Madeleine McCann

limnam

Rock77 wrote: »

You have said he was cleared, but you have never said the parents were cleared, why is this?

I'm not sure the Portuguese police did clear them.



If the suspect status had to be lifted based on the amount of time after fleeing the country etc


Happy for you to clear it up though

limnam

dark crystal wrote: »

:pac::pac:

Do you have other evidence you want to bring how he's connected?


All ears

dark crystal

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

limnam wrote: »

So everything we do know is. He was cleared. Van was cleared. Some drunk guy said X


Based on what we know publicly. Nothing to see here.

limnam wrote: »

Do you have other evidence you want to bring how he's connected?


All ears

Nope, that's up to the police. Just pointing out how 'open minded' you are is all

the_pen_turner

Something Else

limnam wrote: »

I'm not sure the Portuguese police did clear them.



If the suspect status had to be lifted based on the amount of time after fleeing the country etc


Happy for you to clear it up though

as of right now they are still suspects. its only in the last week or so that another suspect has entered the scene (publically at least)

limnam

dark crystal wrote: »

Nope, that's up to the police. Just pointing out how 'open minded' you are is all

100%

limnam

the_pen_turner wrote: »

as of right now they are still suspects. its only in the last week or so that another suspect has entered the scene (publically at least)

Oh OK. So They're as much suspects as Mr. B


Interesting

dark crystal

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

limnam wrote: »

I'm not sure the Portuguese police did clear them.



If the suspect status had to be lifted based on the amount of time after fleeing the country etc


Happy for you to clear it up though

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/jul/21/madeleinemccann.internationalcrime

From Wikipedia:

"On 21 July 2008 the Portuguese Attorney General, Fernando José Pinto Monteiro, announced that there was no evidence to link the McCanns or Robert Murat to the disappearance. Their arguido status was lifted and the case was closed.[7][8] On 4 August Portugal's Ministério Público released 17 case files containing 11,233 pages on CD-ROM to the media, including 2,550 pages of sightings.[190][f] The files included a 58-page prosecutors' report, which concluded: "No element of proof whatsoever was found which allows us to form any lucid, sensible, serious and honest conclusion about the circumstances."

dark crystal

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

the_pen_turner wrote: »

as of right now they are still suspects. its only in the last week or so that another suspect has entered the scene (publically at least)

Sorry, what?

By whom?

the_pen_turner

Something Else

dark crystal wrote: »

Sorry, what?

By whom?

they have to be suspects in any investigation.
why wouldnt they . all their behaviour and suspicious actions make them suspects.

the_pen_turner

Something Else

limnam wrote: »

Oh OK. So They're as much suspects as Mr. B


Interesting

there is a lot of circumstansial things about him but he has to be a suspect. doesnt make him guilty . nor does it make the eparents

limnam

I suppose her refusing to co-operate as a suspect and fleeing the country made it difficult

dark crystal

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

the_pen_turner wrote: »

they have to be suspects in any investigation.
why wouldnt they . all their behaviour and suspicious actions make them suspects.

They are not named suspects in any ongoing investigation. This is pretty basic stuff you can google.

They're suspects to you perhaps, but that doesn't make them suspects in the eyes of the law. It would be helpful not to spread such disinformation.

dark crystal

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

limnam wrote: »

I suppose her refusing to co-operate as a suspect and fleeing the country made it difficult

Or, you know, no evidence to charge them with anything, as quoted in my post on the last page.

You're big on evidence, right?

the_pen_turner

Something Else

dark crystal wrote: »

They are not named suspects in any ongoing investigation. This is pretty basic stuff you can google.

They're suspects to you perhaps, but that doesn't make them suspects in the eyes of the law. It would be helpful not to spread such disinformation.

not being named doesnt mean they are not suspects. did the german team anounce this new guy when they first started looking into him

limnam

dark crystal wrote: »

Or, you know, no evidence to charge them with anything, as quoted in my post on the last page.

You're big on evidence, right?

Just sayin'


Her refusing to co-operate as a suspect and fleeing the country would have made it difficult.

limnam

the_pen_turner wrote: »

not being named doesnt mean they are not suspects. did the german team anounce this new guy when they first started looking into him

2012 he was past on to the Brits


Didn't hear a dickey bird

Rock77

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

limnam wrote: »

I'm not sure the Portuguese police did clear them.



If the suspect status had to be lifted based on the amount of time after fleeing the country etc


Happy for you to clear it up though

I didn’t know if they were suspects or not, my point was at one stage the German was a suspect and you clearly stated he was cleared, how do you know he was cleared? He’s certainly not cleared now

The parents were suspects a long time ago and were cleared (going by the above post) but you fail to acknowledge this.

SusieBlue

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Rock77 wrote: »

I didn’t know if they were suspects or not, my point was at one stage the German was a suspect and you clearly stated he was cleared, how do you know he was cleared? He’s certainly not cleared now

The parents were suspects a long time ago and were cleared (going by the above post) but you fail to acknowledge this.

Double standards all round. The German is irrelevant and a red herring cause he was cleared years ago, but the parents are still suspicious even though they were also cleared years ago.
You couldn’t make it up.

limnam

limnam wrote: »

Just sayin'


Her refusing to co-operate as a suspect and fleeing the country would have made it difficult.

Going home is not fleeing the country

SusieBlue

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

limnam wrote: »

Just sayin'


Her refusing to co-operate as a suspect and fleeing the country would have made it difficult.

She was legally advised not to answer the questions as she had already previously answered them several times over.
They left Portugal in September, over 4 months after Madeleine went missing. That isn’t fleeing the country.

limnam

Rock77 wrote: »

I didn’t know if they were suspects or not, my point was at one stage the German was a suspect and you clearly stated he was cleared, how do you know he was cleared? He’s certainly not cleared now

The parents were suspects a long time ago and were cleared (going by the above post) but you fail to acknowledge this.

Not failing to acknowledge anything.


I don't see what talking about them been cleared or not in a discussion on a _different_ suspect has to do with anything

thecomedian

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

the_pen_turner wrote: »

as of right now they are still suspects. its only in the last week or so that another suspect has entered the scene (publically at least)

So this post is BS?

dark crystal

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

thecomedian wrote: »

So this post is BS?

Yes.

Rock77

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

limnam wrote: »

Not failing to acknowledge anything.


I don't see what talking about them been cleared or not in a discussion on a _different_ suspect has to do with anything

It’s to do with you implicating the parents repeatedly even though they were cleared years ago then dismissing the German pedophile straight away because he was cleared years ago... cut the bull, you know exactly what your doing.

Look everyone is entitled to their opinion and some people (like yourself) lean to the side of ‘the parents did it’ and that’s fine you can look at all the evidence and make up your own mind but you can’t come on here where people share opinions and have a totally one sided view, only give half stories to suit your opinion and expect not to be called out.

Fled the country/went home after 4 months

Refused to co operate as a suspect/ co operated fully until she was accused

A few things the parents did don’t sit right with you, fair enough but you are not open minded to the possibility that they didn’t do it.

the_pen_turner

Something Else

thecomedian wrote: »

So this post is BS?

whats bs about it.
up until last week there were no other suspects only the parents. they havnt been ruled out and a lot of aspect of this make them very suspicious

thecomedian

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

the_pen_turner wrote: »

whats bs about it.
up until last week there were no other suspects only the parents. they havnt been ruled out and a lot of aspect of this make them very suspicious

Are you serious?
Dark Crystal just posted this


https://www.theguardia...n.internationalcrime

From Wikipedia:

"On 21 July 2008 the Portuguese Attorney General, Fernando José Pinto Monteiro, announced that there was no evidence to link the McCanns or Robert Murat to the disappearance. Their arguido status was lifted and the case was closed.[7][8] On 4 August Portugal's Ministério Público released 17 case files containing 11,233 pages on CD-ROM to the media, including 2,550 pages of sightings.[190][f] The files included a 58-page prosecutors' report, which concluded: "No element of proof whatsoever was found which allows us to form any lucid, sensible, serious and honest conclusion about the circumstances."


They were cleared in 2008!!

So your previous post was BS

cgcsb

Something Else

If the German did do it, then I guess we'll never find out what happened. They've no body and no forensic evidence (they'd have charged him years ago if maddie's DNA was in the camper or the car). They're sending out phone numbers trying to get a contact to rat him out or provoke a confession. Police saying they're 'very close' publicly is very often a gas lighting exercise.

As for my personal opinion on if he done it or not, to be honest I don't think so. Whoever took Maddie (assuming she was kidnapped, which Scotland Yard seem to have assumed) was taken by a very sophisticated operation, leaving not a trace and avoiding a continent wide search surely more than one person involved. A guy who shows someone a video of himself committing a crime to someone in public is probably not the sort of chap who could pull it off.

cnocbui

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

I believe a DM article quoted him mentioning pigs eating flesh.

limnam

cgcsb wrote: »

If the German did do it, then I guess we'll never find out what happened. They've no body and no forensic evidence (they'd have charged him years ago if maddie's DNA was in the camper or the car). They're sending out phone numbers trying to get a contact to rat him out or provoke a confession. Police saying they're 'very close' publicly is very often a gas lighting exercise.

As for my personal opinion on if he done it or not, to be honest I don't think so. Whoever took Maddie (assuming she was kidnapped, which Scotland Yard seem to have assumed) was taken by a very sophisticated operation, leaving not a trace and avoiding a continent wide search surely more than one person involved. A guy who shows someone a video of himself committing a crime to someone in public is probably not the sort of chap who could pull it off.

Which also makes the ad-hoc robbery turn kidnapping non-nonsensical



Everything is too clean

the_pen_turner

Something Else

limnam wrote: »

Which also makes the ad-hoc robbery turn kidnapping non-nonsensical



Everything is too clean

i dont buy the robbery turned abduction.
as you say its too clean. if it was a spur of the moment thing you would hope there would be some tail or something

Rock77

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

limnam wrote: »

Which also makes the ad-hoc robbery turn kidnapping non-nonsensical



Everything is too clean

I also agree with this, how is there no evidence at the scene. Whoever did this knew what they were doing

the_pen_turner

Something Else

as the saying goes you need to be lucky all the time to get away with it but i only need to be lucky once to catch you

either the spontanios abducter was lucky at every turn and continues to be and the policy were the oposite i dont think its likely.

a well planned raid seems ore logical

cgcsb

Something Else

Also remember a private eye from Spain scowered the dark web in search of maddie, exposing a number of other peadophiles in the process and getting evidence that lead to solving other missing child cases. Not one peado ring in Europe had a breeze where maddie was. The chap sharing videos on his smart phone would have been surely identified at that stage if he was guilty.

One thing we know about peados is they share images and videos, but not a single image of madie found, even though there have been various cash rewards promised for information.

I don't think she was taken by peados to be honest.

Rock77

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

cgcsb wrote: »

Also remember a private eye from Spain scowered the dark web in search of maddie, exposing a number of other peadophiles in the process and getting evidence that lead to solving other missing child cases. Not one peado ring in Europe had a breeze where maddie was. The chap sharing videos on his smart phone would have been surely identified at that stage if he was guilty.

One thing we know about peados is they share images and videos, but not a single image of madie found, even though there have been various cash rewards promised for information.

I don't think she was taken by peados to be honest.

Do you think she’s still alive?

Do you think the parents covered up an accident?

I was always of the thinking that she was kidnapped by a peadophile..

I just think that the first thing a normal person does if their child is hurt or unconscious is call an ambulance.

antgal23

Rock77 wrote: »

Do you think she’s still alive?

Do you think the parents covered up an accident?

I was always of the thinking that she was kidnapped by a peadophile..

I just think that the first thing a normal person does if their child is hurt or unconscious is call an ambulance.

I can't imagine they accidentally killed her and tried to cover it up - it doesn't make sense

How would a cover up benefit the parents more so than admitting guilt? I mean, accidents happen all the time especially with kids.

My 7 yr old impaled herself on the garden gate two years ago, I watched her un- impale herself - complete freak accident . Crumlin for three nights - very lucky

What makes sense is a paedophile ring operating out of the Algarve took her, either planned or unplanned.

Rock77

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

antgal23 wrote: »

I can't imagine they accidentally killed her and tried to cover it up - it doesn't make sense

How would a cover up benefit the parents more so than admitting guilt? I mean, accidents happen all the time especially with kids.

My 7 yr old impaled herself on the garden gate two years ago, I watched her un- impale herself - complete freak accident . Crumlin for three nights - very lucky

What makes sense is a paedophile ring operating out of the Algarve took her, either planned or unplanned.

I have to agree with you..

Hope your daughter is ok by the way..

cgcsb

Something Else

Rock77 wrote: »

Do you think she’s still alive?

Do you think the parents covered up an accident?

I was always of the thinking that she was kidnapped by a peadophile..

I just think that the first thing a normal person does if their child is hurt or unconscious is call an ambulance.

Well I don't know, but the simplest, low-drama, explanation is maddie wanders out in search of parents, meets a local drunk driver, the driver panics, realises nobody is around to witness and gets rid of the evidence. This is the simplest scenario and the only realistic scenario that involves only 1 person and leaves not a shred of evidence in the flat.

But I also can't get away from the parents being in some way involved given the general carry on of them or perhaps one of the parent's many friends. Predators usually pick a child they've met before or one that they see all the time. If we imagine the parents done it for a moment, the biggest problem with that scenario is how would they have gotten rid of the body, they would have had to call in local help somehow

A lone predator would have to be very very skilled to do it, he'd have to know the children wouldn't scream and attract attention(i.e. he'd have to know they were out for the count) and also extremely lucky, how would an abductor, no matter how forensic in his planning know that he wouldn't happen to walk past several witnesses between the hotel and the get away vehicle.

limnam

There's so many "all wrong" people in this.

It's a minefield.

antgal23

cgcsb wrote: »

Well I don't know, but the simplest, low-drama, explanation is maddie wanders out in search of parents, meets a local drunk driver, the driver panics, realises nobody is around to witness and gets rid of the evidence. This is the simplest scenario and the only realistic scenario that involves only 1 person and leaves not a shred of evidence in the flat.

But I also can't get away from the parents being in some way involved given the general carry on of them or perhaps one of the parent's many friends. Predators usually pick a child they've met before or one that they see all the time. If we imagine the parents done it for a moment, the biggest problem with that scenario is how would they have gotten rid of the body, they would have had to call in local help somehow

A lone predator would have to be very very skilled to do it, he'd have to know the children wouldn't scream and attract attention(i.e. he'd have to know they were out for the count) and also extremely lucky, how would an abductor, no matter how forensic in his planning know that he wouldn't happen to walk past several witnesses between the hotel and the get away vehicle.

Yeah, two good points there

I'd say the family friend one is more possible, girl didn't scream as she knew the person, person knew the parents were out and when they would check, they knew the complex and area etc

Did the cops use sniffer dogs in the first 12 hours after the disappearance?

cnocbui

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

antgal23 wrote: »

...
Did the cops use sniffer dogs in the first 12 hours after the disappearance?

Yes. Specialist SAR dog teams.

Neyite

cgcsb wrote: »

Well I don't know, but the simplest, low-drama, explanation is maddie wanders out in search of parents, meets a local drunk driver, the driver panics, realises nobody is around to witness and gets rid of the evidence. This is the simplest scenario and the only realistic scenario that involves only 1 person and leaves not a shred of evidence in the flat.

But I also can't get away from the parents being in some way involved given the general carry on of them or perhaps one of the parent's many friends. Predators usually pick a child they've met before or one that they see all the time. If we imagine the parents done it for a moment, the biggest problem with that scenario is how would they have gotten rid of the body, they would have had to call in local help somehow

A lone predator would have to be very very skilled to do it, he'd have to know the children wouldn't scream and attract attention(i.e. he'd have to know they were out for the count) and also extremely lucky, how would an abductor, no matter how forensic in his planning know that he wouldn't happen to walk past several witnesses between the hotel and the get away vehicle.

I've worked in hotels and gossip about guest's behaviour would always be quick to spread, so something like a group of guests habitually left their children unattended in the evenings to socialise in the bar would be known from the bar staff to reception and right down to kitchen staff. I often used to tell family a weird /annoying guest anecdote, so it's plausible that someone would go home and say to a relative "You'll never guess what this group of English tourists do - they leave their kids every night and go drinking at the bar" and they have no idea that the person they told decided it was the ideal opportunity to abduct a child.

Despite the denials of the group, it WAS unusual at the time to leave children without a sitter. Even more so, it's unthinkable to most people that you'd leave your babies and a pre-schooler in an unlocked foreign apartment and go sit out of sight and earshot drinking and eating so it would be gossiped about amongst staff.

Rock77

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Neyite wrote: »

I've worked in hotels and gossip about guest's behaviour would always be quick to spread, so something like a group of guests habitually left their children unattended in the evenings to socialise in the bar would be known from the bar staff to reception and right down to kitchen staff. I often used to tell family a weird /annoying guest anecdote, so it's plausible that someone would go home and say to a relative "You'll never guess what this group of English tourists do - they leave their kids every night and go drinking at the bar" and they have no idea that the person they told decided it was the ideal opportunity to abduct a child.

Despite the denials of the group, it WAS unusual at the time to leave children without a sitter. Even more so, it's unthinkable to most people that you'd leave your babies and a pre-schooler in an unlocked foreign apartment and go sit out of sight and earshot drinking and eating so it would be gossiped about amongst staff.

I’m sure this has been talked about in thread before so my apologies I’m new here!

I can honestly say I would never leave the house if my kids were in bed never mind an apt in a foreign country and that’s just because I’d be afraid of them waking up and panicking because I wasn’t there.

cgcsb

Something Else

Neyite wrote: »

I've worked in hotels and gossip about guest's behaviour would always be quick to spread, so something like a group of guests habitually left their children unattended in the evenings to socialise in the bar would be known from the bar staff to reception and right down to kitchen staff. I often used to tell family a weird /annoying guest anecdote, so it's plausible that someone would go home and say to a relative "You'll never guess what this group of English tourists do - they leave their kids every night and go drinking at the bar" and they have no idea that the person they told decided it was the ideal opportunity to abduct a child.

Despite the denials of the group, it WAS unusual at the time to leave children without a sitter. Even more so, it's unthinkable to most people that you'd leave your babies and a pre-schooler in an unlocked foreign apartment and go sit out of sight and earshot drinking and eating so it would be gossiped about amongst staff.

Yes I suppose that's possible but such a predator would have to do a bit of leg work to confirm gossip was accurate. They'd still not know the door was unlocked and they still would have a potentially screaming child to deal with and the possibility of running into witnesses.

cgcsb

Something Else

Rock77 wrote: »

I’m sure this has been talked about in thread before so my apologies I’m new here!

I can honestly say I would never leave the house if my kids were in bed never mind an apt in a foreign country and that’s just because I’d be afraid of them waking up and panicking because I wasn’t there.

:pac::pac::pac::pac:

That's all this thread is about, be prepared to have 20 posters tell you that's grand carry on.

Rock77

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

cgcsb wrote: »

:pac::pac::pac::pac:

That's all this thread is about, be prepared to have 20 posters tell you that's grand carry on.

Lol..

I have always and still do think the child was abducted and I feel so sorry for the parents but sorry there’s no way I would leave my child alone like they did.

Neyite

Rock77 wrote: »

I’m sure this has been talked about in thread before so my apologies I’m new here!

I can honestly say I would never leave the house if my kids were in bed never mind an apt in a foreign country and that’s just because I’d be afraid of them waking up and panicking because I wasn’t there.

I've said earlier in the thread that I wouldn't even go putting out the bins at home leaving him on his own in the apartment when my son was at that age - just because toddlers are unpredictable and able to get into something dangerous /destructive the minute your back is turned!

There's certainly a kind of cultural element to it though - in the UK the likes of Butlins and other such holiday camps used to operate a listening service for guests in the 40s and 50s. Staff would patrol around the chalets and if they heard a child crying they'd notify the entertainment hall where the parents would be socialising. But I think that died off in the 70s or earlier, and I'm not sure that it happened in Irish holiday camps like Mosney but I'd guess it did. In the late 80s (Ireland) though I would have been babysitting as would all my peers. Young as we were at 12 or 13, we had enough cop on to keep the door locked, and phone the local pub to summon the parents if there were any issues. While things have changed and I'd never leave a 12 or 13yo babysitting now, the argument that it was a perfectly normal thing to do in 2007 simply does not wash.

Add into that, we tend to be more cautious on holidays - you'd split up and hide holiday cash, put passports and jewellery in the room safe and it doesn't make sense that you would leave the room unlocked. Yet they did.

The other thing that struck me was that they all left their kids that way. There were 4 couples in the group and one older woman who was the mother of one of adults. Collectively they had 8 children. One couple (Tanner/O'Brien) alternated during dinner that night because one of their children was sick so one of them stayed with their children that night - but there's no mention that they staggered dinner that way on other nights. The Oldfields had one child it seems. The Paynes who had two girls had a baby monitor that meant they could listen out for them at least. With the exception of the Paynes who at least had a baby monitor the group were in the habit of leaving their children unsupervised each evening. I'm not sure that I believe that they checked on the children as frequently as they claimed, and when they did, they didn't do it consistently - Oldfield just listened at her door at 21.30 and didn't actually see Madeline in bed, just the twins. Her absence was discovered at 2200 by Kate. The previous check was supposedly Gerry McCann 30 mins into their dinner -at 21.05, 30 mins before Oldfield's. I can't imagine that if she was missing then, that he wouldn't have raised the alarm.

So she was either abducted during that hour or they were fibbing about the frequency of checks on the children, which I think is more likely to be the case, and probably why the authorities became suspicious that something wasn't quite adding up and the basis for them being considered suspects.

iamwhoiam

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

cgcsb wrote: »

:pac::pac::pac::pac:

That's all this thread is about, be prepared to have 20 posters tell you that's grand carry on.

Quote me 20 posters who think its grand carry on . The vast majority know it was not .

cgcsb

Something Else

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Quote me 20 posters who think its grand carry on . The vast majority know it was not .

lighten up

Neyite

cgcsb wrote: »

Yes I suppose that's possible but such a predator would have to do a bit of leg work to confirm gossip was accurate. They'd still not know the door was unlocked and they still would have a potentially screaming child to deal with and the possibility of running into witnesses.

True. We are assuming that the predator made one visit -the abduction one- though. The group had 4 days left in their holiday I think? So if they were doing that all week there was plenty of time for someone to try a patio door, or observe the group's habits and maybe go back better prepared another night. And maybe they were observed, or the hotel rooms were tried at night prior to the abduction.



Out of the 8 children, Madeline was the oldest. The twins were 20 months, the Oldfields baby was 22 months, Tanner/O'Brien's kids were 3 and 1yr old. I don't know the age of the Paynes two children but they were younger than Madeline. That's a lot of unattended toddlers, all but two on the ground floor apartments, which are much easier to break into. Ironically the ones who had the safer apartment in that regard - the Payne's - as it was located on the first floor, were the ones who had a baby monitor.

cgcsb

Something Else

The cultural gap certainly does play a role also. Portugal is a Catholic family orientated society. The McCanns themselves are Catholics yet they indulged in upper class English culture within which child abandonment is part of the scenery. No doubt the police and local media were flummoxed by this.