Madeleine McCann

retro:electro

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

If you have read the second link provided by Maebee in #5190 you will see Yvonne Martin is not as vague about David Payne as you are suggesting. It would also explain why Mr Payne would rather a child protection officer was brushed off as quickly as possible.

I already read it. Are you talking about when she said this?

She adds that her hypothesis is that she may have come to know him professionally through work, potentially having been colleagues at work or have worked at the same place but she cannot be certain where she met him as she does not remember




Or this...:

But she also states that according to what she remembers, when she met with Madeleine's parents, David Payne, who was with them, was wearing a dark polo shirt, blue or black coloured, cream coloured long trousers, of linen or cotton, and dark shoes (sandal/slipper type without a back buckle/catch). In her opinion, this clothing matches perfectly with the clothing the Police described the man (carrying the child) to be wearing at the time.

Yes I’m sure David was just casually hanging about in the exact same clothes he wore when he was seen carrying Madeleine off into the distance. Show me a western man who doesn’t dress this way while on holidays. That would be a harder task.


Or this:

She declares that one of her main aims when she wrote the anonymous letter was for the British police to check the paedophile or child abusers registers and whether David Payne was on that list.

And this:

She clarifies that she is capable of making a photographic identification of the individual, and emphasises that with the identified photo it is possible to access the database of the British Police and ascertain whether the individual is related to any crimes involving children

Since David is still working as a doctor in the UK, I wonder how this went?

Like I said, a total and utter numpty.

Plumbthedepths

Your opinion. However you selectively pulled the bits out of the statement to back up your slur.
Btw I'm a western male and have along with my friends whom i've gone in holidays with never dressed in the manner of D Payne. Slightly silly generalisation tbh.

Boom_Bap

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Please for the love of whatever god you follow, stop talking about bathing the kids, one off hand comment last night led to the pedophile discussion again and resulted in incorrect people being named.


Can you perhaps see why I'm against this on the thread? It's all unsubstantiated claims that lead to more unsubstantiated claims that lead to frustration from everyone looking at the thread.

gozunda

Something Else

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

.... It would also explain why Mr Payne would rather a child protection officer was brushed off as quickly as possible.

Its odd then that Gerry and Kate were quite happy to use and accept the services offered by another stranger.

According to Stephen Carpenter (a TW holiday guest) who was also staying at the Ocean Club. He met Murat whilst helping with the search and introduced Robert Morat to Gerry who immediately took him up on his offer without any references or credentials.

In this role he helped the McCanns communicate with the police and vice versa.

We walked back along the path that I had taken to Gerry's apartment and I explained that Robert spoke Portuguese fluently, he told Gerry that it was important to have someone who spoke the language so that nothing would be lost in translation.. And that was how Robert Murat was presented as a translator.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN-CARPENTER.htm

Tbh though I reckon the Child protection officer had a lucky break not getting involved with the McCanns et al considering how members of the Tapas 9 turned on Murat and made various allegations which was influential to him being made an Arguido imo.

Plumbthedepths

gozunda wrote:

Its odd then that Gerry and Kate were quite happy to use and accept the services offered by another stranger.

Maybe it was the profession of the strangers that made Kate and Gerry reluctant to accept the person's help as opposed to the person themselves. Only conclusion I can come to.

yourdeadwright

Accident happened, parents hid body

Regardless of weather the McCanns did it or not surely it makes sense for Kate no to want to speak to a social worker,

Wouldn't it be a social worker who would decide if they where unfit parents ?
I'd imagine she was afraid of saying anything that could seen as neglect on her or Gerry part and lead to possibly not being seen fit to look after the twins ,

Personally I don't see how a social worker would help her situation but could make it worse as in seeing them as unfit paretns,

Again I'm not a fan of the McCann ( i think there involved) but i can see why she didn't speak to her,

Tomw86

Something Else

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Regardless of weather the McCanns did it or not surely it makes sense for Kate no to want to speak to a social worker,

Wouldn't it be a social worker who would decide if they where unfit parents ?
I'd imagine she was afraid of saying anything that could seen as neglect on her or Gerry part and lead to possibly not being seen fit to look after the twins ,

Personally I don't see how a social worker would help her situation but could make it worse as in seeing them as unfit paretns,

Again I'm not a fan of the McCann ( i think there involved) but i can see why she didn't speak to her,

I agree with this.

I can't see how speaking to a Social Worker would help them in any way at all.

Not a fan and think they were involved - don't understand the not talking to police and certain other aspects, but I would think this made sense.

chicorytip

Something Else

Plumbthedepths wrote:

If someone spoke to me about my 4 year old child in a sexualised manner, I'd be going away but not on holidays. That fact Gerry seemed to be ok with the conversation is disturbing to say the least.

It's not clear from Gaspars account that what McCann and Payne were talking about was in fact what she thought it was. She gave the impression of not having heard or listened carefully to the entire conversation so may have jumped to an erroneous conclusion. If you watch the Richard Hall analysis, which is extremely detailed and thorough, he more or less glosses over this incident and attatches no real significance to it. If the child was being sexually abused it would be unlikely the perpetrators would relate the graphic details of the abuse to others whilst sitting around the dinner table.

yourdeadwright

Accident happened, parents hid body

Tomw86 wrote: »

I agree with this.

I can't see how speaking to a Social Worker would help them in any way at all.

Not a fan and think they were involved - don't understand the not talking to police and certain other aspects, but I would think this made sense.

I think the same as your self but it also makes no sense to make out everything they do is some kind of cover up

I don't think anyone would want to speak to a social worker at that time when your child has gone missing because you where not taking care of them .

Common sense to blank them

gozunda

Something Else

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Regardless of weather the McCanns did it or not surely it makes sense for Kate no to want to speak to a social worker,

Wouldn't it be a social worker who would decide if they where unfit parents ?
I'd imagine she was afraid of saying anything that could seen as neglect on her or Gerry part and lead to possibly not being seen fit to look after the twins ,

Personally I don't see how a social worker would help her situation but could make it worse as in seeing them as unfit paretns,

Again I'm not a fan of the McCann ( i think there involved) but i can see why she didn't speak to her,

Tbh I think this is the crux of the issue. It's not that this person was a "stranger' rather the McCanns knew that by leaving very young children unsupervised in an apartment would likley be viewed poorly and may have had legal implications if pursued.

The child protection officer therefore was not going to be welcomed by them to help even though she had credentials etc and offered good advice on not speaking to the press etc.

weldoninhio

Something Else

SusieBlue wrote: »

What relevance does whether I have children or not have?

No one has disputed that leaving them alone at night was wrong.

She was in kids club from 3:30pm-5:30pm ish on the day she went missing, which by all accounts is not all day.
There is nothing wrong with utilising kids clubs, they are good for socialisation of children and many many parents use them.

In all the footage from the aftermath I see two broken people, Kate in particular looks like she's on the verge of collapsing.
In the footage from beforehand, the home videos, they look like a normal, happy family.

You see differently, that's fine, that's your perspective & I respect that, but you can't tell me I'm wrong.

Except when she was out jogging, having meals and brandy with Freud and leaving the twins to go on a European tour.

SusieBlue

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

weldoninhio wrote: »

Except when she was out jogging, having meals and brandy with Freud and leaving the twins to go on a European tour.

No, I was talking about specifically the press conferences where they were appealing for information. In my opinion, she looks absolutely distraught, devastated, and on the brink of an emotional breakdown.

But don't let me stop you, that was an excellent contribution to the thread. Let it all out. Don't hold back.

tretorn

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

I cant imagine what the twins think of what their parents did, they must be almost teenagers now.

To think that all three children could have been taken and two are safe because for someone reason Madeleine was the one chosen.

iamwhoiam

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Some people we warm to and some people irritate us from the moment we meet them . Maybe the social worker was an irritating busybody . If someone busybodyed around me in a moment of high stress I too would brush them aside
Some people do my head in within minutes of meeting them

yourdeadwright

Accident happened, parents hid body

weldoninhio wrote: »

Except when she was out jogging, having meals and brandy with Freud and leaving the twins to go on a European tour.

I never get people who make an argument they where innocent because they looked broken , of course they did ,,
No matter what happened , there child was taken, Murdered or killed by accident , they would be broken for different reason ,

It crazy to think one day you can be a family no one is bothered with bar friends and family and the next your all over the world papers being spoken about for years and judged on everything you say and do,


Its a crazy world ,

Phoebas

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

weldoninhio wrote: »

Except when she was out jogging, having meals and brandy with Freud and leaving the twins to go on a European tour.

Is there any limit to how crass you can be?

Something Else

The Matthew Oldfield check is very interesting.
Did it really happen?
How exactly did it come about? Did he volunteer? Was he roped into it a bit?

If the McCanns are guilty, there is no way they would allow him to check if there was something to hide. However, it’s possible that they might have wanted him to find Maddie missing. I mean, it would look better on them if somebody else had raised the alarm while they were sitting at the table,

Unfortunately, Matthew couldn’t recall if the window was open or if he had even seen Maddie.

If the parents are guilty of something, you’d have to assume the McCanns knew that Matthew would probably find her missing.

His statements also make it hard to understand how an abduction happened. He listened in at all the apartments around 9pm. Gerry does a check at 09:05ish and spends some time after talking to Jez, Jane is on the street around 9:10ish, Matthew is back for his check at around 09:30.

Any abductor watching would surely be thinking this is not a good opportunity.

Matthew also states the checks were every 15 mins or so.

Baffling case really.

Boom_Bap

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Phoebas wrote: »

Is there any limit to how crass you can be?

no need to make things personal

OwlsZat

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

This is why I have no doubt in my mind that Madeline McCann was abducted by a pedophile gang. With all the investigations there is simply explanation or alibi whatsoever for these people.

Denise Beryl Ashton wrote:

She clarifies that on the 3rd of May 2007, at around 17H00/17H15, when she was in her PdL residence, and whilst her husband sleeping, she heard someone ring the doorbell. She immediately headed to the door, opened it and saw two individuals (one standing behind the other as in a queue). She also noticed that one of them had a folder, with a rigid top, that, she presumes, was a type of identification? or an access card. She did not see what it said.

The man in front said a few words in Portuguese to which the witness responded that she did not understand. That same person began speaking in English, not fluently, nor very correctly, and she presumed he was not a British citizen. Now speaking in English, without offering his name, he told her that each year he was authorised to collect donations on behalf of an orphanage. At the same time, he handed her a brochure, on printed paper, which he later took back, as we will see later. Upon explaining that he asking on behalf of an orphanage, the individual asked the witness if she knew where Espiche was. She assumed that the orphanage was in this location.

Immediately afterwards, the individual asked his colleague for a photograph album, with a blue cover, which was exhibited to the witness, and which contained photographs of children. Since she did not have her glasses on however, she cannot be sure about this. He explained then that he could provide her with a receipt, and showed her a book, and alleged that he had been in her neighbours house. That was not true as she knew no one was home next door.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DENISE_ASHTON.htm

Rex Morgan wrote:

The first person walked towards me and introduced himself. I do not recall his name however he did show me an identification card on which was a picture of him. I did notice that the picture showed with a moustache, but that he did not have one. He did in fact point this out to me as well.

He then went on to explain his purpose for being there. He said that he was collecting money so that he could help to get young boys of the street and keep young girls away from prostitution. He showed me a (Page 2) portfolio with pictures of a hospice where these young people are housed. I do not recall where this hospice is located. He asked for a contribution and I gave him 10 Euros. He did provide me with a receipt.

I did not take much notice of their appearance as I did not feel threatened by them. I thought them to be genuine. I only became concerned when i heard that little Madeleine McCann had gone missing later that day.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/REX-MORGAN.htm

Johnathan Stanley Cooper wrote:

A few hours later that evening Gail and I had a quiet moment together. She said to me "A funny thing happened today while you were out some strange man came to the door wafting paper about saying he was collecting for an orphanage in the town of Espiage".

She told me it unnerved her abit. She then said "He told her there was a car crash on the EN125 where a british couple (Page Two) were killed leaving 3 children. It occurred a couple of days before we arrived. I cannot recall much about the conversation however she went on to say he spoke English but his accent wasn't Portuguese. She told him she had no money and that her husband was coming back.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GAIL_COOPER.htm#jc4016

OwlsZat

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Having followed the case at the time, the documentary more recently and most recently read everything there is to read I want to explain what I think happened.

1. Kate McCann suffered from General Anxiety Disorder. Her relationship with Gerry as a result was chaotic and dysfunctional. They were rowing and the kids suffered. They were neglected. It's this that makes them look guilty. They are guilty of negligence but nothing more.

2. I believe the anonymous tip off which was given stating the child was ordered by a Pedophile gang in Belgium. Because shortly before the abduction the McCann residence in OH was teeming with "shady characters". People in the alley looking in from the balcony, parked van watching, odd strangers on the property of the hotel, and most importantly a number milling around the vicinity posing as charity collectors (also known as spotters). I believe it was a team effort to lift the child. They knew where she was and that she was left unattended.

3. The white transit van is involved in the abduction. It's directly outside the property. Then it appears through 3 or 4 different statements and sightings. It's the obviously getaway vehicle.

4. A blonde (french speaking) female is involved with the abduction. The one reported to have her with the older individual in Monforte-Ermesinde. I believe she is the same woman reported from Amsterdam by Anna. The woman is important as the whole thing will look far more believable if Madiline is with a woman.

5. No idea after that. Alive, dead, likely owned by a group of wealthy pedos. Likely long forgotten who she is. Does she get out or did the dispose of her years ago, who knows.

It's frightening that the "investigation" didn't do better but it didn't. There is tones of leads and repeated commonalities they should have picked up. They were slow to react and quick to pin it on anyone they could as the Robert Murat stuff demonstrates. They acted out the same plot as the Rui Pedro case and really the police are probably the main reason that the case will likely never be solved.

Saying that I'm still hopeful that either she is recognized as an adult God knows where or when or that someone involved gives up information with authorities in exchange for leniency for another crime. I mean surely at least one of the "charity collectors" could be identified and picked up.

What a shambolic police effort that that was never the case.

Plumbthedepths

OwlsZat wrote:

This is why I have no doubt in my mind that Madeline McCann was abducted by a pedophile gang. With all the investigations there is simply explanation or alibi whatsoever for these people.

Yet neither the PJ or Scotland could find evidence of this gang.

Plumbthedepths

OwlsZat wrote:

. I believe she is the same woman reported from Amsterdam by Anna. The woman is important as the whole thing will look far more believable if Madiline is with a woman.

The same Anna with the photographic memory who saw Madeline's eye colour but not her eye defect. The same Madeline who called herself 'Maddie' to Anna but yet according to Kate, Madeline always corrected people who called her 'Maddie'. Anna got her few minutes of fame but not credible tbh

OwlsZat

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Yet neither the PJ or Scotland could find evidence of this gang.

I think you've chosen the wrong word as the witness statements are all the strongest evidence possible. I hope your criticising the police effort rather than questioning three independent statements.

Plumbthedepths

OwlsZat wrote:

I think you've chosen the wrong word as the witness statements are all the strongest evidence possible. I hope your criticising the police effort rather than questioning three independent statements.

The witness statements count for next to nothing, do you think Scotland Yard made no attempt to follow up on these accounts as they were tasked to investigate an abduction nothing else according to Colin Sutton.

OwlsZat

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

The witness statements count for next to nothing, do you think Scotland Yard made no attempt to follow up on these accounts as they were tasked to investigate an abduction nothing else according to Colin Sutton.

When they followup and its miles too late. What exactly do you expect them to find? Their full statements have already been given.

All the statements should have been taken immediately. Efits should have been made and vechicle details and efits circulated. Border patrol notified, roads in / out locked down, compulsory spot checks added. The police were too busy trying to make up a story to frame Robert Murat... or hiding in the car from rain smoking in their cars.

This kinda investigation is time critical. In this case they were asleep at the wheel when it was most important. At the very start.

cnocbui

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

The witness statements count for next to nothing, do you think Scotland Yard made no attempt to follow up on these accounts as they were tasked to investigate an abduction nothing else according to Colin Sutton.

You must have mentioned this ten times by now.

Scotland yard ruled out investigating the McCanns because they had reviewed the PJ investigation and had concluded they had covered that angle comprehensively to the point where they considered any further effort to likely be a waste of time. To pursue an investigation targeting the McCanns you would need hard forensic evidence - which the UK police simply can't do as any such evidence would be in Portugal and they have no legal authority to operate there, just as the PJ can't come to Ireland and do crime scene investigations where they collect forensic evidence and interview witnesses etc - only the Guards have the legal mandate to act in that way. If the Met wanted to do anything concrete in PDL, they would have ask the PJ to do it for them.

Were they to attempt such a thing, the PJ and Portugal would be incensed at the blatant arrogance and the suggestion that they hadn't done an adequate and thorough job of it themselves. The Met and the UK would have been told not to bother - though not that politely.

You seem to be implying that Sutton as an individual is somehow superior to the Met as a whole, who would know far more about the case than Sutton, since he was never in the loop and never had access to the material the Met have nor spent as much time analysing it.

Plumbthedepths

OwlsZat wrote:

The police were too busy trying to make up a story to frame Robert Murat... or hiding in the car from rain smoking in their cars.

I think you'll find the McCanns and their friends had a hand in this.

Plumbthedepths

cnocbui wrote:

You must have mentioned this ten times by now.

I don't think it is ten times, but unless it's an issue with the moderator I don't see why it's an issue for you.

cnocbui wrote:

You seem to be implying that Sutton as an individual is somehow superior to the Met as a whole, who would know far more about the case than Sutton, since he was never in the loop and never had access to the material the Met have nor spent as much time analysing it.

I'm not implying that at all and somewhat amused as to your agenda here. The Met asked Sutton to lead the investigation but told him the line of enquiry, how do you start an investigation by hamstringing the investigator. Sutton was rang by a senior colleague telling him if the constraints. You're suggesting a senior officer as Sutton was at the time would not be privy to any of the material? The single most famous alledged child abduction case of the last 30 years.Sorry can't take anything you say serious after that.

OwlsZat

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I think you'll find the McCanns and their friends had a hand in this.

That's for you disagreement while providing no counter argument or debate on any of the points made.

OwlsZat

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

The same Anna with the photographic memory who saw Madeline's eye colour but not her eye defect. The same Madeline who called herself 'Maddie' to Anna but yet according to Kate, Madeline always corrected people who called her 'Maddie'. Anna got her few minutes of fame but not credible tbh

There's 3 possibly 4 other sightings of the blonde haired woman.

It's your choice to decide however you feel. I've outlined clearly why I conclude what I do. Please to do the same.

Plumbthedepths

OwlsZat wrote:

That's for you disagreement while providing no counter argument or debate on any of the points made.

You stated statements should have been taking immediately, road blocks, close borders. When did these individuals go to the police about the bogus collector's before or after Madeline disappeared. If it was after what difference would it have made? When did Murat become a suspect, your timeline is all over the place tbh.

Plumbthedepths

OwlsZat wrote:

It's your choice to decide however you feel. I've outlined clearly why I conclude what I do. Please to do the same.

Already did, you claimed several pages back that the sighting in Amsterdam was the most significant. I showed you why it wasn't. You even expressed disbelief when it was pointed out that Kate said Madeline always corrected people who called her Maddie.

OwlsZat

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

You stated statements should have been taking immediately, road blocks, close borders. When did these individuals go to the police about the bogus collector's before or after Madeline disappeared. If it was after what difference would it have made? When did Murat become a suspect, your timeline is all over the place tbh.

I didn't present a timeline. I stated the police investigation was a shambles. Considering they sacked their own lead I'd say that's obvious. They also made two people official suspects. The first who definitely did not do it. They wasted their time and resources trying to frame people I believe who didn't do it. It clearly shows they were compromised in trying to get someone quickly.

OwlsZat

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Already did, you claimed several pages back that the sighting in Amsterdam was the most significant. I showed you why it wasn't. You even expressed disbelief when it was pointed out that Kate said Madeline always corrected people who called her Maddie.

I said it was one of the few sightings that wasn't discredited, making it significant. Without getting a statement from Anna herself or going through what she did and didn't see. I wouldn't be able in good faith to determine the accuracy of her statement. I presented to you the theory on what I think happened based on all the evidence. If you don't like it go ahead and do you own.

Plumbthedepths

OwlsZat wrote:

I didn't present a timeline. I stated the police investigation was a shambles. Considering they sacked their own lead I'd say that's obvious. They also made two people official suspects. The first who definitely did not do it. They wasted their time and resources. Trying to frame people I believe who didn't do it.

But you mentioned the independent witnesses, when did they go to the police? When did Murat become a suspect? Police forces do not operate on the basis of abduction in the first few hours of a disappearance just because that's what the parents claim happened.

Plumbthedepths

OwlsZat wrote:

I said it was one of the few sightings that wasn't discredited, making it significant. Without getting a statement from Anna herself or going through what she did and didn't see. I wouldn't be able in good faith to determine the accuracy of her statement. I presented to you the theory on what I think happened based on all the evidence. If you don't like it go ahead and do you own.

But they did get a statement. You linked an article that contained it. The Mirror newspaper flew her to the UK to talk to a police artist. She mentioned Madeline's eye colour but no mention of the eye defect. She did claim to have a photographic memory surprised she missed the eye . She claimed Madeline referred to herself as Maddie , not true according to Madeline's mother.
I already did my own, she wasn't abducted that's my position.

OwlsZat

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

But they did get a statement. You linked an article that contained it. The Mirror newspaper flew her to the UK to talk to a police artist. She mentioned Madeline's eye colour but no mention of the eye defect. She did claim to have a photographic memory surprised she missed the eye . She claimed Madeline referred to herself as Maddie , not true according to Madeline's mother. I already did my own, she wasn't abducted that's my position.

The eye defect is unusual but I know that if I met someone who I thought I recognized I'd fine it hard to recall even the color or their eyes. Let alone if there were any defect present. Maybe quote your own so I don't have to go through 350pages and have a look.

Have you an explanation for the charity collectors, the man with dreds and military jacket, the near miss of the abduction of the other girl or the main with the glasses on the McCann balcony, or the ford transit parked opposite their apartment which was gone in the morning?

retro:electro

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

The witness statements count for next to nothing.

It’s interesting how selective you are in what witness statements you choose to dismiss, since you seem to put a lot of faith Mrs Martin’s apparent recollection of David Payne despite her insistence she has no idea where she remembers him from. Interesting. And I know you will reply to this post with some kind of hodgepodge counter-argument but let it be known I have absolutely zero interest in responding to you. Your clear selective bias in what you choose to believe and ignore as well as a selective bias in what theories you choose to debunk have informed me that your posts are not worthy of engaging with from here on in.

Plumbthedepths

OwlsZat wrote:

The eye defect is unusual but I know that if I met someone who I thought I recognized I'd fine it hard to recall even the color or their eyes. Let alone if there were any defect present. Maybe quote your own so I don't have to go through 350pages and have a look.

But we are not talking about your memory so what you would or wouldn't remember from an encounter is irrelevant. I'm referring to the article you linked from the Mirror surely you remember because you said how significant it was. Anna claimed to have a photographic memory she said Madeline stood in front of her and referred to herself as Madeline. Not only I but one or two other posters told you that she according to Kate always corrected anyone who called her Maddie so makes zero sense as to why she would refer to herself as Maddie.

OwlsZat wrote:

Have you an explanation for the charity collectors, the man with dreds and military jacket, the near miss of the abduction of the other girl or the main with the glasses on the McCann balcony, or the ford transit parked opposite their apartment which was gone in the morning?

None whatsoever and since the police both the PJ and Met have said little to nothing about them I think are but a footnote. You still though didn't say when the witnesses went it the police about them, was it before or after Madeline's disappearance. It is actually important to the rest of your claim about wasting time/ resources etc.

OwlsZat

Something Else

OwlsZat wrote: »

Having followed the case at the time, the documentary more recently and most recently read everything there is to read I want to explain what I think happened.

1. Kate McCann suffered from General Anxiety Disorder. Her relationship with Gerry as a result was chaotic and dysfunctional. They were rowing and the kids suffered. They were neglected. It's this that makes them look guilty. They are guilty of negligence but nothing more.

2. I believe the anonymous tip off which was given stating the child was ordered by a Pedophile gang in Belgium. Because shortly before the abduction the McCann residence in OH was teeming with "shady characters". People in the alley looking in from the balcony, parked van watching, odd strangers on the property of the hotel, and most importantly a number milling around the vicinity posing as charity collectors (also known as spotters). I believe it was a team effort to lift the child. They knew where she was and that she was left unattended.

3. The white transit van is involved in the abduction. It's directly outside the property. Then it appears through 3 or 4 different statements and sightings. It's the obviously getaway vehicle.

4. A blonde (french speaking) female is involved with the abduction. The one reported to have her with the older individual in Monforte-Ermesinde. I believe she is the same woman reported from Amsterdam by Anna. The woman is important as the whole thing will look far more believable if Madiline is with a woman.

5. No idea after that. Alive, dead, likely owned by a group of wealthy pedos. Likely long forgotten who she is. Does she get out or did the dispose of her years ago, who knows.

It's frightening that the "investigation" didn't do better but it didn't. There is tones of leads and repeated commonalities they should have picked up. They were slow to react and quick to pin it on anyone they could as the Robert Murat stuff demonstrates. They acted out the same plot as the Rui Pedro case and really the police are probably the main reason that the case will likely never be solved.

Saying that I'm still hopeful that either she is recognized as an adult God knows where or when or that someone involved gives up information with authorities in exchange for leniency for another crime. I mean surely at least one of the "charity collectors" could be identified and picked up.

What a shambolic police effort that that was never the case.

The PJ themselves would tell you that the case was a shambles. The crime scene was destroyed by people looking for the girl before police were even called. The statements made no sense and raised more questions than answers. Interference from the UK police was frustrating. UK police withheld much information from the PJ for months if they provided it at all.
The McCanns ran to the media and started a media circus.

All of those were not ideal.

Plumbthedepths

retro:electro wrote:

It’s interesting how selective you are in what witness statements you chose to dismiss, since you seem to put a lot of faith Mrs Martin’s apparent recollection of David Payne despite her insistence she has no idea where she remembers him from. Interesting. And I know you will reply to this post with some kind of hodgepodge counter-argument but let it be known I have absolutely zero interest in responding to you. Your clear selective bias in what you chose to believe and ignore as well as a selective bias in what theories you chose to debunk have informed me that your posts are not worthy of engaging with from here on in.

Can't say that I care what you think or why you feel it's necessary to be so personal, it is a discussion forum after all. Maybe you are a little too invested in it prehaps?but I'm sure your rant will garner a few thanks from the usual suspects.

OwlsZat

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

None whatsoever and since the police both the PJ and Met have said little to nothing about them I think are but a footnote. You still though didn't say when the witnesses went it the police about them, was it before or after Madeline's disappearance. It is actually important to the rest of your claim about wasting time/ resources etc.

They arent a footnote. They are the biggest giveaway that this was organised crime. What could they say when they don't know anything of them. Just look at the crowd up north digging out ATM machines. How have they not been caught yet you'd really wonder. Clearly they are well organised.

Ignoring them is as daft as focusing in on the name a woman in Amsterdam recalled the child called herself. Leave Anna out of it or indeed the French speaking blonde woman if you must. It make no difference to the theory.

gozunda

Something Else

cnocbui wrote: »

You must have mentioned this ten times by now.

Scotland yard ruled out investigating the McCanns because they had reviewed the PJ investigation and had concluded they had covered that angle comprehensively to the point where they considered any further effort to likely be a waste of time. To pursue an investigation targeting the McCanns you would need hard forensic evidence - which the UK police simply can't do as any such evidence would be in Portugal and they have no legal authority to operate there, just as the PJ can't come to Ireland and do crime scene investigations where they collect forensic evidence and interview witnesses etc - only the Guards have the legal mandate to act in that way. If the Met wanted to do anything concrete in PDL, they would have ask the PJ to do it for them.

Were they to attempt such a thing, the PJ and Portugal would be incensed at the blatant arrogance and the suggestion that they hadn't done an adequate and thorough job of it themselves. The Met and the UK would have been told not to bother - though not that politely.

You seem to be implying that Sutton as an individual is somehow superior to the Met as a whole, who would know far more about the case than Sutton, since he was never in the loop and never had access to the material the Met have nor spent as much time analysing it.

I'd no idea there is a wordometer in operation

Just a quick one - do you have a source for that from the official files. Thanks

Plumbthedepths

OwlsZat wrote:

They arent a footnote. They are the biggest giveaway that this was organised crime. What could they say when they don't know anything of them. Just look at the crowd up north digging out ATM machines. How have they not been caught yet you'd really wonder. Clearly they are well organised.

But they are, amazing how you know there was an organised crime gang but neither the Met or PJ know about them. I can only suggest you go to the authorities and offer your services.

Boom_Bap

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

But they are, amazing how you know there was an organised crime gang but neither the Met or PJ know about them. I can only suggest you go to the authorities and offer your services.

Right, I for one have had enough of these snarky comments.

Please don't post in the thread again

OwlsZat

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

But they are, amazing how you know there was an organised crime gang but neither the Met or PJ know about them. I can only suggest you go to the authorities and offer your services.

The PJ know about them because they have three independent witness statement about them in their files. You can be well sure they spent resources trying to understand them better.

To the best of my knowledge their is no Met reports available online so the point is redundant.

Abba987

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

You'd be ok with another man talking abiut your 4 year old daughter in a sexualised manner?

Did i miss something ? I havnt heard of some one talking about her like that. Payne?

yourdeadwright

Accident happened, parents hid body

Abba987 wrote: »

Did i miss something ? I havnt heard of some one talking about her like that. Payne?

Look into
The Gaspar Family Statements

Abba987

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Look into
The Gaspar Family Statements

Will do thanks

Lady Poepoe

chicorytip wrote: »

If you watch the Richard Hall analysis, which is extremely detailed and thorough, he more or less glosses over this incident and attatches no real significance to it.

I think Richard D Hall asked a statment analyst about it.
https://youtu.be/uS6ucYudNAo time stamp is 1:57:34