Madeleine McCann

professore

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Some utter nonsense on this thread. Those poor parents have suffered unmeasurably by the loss of their little girl.
Their torture has been made unimaginably worse by callous, ignorant and vindictive commentary online.

Stupid unfounded conspiracy theories which have no basis in fact. Complete tripe. I really despair.

The child was abducted. This is the conclusion of years of investigation and it is also the only theory that makes any sense at all.

This is the world we live in now. Guilty until proven innocent.

2 Scoops

Always found the cadaver dogs interesting..

Spanish Eyes

I have often wondered why they chose a most incompetent private investigating firm to search for their daughter when they could have hired the best in the business with the Fund. Join the dots.

The whole scenario is just bizarre.

MonkieSocks

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

limnam wrote: »

But why you prevent your other kids from been tested? Especially when your "team" are putting forward all kids may have been sedated by the abductor.

Clarence Mitchell;

It is understood the couple’s legal team hired forensic specialists to examine hair samples from the twins, who were in the same room as Madeleine in the Ocean Club apartment in Praia da Luz when she disappeared an May 3, and no trace of sedative was found.

A source close to the legal team said: “It would be logical for tests to be carried out on the twins to show that they have never been given sedatives.
“It would be right to say those tests show no evidence of sedatives in their systems.

It backs up Kate and Gerry’s claims that they have never sedated the children and explains why they are so certain they can prove that the allegation is just another smear.”

Deusexmachina

Nobody ever offers an alternative explanation for what happened. The reason being, they know it would never stand up to scruitiny.

iamwhoiam

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Salvatore Cool BubbleMGS wrote: »

Being a parent also I couldn’t leave my children alone in a hotel room (foreign country or otherwise) and go out for a meal.

It wasn't even as " safe " as a hotel room , it was an apartment open to public road on two sides . That particular apartment was vulnerable as it was first in a row and so the steps from the patio doors led right onto a street .


Ps . Not that I would think a hotel room is safe enough to leave my child either

limnam

professore wrote: »

My mum was laughing and joking at my dad's funeral. Its called shock. She fell apart a few days later.

Shock is normal.


Lying to the police who are investigating the abduction of your daughter is not normal.


Refusing to assist with said investigation is not normal.


Trying to discredit people hired to assist you find your daughter is not normal.


Pretty much all their actions during this investigation is not normal


But feel free to point out the one thing they've yet to do or show.

limnam

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Nobody ever offers an alternative explanation for what happened. The reason being, they know it would never stand up to scruitiny.

Again, every time you post just shows how little you know about it.


I'd say you'd need to read a little more and see what's been offered up in alternative theories and come back and let us know how you get on with your scrutiny

limnam

MonkieSocks wrote: »

Clarence Mitchell;

It is understood the couple’s legal team hired forensic specialists to examine hair samples from the twins, who were in the same room as Madeleine in the Ocean Club apartment in Praia da Luz when she disappeared an May 3, and no trace of sedative was found.

A source close to the legal team said: “It would be logical for tests to be carried out on the twins to show that they have never been given sedatives.
“It would be right to say those tests show no evidence of sedatives in their systems.

It backs up Kate and Gerry’s claims that they have never sedated the children and explains why they are so certain they can prove that the allegation is just another smear.”

Do you know how long sedatives can be detected after they're taken?


Do you think someone who's job it is to put people asleep does?



How long after May 3rd were the tests done?


Was it months?



Why would you allow "your" "legal" team to do it and not the investigators assisting you with trying to find your daughter rather than the team preventing you from been convicted of it ?


It's this sort of gullible rubbish that has us where we're.

heldel00

I've been following this thread but don't feel i could pass judgement either way.

But one thing i will say is that a marching band, followed by a circus could be in my 3yr old's bedroom and he wouldn't wake up. I have in the past had to lift him out of my bed to put him into his own and he would still be sound asleep.

Toddlers sleep like logs.

iamwhoiam

iamwhoiam wrote: »

It wasn't even as " safe " as a hotel room , it was an apartment open to public road on two sides . That particular apartment was vulnerable as it was first in a row and so the steps from the patio doors led right onto a street .


Ps . Not that I would think a hotel room is safe enough to leave my child either

Honestly I wouldn’t even step out my front door while a child was left inside asleep. There’s so many things that could happen in seconds of closing it behind me it just isn’t wise. Yeah it’s sad their daughter is missing or dead, but imo they don’t deserve the sympathy because it is their own fault. What do you expect to happen when you do something so stupid and selfish? The real crime is that they were left with the other two kids after this. It’s a shambles.

heldel00

heldel00 wrote: »

I've been following this thread but don't feel i could pass judgement either way.

But one thing i will say is that a marching band, followed by a circus could be in my 3yr old's bedroom and he wouldn't wake up. I have in the past had to lift him out of my bed to put him into his own and he would still be sound asleep.

Toddlers sleep like logs.

Well for my own 4 year old a cough outside his bedroom door as you pass would wake him. Just like all other people (kids or adults) some are heavy sleepers some are very light sleepers. It’s a ridiculous assertion to say because your child sleeps heavily that all do.

limnam

heldel00 wrote: »

Toddlers sleep like logs.

For some it's true for some it's not.


As true or not true it is.


In the grand scheme of things, it's irrelevant.


And just to be clear. it was the mcanns team suggesting they were sedated by the abductor.


to explain why while been moved e.g. they were takign from the apartment and moved and never budged...

iamwhoiam

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

heldel00 wrote: »

I've been following this thread but don't feel i could pass judgement either way.

But one thing i will say is that a marching band, followed by a circus could be in my 3yr old's bedroom and he wouldn't wake up. I have in the past had to lift him out of my bed to put him into his own and he would still be sound asleep.

Toddlers sleep like logs.

I had three kids , one slept like a log , one woke at any noise and one woke if we moved the duvet back over her ! Not all toddlers are alike

heldel00

heldel00 wrote: »

I've been following this thread but don't feel i could pass judgement either way.

But one thing i will say is that a marching band, followed by a circus could be in my 3yr old's bedroom and he wouldn't wake up. I have in the past had to lift him out of my bed to put him into his own and he would still be sound asleep.

Toddlers sleep like logs.

Edited to add - not all toddlers sleep like logs. Just mine!

Red Lightning

Salvatore Cool BubbleMGS wrote:

Honestly I wouldn’t even step out my front door while a child was left inside asleep. There’s so many things that could happen in seconds of closing it behind me it just isn’t wise. Yeah it’s sad their daughter is missing or dead, but imo they don’t deserve the sympathy because it is their own fault. What do you expect to happen when you do something so stupid and selfish? The real crime is that they were left with the other two kids after this. It’s a shambles.

I can't say many would disagree. The only person who deserves sympathy is little Madeline. Her parents neglect caused this horrendous situation.

Deusexmachina

Something Else

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Nobody ever offers an alternative explanation for what happened. The reason being, they know it would never stand up to scruitiny.

Errr, the Portuguese police that were involved in the entire initial investigation had an explanation backed up by evidence.

It wasn't enough evidence for a conviction but they still believe it.

And their theory is a lot more credible than anything Scotland Yard have offered.

iamwhoiam

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Salvatore Cool BubbleMGS wrote: »

Honestly I wouldn’t even step out my front door while a child was left inside asleep. There’s so many things that could happen in seconds of closing it behind me it just isn’t wise. Yeah it’s sad their daughter is missing or dead, but imo they don’t deserve the sympathy because it is their own fault. What do you expect to happen when you do something so stupid and selfish? The real crime is that they were left with the other two kids after this. It’s a shambles.

We walked past the apartment a year after Madeleine went missing . My husband stopped dead on the road , looked at the steps into up to the patio and said " I bet they didn't leave their camera or their wallet on the table in the apartment then it would be too risky "

If anyone saw the pattern of leaving the children every evening and took the opportunity it was made very easy for them . Within minutes of leaving PdaL you are out in dark , isolated countryside

MonkieSocks

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

limnam wrote: »

Do you know how long sedatives can be detected after they're taken?


yes, but depends on what was given.
Trace elements may show up in Blood and hair samples



Do you think someone who's job it is to put people asleep does?


Yes




How long after May 3rd were the tests done?


Oct 2007



Was it months?


yes


Why would you allow "your" "legal" team to do it and not the investigators assisting you with trying to find your daughter rather than the team preventing you from been convicted of it ?


At the time there was no investigation in UK.


Portuguese Police refused Kate McCanns request for a test.


Only for test was their "Legal Team" get an independent test done


It's this sort of gullible rubbish that has us where we're.


:rolleyes:

.

limnam

MonkieSocks wrote: »

.

So they got tested when there's pretty much no chance of anything showing up months later


Hero's

MonkieSocks

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

limnam wrote: »

So they got tested when there's pretty much no chance of anything showing up months later


Hero's

Ehhhh.....they wanted it done by Portuguese police, who didn't think it was necessary.


As for the "Hero's" comment



kate and Gerry McCann are not hero's, they are arrogant selfish people who through attitude endangered their childeren, resulting in one of them being missing.


I still don't Think they did it at first I did but having read a lot the Police files I changed my mind
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/sitemap.htm

No Chloroform was detected either

The area of the pillow of the bed from the minor disappeared was inspected with the intention to detect the presence of some smell [aroma] characteristic of volatile substances typical of chloroform or ether, this search proving negative

There proceeded the search for possible blood traces in all of the apartment, using a variable- wave light source appropriate for the task.This search resulted in the detection of several spots having a red-brown tone that suggested blood, which were subjected to a "Kastle-Mayer" peroxidise test, the result obtained, in all cases, being negative.

There also proceeded the observation and search for blood traces inside the apartment using a chemical product to find latent blood traces. In the application of the referred product no results characteristic of the presence of blood traces were found

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm

limnam

MonkieSocks wrote: »

Ehhhh.....they wanted it done by Portuguese police, who didn't think it was necessary.

Huh.


They could have been tested at any GP in Portugal or the UK at any time.


If you suspected someone drugged your kids which is what comes out of their "camp" why wouldn't you just go get it done regardless?


Why wait till October?


As I said, because of their profession they'd know exactly how long. Knowing that as a concerned parent why didn't they just do it?

MonkieSocks

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

limnam wrote: »

Huh.


They could have been tested at any GP in Portugal or the UK at any time.

Can't ever say I ever heard of a GP doing forensic testing







Not allowed under Portuguese law,it could only have been authorised by Portuguese police.

limnam

MonkieSocks wrote: »

Can't ever say I ever heard of a GP doing forensic testing

huh


Any GP can carry out a drug test.....


I'm not suggesting they do it to prove their innocence but to determine if their kids have been drugged.....


If that was there concern....

MonkieSocks wrote: »

Not allowed under Portuguese law,it could only have been authorised by Portuguese police.

Huh


So anyone wanting to have a drug test done in portugal has to go to the Portuguese police?


wtf are you talking about.

MonkieSocks

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

limnam wrote: »

So anyone wanting to have a drug test done in portugal has to go to the Portuguese police?


wtf are you talking about. /QUOTE]




Anyone wanting to have a drug test done in Portugal that might interfere with a police investigation has to go through the Portuguese police?


A GP doing this in Portugal would be interfering in an official police investigation.


The secrecy laws in Portugal are very strict.

limnam

MonkieSocks wrote: »

limnam wrote: »

So anyone wanting to have a drug test done in portugal has to go to the Portuguese police?


wtf are you talking about. /QUOTE]




Anyone wanting to have a drug test done in Portugal that might interfere with a police investigation has to go through the Portuguese police?


A GP doing this in Portugal would be interfering in an official police investigation.


The secrecy laws in Portugal are very strict.

All right, i thought you were suggesting _anyone_ wanting to have it done.


Anyway. why not get it done earlier in the uk?


either way it doesn't prove anything one way or another.


If it had of been done earlier, all it would suggest was it wasn't accidental death via sedation .

limnam

out of curiosity


do you have a source that states they offered the twins to be tested?



I'd never heard that before

The parents doing it never made sense to me as where do you dispose of a body so that'll never be found? . In a place you don't really know either, which is then a high profile search area.

Also the body being your own daughter. Doesn't add up. To keep calm after that you'd want to be a serial killer.

limnam

RoboKlopp wrote: »

The parents doing it never made sense to me as where do you dispose of a body so that'll never be found? . In a place you don't really know either, which is then a high profile search area.

Also the body being your own daughter. Doesn't add up. To keep calm after that you'd want to be a serial killer.

But them changing their story adds up?


Them refusing to assit in the investigation adds up?


Trying to discredit people hired to assit with the investigation adds up?


Them spending hundreds of thousands on clowns adds up?


You don't have a problem with the hundreds of things that don't add up because deposing of a body might be difficult?


Really.

Steve F

professore wrote: »

My mum was laughing and joking at my dad's funeral. Its called shock. She fell apart a few days later.

That's OK.I'm not really arguing anything just I thought it a little odd his reaction.
Also the video I posted a few posts later looks a little odd too (to me)

Neyite

Lady Spangles wrote: »

Most parents, at some point, have to leave their kids alone. And, as I understand, they were close by and checking in frequently. I just don't think that makes them murderers.

Most don't leave their kids though. Even 'back in the day' it wasn't the done thing either. In the 70's & 80's the babysitters could have been younger than these days but most did get babysitters. Even in places like Butlins decades ago where parents did leave their children in bed to go to the evening entertainment they had staff who patrolled the chalets listening for children and would alert the parents over the intercom. And that was back in the seventies when parenting was a lot more lax than now.

Parents might dash out to the shed to get coal or to quickly hang out a line of washing while they are the ages of the McCann children. there's regularly debates over in parenting whether it's ok to leave your child in the car at the pumps while you pay for the fuel and most don't feel all that comfortable doing it unless they have the car in eyesight at all times.

The sad thing is that the McCanns probably secured their passports, jewellery and holiday cash in a safe yet gave not a passing thought to the children's welfare in an unlocked room in a foreign country.

I don't believe they killed her. But I do believe that they (and their group) were in the habit of leaving the children every evening like the fateful night. I don't believe that they checked on the children as often as they stated. And that that is why they come across as untruthful or evasive and therefore more suspect. My personal theory is that hotel staff were aware that a group of children were being left alone night after night by rich holidaymakers, and one could have mentioned it unwittingly to a friend or family member who used the opportunity to abduct Madeline.

Dog Man Star

RoboKlopp wrote: »

The parents doing it never made sense to me as where do you dispose of a body so that'll never be found? . In a place you don't really know either, which is then a high profile search area.

The sniffer dog found the scent of a cadaver in the boot of the hired car, hired after Madeline went missing.

The video of the dog in action is on Youtube.

Dog Man Star

RoboKlopp wrote: »

Also the body being your own daughter. Doesn't add up. To keep calm after that you'd want to be a serial killer.

If Madeline had died in an accident, which the Portugese police believe happened, they stood to lose the twins, their careers and be potentially jailed.

Keeping calm was the only option they had.

retro:electro

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

I think I would buy into the theory that they harmed their child/she had an accident and they buried her if they were holidaying alone and not with friends and their parent.
I just don’t know how one person on earth could cover up the accidental death and subsequent burial of a toddler in a foreign country, never mind five or six people covering it up. There is no benefit for them to lie.
Someone would have cracked by now.

Deusexmachina

limnam wrote: »

Again, every time you post just shows how little you know about it.


I'd say you'd need to read a little more and see what's been offered up in alternative theories and come back and let us know how you get on with your scrutiny

I didn't realise I was so ignorant. Sorry about that.

How little I know. Tell me in full detail, what actually happened then?

Deusexmachina

Red Lightning wrote: »

I can't say many would disagree. The only person who deserves sympathy is little Madeline. Her parents neglect caused this horrendous situation.

What a callous, mean spirited post. They made a really bad mistake - a shocking error of judgement. It does not mean they deserve to have their child kidnapped and killed ffs.

They have paid a horrendous price. The fact that you don't think they deserve sympathy for losing their beloved little girl says more about you (and other amateur detectives like you) than it does about them, I'm afraid.

cnocbui

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Deusexmachina wrote: »

I didn't realise I was so ignorant. Sorry about that.

How little I know. Tell me in full detail, what actually happened then?

That is actually really simple. Some families went on holiday. The resort they were staying at offered a nanny service - which was someone going around to their rooms and checking on their kids, from time to time. One evening the parents decided to do this themselves and checked on the kids from time to time, while they were socialising. On one of those checks, Madeleine McCann was not in her room and was missing.

Surprising as it may seem, that is pretty much all that is known. There is no evidence as to why she was missing

jimwallace197

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

I dont think they were involved in her dissapearance only insofar as they were negligent in their responsibility to her which I feel they have extreme guilt over.

I've read and seen alot of the theories of them being involved and its all fairly light, I really dont believe both of them could keep up an act like this for this long without one or the other cracking.

The investigation was haphazard at best and really showed the ineptitude of the portugese police who in fairness wouldnt have come across many cases like this.

I believe either it was an inside job of where one of the staff at the hotel tipped off someone or they were watched over a number of days and the careless attitude of the parents was noticed.

Deusexmachina

cnocbui wrote: »

That is actually really simple. Some families went on holiday. The resort they were staying at offered a nanny service - which was someone going around to their rooms and checking on their kids, from time to time. One evening the parents decided to do this themselves and checked on the kids from time to time, while they were socialising. On one of those checks, Madeleine McCann was not in her room and was missing.

Surprising as it may seem, that is pretty much all that is known. There is no evidence as to why she was missing

Absolutely true - I agree entirely. But we have constant vitriol aimed at the parents. Its appalling and sad.

iamwhoiam

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

cnocbui wrote: »

That is actually really simple. Some families went on holiday. The resort they were staying at offered a nanny service - which was someone going around to their rooms and checking on their kids, from time to time. One evening the parents decided to do this themselves and checked on the kids from time to time, while they were socialising. On one of those checks, Madeleine McCann was not in her room and was missing.

Surprising as it may seem, that is pretty much all that is known. There is no evidence as to why she was missing

Actually you are wrong . That particular Mark Warner did not offer the person going around checking . As the PdaLuz resort is spread out and not enclosed it was considered not to be safe . In PdaL they offered a baby sitter service on site in the creche , that was free to anyone staying there . They also offered an in your apartment nanny sitting service for a fee . Both were not used by the Mc Canns .

cnocbui

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

jimwallace197 wrote: »

I dont think they were involved in her dissapearance only insofar as they were negligent in their responsibility to her which I feel they have extreme guilt over.

I've read and seen alot of the theories of them being involved and its all fairly light, I really dont believe both of them could keep up an act like this for this long without one or the other cracking.

The investigation was haphazard at best and really showed the ineptitude of the portugese police who in fairness wouldnt have come across many cases like this.

I believe either it was an inside job of where one of the staff at the hotel tipped off someone or they were watched over a number of days and the careless attitude of the parents was noticed.

I don't think the parents were negligent. The actual incidence of strangers abducting children from their bed is incredibly rare - probably the chance is one in 100 million. The chances of a kids dying in a traffic accident are far higher, yet no one considers parents irresponsible for endangering their children by taking them somewhere in a car.

You have one set of parents who took one almost nonexistent risk and the internet comes down on their heads - you have countless thousands of parents who take far higher risks - every single day - and no one bats an eyelash.

cnocbui

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Actually you are wrong . That particular Mark Warner did not offer the person going around checking . As the PdaLuz resort is spread out and not enclosed it was considered not to be safe . In PdaL they offered a baby sitter service on site in the creche , that was free to anyone staying there . They also offered an in your apartment nanny sitting service for a fee . Both were not used by the Mc Canns .

You are right, I miss remembered, it being such a long time ago now.

iamwhoiam

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

cnocbui wrote: »

I don't think the parents were negligent. The actual incidence of strangers abducting children from their bed is incredibly rare - probably the chance is one in 100 million. The chances of a kids dying in a traffic accident are far higher, yet nocone considers parents irresponsible for endangering their children by taking them somewhere in a car.

You have one set of parents who took one almost nonexistent risk and the internet comes down on their heads - you have countless thousands of parents who take far higher risks - every single day - and no one bats an eyelash.

Forget the very low risk of abduction so . What about the risk of crying , vomiting , falling , choking , having a nightmare and needing a hug , a fever or a febrile convulsion and not heard ?
Two doctors dismissed all those risks to go out and have dinner with mates . Shame on them

Deusexmachina

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Forget the very low risk of abduction so . What about the risk of crying , vomiting , falling , choking , having a nightmare and needing a hug , a fever or a febrile convulsion and not heard ?
Two doctors dismissed all those risks to go out and have dinner with mates . Shame on them

Have they not been punished enough?

pc7

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Mod note

Hi All

I know this is an emotive topic, just be mindful to be respectful to each other. We really are hoping for low moderation in here and generally just on the side of law if any modding is needed. Any issues with a post just report it.

thanks.

iamwhoiam

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Have they not been punished enough?

I am not punishing them i am posting an opinion

iamwhoiam

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Have they not been punished enough?

I am not punishing them i am posting an opinion

Deusexmachina

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I am not punishing them i am posting an opinion

I didn't suggest that you are. I am asking you if you think the loss of their little girl is punishment enough for the negligence?
Is it really fair for people to keep castigating them? "Shame on them"

gerrybbadd

Something Else

The parents definitely know something. Why would Kate refuse to answer ANY questions that would help in the investigation?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1041635/The-48-questions-Kate-McCann-wouldnt-answer--did.html

Great video here of body language analysis from a Ted talk, spliced with McCann interviews. Obvious tells here. They're lying

tretorn

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

cnocbui wrote: »

I don't think the parents were negligent. The actual incidence of strangers abducting children from their bed is incredibly rare - probably the chance is one in 100 million. The chances of a kids dying in a traffic accident are far higher, yet no one considers parents irresponsible for endangering their children by taking them somewhere in a car.

You have one set of parents who took one almost nonexistent risk and the internet comes down on their heads - you have countless thousands of parents who take far higher risks - every single day - and no one bats an eyelash.

The parents left three children alone and went off eating tapas and drinking wine.

Dont compare this to parents putting their children into cars to go from A to B.

Parents with a titter of wit between their ears would either get a babysitter or else one or other would stay in the aprtment with the twins while the other ate. The person who ate would then return to the apartment to let the other parent out for a couple of drinks.

This was supposed to be a family holiday, ie spending time with your children, not getting them to bed early so they could be left alone. Why didnt they just leave the children at home if they wanted to socialise every night without their three under threes.