Madeleine McCann

maebee

Accident happened, parents hid body

retro:electro wrote: »

It’s all relative I suppose. I can’t say I would be divulging details to a pushy stranger who felt entitled to know everything out of sheer nosiness, and I don’t blame Kate for being cynical in the slightest. She embarked on her mission based solely on her own authority, she wasn’t enlisted by anyone. I think that’s completely unprofessional and strange.

Yvonne Martin had worked in Child Protection Services for 25 years. She was in PDL at the time of Madeleine's disappearance and offered her help, which was refused by the McCanns. Unbelievable.

Plumbthedepths

retro:electro wrote:

When someone identifies themselves to you, they’re still a stranger. She was a stranger, and Kate decided to decline her pushy and entitled requests. I don’t blame her for that.

From my reading of the witness statement Kate was lead away from talking to her.
Sure everyone is a stranger until they introduce themselves as I said the person in question identified herself and offered her credentials. Seems turning down genuine help was common occurrence.

gozunda

Something Else

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

A pushy stranger who identified herself with her credentials?

...Knowing that they are doctors she found it absolutely abnormal that they left their children alone at home. Associating all of this with her professional experience, which tells her that in 99.99 % of missing children cases, the parents or other family members are involved, she felt it was her duty to inform the police of this.

Something that the parents would also have been aware of being medical professional imo
:eek:

retro:electro

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Seems turning down genuine help was common occurrence.

Im not sure how a social worker thought she could help find a missing child. It’s nothing to do with the nature of their job.

I have difficulty with the inability of some to recognise just how out of order and unprofessional her behaviour was.

It seems to me that they are criticised for both the help they enlisted and the help they chose to ignore. Again, every decision used as a rod to beat them with whatever particular way the wind happens to be blowing.

*shrugs*

Plumbthedepths

The McCanns kept strange company, going to the home of a paedophile for dinner. Their friend Payne known to a child protection officer through the course of her work and subject of a statement to Police in the UK.

maebee

Accident happened, parents hid body

retro:electro wrote: »

Im not sure how a social worker thought she could help find a missing child. It’s nothing to do with the nature of their job.



*shrugs*

Are you for real? If I found myself in a foreign country and my child had just been "abducted", I would bite the hand off the English Social Worker wanting to help me.

Plumbthedepths

retro:electro wrote:

Im not sure how a social worker thought she could help find a missing child. It’s nothing to do with the nature of their job.

She advised Kate not to speak to the media, good advice but as with advice of that nature it was ignored by the McCanns. Anyway you have said what you believed happened and you will not diverge from that. Paraphrasing but that's the gist of a reply you gave.

retro:electro

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

maebee wrote: »

Are you for real? If I found myself in a foreign country and my child had just been "abducted", I would bite the hand off the Social Worker wanting to help me.

Good for you. Like I said, it’s all relative. I don’t judge them for decling. She commented herself on the dreadful state Kate was in and then proceeded to bombard her with the most intrusive questions. Ultimately, she was nothing more than a stranger off the street with zero experience in finding missing children.
Repeating myself now and I’ve made my position clear so I won’t be commenting further on this.

gozunda

Something Else

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

The McCanns kept strange company, going to the home of a paedophile for dinner. Their friend Payne known to a child protection officer through the course of her work and subject of a statement to Police in the UK.

And the child protection officer remarking that he appeared to be minding the twins.

I do wonder whether the McCanns and the Paynes still go on holiday together and does David Payne still bathe the children. Very odd behaviour tbh ..

Plumbthedepths

gozunda wrote:

I wonder do the McCanns and the Paynes still go on holiday together and does David Payne still bathe the children...

If someone spoke to me about my 4 year old child in a sexualised manner, I'd be going away but not on holidays. That fact Gerry seemed to be ok with the conversation is disturbing to say the least.

maebee

Accident happened, parents hid body

retro:electro wrote: »

I don’t judge them for decling.

?
They declined help in finding their missing daughter? These are the people who launched a million dollar campaign to find their missing daughter

Plumbthedepths

maebee wrote:

? They declined help in finding their missing daughter? These are the people who launched a million dollar campaign to find their missing daughter

It seems from the statement once it became clear who and what Yvonne was the person with the McCanns couldn't get them away from her fast enough. Curious.

MonkieSocks

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

The McCanns kept strange company, going to the home of a paedophile for dinner. Their friend Payne known to a child protection officer through the course of her work and subject of a statement to Police in the UK.

So did the Leicestershire investigate the allegation she made about David Payne.

Such an allegation made to police would require an investigation.

He's still working as a Doctor,what did the investigation find

Plumbthedepths

MonkieSocks wrote:

Such an allegation made to police would require an investigation.

You'd be ok with another man talking abiut your 4 year old daughter in a sexualised manner?

retro:electro

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

MonkieSocks wrote: »

So did the Leicestershire investigate the allegation she made about David Payne.

Such an allegation made to police would require an investigation.

He's still working as a Doctor,what did the investigation find

Did she even make an allegation? Or was the sum total of her contribution that she had a “feeling” she had seen him at some stage in her line of work, and wasn’t sure of the capacity.

From PJ:

She adds that her hypothesis is that she may have come to know him professionally through work, potentially having been colleagues at work or have worked at the same place but she cannot be certain where she met him as she does not remember


However she added about him: She clarifies that she is capable of making a photographic identification of the individual, and emphasises that with the identified photo it is possible to access the database of the British Police and ascertain whether the individual is related to any crimes involving children

I wonder how that went..

Necro

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

I dunno, some randomer comes up and shoves documents in my face in the aftermath of my child going missing they'd be more likely to be punched in the face than me accepting their assistance.

Don't see how a social worker can provide any assistance to the Mc Canns in this instance.

Also they'd likely not want to engage with social workers at all given the lead up to Madeline going missing.

MonkieSocks

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

retro:electro wrote: »

.

....

Processos Vol XIII
Page 3421
Date : 2007 – 11 - 14

To: The Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation Paolo Rebelo

From: Paolo Ferreira, Inspector

Service Information

Subject: Expedient related to Yvone Warren Martin


In the sequence of the contents of the service information in annex, which was prepared by Inspector Josonteira on 12 – 06 – 2007, the questioning of Yvone Warren Martin was twice begun, according to the files that are also joined to this.

The statement relates in detail her intervention with the McCann couple after having heard about Madeleine’s disappearance.

She adds that on one occasion, because it had occurred to her that the parents and the friends could eventually be involved in the child’s disappearance,
she wrote an anonymous letter to the British police.

The statements given to the PJ today by Yvone Martin provide a concrete clarification of the reasons for her suspicions, which in my opinion, do not point to any concrete element that could, in any way, make other inquiries directly related to her statements, viable.

With nothing further to add.

Signed

Inspector Ferreira

maebee

Accident happened, parents hid body

MonkieSocks wrote: »

So did the Leicestershire investigate the allegation she made about David Payne.

Such an allegation made to police would require an investigation.

He's still working as a Doctor,what did the investigation find

Leicestershire police have been known to hold back. They held back on the Gaspars statements for 5 months

MonkieSocks

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

You'd be ok with another man talking abiut your 4 year old daughter in a sexualised manner?

WTF :mad:

I was responding to your post, where you said Payne was a pedo and come up with this ****.

The lowest point this thread as ever gone.

Plumbthedepths

Necro wrote:

Also they'd likely not want to engage with social workers at all given the lead up to Madeline going missing.

This I would imagine was the reason for the dismissal of help, also D Payne may not have been comfortable with her being around .

Plumbthedepths

MonkieSocks wrote:

I was responding to your post, where you said Payne was a pedo and come up with this ****.

I didn't say Payne was a Paedophile that was a different friend of the McCanns . He has since died.

MonkieSocks

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

[QUOTE=maebee;109773369]Leicestershire police have been known to hold back. They held back on the Gaspars statements for 5 months[/QUOTE]


So do you think the UK police would allow a pedophile to work in a hospital

Necro

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

This I would imagine was the reason for the dismissal of help, also D Payne may not have been comfortable with her being around .

Can't really blame them tbh. A social worker is not an investigator, they're more likely to cause more hassle and distraction rather than letting them focus on finding their missing daughter.

Reading the files that were linked the other day of independent witnesses I'm as confident as I can be without any evidential proof that Madeline was likely abducted and the parents had nothing to do with tbh.

Their emotional reaction and insistence she was taken to me leads to the (unproven) fact that the kids were likely sedated, so they knew there was no possible way Madeline could just wander from the apartment and get lost.

Plumbthedepths

Sir Clement Freud is the person they dined with that was found to be a Paedophile.

Plumbthedepths

Necro wrote:

Reading the files that were linked the other day of independent witnesses I'm as confident as I can be without any evidential proof that Madeline was likely abducted and the parents had nothing to do with tbh.

I would be on the other side of the fence. Madeline never left P d L with an abductor. The inability of two police forces , 4 investigation agencies, to find evidence of abduction sways me plus the behaviour of the McCanns and their seemingly unwillingness to help the police.

maebee

Accident happened, parents hid body

Necro wrote: »

Can't really blame them tbh. A social worker is not an investigator, they're more likely to cause more hassle and distraction rather than letting them focus on finding their missing daughter.

Reading the files that were linked the other day of independent witnesses I'm as confident as I can be without any evidential proof that Madeline was likely abducted and the parents had nothing to do with tbh.

Their emotional reaction and insistence she was taken to me leads to the (unproven) fact that the kids were likely sedated, so they knew there was no possible way Madeline could just wander from the apartment and get lost.

The Social Worker offered to help them. They declined her help. Very very strange. If you believed your 4 year old daughter had just been abducted, you would listen to a British Social working specializing in children. They didn't want to hear from her. Very strange

retro:electro

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

The inability of two police forces , 4 investigation agencies, to find evidence of abduction sways me.

If you are using the police force and investigators as a metric of proficiency then you should also be reminded that nothing of any evidentiary value was ever found that implicated the McCanns either; hence them never being charged with anything.

Plumbthedepths

retro:electro wrote:

If you are using the police force and investigators as a metric of proficiency then you should also be reminded that nothing of any evidentiary value was ever found that implicated the McCann’s either; hence them never being charged.

Scotland Yard was only tasked with investigating an abduction, this was the reason Colin Sutton refused to lead the investigation . The PJ is derided by many on here as being inept, they followed the abduction theory for 3 months but then turned their attention to the McCanns. Again though haven't you said you are convinced she was abducted and nothing will change your mind?

maebee

Accident happened, parents hid body

"Scotland Yard was only tasked with investigating an abduction"

which is ridiculous. The only known fact is "Disappearance"

retro:electro

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Scotland Yard was only tasked with investigating an abduction, this was the reason Colin Sutton refused to lead the investigation . The PJ is derided by many on here as being inept, they followed the abduction theory for 3 months but then turned their attention to the McCanns. Again though haven't you said you are convinced she was abducted and nothing will change your mind?

Don’t believe I’ve ever said the bolded bit. Care to show me where I did?

Plumbthedepths

retro:electro wrote:

Don’t believe I’ve ever said the bolded bit. Care to show me where I did?

I did say I was paraphrasing when I said it earlier. If I get a chance to tomorrow I'll have a look for your exact quote. Goodnight .

retro:electro

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I did say I was paraphrasing when I said it earlier. If I get a chance to tomorrow I'll have a look for your exact quote. Goodnight .

Yeah I never said it. But I do believe that is the third time today you have been asked to back up a claim and have been unable or declined.
Quite telling.
But alrighty.

gozunda

Something Else

maebee wrote: »

?
They declined help in finding their missing daughter? These are the people who launched a million dollar campaign to find their missing daughter

And employed some fairly dodgey strangers to do so ...

Necro

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

maebee wrote: »

The Social Worker offered to help them. They declined her help. Very very strange. If you believed your 4 year old daughter had just been abducted, you would listen to a British Social working specializing in children. They didn't want to hear from her. Very strange

Eh? In a missing person/abduction case?

What skills can the social worker bring to the table that the police would not have? Did she have detailed knowledge of child sex rings in Portugal perhaps?

Sorry for being facetious but her expertise in this case is about as useful as a turd sandwich.

maebee

Accident happened, parents hid body

Oh FFS, if your 4 year old daughter is missing, you would take all assistance offered.

gozunda

Something Else

Necro wrote: »

Can't really blame them tbh. A social worker is not an investigator, they're more likely to cause more hassle and distraction rather than letting them focus on finding their missing daughter.

Reading the files that were linked the other day of independent witnesses I'm as confident as I can be without any evidential proof that Madeline was likely abducted and the parents had nothing to do with tbh.

Their emotional reaction and insistence she was taken to me leads to the (unproven) fact that the kids were likely sedated, so they knew there was no possible way Madeline could just wander from the apartment and get lost.

Not directed at your comment particularly but just thinking would it alternatively be possible if she had been sedated by her parents and died as a result of that sedation - that her parents would also have had an similar emotional reaction. With the insistence being part of the fact that one or more of them could never reveal what had happened for fear of being charged with abandonment and or neglect and risk losing their other children and possibly their fitness to practice?

Trekker09

maebee wrote: »

Oh FFS, if your 4 year old daughter is missing, you would take all assistance offered.

....and if someone felt 'iffy' to you, to pushy etc, would you still engage with them?

Phoebas

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

maebee wrote: »

Oh FFS, if your 4 year old daughter is missing, you would take all assistance offered.

A stranger poking her nose in != assistance.

This woman later sent an anonymous letter to the Met about the case - I'd say the McCanns dodged a bullet.

In any case, the police don't seem to have taken her seriously:

Portuguese Police wrote:

The statements given to the PJ today by Yvonne Martin provide a concrete clarification of the reasons for her suspicions, which in my opinion, do not point to any concrete element that could, in any way, make other inquiries directly related to her statements, viable.

micks_address

Trekker09 wrote: »

maebee wrote: »

Oh FFS, if your 4 year old daughter is missing, you would take all assistance offered.

....and if someone felt 'iffy' to you, to pushy etc, would you still engage with them?

Yeah to be honest id probably suspect they were an undercover reporter or something

Phoebas

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

maebee wrote: »

"Scotland Yard was only tasked with investigating an abduction"

which is ridiculous. The only known fact is "Disappearance"

I'm not sure that's strictly true.

Operation Grange wrote:

Investigative review
The Met’s involvement, known as Operation Grange, is led by the Specialist Crime Command unit and involved, in the first instance, an ‘investigative review’. This was a review of all of the investigations that had been previously conducted into the circumstances of Madeleine McCann’s disappearance.

Ongoing investigation
In July 2013 the status of the Met’s enquiries changed to that of an investigation, working with the Portuguese authorities to pursue specific lines of enquiry.

The Portuguese authorities retain the lead and the Met continues to work in support of them.

gozunda

Something Else

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

She advised Kate not to speak to the media, good advice but as with advice of that nature it was ignored by the McCanns....

Strangely the penny appears to have recently dropped. Regarding the recent Netfix 'documentary' ....

On March 6, they posted a short statement on their website, FindMadeleine.com, saying that they’d been asked to participate by the production company, but that they’d failed to see how the series might aid their ongoing efforts to find their daughter. “Particularly,” the couple wrote, “given there is an active police investigation, [the show] could potentially hinder it.”

Took them a long time to figure that one out tbh

RollieFingers

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

maebee wrote: »

Oh FFS, if your 4 year old daughter is missing, you would take all assistance offered.

In fairness you would be very naive to start accepting advice from any and every random stranger offering to help.

Plumbthedepths

retro:electro wrote:

Yeah I never said it. But I do believe that is the third time today you have been asked to back up a claim and have been unable or declined. Quite telling. But alrighty.

#4392 as I said I paraphrased what you said.
Not sure what other claims you are referring to although one poster asked who I was referring to when I said several here see no wrong in the McCanns. I did tell that poster I was not naming anyone. That's the only claim I can think of. Not that any of it means anything tbh.

Plumbthedepths

RollieFingers wrote:

In fairness you would be very naive to start accepting advice from any and every random stranger offering to help.

A random stranger that identifies herself and produces her credentials? She advised Kate not to talk to the media that was sound advice. She as a compatriot was offering help in a country unfamiliar to the McCanns but where she was a part time resident.

retro:electro

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

#4392 as I said I paraphrased what you said.
Not sure what other claims you are referring to although one poster asked who I was referring to when I said several here see no wrong in the McCanns. I did tell that poster I was not naming anyone. That's the only claim I can think of. Not that any of it means anything tbh.

That’s not paraphrasing. That’s making something up entirely.
You can stop misconstruing what I said now.
But it’s grand. We’ll move on.

retro:electro

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

RollieFingers wrote: »

In fairness you would be very naive to start accepting advice from any and every random stranger offering to help.

Especially in the aftermath of what you believe was an abduction, you’d be suspicious of everyone never mind forceful strangers with no experience in the field who plonk down beside you while you’re in hysterics and ask inappropriate questions. Like I said before, if they had accepted her help they would be judged for that too. I believe she had to be told a few times to leave as well. And then there’s her “feeling” she thinks she saw David Payne before somewhere but can’t remember when or why or how.
She sounds like a total and utter numpty.

Plumbthedepths

retro:electro wrote:

That’s not paraphrasing. That’s making something up entirely. You can stop misconstruing what I said now. But it’s grand. We’ll move on.

'my views will never change' your words.
As you say we'll move on.

retro:electro

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

'my views will never change' your words.
As you say we'll move on.

Selectively quoting me there. What I said was:

just offering my views on the doc.My views will never change. In the absence of anything else, I’m as entitled to feel how I feel as you are.

My views on the doc will never change. I even made it easy for you when I said in the absence of anything else I’m entitled to feel as I like.

I never said nothing will change my mind like you claimed I did. If new evidence came to light that seriously implicated the McCanns of course I would. But based on what we have now, I believe she was abducted. I believe that was made perfectly clear in that post and indeed many earlier and subsequent ones.

Please stop misconstruing what i stated.

Happy to clear that up and happy to move on.

Plumbthedepths

retro:electro wrote:

Especially in the aftermath of what you believe was an abduction, you’d be suspicious of everyone never mind forceful strangers with no experience in the field who plonk down beside you while you’re in hysterics and ask inappropriate questions. Like I said before, if they had accepted her help they would be judged for that too. I believe she had to be told a few times to leave as well. And then there’s her “feeling†she thinks she saw David Payne before somewhere but can’t remember when or why or how. She sounds like a total and utter numpty.

If you have read the second link provided by Maebee in #5190 you will see Yvonne Martin is not as vague about David Payne as you are suggesting. It would also explain why Mr Payne would rather a child protection officer was brushed off as quickly as possible.

yourdeadwright

Accident happened, parents hid body

dave699 wrote: »

The body not been found is what gets me.
Surely means it was planned. Can't see anyone thinking clearly enough after an accident to get rid of a body in an area they don't know to well.

For me rules the family out. Don't see how they could have managed to get the body hid so well

The above is why a lot of people go for the bin theory as at the time it was tipped not a land fill, So the body would be long buried

If the theory is correct or not is one thing but its one place you would not find it unless the whole thing was dug up