Madeleine McCann

splinter65

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Yet I have not resorted to lying or twisting the words of others I disagree with, the fact I don't resort to your behaviour gives me credibility. Do as you wish you don't need my consent or permission. ;-)

As this is an opinion based forum then no one person has any more credibility then anyone else. I didn’t ask for your consent or permission to do anything as you don’t have any more authority then me.

Plumbthedepths

splinter65 wrote:

As this is an opinion based forum then no one person has any more credibility then anyone else. I didn’t ask for your consent or permission to do anything as you don’t have any more authority then me.

Never claimed to have any authority, just curious why do you feel the need to lie and twist the comments of other posters?

iamwhoiam

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

I think the Mc Canns certainely are partly responsible for what happened . They failed to ensure the safety of the children and so are at fault . If I fail to put a toddler in a car seat and am in an crash resulting in the childs death then I am partly to blame for not ensuring his safety

Plumbthedepths

iamwhoiam wrote:

I think the Mc Canns certainely are partly responsible for what happened . They failed to ensure the safety of the children and so are at fault . If I fail to put a toddler in a car seat and am in an crash resulting in the childs death then I am partly to blame for not ensuring his safety

Of course they are , they neglected their children on May 3rd when then went to the restaurant with their mates.

Trekker09

limnam wrote: »

As a parent you cannot protect your kids from everything.


What you can do is your best and act with their safety at the forefront of everything you do. Especially so young. Especially in unfamiliar surroundings.


Heading of to a restaurant drinking with your pals leaving the kids in unsecured apartment that has public access is the complete opposite of the above. Selfishness/carelessness/negligent.


If this was there only mistake and everything afterwards was them acting in the best interest of the kids. I could probably find a way to put it to one side. So many questionable actions after it that you at some point run out of passes to give them.


I don't know if they're involved or not, but there actions before and after are all wrong.

I really think that they understand the gravity of their mistake. What I can't accept is your binary view of the situation. i have no doubt that everything they do is for the best interest of all of their kids. I can see nothing in their behaviour or demeanour that suggests that they are lovable parents that are paying an enormous price for a parenting mistake.

I don't like the mistake they made but my heart goes out to them.

Trekker09

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Of course they are , they neglected their children on May 3rd when then went to the restaurant with their mates.

According to the documentary, there is at least one case where an intruder broke into properties in that area while both parents were in bed asleep. The abductors studied the behaviour of tourists in the area and exploited these behaviours into opportunities.

splinter65

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Never claimed to have any authority, just curious why do you feel the need to lie and twist the comments of other posters?

In your last post you felt the need to assure me that I could post without your permission. That’s rather odd and disturbing. If you could point out the “lies” that I’ve told maybe I could address your concerns?
Remember, me having a different view point to yours doesn’t make my viewpoint a “lie”. Points you don’t agree with aren’t “lies”. But go ahead.

Plumbthedepths

splinter65 wrote:

But they weren’t left alone. They were being checked every half hour.

Hmmm.......

Plumbthedepths

Plumbthedepths wrote:

Yet I have not resorted to lying or twisting the words of others I disagree with, the fact I don't resort to your behaviour gives me credibility. Do as you wish you don't need my consent or permission. ;-)

splinter65 wrote:

In your last post you felt the need to assure me that I could post without your permission. That’s rather odd and disturbing. If you could point out the “lies†that I’ve told maybe I could address your concerns? Remember, me having a different view point to yours doesn’t make my viewpoint a “lieâ€. Points you don’t agree with aren’t “liesâ€. But go ahead.

I'll just leave this here, not sure what you are attempting with your reply.

Plumbthedepths

Murat and Malinka got treated appallingly by all involved in the McCannn case.

Plumbthedepths

Trekker09 wrote:

According to the documentary, there is at least one case where an intruder broke into properties in that area while both parents were in bed asleep. The abductors studied the behaviour of tourists in the area and exploited these behaviours into opportunities.

What abductors? There is no proof of an abductor/abductors.

limnam

Trekker09 wrote: »

I really think that they understand the gravity of their mistake. What I can't accept is your binary view of the situation. i have no doubt that everything they do is for the best interest of all of their kids. I can see nothing in their behaviour or demeanour that suggests that they are lovable parents that are paying an enormous price for a parenting mistake.

I don't like the mistake they made but my heart goes out to them.

Leaving 3 kids under 4 in an unsecured apartment with public access while you go drinking with your buddies is not acting in the best interest of the kids.


Not then.
Not now.
Not ever.

limnam

Trekker09 wrote: »

According to the documentary, there is at least one case where an intruder broke into properties in that area while both parents were in bed asleep. The abductors studied the behaviour of tourists in the area and exploited these behaviours into opportunities.

So lets go drinking with our pals in the restraunt and leave the kids alone because, well. They could be taken while we're asleep anyway.


Stunning work.

griffinlee

Something Else

whilst im not detective, my opinion is
child woke up & (or was playing before they left), began playing in the sitting room, jumping on the couch the way every other child jumps and plays. the child was on top of the couch and slipped/fell towards the back, injuring herself, possibly breaking her neck. this would fall into line with how the sniffer dogs detected the scent at the back of the couch.
the parents panicked and knew they were to blame,child was dead& covered it up. however i have no idea how where and when the body was moved

Trekker09

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

What abductors? There is no proof of an abductor/abductors.

So what happened to Madeleine then?

iamwhoiam

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Trekker09 wrote: »

So what happened to Madeleine then?

Well thats what we all would like to know . But there is no evidence of an abductor and so it is not a fact that there was one

Trekker09

limnam wrote: »

Leaving 3 kids under 4 in an unsecured apartment with public access while you go drinking with your buddies is not acting in the best interest of the kids.


Not then.
Not now.
Not ever.

You're like a broken record! They made a dreadful mistake, we know it and they know it. They went for a bite to eat with a couple of glasses of wine, still wrong but hardly bar crawling.

limnam

Trekker09 wrote: »

You're like a broken record! They made a dreadful mistake, we know it and they know it. They went for a bite to eat with a couple of glasses of wine, still wrong but hardly bar crawling.

A dreadful mistake.


Yet hardly bar crawling.


What difference does it make. They left 3 kids under 4 in an unsecured apartment that can be accessed publicly while they sat in a restaurant eating and drinking.


Downplay it all you like. It's not dreadful because it wasn't that bad.

Trekker09

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Well thats what we all would like to know . But there is no evidence of an abductor and so it is not a fact that there was one

So if she wasn't taken then the McCanns killed her? Sorry, but in my view they had nothing intentionally to do with her disappearance.

limnam

Trekker09 wrote: »

So if she wasn't taken then the McCanns killed her? Sorry, but in my view they had nothing intentionally to do with her disappearance.

You give out about people having binary views yet you seem pretty set in yours.

Plumbthedepths

Trekker09 wrote:

So what happened to Madeleine then?

No idea, same as pretty much everyone else. Which is way I made no claim as to what happened to her.

Trekker09

Trekker09 wrote: »

You're like a broken record! They made a dreadful mistake, we know it and they know it. They went for a bite to eat with a couple of glasses of wine, still wrong but hardly bar crawling.

It's more than wrong imo. How anyone could sit down and eat/drink while their babies are alone in another building is just unbelievable, even if they're upstairs at home you wouldn't run to the shop, I just can't get my head around that part of the story and it's the reason behind whatever happened no matter what you believe to have happened on the night.

splinter65

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Murat and Malinka got treated appallingly by all involved in the McCannn case.

Who treated them badly?

Plumbthedepths

Trekker09 wrote:

You're like a broken record! They made a dreadful mistake, we know it and they know it. They went for a bite to eat with a couple of glasses of wine, still wrong but hardly bar crawling.

According to reports at the time, the McCanns left their children alone for the 3 nights prior to her disappearance.

iamwhoiam

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Trekker09 wrote: »

So if she wasn't taken then the McCanns killed her? Sorry, but in my view they had nothing intentionally to do with her disappearance.

I have no idea actually . What I do know is that I have an open mind as no evidence of anything is proven . Nothing can be ruled out as no clues or any leads were ever found
My own opinion is that it was an inside job , the group had pre booked a table for 5 nights . The pattern was easy to see and was easy to spot that children were alone . The Mc Canns apartment was vulnerable and closest to the public road . It wouldn't take much to spot an opportunity to snatch a child , into a car and gone into the mountains north of P da L before the next check was even due
But thats only my opinion and certainly wouldn't proclaim it as fact

Trekker09

limnam wrote: »

A dreadful mistake.


Yet hardly bar crawling


What difference does it make. They left 3 kids under 4 in an unsecured apartment that can be accessed publicly while they sat in a restaurant eating and drinking.


Downplay it all you like. It's not dreadful because it wasn't that bad.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I haven't downplayed it, but like most tragedies it's a combination of various factors, some of which you can control and others that you can't. Most people can't be 100% perfect 100% al of the time, and yes, our judgement can suck at times, but fortunately most of us don't have to deal with the consequences that the McCanns have had to face.

Plumbthedepths

splinter65 wrote:

Who treated them badly?

Police,Media detective agency working for the McCanns etc etc. Murat received over 600,000 for liable against him and an apology in court.

Calltocall

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I have no idea actually . What I do know is that I have an open mind as no evidence of anything is proven . Nothing can be ruled out as no clues or any leads were ever found
My own opinion is that it was an inside job , the group had pre booked a table for 5 nights . The pattern was easy to see and was easy to spot that children were alone . The Mc Canns apartment was vulnerable and closest to the public road . It wouldn't take much to spot an opportunity to snatch a child , into a car and gone into the mountains north of P da L before the next check was even due
But thats only my opinion and certainly wouldn't proclaim it as fact

I agree, I’ve thought that before, somebody must have been watching them, their patterns at the evening meals etc how long of a gap they left before checking on the kids otherwise it was seriously risky as the abductor could have walked in when kate and gerry were there, too high risk without knowing they definitely wouldn’t be there so he must have observed them it’s just odd that nobody would have spotted a lone person watching them particularly if he had been watching them for a few nights, such a strange case that in all these years not one solid lead has emerged

Wombatman

Should have at least used the babysitting service that was available.

What do people make of Kate's body language in the very first press address? Didn't look up once. If I was in appeal mode I'd be looking right at you with my face forward. If I had something to hide I might be looking at my shoes. Maybe it was just the shame of knowing she neglected her daughter by leaving her exposed.

Trekker09

limnam wrote: »

You give out about people having binary views yet you seem pretty set in yours.

On this subject I have changed my views several times over the years and who knows what my opinion will be in the future. What I have done is weighed up the probabilities, options and different scenarios and this reflects my current view of the situation.

Most of what I've seen in this thread is people fighting over pedantics rather than the details of teh case.

Trekker09

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I have no idea actually . What I do know is that I have an open mind as no evidence of anything is proven . Nothing can be ruled out as no clues or any leads were ever found
My own opinion is that it was an inside job , the group had pre booked a table for 5 nights . The pattern was easy to see and was easy to spot that children were alone . The Mc Canns apartment was vulnerable and closest to the public road . It wouldn't take much to spot an opportunity to snatch a child , into a car and gone into the mountains north of P da L before the next check was even due
But thats only my opinion and certainly wouldn't proclaim it as fact

In my view this is the likeliest scenario.

iamwhoiam

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Calltocall wrote: »

I agree, I’ve thought that before, somebody must have been watching them, their patterns at the evening meals etc how long of a gap they left before checking on the kids otherwise it was seriously risky as the abductor could have walked in when kate and gerry were there, too high risk without knowing they definitely wouldn’t be there so he must have observed them it’s just odd that nobody would have spotted a lone person watching them particularly if he had been watching them for a few nights, such a strange case that in all these years not one solid lead has emerged

Maybe he or she were staff and as such wouldn't be noticed . The front of the house ( side away from the Tapas ) is quite sheltered . Trees shade it and a small car parking area in front of it . Maybe someone had a key or maybe they went in the unlocked patio and took a child and out the front door into a car and gone .
Apart from passerbys of which there wouldn't be many the best view of the front of the apartment is from the balconys of the apartment block behind it
But on a chilly evening in May it is quite possible that no one was sitting out that evening
I could see that it was a perfect storm and there is just no solid lead

SusieBlue

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Wombatman wrote: »

Should have at least used the babysitting service that was available.

What do people make of Kate's body language in the very first press address? Didn't look up once. If I was in appeal mode I'd be looking right at you with my face forward. If I had something to hide I might be looking at my shoes. Maybe it was just the shame of knowing she neglected her daughter by leaving her exposed.

Unless you’ve personally had to hold a press conference to publicly appeal for information about your missing child you are in no position to be making statements about what way you would or wouldn’t behave.
Unless you actually have experience in being in a similar situation (and I truly hope you haven’t) you are just speculating.
There is no handbook to how you should act when something like that happens to you.

FWIW, having just watched the documentary all I see in Kate is a broken woman, struggling to hold it together.
She seems to be on the brink of a total emotional breakdown in every piece of footage I’ve seen of her.

Calltocall

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Trekker09 wrote: »

In my view this is the likeliest scenario.

One thing from the documentary that stood out to me and I personally felt it had credibility was the reports of the guy who was fund raising for the orphanage, there was also a report of a lady running a guy out of her home who was talking to her three year old who had called to her home with the story that he was fund raising for an orphanage in praya de luz not long before Madeliene went missing his likeness was similar to the description given by jane tanner, long dark hair similar build etc, It just fizzles out in the doc without saying how thoroughly it was followed up but apparently there were four reports of someone fundraising for an orphanage on the same day that Madeliene went missing, there were no orphanages in the vicinity of praya de luz

limnam

Trekker09 wrote: »

Stop putting words in my mouth. I haven't downplayed it, but like most tragedies it's a combination of various factors, some of which you can control and others that you can't. Most people can't be 100% perfect 100% al of the time, and yes, our judgement can suck at times, but fortunately most of us don't have to deal with the consequences that the McCanns have had to face.

Sure, we can't be perfect all the time as parents. Hardest job in the world.


What we can do 100% of the time. Is not go to a restaurant leaving 3 kids under 4 home alone in an unsecured apartment with public access while we go out wining and dining.


At the very least kids can expect this of their parents no ?

Trekker09

Calltocall wrote: »

One thing from the documentary that stood out to me and I personally felt it had credibility was the reports of the guy who was fund raising for the orphanage, there was also a report of a lady running a guy out of her home who was talking to her three year old who had called to her home with the story that he was fund raising for an orphanage in praya de luz not long before Madeliene went missing his likeness was similar to the description given by jane tanner, long dark hair similar build etc, It just fizzles out in the doc without saying how thoroughly it was followed up but apparently there were four reports of someone fundraising for an orphanage on the same day that Madeliene went missing, there were no orphanages in the vicinity of praya de luz

Yes, that stuck in my mind too. Also, the McCann group made a block booking for the same time every evening. This was recorded by a staff member and the reason given was it was convenient for the group with keeping an eye on the children who were sleeping. This booking log was apparently left on the reception desk for all to see.

Trekker09

limnam wrote: »

Sure, we can't be perfect all the time as parents. Hardest job in the world.


What we can do 100% of the time. Is not go to a restaurant leaving 3 kids under 4 home alone in an unsecured apartment with public access while we go out wining and dining.


At the very least kids can expect this of their parents no ?

Lets just keep judging them on that then, job done!!

Plumbthedepths

Trekker09 wrote:

Lets just keep judging them on that then, job done!!

Easy to judge them on that as they left the children alone on several occasions, yet there was a childminder service available including a late evening crèche.

limnam

Trekker09 wrote: »

Lets just keep judging them on that then, job done!!

Better than trying to make moronic excuses for neglectful behavior and brush it under the carpet.


Poor kate and Gerry eh.



Poor bloodie "maddie".

Trekker09

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Easy to judge them on that as they left the children alone on several occasions, yet there was a childminder service available including a late evening crèche.

Hope we can all shine the judgement light on ourselves and come up squeaky clean.

limnam

Trekker09 wrote: »

Hope we can all shine the judgement light on ourselves and come up squeaky clean.

We don't need to come up sqeuaky clean


Every parent makes mistakes.


You just have to not leave your kids under 4 home alone while you're out drinking.


Simples.

Trekker09

limnam wrote: »

Better than trying to make moronic excuses for neglectful behavior and brush it under the carpet.


Poor kate and Gerry eh.



Poor bloodie "maddie".

Where have I made 'moronic' excuses? I also doubt it can be brushed under the carpet now can it?

And yes. poor Kate and Gerry, and Maddie plus the twins. My heart goes out to all of them and their current situation and I hope for the best outcome for them.

It's not up to me to judge them for their mistake.

Plumbthedepths

Trekker09 wrote:

Hope we can all shine the judgement light on ourselves and come up squeaky clean.

Considering I never left my kids alone whilst on holidays , yeah squeaky clean.

Trekker09

limnam wrote: »

We don't need to come up sqeuaky clean


Every parent makes mistakes.


You just have to not leave your kids under 4 home alone while you're out drinking.


Simples.

As I said, broken record.


You are hell bent on portraying them as going out boozing, they went out for a bite to eat and a few drinks.

splinter65

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Well thats what we all would like to know . But there is no evidence of an abductor and so it is not a fact that there was one

There’s no evidence that there wasn’t an abductor either. Hence, an abductor can’t be discounted. I think an abductor took Maddie. I think he watched from the shadows and he knew that that was probably the last check and he ran up the stairs and took her. What do you think happened?

Plumbthedepths

Trekker09 wrote:

You are hell bent on portraying them as going out boozing, they went out for a bite to eat and a few drinks.

....4 evenings in a row . While the children were left on their own.

iamwhoiam

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Trekker09 wrote: »

As I said, broken record.


You are hell bent on portraying them as going out boozing, they went out for a bite to eat and a few drinks.

In fairness even if they went out to read a book by the pool I see no difference . The fact they left three kids alone for their own selfish reason is what matters

splinter65

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Police,Media detective agency working for the McCanns etc etc. Murat received over 600,000 for liable against him and an apology in court.

None of that is the fault of the McCann family nor was it their responsibility to sort it out.

limnam

Trekker09 wrote: »

As I said, broken record.

The broken record giving out about a broken record

Trekker09 wrote: »

You are hell bent on portraying them as going out boozing, they went out for a bite to eat and a few drinks.

I guess if it was just a bite to eat and a few drinks while their kids were left home alone in an unsecured apartment with public access in a foriegn country.


That's ok then.

Trekker09

Trekker09 wrote: »

As I said, broken record.


You are hell bent on portraying them as going out boozing, they went out for a bite to eat and a few drinks.

As all other parents do when on holidays, do you think that it's normal behaviour to leave babies alone while doing so, that's the difference.People bring the children out with them, it's the norm in all family orientated holiday destinations.