggesting it kicked off in fairness ACD. What I mean is that as a socialist I find it very funny to see other socialists and left-wing people I know castigating those who suggest leaving could have positive effects while simultaneously supporting a march backed by casino capitalists, the Lib Dems and absolute chancers on the right of the Labour Party like Chuka Ummuna.

Rowing back on the Leave vote now is going to be an absolute disaster and will directly stimulate the resurgence of a far-right movement in Britain, no doubt in my mind.

You used the word "scrote" which round here would imply that. Thanks for clarifying. Oddly though, there were socialists handing out some sort of publication adorned with the hammer and sickle. Not the best image I would have thought.

I don't see how economic ruin would be any sort of improvement and that's before we even get to Northern Ireland. I'd say that'll do a lot more for racist, far right populism than a democratic vote to remain given how big a mess Leave has been.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Andrew Neil, hardly a remain sympathiser seemed to reckon it went off ok:

https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1053744665181282304

When I got to "yobbery" I suddenly started reading this in Michael Palin's Pontious Pilate voice...

joe40

eagle eye wrote: »

All this stuff about how bad the UK will be outside the EU is really just guesswork and theories. Nobody actually knows how the UK's economy will perform post-Brexit.
They could do very well and that's every bit as likely as it is that it will be terrible.

Even the brexiteers acknowledge any benefits will be in the long term. Short to medium term holds nothing but pain for the British economy and by extension ours. Not to mention border issues in Ireland

Minderbinder

Princess Consuela Bananahammock;108417118

questionmark? wrote: »

Ah here! I would have rathered the UK voted to Remain but if your going to bring up the NHS thing from some of the leave side you should also bring up the rubbish from the Remain loudmouths as well like it will cause World War 3! Idiots on both sides.

Not disagree with you here, either; but I was replying to a poster who implied that a second vote would be undeomcratic (for much the same reason the first one was) if the vote changed. 

But that's not why I said it was undemocratic. I said it was undemocratic because calling a second referendum is implying that people voted incorrectly the first time. Of course with any vote there will be swing voters who are not strongly aligned either way. A lot of those swing voters who voted to leave will change their vote simply because they don't want a third referendum and are just sick of hearing about it. A lot of them will also just not bother voting because their voice isn't respected and voting doesn't seem to matter in this particular referendum, because they'll keep asking us until they get the outcome they want.

bob mcbob

eagle eye wrote: »

All this stuff about how bad the UK will be outside the EU is really just guesswork and theories. Nobody actually knows how the UK's economy will perform post-Brexit.
They could do very well and that's every bit as likely as it is that it will be terrible.

Possible but highly unlikely.

Taking 1 industry as an example car manufacturing. Nissan, Toyota, Honda and BMW are all major employers producing cars in the UK for the European market. All the cars will follow European standards (no matter what the take back control idiots say). Now all of these manufacturers use a just in time (JIT) manufacturing process. This means that they do not hold huge quantities of parts - these are ordered and delivered as they are needed - many of these parts come from Europe. If there are delays at the border with these then the manufacturing process stops. So to get round this, they may need to build massive warehouses for the parts and store much larger quantities locally. This will significantly increase costs. Gradually these manufacturing plants become more and more uncompetitive. They will not close immediately, they will just wither away.

The same will happen for other manufacturing industries and it not confined to car manufacturing.

0cp71eyxkb94qf

This post has been deleted.

blinding

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Andrew Neil, hardly a remain sympathiser seemed to reckon it went off ok:

https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1053744665181282304

Blair and Campbell ignored a considerably bigger march on a much more serious issue :eek:

lawred2

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Not understanding the differences between 2 different votes and then using it as a griping point decades later sounds very Irish tbh.

Doesn't sound Irish at all. Irish people are relatively well politically engaged.

However it does sound very British. Ignorant ill informed tropery.