Madeleine McCann

Plumbthedepths

splinter65 wrote:

None of that is the fault of the McCann family nor was it their responsibility to sort it out.

The detective agency was employed by the McCanns.

iamwhoiam

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As all other parents do when on holidays, do you think that it's normal behaviour to leave babies alone while doing so, that's the difference.People bring the children out with them, it's the norm in all family orientated holiday destinations.

We ate a few times in the Millennium in P da L . Buggies were lined up and kids at tables or asleep in prams . Its what responsible parents do

Trekker09

limnam wrote: »

The broken record giving out about a broken record




I guess if it was just a bite to eat and a few drinks while their kids were left home alone in an unsecured apartment with public access in a foriegn country.


That's ok then.

*Stops banging head against wall

Re-read my posts. I do not think it's OK that they left the kids alone, but neither do I think that they are terrible parents because of it. The consequences are horrific and I'm really surprised that they chose that option.

The fact is that the group did choose this option and no amount of 'I told you so' will change the situation.

What does scare me is that, from my experience, it still happens . I have also witnessed families staying out till the early hours with the kids asleep on chairs.

Trekker09

Deleted User wrote: »

As all other parents do when on holidays, do you think that it's normal behaviour to leave babies alone while doing so, that's the difference.People bring the children out with them, it's the norm in all family orientated holiday destinations.

As I've previously stated, no I don't think it's OK to leave kids alone.

dark crystal

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

griffinlee wrote: »

whilst im not detective, my opinion is
child woke up & (or was playing before they left), began playing in the sitting room, jumping on the couch the way every other child jumps and plays. the child was on top of the couch and slipped/fell towards the back, injuring herself, possibly breaking her neck. this would fall into line with how the sniffer dogs detected the scent at the back of the couch.
the parents panicked and knew they were to blame,child was dead& covered it up. however i have no idea how where and when the body was moved

And then the parents just forensically cleaned the room, hid the body somewhere in an unfamiliar setting, carefully planned the kidnap scenario between them and then went down to the Tapas bar to eat dinner with their friends whilst acting perfectly normally. A lot to fit in within that timeline! Like you say, where did they hide her/ dispose of her within the timeframe, somewhere so well hidden, she has never been found? In a country they had virtually no geographical knowledge of?



Madeleine dying in the apartment doesn't make any sense, either practically or logistically in my opinion.

scamalert

why did all McCanns friends distance themselves from any publicity as fast as they could, given all of them had almost same age kids.


why parents had no issue to drop kids off to creche during day, yet while on a piss each night they didnt bother to fork out few euro for babysitter.


why did they change the story several times on how 7 people went to check on kids every 20 minutes to 1h apart, show.


leaving gates open to main street and apartments is no brainer even for most stupidest parents. when access could been easily gained trough resort entrance.


wont make claims parents did anything in disappearance but also lack of their explanations or any rationale raises just more questions that never been answered in any rational sense.


according to them child appeared missing at 10, cops showed up around 12 and all went to sleep at 4, if a dog went missing id understand, giving up on kid after 6 hours seems negligence on all parties involved.


thou i do understand rationale why cops put low priority on it given seclusion and pissed parents who wouldnt be news to any holiday place to encounter just because they had to much booze and were out of their heads at the time, as to wonder if kid might of wondered off looking for them and fallen to sleep somewhere, wouldn't bee odd.

Airyfairy12

I thought the documentary was very biased, not saying the parents killed her - the level of negligence by the police is astounding and literally anything could have happened but the documentary left out so many details about the parents, like the mother washing cuddle cat.
The parents didnt ask the twins if they saw or heard anything.
The documentary explained the blood but they didnt explain the smell of dead body.
Their friend Jane didnt come forward with information about seeing the man carrying a child for days into the investigation because she "didnt want to upset Kate and Gerry".
Kate had previously described Maddy as a difficult, attention seeking child and that she was a bad sleeper, she would cry through the night, get out of bed and at home had a star chart where she got a star for every night she stayed in her own bed, yet she left her alone in an unsecure apartment knowing she often woke up in the night and got out of bed.
The woman living above the apartment said she heard maddy crying for over an hour the night before and nobody came to sooth her. - Maddy asked her parents why nobody had come when she cried.
They spent part of the donations for the investigation on paying off their mortgage 5 months after maddy went missing, they also spent 124K from donations on PR consultants and media campaign management to make them look good in the media and most of it is going on suing anyone besides Kate that releases a book about the case.
People who've read Kates book said that its very strange and uncomfortable to read, Kate mostly talks about herself in the book and goes into detail about a day in Portugal during the investigation where they went to a dinner party in their new friend Clement Frueds house - A known pedophile. She talks about how nice the dinner was, how she never had a salad as nice as it before, how they had strawberry vodka and how she felt better after Clement made a joke about the investigation which lightened the mood.
Theres a quote from the book in which Kate said she was having thoughts of Madeline's "perfect little genitals being torn apart". That's a very disturbing and strange way to talk about your missing child.

They are terrible, weird and neglectful parents, they shouldnt have children.

splinter65

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

iamwhoiam wrote: »

In fairness even if they went out to read a book by the pool I see no difference . The fact they left three kids alone for their own selfish reason is what matters

It’s the only thing apparently that matters to you. Others are able to see a bigger picture but you just have this narrow picture where, if there was an abductor, he is almost blameless as you have decided that no one else is responsible except her parents.
The fact that they apparently had no intent to harm and all the evidence shows that they were loving caring generous kind hardworking conscientious parents is to be totally wiped out in one sweep over a misjudgment. The fact that they have undoubtably suffered horrendously and been punished every day since appears not to be enough for you either and your very real and profound anger over this is unabated even all these years later despite not knowing the McCanns and knowing very little about them.
But that’s your opinion and your entitled to it.

Plumbthedepths

splinter65 wrote:

It’s the only thing apparently that matters to you. Others are able to see a bigger picture but you just have this narrow picture where, if there was an abductor, he is almost blameless as you have decided that no one else is responsible except her parents. The fact that they apparently had no intent to harm and all the evidence shows that they were loving caring generous kind hardworking conscientious parents is to be totally wiped out in one sweep over a misjudgment. The fact that they have undoubtably suffered horrendously and been punished every day since appears not to be enough for you either and your very real and profound anger over this is unabated even all these years later despite not knowing the McCanns and knowing very little about them. But that’s your opinion and your entitled to it.

How is leaving your 3 young children alone while off wining and dining with your mates, conscientious?

Trekker09

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

....4 evenings in a row . While the children were left on their own.

You do know that they made a block booking for the week there?

Airyfairy12

Trekker09 wrote: »

You do know that they made a block booking for the week there?

There was enough of them there, they could have very easily taken it in turns to stay in with the kids.

Plumbthedepths

Trekker09 wrote:

You do know that they made a block booking for the week there?

Your point?

Trekker09

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

There was enough of them there, they could have very easily taken it in turns to stay in with the kids.

How would that work? They all had different apartments.

Trekker09

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Your point?

'....4 evenings in a row . While the children were left on their own.'

My point is glaringly obvious I would have thought

I’m on episode 5 gonna finish the rest tonight my take so far is this

They left the children alone a lot and I agree they did and they would drug the kids to keep them quite or just Maddie and maybe they have her an overdose by accident but then again we’ll never know.

They should of been charged with child neglect

Plumbthedepths

Airyfairy12 wrote:

There was enough of them there, they could have very easily taken it in turns to stay in with the kids.

They could have used the available child minding service.

Trekker09

Deleted User wrote: »

I’m on episode 5 gonna finish the rest tonight my take so far is this

They left the children alone a lot and I agree they did and they would drug the kids to keep them quite or just Maddie and maybe they have her an overdose by accident but then again we’ll never know.

They should of been charged with child neglect

Where is the evidence of them drugging the children?

Spanish Eyes

If, as some have suggested that the apartment was being "cased out" by whomever, well then, why did the so called abductor/s not take all three children?

I do not believe in the abduction theory at at all. Sorry about that.

Airyfairy12

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

If, as some have suggested that the apartment was being "cased out" by whomever, well then, why did the so called abductor/s not take all three children?

I do not believe in the abduction theory at at all. Sorry about that.

Apparently its more common for abductors to go for little girls around maddys age.

Plumbthedepths

Trekker09 wrote:

My point is glaringly obvious I would have thought

Nope it's not.

Trekker09

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Nope it's not.

Really?

Plumbthedepths

Plumbthedepths wrote:

Nope it's not.

Trekker09 wrote:

Really?

Yes really.

Trekker09

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Yes really.

Ah well then

the_pen_turner

Something Else

some questions we want aswered

48 questions I would like Kate McCann to answer.

1. Why did you not physically search for Madeleine?
2. Why did you leave the twins when you realised Madeleine was missing, risking them also being taken?
3. What did you mean by 'they've taken her'. Who's 'they' Kate?
4. Why did you refuse to answer police questioning that could have helped find your daughter?
5. At the time, Gordon Brown was Chancellor of the Exchequer, not the Foreign Secretary. So why did he put so much pressure on the Portuguese police?
6. Why did you wash cuddle cat?
7. Where is Madeleine's pink blanket now, we know it was on her bed 4th May?
8. Why did you lie about the shutters being smashed/jemmied/broken?
9. Why did you change your original statement from the door being locked to the door being unlocked?
10. Why did you presume Madeleine had been abducted when there was no evidence to suggest she had been?
11. What happened to the blue sports bag that was in your wardrobe?
12. Why didn't the twins wake up the night Madeleine disappeared when there were people constantly walking in and out of their room?
13. Why did you dismiss the dogs evidence knowing that they had been right in at least 200 cases?
14. Why was Madeleine's DNA found in the boot of the hire car that had been hired 24 days after her disappearance?
15. How could you and Gerry find it in you to laugh/jog/play tennis days after your daughters disappearance?
16. Why did you get the media involved so early on ignoring the advise from the Portuguese police?
17. Why did it take 45 minutes for the police to be called?
18. Why are there so many inconsistency in all of your statements?
19. Why were the checks more consistent on the night Madeleine was reported missing?
20. Why was Madeleine crying for an hour and 15 minutes even though phone records prove Kate was in the apartment 3 minutes before?
21. Why did you hire Carter Ruck lawyers, especially the one that specialised in extraditions?
22. Why has only 10% of the fund been spent on the search?
23. Why did you suppress the E-Fits that are being used in the current investigation, is it because the Smiths identified your husband as the man they saw carrying Madeleine towards the beach the night of Madeleine's disappearance?
24. Why is your online shop still up and running even though there is 2 ongoing investigations?
25. Why did the government assign their spin doctor to control what is said about you in the media less than 24 hours after Madeleine's disappearance?
26. Why did you leave Portugal so quickly after being made arguidos?
27. Why did you lie about cuddle cat being high up on a shelf?
28. What on earth did you mean by this comment - "The police don't want a murder in Portugal and all the publicity about them not having paedophile laws here, so they're blaming us,"?
29. Why did you celebrate Madeleine's 4th birthday, shouldn't you have been searching?
30. Why is the fund not registered with the Charities Commission?
31. Why do you think it's acceptable to talk about your child's 'perfect genitals being torn apart' in your book?
32. Why is there no mention of Katerina Gaspers statement in your book, accusing David Payne of making inappropriate comments about your child to your husband?
33. Why did you draw so much attention to Madeleine's eye after the PJ warned you it could push the 'abductors' to harm her?
34. Why did you discount Mrs Fenns account of the crying?
35. What files does Theresa May have that she refuses to share with Portugal?
36. Why did you refuse to do reconstruction?
37. Why have you said you wish Gonçalo to be miserable and feel fear, he did everything possible to search for your child until he uncovered the truth of what you did to her?
38. Why were you happy with courting the media as long as they only reported an abduction?
39. Why are you suing people that are asking questions or purporting a theory?
40. Why did you spend £100K getting the police files translated but haven't released them?
41. Will you refund anyone who gave donations who have now read the evidence, should they want one?
42. How could the curtains 'Whooosh!' When they were trapped between the bed and the chair?
43. Why did it take you 144 days to get the twins tested to see if they had been sedated the night Madeleine disappeared?
44. What was in Gerry CATS file before it was sanitised?
45. How did the intruder manage to leave no forensic evidence?
46. Why was there no DNA found belonging to Madeleine in the apartment, forcing Gerry to return home to collect her pillowcase?
47. WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU WHILST THE POLICE ARE DIGGING UP LUZ KATE?
48. Why will you go to Portugal to attend the libel trial in the hope of receiving a million pound pay out but not while the police are trying to dig up your child's body?

Ultimate Seduction

Something Else

smelly sock wrote: »

Being a parent i dont think any mother or father could knowingly cover it up and act it out for all these years.

I would say the child was snatched. Any of the missing kids cases is heart breaking.

Being a parent I don't think any father could sexualy abuse kids but it happens, a lot.

Plumbthedepths

Trekker09 wrote:

Ah well then

Had you a point or are you just engaging in nonsense?

Trekker09

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Had you a point or are you just engaging in nonsense?

You said that they went out 4 evenings in a row, which they would do as that made a block booking for the week, which, with kids, makes sense.



No nonsense there, just my sharp razor sharp observation skills

Plumbthedepths

Trekker09 wrote:

You said that they went out 4 evenings in a row, which they would do as that made a block booking for the week, which, with kids, makes sense.

I also said they left their kids alone those four evenings. Leaving your kids alone does not make sense at all.

Plumbthedepths

Trekker09 wrote:

No nonsense there, just my sharp razor sharp observation skills

Well the a I've is nonsense tbh.

Trekker09

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Well the a I've is nonsense tbh.

Smug much?

Spanish Eyes

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Apparently its more common for abductors to go for little girls around maddys age.

She had a sister a year or so younger in the same room.

Look, I know what I am saying is verging on the awfulness of it all, but realistically, if someone wanted to do this, they could have taken all three in the space of a couple of minutes.

I do not believe there was any abduction.

Boom_Bap

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

This nonsense of are they/are they not neglectful is not going to be resolved here and is just leading this thread into the worst back and forth I've ever seen.

Give that line a rest and try discuss other stuff about the case for a while maybe?

chicorytip

Something Else

iamwhoiam wrote: »

The first two sentences of which post are inaccurate ? Mine or yours ?

The mc Canns had not visited Praia da Luz prior to that holiday .
The apartment was not in an enclosed complex. Mark Warner in P da L is spread about over the village

And group mentality doesn't make it right . A whole group made a big mistake and it could well have been any one of them who lost a child

Group mentality does not make it right. Of course,you are correct but if either of us had been parents in a similar situation we may have acted in a similar fashion to the McCann's. Human beings are not computers, programmed to behave appropriately in all circumstances at all times. It's part of the human condition to make mistakes and misjudgements and sometimes these can lead to fatal consequences.

Trekker09

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

She had a sister a year or so younger in the same room.

Look, I know what I am saying is verging on the awfulness of it all, but realistically, if someone wanted to do this, they could have taken all three in the space of a couple of minutes.

I do not believe there was any abduction.

One of the points being put forward is that the human trafficking market is a multi-billion euro business. Children are taken to order, so someone wanted a child matching Madeleines attributes.

Spanish Eyes

Trekker09 wrote: »

One of the points being put forward is that the human trafficking market is a multi-billion euro business. Children are taken to order, so someone wanted a child matching Madeleines attributes.

I give up.

Of all the kids in all the world it was Madeleine, sorry I don't believe it was thus.

iamwhoiam

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

chicorytip wrote: »

Group mentality does not make it right. Of course,you are correct but if either of us had been parents in a similar situation we may have acted in a similar fashion to the McCann's. Human beings are not computers, programmed to behave appropriately in all circumstances at all times. It's part of the human condition to make mistakes and misjudgements and sometimes these can lead to fatal consequences.

No we are not computers but thankfully the vast majority of us make the right calls . And I can absolutely say that I would not have acted in a similar fashion
I would rather die than leave my children alone . I raised three and have grandchildren and never once have ever dreamt of leaving them alone .

My daughter and husband and three other couples went on holidays . They had 6 kids between them . One evening the men went out , next evening the women went out . Or they put all kids asleep in one apartment and stayed on the balcony together . It genuinely is what responsible parents do without even thinking about it

Trekker09

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I give up.

Of all the kids in all the world it was Madeleine, sorry I don't believe it was thus.

I'd suggest googling child abduction and the reasons behind it. It's a massive business and wealthy childless couple are willing to pay huge amounts for a child.
This is just one reason for child abduction, the others are a lot more sinister for me to mention them here.

Airyfairy12

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

She had a sister a year or so younger in the same room.

Look, I know what I am saying is verging on the awfulness of it all, but realistically, if someone wanted to do this, they could have taken all three in the space of a couple of minutes.

I do not believe there was any abduction.

Its hard to know, there was an interview with a local shop keeper who said that theres no way anyone could have run off with a child and not been seen, he said there always so many people around, someone would of had to have seen something.
But there was a couple who where seen running away with a bundle in their arms which was never investigated.
There was also allot of pedophiles in the area, according to the documentary, there had been other young girls maddys age and older that had gone missing or had almost been abducted. supposedly pedophiles who snatch children go for girls maddys age, 2 is too young apparently, theres statistics into the most common ages of girls abducted by peados and age 3 - 12 was high up on the list, they would have gotten allot of money for her. Its very sad. If she's not still alive, I hope it was the parents that killed her and she didnt suffer at the hands of sick freaks. Theres so much evil in the world.

Spanish Eyes

Trekker09 wrote: »

I'd suggest googling child abduction and the reasons behind it. It's a massive business and wealthy childless couple are willing to pay huge amounts for a child.
This is just one reason for child abduction, the others are a lot more sinister for me to mention them here.

I was referring to the theory that only one child was allegedly taken "to order", and why not all three. I shudder really TBH but the fact is, if such nefarious abductions actually happen (haven't heard of many in MSM tbh), then why not take the three children? That is the puzzle for me.

And that is also why I doubt there was any abduction at all really.

iamwhoiam

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I was referring to the theory that only one child was allegedly taken "to order", and why not all three. I shudder really TBH but the fact is, if such nefarious abductions actually happen (haven't heard of many in MSM tbh), then why not take the three children? That is the puzzle for me.

And that is also why I doubt there was any abduction at all really.

It is so much easier to bundle one child and whisk away in a car than to take three and risk been seen . Three small kids are not easy to whisk anywhere

scamalert

on episode 5, and it goes in circles just like here, i doubt how anyone could believe she would be alive 4 weeks after she was gone let alone 4 months or years.


Portuguese made a clear point to stove off media of any details etc, yet they published every minor detail, and within less then a week exploded into international news, if she was alive by any chance that definitely killed the child once it was broadcast worldwide as no one would carry that much risk and heat.


Also why did they go into all the PR spending millions to clear their name ?


innocent people wont flee country nor they will refuse to answer questions if they wanted their child found why not answer to what was asked and move focusing on search, instead once they were named suspected they took next flight home, even thou there was no proof of any kind, so why run ?


theres hundreds questions they never accounted nor answered leading to disappearance and after it, seems eventually they enjoyed more flying on private jet and getting funded for which turned out to be a lost cause.


Most amazing thing is that traveling with toddlers they didnt bother to take proper precautions as in using hotel services for care, rather doing negligence in foreign country they had no clue of, they left doors open and kids alone, i bet they wouldn't left wallets inside open apartment and go drink for the night yet they had no issues with leaving 3 kids which is mind numbing.


As what they did is nothing short of contributing to child's disappearance.



Even guy running interpol agency said he didnt like vibe of Gery.

Spanish Eyes

iamwhoiam wrote: »

It is so much easier to bundle one child and whisk away in a car than to take three and risk been seen . Three small kids are not easy to whisk anywhere

Honestly? The other two kids were oblivious to all the commotion. It would have been a doddle with an accomplice.

There was no abduction. IMV.

iamwhoiam

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Honestly? The other two kids were oblivious to all the commotion. It would have been a doddle with an accomplice.

There was no abduction. IMV.

No , honestly it wouldn't . Even with two people carrying and hiding one child had got to be easier with one . Even going to the shops on a normal day in normal life is easier with one rather three

Trekker09

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Honestly? The other two kids were oblivious to all the commotion. It would have been a doddle with an accomplice.

There was no abduction. IMV.

If there was no abduction then what do you think happened?

Spanish Eyes

Trekker09 wrote: »

If there was no abduction then what do you think happened?

The three kids were administered sleepy anti histamines. Like Piriton. Not illegal at all.

1.Madeleine woke up groggy and looked for her parents. The twins were in cots, she was in a bed. She staggered out one of the many unlocked doors to find them and was knocked down by a car. Local driver disposed of the evidence. She was 3.5 years old FGS.

2. She woke up groggy etc. and went into the living room where she fell off the couch and had a fatal head injury. Cover up.

3. She woke and wandered and fell in to the sea or roadworks or whatever.

What do YOU think happened? Abduction is the least possible outcome IMV.

Trekker09

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The three kids were administered sleepy anti histamines. Like Piriton. Not illegal at all.

1.Madeleine woke up groggy and looked for her parents. The twins were in cots, she was in a bed. She staggered out one of the many unlocked doors to find them and was knocked down by a car. Local driver disposed of the evidence. She was 3.5 years old FGS.

2. She woke up groggy etc. and went into the living room where she fell off the couch and had a fatal head injury. Cover up.

3. She woke and wandered and fell in to the sea or roadworks or whatever.

What do YOU think happened? Abduction is the least possible outcome IMV.

While all of the above are possible, I can't really see them being probable.

I firmly believe that she was abducted.

gozunda

Something Else

Trekker09 wrote: »

I'd suggest googling child abduction and the reasons behind it. It's a massive business and wealthy childless couple are willing to pay huge amounts for a child.
This is just one reason for child abduction, the others are a lot more sinister for me to mention them here.

For these type of issues Google is most likley not your friend ...

From the Sunday Independent Article of today

DCI Sutton (ex Scotland Yard) believes that while theories about child trafficking and targeted abduction might make for spine-tingling drama, they are always the least likley hypotheses with these cases. "I understand that the notion that there are these predatory groups who are stealing children is something that is attractive in terms of selling newspapers and TV programmes, but I'm not sure in the real world how common an occurrence that is"

splinter65

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Honestly? The other two kids were oblivious to all the commotion. It would have been a doddle with an accomplice.

There was no abduction. IMV.

If you don’t think there was an abduction then you must have a theory as to what happened and how and where and when and why. What is it?

Trekker09

........also, when my kids were that age and we were away, we never had any problem getting them to sleep. Sea air, loads of activity etc, they were out as soon as their head hit the pillow

splinter65

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Honestly? The other two kids were oblivious to all the commotion. It would have been a doddle with an accomplice.

There was no abduction. IMV.

That’s ridiculous.
Q :Is it easier and quicker and quieter to abduct 1 child or 3?
Spanish eyes: 3.
?????