Madeleine McCann

Mantis Toboggan

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Fairly sure she was at the kids club until 6pm. Nobody outside the McCanns saw her after.
Matthew Oldfield went to check on the kids at 9:30 I believe but didn't look very hard and couldn't recall if Madeline was there or not...

Why he bothered going at all is odd. Surely you'd at least look to see if the kids were there!

Nah I understand that one, he looked into a dark room and everything looked OK. He wasn't going to turn on the lights and wake the kids up, I would have done the same.

fin12

Accident happened, parents hid body

Deleted User wrote: »

Fairly sure she was at the kids club until 6pm. Nobody outside the McCanns saw her after.
Matthew Oldfield went to check on the kids at 9:30 I believe but didn't look very hard and couldn't recall if Madeline was there or not...

Why he bothered going at all is odd. Surely you'd at least look to see if the kids were there!

What time did the McCanns go to dinner?

fin12

Accident happened, parents hid body

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Nah I understand that one, he looked into a dark room and everything looked OK. He wasn't going to turn on the lights and wake the kids up, I would have done the same.

I don’t know this might be me being overly cautious but when I’ve minded young kids at night and especially babies and would go right in the room, the light would be on in the hall so no need to turn bedroom light on, to check on them and even listen to the baby’s breathing.

Deusexmachina

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah lots. Not recently though. Have you?

https://www.thedailybeast.com/was-madeline-mccann-one-of-many

Deusexmachina

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah lots. Not recently though. Have you?

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/05/04/30-children-have-gone-missing-in-portugal-since-madeleine-mccann-disappeared_n_7378200.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer_us=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmllLw&guce_referrer_cs=sUC56wJ3FZdTltra8vUX-Q

the_pen_turner

Something Else

Deusexmachina wrote: »

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/05/04/30-children-have-gone-missing-in-portugal-since-madeleine-mccann-disappeared_n_7378200.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer_us=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmllLw&guce_referrer_cs=sUC56wJ3FZdTltra8vUX-Q

thats interesting . any update on the findings. any patern found .

what description are they using. the man with a child seen carrying a child .

MonkieSocks

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

To most people Portugal's state-run orphanages seemed like a safe haven for thousands of children who had been robbed of their parents.


They were called the Casa Pia, or Houses of the Pious.


But for an elite paedophile ring, which included a former ambassador and a prominent television celebrity, Casa Pia orphanages were something entirely different.


They were supermarkets stocked with children to abuse.


Yesterday, at the conclusion of the longest trial in Portugal's history, seven defendants were convicted of using the orphanages to rape and abuse scores of teenage boys in a case that has sent shockwaves through the country's political elite and raised serious concerns over the efficiency of Portugal's judiciary.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/guilty-after-six-year-trial-portugals-high-society-paedophile-ring-2070112.html


Wasn't there many people reported going around the Ocean Club making a collection for an orphanage

gozunda

Something Else

Deusexmachina wrote: »

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/05/04/30-children-have-gone-missing-in-portugal-since-madeleine-mccann-disappeared_n_7378200.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer_us=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmllLw&guce_referrer_cs=sUC56wJ3FZdTltra8vUX-Q

It was also revealed yesterday that details of over 100 calls to Crimestoppers about Madeleine in the days after she vanished were never handed to police.

They mostly came from psychics....

:rolleyes:

cnocbui

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

fin12 wrote: »

What time did the McCanns go to dinner?

Here, knock yourself out: http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk

cnocbui

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

fin12 wrote: »

I don’t know this might be me being overly cautious but when I’ve minded young kids at night and especially babies and would go right in the room, the light would be on in the hall so no need to turn bedroom light on, to check on them and even listen to the baby’s breathing.

I used to babysit for someone who owned a nightclub. I'd to go to sleep on the couch then wake when I heard keys in the door around 04:30

retro:electro

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Listening at the door is fine. Sometimes the creak can wake them. I’ve often just shoved my head in and if I see some kind of human shaped replica on the duvet it’s good enough. You’re checking to see are they crying/awake.. abduction would rarely cross your mind.

MmmChocolate

I've read this whole thread but I may have missed this so apologies if it was posted already. It's an unnerving theory but it seems to fit the facts - as I know them anyway. The points are well made but be warned - it's upsetting enough that you might end up wishing you hadn't read it because yes, there are people out there capable of doing the things it suggests.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1052261768909733888.html

MmmChocolate

MmmChocolate wrote: »

I've read this whole thread but I may have missed this so apologies if it was posted already. It's an unnerving theory but it seems to fit the facts - as I know them anyway. The points are well made but be warned - it's upsetting enough that you might end up wishing you hadn't read it because yes, there are people out there capable of doing the things it suggests.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1052261768909733888.html

I don't see any evidence of anything in that thread.
It's someone posting their opinion. Nothing to back it up.

Boom_Bap

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

To be fair, everything is an opinion or a scenario that has been played out with the evidence how they see it, or how they want to see it.
Good detective work is being able to make the real story out of the evidence.

iamwhoiam

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

bubblypop wrote: »

I don't see any evidence of anything in that thread.
It's someone posting their opinion. Nothing to back it up.

Also loads of factual mistakes in that thread . Its full of rubbish

MmmChocolate

bubblypop wrote: »

I don't see any evidence of anything in that thread.
It's someone posting their opinion. Nothing to back it up.

Yes. That's what I meant by the words 'theory' and 'it suggests'.

Babooshka

MmmChocolate wrote: »

Yes. That's what I meant by the words 'theory' and 'it suggests'.

Yeah but it's kind of something from the imagination of a nut job with nothing else to do. We could all sit there and make up stuff about who took her but what the hell is the point. Chances are the poor little child was taken by some such nut case - but it's these crazies coming out on the internet, people who vilify the McCanns while getting off on unleashing the darkest recesses of their minds (and only their imaginations) that bothers me.

MmmChocolate

Babooshka wrote: »

Yeah but it's kind of something from the imagination of a nut job with nothing else to do. We could all sit there and make up stuff about who took her but what the hell is the point. Chances are the poor little child was taken by some such nut case - but it's these crazies coming out on the internet, people who vilify the McCanns while getting off on unleashing the darkest recesses of their minds (and only their imaginations) that bothers me.

That's fair enough. I thought it seemed at least feasible enough to be worth posting. Unless we're talking hollow earth or lizard people, I think very few theories are so far fetched as to not be worth at least looking at.

Deusexmachina

MmmChocolate wrote: »

That's fair enough. I thought it seemed at least feasible enough to be worth posting. Unless we're talking hollow earth or lizard people, I think very few theories are so far fetched as to not be worth at least looking at.

While I understand your reasoning, my problem is that some of the theorizing involves accusing the child’s parents of murder or manslaughter of their own child.
Idle specuation is fine but some of vitriol the Mc Canns have been subjected to is shocking.
There really is no reason to hurt these people even more than they have suffered already but some keyboard warriors are relentless.

MmmChocolate

Deusexmachina wrote: »

While I understand your reasoning, my problem is that some of the theorizing involves accusing the child’s parents of murder or manslaughter of their own child.
Idle specuation is fine but some of vitriol the Mc Canns have been subjected to is shocking.
There really is no reason to hurt these people even more than they have suffered already but some keyboard warriors are relentless.

I agree that her parents have been subjected to shocking amounts of vitriol and abuse. But by the same token, I think it's naive to completely disregard the possibility of their involvement, whether deliberately or accidentally, based simply on the fact that they are her parents. It would be great if we lived in a world where parents never damaged or harmed their own children - but the sad fact of the matter is that we don't. I tend to think of the parents as innocent until proven guilty. But there are just too many unanswered questions to conclusively declare them innocent of any involvement.

Deusexmachina

MmmChocolate wrote: »

I agree that her parents have been subjected to shocking amounts of vitriol and abuse. But by the same token, I think it's naive to completely disregard the possibility of their involvement, whether deliberately or accidentally, based simply on the fact that they are her parents. It would be great if we lived in a world where parents never damaged or harmed their own children - but the sad fact of the matter is that we don't. I tend to think of the parents as innocent until proven guilty. But there are just too many unanswered questions to conclusively declare them innocent of any involvement.

But it’s not simply because they are her parents. Not at all.

Nobody has ever been able to develop a reasonable scenario backed up with proper evidence which expliains how and why her parents killed her and/or disposed of her body.

Any scenario I have ever read from conspiracy theorists have more holes in them than swizz cheese.

MmmChocolate

Deusexmachina wrote: »

But it’s not simply because they are her parents. Not at all.

Nobody has ever been able to develop a reasonable scenario backed up with proper evidence which expliains how and why her parents killed her and/or disposed of her body.

Any scenario I have ever read from conspiracy theorists have more holes in them than swizz cheese.

Well then I suggest you avoid conspiracy theorists. There is no shortage of documented and confirmed facts of the case from proper sources that are enough to prevent them from being ruled innocent - the unanswered questions, the cadaver dogs, the use of the picture of her eyes against all legal advice, to name but a few.

If a high court judge feels it's important enough to make the distinction between them being ruled out as suspects and being declared innocent, then that to me is enough to bear in mind that they may have had some involvement. Even if it was as simple as accidentally overdosing her with sedatives and then panicking. Maintaining the possibility of their involvement does not necessarily mean that they are the incarnation of evil that so many people seem to think they are. They can easily have one without the other.

Deusexmachina

MmmChocolate wrote: »

Well then I suggest you avoid conspiracy theorists. There is no shortage of documented and confirmed facts of the case from proper sources that are enough to prevent them from being ruled innocent - the unanswered questions, the cadaver dogs, the use of the picture of her eyes against all legal advice, to name but a few.

If a high court judge feels it's important enough to make the distinction between them being ruled out as suspects and being declared innocent, then that to me is enough to bear in mind that they may have had some involvement. Even if it was as simple as accidentally overdosing her with sedatives and then panicking. Maintaining the possibility of their involvement does not necessarily mean that they are the incarnation of evil that so many people seem to think they are. They can easily have one without the other.

There is NO credible scenario where they killed their child and buried her. Feel free to offer one.

MmmChocolate

Deusexmachina wrote: »

There is NO credible scenario where they killed their child and buried her. Feel free to offer one.

I didn't say there was. I said repeatedly 'involvement'. A credible scenario is that the child died and they felt somehow responsible and panicked, behaved irrationally (which would certainly be understandable), disposed of the body and are now so invested that they don't know how to backtrack.

Deusexmachina

MmmChocolate wrote: »

I didn't say there was. I said repeatedly 'involvement'. A credible scenario is that the child died and they felt somehow responsible and panicked, behaved irrationally (which would certainly be understandable), disposed of the body and are now so invested that they don't know how to backtrack.

Sorry, but that’s not credible in any way.

MmmChocolate

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Sorry, but that’s not credible in any way.

Well then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

iamwhoiam

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Sorry, but that’s not credible in any way.

Its just as credible as any other theory , none of us know what happened .I think discussing all theories is fair on this thread .Yours ,mine and all others opinions are equally as valid .Its not my opinion either but am willing to listen to others and allow them to have opinions

ozzy jr

Something Else

MmmChocolate wrote: »

I didn't say there was. I said repeatedly 'involvement'. A credible scenario is that the child died and they felt somehow responsible and panicked, behaved irrationally (which would certainly be understandable), disposed of the body and are now so invested that they don't know how to backtrack.

That certainly is a plausible scenario. I'm not suggesting for a minute that's what happened (before the usual suspects come along), but to completely dismiss it is wrong.

MmmChocolate

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Its just as credible as any other theory , none of us know what happened .I think discussing all theories is fair on this thread .Yours ,mine and all others opinions are equally as valid .

I suspect Deusexmachina feels that any theory that doesn't exonerate the parents 100% is not a credible theory.

MmmChocolate

MmmChocolate wrote: »

I tend to think of the parents as innocent until proven guilty. But there are just too many unanswered questions to conclusively declare them innocent of any involvement.

This doesn't make sense . You think the parents as innocent until proven guilty, however you don't believe they can be declared innocent?

MmmChocolate

bubblypop wrote: »

This doesn't make sense . You think the parents as innocent until proven guilty, however you don't believe they can be declared innocent?

Let me rephrase. I don't necessarily default to the belief that they were involved, which I guess isn't exactly the same as thinking they're innocent. I would be more inclined to think they were not involved than they were. But there are too many questions for them to be conclusively declared innocent.

Deusexmachina

MmmChocolate wrote: »

I suspect Deusexmachina feels that any theory that doesn't exonerate the parents 100% is not a credible theory.

Absolutely. Anything else is frankly rubbish. Cadaver dogs sniff a hired car - HIRED WEEKS AFTER THE CHILD GOES MISSING.

How the hell did they hide the body for weeks in the apartment in the full view of police, friends, family, worlds media - and then smuggle this stinking rotten corpse out to the car and then bury it without anyone noticing??

I mean really - this is the stuff we are asked to take seriously...

retro:electro

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

MmmChocolate wrote: »

I've read this whole thread but I may have missed this so apologies if it was posted already. It's an unnerving theory but it seems to fit the facts - as I know them anyway. The points are well made but be warned - it's upsetting enough that you might end up wishing you hadn't read it because yes, there are people out there capable of doing the things it suggests.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1052261768909733888.html

“I ain't even done yet bitch let me tell you about how they sold her into sex trafficking”

Wow.

badabing106

Deusexmachina wrote: »

But it’s not simply because they are her parents. Not at all.

Nobody has ever been able to develop a reasonable scenario backed up with proper evidence which expliains how and why her parents killed her and/or disposed of her body.

Any scenario I have ever read from conspiracy theorists have more holes in them than swizz cheese.

The British and Portuguese detectives working on the case finished their investigation and their conclusion was that Madeleine mcann died in the apartment because of an accident, and the mcann were responsible, upon discovering her,of concealing and transporting the body somewhere and faking an abduction attempt

iamwhoiam

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Absolutely. Anything else is frankly rubbish. Cadaver dogs sniff a hired car - HIRED WEEKS AFTER THE CHILD GOES MISSING.

How the hell did they hide the body for weeks in the apartment in the full view of police, friends, family, worlds media - and then smuggle this stinking rotten corpse out to the car and then bury it without anyone noticing??

I mean really - this is the stuff we are asked to take seriously...

I think personally if you made your arguments politely and not so shouty and rude people would tend to listen to you
Shouting people down rarely makes them listen , just my opinion of course

Deusexmachina

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I think personally if you made your arguments politely and not so shouty and rude people would tend to listen to you
Shouting people down rarely makes them listen , just my opinion of course

I am not being shouty. I am simply calling out some really nasty rumour and innuendo that has caused this family incredible hurt.

Deusexmachina

badabing106 wrote: »

The British and Portuguese detectives working on the case finished their investigation and their conclusion was that Madeleine mcann died in the apartment because of an accident, and the mcann were responsible, upon discovering her,of concealing and transporting the body somewhere and faking an abduction attempt

Really??????

iamwhoiam

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Deusexmachina wrote: »

I am not being shouty. I am simply calling out some really nasty rumour and innuendo that has caused this family incredible hurt.

You have tended to shoutsince the thread started with such posts as " leave them alone " etc . Just my experience that people who shout their opinion rarely get listened to . Explaination and measured reasons for your opinion will far more likely be heard . I too have bourne the brunt of your shouting despite make valid points and basically being open minded .
But of course that is just an opinion also

cnocbui

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

badabing106 wrote: »

The British and Portuguese detectives working on the case finished their investigation and their conclusion was that Madeleine mcann died in the apartment because of an accident, and the mcann were responsible, upon discovering her,of concealing and transporting the body somewhere and faking an abduction attempt

The detectives made no such conclusion. Pure fantasy.

Deusexmachina

iamwhoiam wrote: »

You have tended to shoutsince the thread started with such posts as " leave them alone " etc . Just my experience that people who shout their opinion rarely get listened to . Explaination and measured reasons for your opinion will far more likely be heard . But of course that is just an opinion also

You keep criticising me personally. Why not just discuss the points raised?

(I am actually a decent enough person - I just don't like to see these people being treated so badly online. No need for personal jibes)

Boom_Bap

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Enough with the personal jabs, it's already had the thread on shakey ground, and I don't want to see a repeat.

iamwhoiam

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Deusexmachina wrote: »

You keep criticising me personally. Why not just discuss the points raised?

(I am actually a decent enough person - I just don't like to see these people being treated so badly online. No need for personal jibes)

Actually you persistently told me I was banging on about the same points . Works both ways . But if you prefer I can completely ignore your posts and keep my distance

cnocbui

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Absolutely. Anything else is frankly rubbish. Cadaver dogs sniff a hired car - HIRED WEEKS AFTER THE CHILD GOES MISSING.

How the hell did they hide the body for weeks in the apartment in the full view of police, friends, family, worlds media - and then smuggle this stinking rotten corpse out to the car and then bury it without anyone noticing??

I mean really - this is the stuff we are asked to take seriously...

It's very easy - Portuguese trained tracker and SAR dogs are completely incompetent, unlike dogs trained in the UK. You don't expect a foreign SAR dog to be able to find a hidden body, do you?

The McCanns clearly aren't really medical professionals, they are actually magicians. Amazing what you can hide up your sleeve.

badabing106

cnocbui wrote: »

The detectives made no such conclusion. Pure fantasy.

Below is a statement from the chief inspector of the Madeleine McCann case and the conclusion of the entire investigation. He was confronted in court , when team McCann took a lawsuit against a book written by one of its leading investigators.

Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida told the court that he believed the couple, from Rothley, Leicestershire, were directly involved in Madeleine’s disappearance – a theory he said was shared by Portuguese and British officers working on the case

He said: “The conclusion that was arrived at was that Madeleine McCann died at the apartment and the McCann couple simulated the abduction to hide the fact that they had not taken care of their children.

“There was a tragic accident in the apartment that night and they neglected the care of their children. It was the conclusion of both Portuguese and British police. We have always spoken of a tragic accidental death. There was no homicide.”



Asked if he thought Madeleine was dead, Mr de Almeida replied: “Yes. She is dead. It was not only the police who believed this but the public prosecutor. The McCanns did not kill her but they concealed the body.”

Mr de Almeida was giving evidence on behalf of his former colleague Goncalo Amaral who is seeking to overturn a ban on the book he wrote about the Madeleine case entitled Maddie: The Truth Of The Lie.



The detective described the book as a “true history of the facts”. He said: “Goncalo Amaral was very careful to come to this conclusion with the facts.”

Luis Neves, the head of Portugal’s anti-terrorism unit, told the court they had employed a British profiler who gave him the impression that the McCanns were guilty of involvement in Madeleine’s disappearance.
Mr de Almeida said their suspicions about the couple appeared to be confirmed when sniffer dogs found traces of blood and the smell of death at the McCanns’ holiday apartment.
One of the dogs was in a nervous, excitable state and wanted to get into the room, said Mr de Almeida.

He said: “Inside the apartment there were two places where the dogs gave a sign. One was in the bedroom, the other was in the dining room.
“It was also found in the McCanns’ new apartment on a piece of clothing and in the rental car.”

Asked if it was the dog’s reaction that led police to make the McCanns formal suspects in the investigation, he said: “No, they were already suspected of simulating a kidnapping and concealing the body.”

[URL="http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/151405/Maddie-died-in-apartment-court-hearsMaddie-died-in-apartment-court-hearsMaddie-][/url]

Deusexmachina

The parents did it

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Absolutely. Anything else is frankly rubbish. Cadaver dogs sniff a hired car - HIRED WEEKS AFTER THE CHILD GOES MISSING.

How the hell did they hide the body for weeks in the apartment in the full view of police, friends, family, worlds media - and then smuggle this stinking rotten corpse out to the car and then bury it without anyone noticing??

I mean really - this is the stuff we are asked to take seriously...

I don't think it would have to be a corpse that the dog scented in the car, maybe something a corpse had been in was put in the car. A bag with odour maybe? So a corpus wouldn't have to be kept for weeks

gozunda

Something Else

Deusexmachina wrote: »

I am not being shouty. I am simply calling out some really nasty rumour and innuendo that has caused this family incredible hurt.

The real victim of all this is a child - a child no one has heard of since the 3rd of May 2007.

Whether the mccanns are innocent or otherwise remains to be seen. Children statistically are more likley to be hurt or killed by those closest to them than a stranger. It is fact that the parents were less than cooperative with the original investigation. It remains that investigation came to a premature end partially as result of the lack of cooperation of the mccanns and their friends who were on holiday with them.

A little less shouting about the 'feelings' or otherwise of the parents and more on the fate of the victim and a discussion of the evidence which does exist is a heluva more constructive imo.

Deusexmachina

gozunda wrote: »

The real victim of all this is a child - a child no one has heard of since the 3rd of May 2007.

Whether the mccanns are innocent or otherwise remains to be seen. Children statistically are more likley to be hurt or killed by those closest to them than a stranger. It is fact that the parents were less than cooperative with the original investigation. It remains that investigation came to a premature end partially as result of the lack of cooperation of the mccanns and their friends who were on holiday with them.

A little less shouting about the 'feelings' or otherwise of the parents and more on the fate of the victim and a discussion of the evidence which does exist is a heluva more constructive imo.

Nope. The REAL victims are a child, her parents, her brother and sister, her grandparents, aunts and uncles, and friends of the family.

A child does not die without incredible hurt caused to her family. To dismiss this is callous.

iamwhoiam

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Poor little Madeleine the real victim in this sad story . Let down by those who should have protected her . But I often worry too about the twins . They are at an age where they will be questioning and wondering . Being 14 is not easy and they will worry and be uneasy about decisions made .

robwen

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Does Amarals book put forward a theory as to how or when the McCann's allegedly disposed of the body?

gozunda

Something Else

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't think it would have to be a corpse that the dog scented in the car, maybe something a corpse had been in was put in the car. A bag with odour maybe? So a corpus wouldn't have to be kept for weeks

Some off the places investigated by the Portugese police during the investigation was a cold storage facility and the crypt of a local church. Portugal in early May is not as warm as areas further south in neighbouring Spain - with temperatures averaging between 12.5 - 17c for the Month.

Possible methods which would have caused delayed decomposition was one of the areas of the original investigation afaik. Such a scenario would also have meant that the body would not have needed to have been disposed of until much later.