Ireland’s justice system - why is it such a joke?

Honestly, when chaps can cut about robbing and taking drugs left and right without ever seeing the inside of a cell bar a few hours down at the Garda barracks, why bother behaving yourself? And even if you DO manage to land in prison, you’ve got televisions and games consoles to play. “Anti suicide devices”. Is there any other country that is as soft on convicts as Ireland is?

Margaret cash - 39 convictions no prison time served to date for example

I’ve read articles of young lads in court with a hundred or more previous CONVICTIONS not just crimes committed & they get a suspended sentence or told to behave themselves and away with you. Are we afraid to put people in prison?

Silentcorner

Each conviction consists of a legal bill picked up by us the taxpayer under the guise of free legal aid.

The legal sector refuses to be reformed, despite the Troika making that reform one of the conditions of the bailout we received in 2010.

The legal sector makes an absolute fortune on the backs of all those young people, who's lives are pretty much destroyed after the 3rd or 4th conviction, where in this country do you think that bill is at its highest? Why do you think the media never exposes the costs involved and who is benefitting from them?

I’ve said it a few times the past couple of days but a system like the US is what we need to be honest. There’s no bull**** with crimes over there. You can go down for a good number of years for things we’d get yelled at in court and sent away for over here. It honestly feels like unless you murder someone or rape a woman or child you just won’t go to prison. It’s scandalous.

KungPao

Too many do gooders. It’ll come to a head soon. Many people are fed up with the criminals and sponges laughing in our faces.

Blazer

Silentcorner wrote: »

Each conviction consists of a legal bill picked up by us the taxpayer under the guise of free legal aid.

The legal sector refuses to be reformed, despite the Troika making that reform one of the conditions of the bailout we received in 2010.

The legal sector makes an absolute fortune on the backs of all those young people, who's lives are pretty much destroyed after the 3rd or 4th conviction, where in this country do you think that bill is at its highest? Why do you think the media never exposes the costs involved and who is benefitting from them?

And this is it exactly.
Judges, guards, solicitors etc are all creaming it off the state. The whole system is corrupt as hell.

Julien Fancy SleepwearMGS

Julien Fancy SleepwearMGS wrote: »

I’ve said it a few times the past couple of days but a system like the US is what we need to be honest. There’s no bull**** with crimes over there. You can go down for a good number of years for things we’d get yelled at in court and sent away for over here. It honestly feels like unless you murder someone or rape a woman or child you just won’t go to prison. It’s scandalous.

It doesn't reduce crime, though.

Reati

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It doesn't reduce crime, though.

No, but it's good old Christian vengeance and that makes them all feel good!

judeboy101

We have a legal system not a justice system.

Wanderer78

Maybe we need to invest heavily in our social systems to prevent some of the most common issues known amongst criminal populations.

Peregrinus

Julien Fancy SleepwearMGS wrote: »

Honestly, when chaps can cut about robbing and taking drugs left and right without ever seeing the inside of a cell bar a few hours down at the Garda barracks, why bother behaving yourself? And even if you DO manage to land in prison, you’ve got televisions and games consoles to play. “Anti suicide devices”. Is there any other country that is as soft on convicts as Ireland is?

Gosh, yes, there are many countries that are softer than Ireland. Germany, for example. The Netherlands. All the Nordic countries - Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Iceland. Japan. All these countries have lower imprisonment rates than Ireland (as in, they have a lower proportion of their population in prison at any time than we do). And, famously, most of these countries have moe liberal prison regimes than we do.

Imprisonment rate-wise, we're about on a par with Croatia, Switzerland and Belgium.

whisky_galore

Too many noses in the trough and the legal system's legendary reluctance to change.

Roger Hassenforder

Take a stroll into your local district court. Its an eye opening experience.

two tiers of society will become very evident. The lawyers making a fortune out of it, spinning the same yarns, for the same scrotes with the same outcomes, and the slack jawed, slouching scrotes with absolute contempt for the courts & law, society and you.
Its a minor inconvenience in their day, be summoned snd pick up yet another meaningless conviction. There will be the odd defendant mortified to be there, terrified.

Theyre all in kn the joke.

Suckler

Blazer wrote: »

And this is it exactly.
Judges, guards, solicitors etc are all creaming it off the state. The whole system is corrupt as hell.

How are the Gardai 'creaming it'? They don't get a bonus payment every time they arrest the same degenerate.
I can't imagine how soul destroying it must be for some members of The Garda, arresting the same knackers ever few weeks only to have them come out the revolving door again.

Peregrinus

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Take a stroll into your local district court. Its an eye opening experience.

two tiers of society will become very evident. The lawyers making a fortune out of it, spinning the same yarns, for the same scrotes with the same outcomes, and the slack jawed, slouching scrotes with absolute contempt for the courts & law, society and you.
Its a minor inconvenience in their day, be summoned snd pick up yet another meaningless conviction. There will be the odd defendant mortified to be there, terrified.

Theyre all in kn the joke.

The joke is that anyone imagines that lawyers doing criminal defence work in the District Court are making a fortune out of it.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Peregrinus wrote: »

Gosh, yes, there are many countries that are softer than Ireland. Germany, for example. The Netherlands. All the Nordic countries - Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Iceland. Japan. All these countries have lower imprisonment rates than Ireland (as in, they have a lower proportion of their population in prison at any time than we do). And, famously, most of these countries have moe liberal prison regimes than we do.

Imprisonment rate-wise, we're about on a par with Croatia, Switzerland and Belgium.

We are probably a more violent society to begin with. The incarceration statistic on its own isn’t that useful.

Suckler

Peregrinus wrote: »

Gosh, yes, there are many countries that are softer than Ireland. Germany, for example. The Netherlands. All the Nordic countries - Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Iceland. Japan. All these countries have lower imprisonment rates than Ireland (as in, they have a lower proportion of their population in prison at any time than we do). And, famously, most of these countries have moe liberal prison regimes than we do.

Imprisonment rate-wise, we're about on a par with Croatia, Switzerland and Belgium.

The part I've highlighted is the problem here. If we actually took a mature look at prisons and reforming people while they are imprisoned we would see change. Instead we get the mob shouting "they all get playstations" etc. Inevitably when people do get out and have a string of convictions who would employ them? If we had some sort of reform process, we would changed people fit for societal norms emerge.
Most people expect prison to be some 18th century Dickensian hell hole; fine, but what do you think they will be like upon their release?

Peregrinus

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

We are probably a more violent society to begin with. The incarceration statistic on its own isn’t that useful.

If so, lower rates of violent crime in the Nordic countries not be entirely a matter of "to begin with". Nordic penal policy is predicated on the not unreasonable belief that brutalising people is unlikely to be an effective way of reducing violent crime, and so the way to reduce crime rates is through a more humane, not a less humane, penal policy. So the lower rates of violent crime may in fact be the product of the lower imprisonment rates, rather than the cause of them.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Suckler wrote: »

The part I've highlighted is the problem here. If we actually took a mature look at prisons and reforming people while they are imprisoned we would see change. Instead we get the mob shouting "they all get playstations" etc. Inevitably when people do get out and have a string of convictions who would employ them? If we had some sort of reform process, we would changed people fit for societal norms emerge.
Most people expect prison to be some 18th century Dickensian hell hole; fine, but what do you think they will be like upon their release?

The solution to a failing justice system is even more liberalism? Hardly. Why would gang members go straight and work in McDonalds after a few cushy years in the clink. Crime pays.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Peregrinus wrote: »

If so, lower rates of violent crime in the Nordic countries not be entirely a matter of "to begin with". Nordic penal policy is predicated on the not unreasonable belief that brutalising people is unlikely to be an effective way of reducing violent crime, and so the way to reduce crime rates is through a more humane, not a less humane, penal policy. So the lower rates of violent crime may in fact be the product of the lower imprisonment rates, rather than the cause of them.

Or not. In the meantime while swathes of working class areas are left rot

And what’s particularly brutalising about the jail system here. Incarceration is a given. What else is not working?

valoren

Silentcorner wrote: »

Each conviction consists of a legal bill picked up by us the taxpayer under the guise of free legal aid.

The legal sector refuses to be reformed, despite the Troika making that reform one of the conditions of the bailout we received in 2010.

The legal sector makes an absolute fortune on the backs of all those young people, who's lives are pretty much destroyed after the 3rd or 4th conviction, where in this country do you think that bill is at its highest? Why do you think the media never exposes the costs involved and who is benefitting from them?

Agreed. They, the offenders, are like the geese that lay the golden eggs. To give custodial sentences is to kill that goose.

murpho999

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

We are probably a more violent society to begin with. The incarceration statistic on its own isn’t that useful.

We're not really.

We're all people.

Ireland is a very safe place to live and no where near as bad as people on the internet make out.

Crime here is way down on other countries.

Violent crime is also way lower.

Franz Von Peppercorn

murpho999 wrote: »

We're not really.

We're all people.

Ireland is a very safe place to live and no where near as bad as people on the internet make out.

Crime here is way down on other countries.

Violent crime is also way lower.

Please try and read the context of posts you respond to.

murpho999

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Please try and read the context of posts you respond to.

Quite capabable of reading thank you. Just don't agree with your point about Ireland being a more violent society.

Suckler

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The solution to a failing justice system is even more liberalism? Hardly. Why would gang members go straight and work in McDonalds after a few cushy years in the clink. Crime pays.

You've just proven my point; Prisoner reform = an ill informed cry of "cushy years" & Liberalism.

So the solution to an, agreed, failing justice system is...? More of the same system which is failing ?
I never mentioned an liberalism. I wrote about prisoner reform; e.g. the like of Larry Murphy can't stroll out without having undertaken serious monitored counselling/victim impact assessment etc.

Prisoners are going to be released, if we want/expect them to become functioning members of a decent society we need to break their reliance on crime.

Roger Hassenforder

Peregrinus wrote: »

The joke is that anyone imagines that lawyers doing criminal defence work in the District Court are making a fortune out of it.

The joke is the effort involved for a few bob. Do enough of it. Copy and paste the same sob story... ching ching.... next.

Franz Von Peppercorn

murpho999 wrote: »

Quite capabable of reading thank you. Just don't agree with your point about Ireland being a more violent society.

More violent than Norway in the context of what I was answering. Clearly.

murpho999

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The solution to a failing justice system is even more liberalism? Hardly. Why would gang members go straight and work in McDonalds after a few cushy years in the clink. Crime pays.

You do realise that the worst thing about being inside is having your freedom and access to outside denied. You're in the same building 24/7.

The days of chain gangs, torture, solitary confinement etc are gone and do not prevent crime.

Blazer

Suckler wrote: »

How are the Gardai 'creaming it'? They don't get a bonus payment every time they arrest the same degenerate.
I can't imagine how soul destroying it must be for some members of The Garda, arresting the same knackers ever few weeks only to have them come out the revolving door again.

The old boys as they’re known. They’ve been creaming the overtime for decades and buying houses left right and center since they know which ones were going up for sale. My mate is a customs agent but when he stated out he was assigned to Dublin and he used to tell me about the older cops who owned a ton of houses as they picked them up cheaply after evictions etc etc.
He used to be lamenting he didn’t go for them sooner as he would have been sorted.
Granted there’s no new members creaming it that’s for sure. But obviously the more crime you have the more man power you need,or the more overtime is needed if you have less manpower etc.
I feel sorry for anyone starting out in the guards now, crap pay , crap conditions and no respect from the public which is justified given the corruption in the force.

Franz Von Peppercorn

murpho999 wrote: »

You do realise that the worst thing about being inside is having your freedom and access to outside denied. You're in the same building 24/7.

The days of chain gangs, torture, solitary confinement etc are gone and do not prevent crime.

Again, out of context. I was asking a poster what was particularly bad about Irish prisons now. Not in the past.

It seems you don’t even want incarceration.

wexie

What it comes down to in my opinion, is that we have neither the harsh sentences and system they seem to want to use in the US as a deterrent, nor the rehabilitative/reformative systems they use in places like Norway or Holland.

We have the worst of both systems. :mad:

(interesting fact, in Holland the incarceration rates are so low they have actually started importing prisoners from other countries https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-37904263)

While I personally think that a system such as Holland or Norway have would probably more effective in the long run, I also think there is absolutely no excuse for people with 100+ convictions to be out and about in open society.

You could argue of course that 'the system' hasn't tried reforming them...but how often does a person need to show they're not getting the message you can't behave like this?

murpho999

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

More violent than Norway in the context of what I was answering. Clearly.

World Murder Rates

Don't know why you picked Norway but look above and you'll see Ireland is well down the list for murder.

murpho999

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Again, out of context. I was asking a poster what was particularly bad about Irish prisons now. Not in the past.

It seems you don’t even want incarceration.

Maybe you should brush up on your own reading skills.

I said that the worst thing about being in prison is being denied your liberty. Do you realise how hard it is to be locked up 24/7 with no access to the outside world.

Where did I say I was against incarceration?

mad muffin

In the Irish criminal justice system you have a hundred chances to commit crime before going to prison… these are their stories. (Dadum)

Zubeneschamali

The idea that anyone would point to the US prison system as an example is frankly comical. The US prison incarceration rate is 8 times ours, 8 times the number of prisoners per head of population, yet their murder rate is 10 times ours. Prisons run as a for-profit business. Prisoner labour exploited for cash.

Ridiculous.

LirW

Maybe lower imprisonment rates have to do with the fact that police in other countries are showing some sort of dominance and people simply don't think that it's worth the hassle with them because they will make life very uncomfortable with you.
Jesus back home people are paying their parking tickets because they know they WILL get in trouble when they don't do it and it's not worth it. Many teenager have run-ins with the police for very mundane teenager things, so did I and not going to lie, they scare the bejaysus out of you and you definitely don't wanna have an unfriendly encounter with them again.
Also criminal records are tied to your job perspectives and can indirectly have a knock-on effect on your welfare and your prospects to find a place to rent even with the council.

Misbehaviour has "not worth it" written all over it and a lot of small time crimes never getting to court level because the police is taking care of it.

I remember a case from a few years ago where a few teenage lads broke into a supermarket at night. They were surrounded by police, the police didn't know if they were armed and how old they were, things got nasty because the guys were throwing empty threads at the police and one of the lads, 15 he was, got shot and died on the scene. It was a pretty harsh thing and the police officer firing needed therapy after it but break ins like that didn't happen for a long time because you don't wanna end up like one of them.

When People don't have anything to lose, they'll go on with business as usual.

CrankyHaus

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It doesn't reduce crime, though.

Actually in the US the increase in the incarceration rate since about 1980 has correlated with a significant drop in crime rates, beginning in the 90s.

Anyway while 3 strikes and you're out seems harsh for Ireland, how about 33 strikes and you're out, or 330 strikes and your out? No reasonable person would have a problem with protecting innocent people from the small number of prolific repeat offenders in ireland that currently operate with impunity, and we could do so without having to adopt US style penal policies.

Cee-Jay-Cee

Peregrinus wrote: »

Gosh, yes, there are many countries that are softer than Ireland. Germany, for example. The Netherlands. All the Nordic countries - Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Iceland. Japan. All these countries have lower imprisonment rates than Ireland (as in, they have a lower proportion of their population in prison at any time than we do). And, famously, most of these countries have moe liberal prison regimes than we do.

Imprisonment rate-wise, we're about on a par with Croatia, Switzerland and Belgium.

But the difference is that in those countries you have a much greater chance of ending up in prison for a crime compared to here so the imprisonment rates cannot be compared. If we imprisoned people for crimes at the same rate as other countries do then we'd have a considerably larger prison population. I seriously doubt if there are people in any of those countries that you listed walking around with 20+ convictions yet have never served any prison time. We don't have a justice system, we have a court system where the only winners are the legal teams. Its a joke.

wexie

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The idea that anyone would point to the US prison system as an example is frankly comical. The US prison incarceration rate is 8 times ours, 8 times the number of prisoners per head of population, yet their murder rate is 10 times ours. Prisons run as a for-profit business. Prisoner labour exploited for cash.

Ridiculous.

I don't know, I don't necessarily see a problem with prisons being run in such a way as to be (partly) self funding, it would nicely tie in with perhaps teaching the prisoners some trade or skills while they are there which could be a valuable part of rehabilitation.

But yes I think the pendulum has probably swung a bit too far the other way in the US. I doubt most corporations that would be interested in running a prison would be too interested in ensuring that the free labour they get is treated and taught in such a way that they are less likely to end up as free labour at the end of their sentence and I think that should be the main aim of a prison.

To ensure prisoners come out as better people (citizens?) as when they went in.

wexie

LirW wrote: »

Maybe lower imprisonment rates have to do with the fact that police in other countries are showing some sort of dominance and people simply don't think that it's worth the hassle with them because they will make life very uncomfortable with you.

Whereas in parts of the country here those roles seem to be pretty much reversed

judestynes

Julien Fancy SleepwearMGS wrote: »

I’ve said it a few times the past couple of days but a system like the US is what we need to be honest. There’s no bull**** with crimes over there. You can go down for a good number of years for things we’d get yelled at in court and sent away for over here. It honestly feels like unless you murder someone or rape a woman or child you just won’t go to prison. It’s scandalous.

The US model is the last thing we need. Prison for profit with no attempt to rehabiltate inmates. The just keeps the gravy train rolling.

KaneToad

Blazer wrote: »

I feel sorry for anyone starting out in the guards now, crap pay , crap conditions and no respect from the public which is justified given the corruption in the force.

The conditions may be crap and there may be no respect. However the pay - even for new recruits - is far from crap. Guards are very well paid.

Plopsu

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Anyway while 3 strikes and you're out seems harsh for Ireland, how about 33 strikes and you're out, or 330 strikes and your out? No reasonable person would have a problem with protecting innocent people from the small number of prolific repeat offenders in ireland that currently operate with impunity, and we could do so without having to adopt US style penal policies.

Or how about after a certain number of convictions anything else you're convicted of carries the maximum tariff for the offence. No need to lock somebody up for life for stealing a bike but you lock them up for the longest you possibly can.
Alternatively, constitutionally ban concurrent sentencing and our crime problems would massively diminish, as it's the same recidivists causing the bedrock of issues. In any other area buy one get one (of five) free is considered and incentive but somehow in the justice system, they think it's part of a deterrent. Obviously we'd need more prison space.

Paulzx

murpho999 wrote: »

Don't know why you picked Norway but look above and you'll see Ireland is well down the list for murder.

Realistically speaking murder is a crime which generally effects small amounts of the population. Statistics for serious crime to me are not an accurate indication of the actual effect of crime on us as a society.


Most people are much more effected by low level, non headline, "minor" crimes which have a much more insidious effect on the community.

This type of crime is rife and unchallenged in various areas around the country.

As a resident if you have to deal daily with local vandalism, anti social behaviour, teenage intimidation, stolen cars, burning cars, quads on green areas, smashed bus shelters etc. your life is made miserable irrespespective of how high or low the headline murder rate in your area is.

You are afraid to stick your head above the parapet and challenge this behaviour as you will inevitably find your home and family targeted with no consequences for the people reponsible

Unfortunately, we as a society seem incapable of dealing with this type of "normalised" crime which is going on all over the country and is destroying our communities.

Serious crime statistics don't put an accurate indication on the actual problems we are having at local level and the awfull effect it is having on normal people.

I have no idea what system we can put in place to act as a deterrent but there is no doubt that the one we have at the moment is failing our scoiety miserably

dxhound2005

Julien Fancy SleepwearMGS wrote: »

I’ve said it a few times the past couple of days but a system like the US is what we need to be honest. There’s no bull**** with crimes over there. You can go down for a good number of years for things we’d get yelled at in court and sent away for over here. It honestly feels like unless you murder someone or rape a woman or child you just won’t go to prison. It’s scandalous.

They have well over 2 million in prison, already with many of them very old due to life meaning life, and three strikes and you're in for life. For us to match them we would need to have 40,000 prisoners, and be prepared to offer the current teenagers geriatric care in 70 years time. And the US system has not eliminated crime.

Stab*City

wexie wrote: »

While I personally think that a system such as Holland or Norway have would probably more effective in the long run, I also think there is absolutely no excuse for people with 100+ convictions to be out and about in open society.

You could argue of course that 'the system' hasn't tried reforming them...but how often does a person need to show they're not getting the message you can't behave like this?

So what do you suggest doing with someone lets say who has 100+ convictions? Lock them up for life? What if they are for things like shop lifting or other non violent crimes?

wexie wrote: »

I don't know, I don't necessarily see a problem with prisons being run in such a way as to be (partly) self funding, it would nicely tie in with perhaps teaching the prisoners some trade or skills while they are there which could be a valuable part of rehabilitation.

But yes I think the pendulum has probably swung a bit too far the other way in the US. I doubt most corporations that would be interested in running a prison would be too interested in ensuring that the free labour they get is treated and taught in such a way that they are less likely to end up as free labour at the end of their sentence and I think that should be the main aim of a prison.

To ensure prisoners come out as better people (citizens?) as when they went in.

There is only one thing that can rehabilitate a current or ex prisoner and that is themselves. No amount of courses in prison can actually rehabilitate someone who does not want to be.

You have to understand for some there is no reason. Soon as they get out they go back home to the same poverty and same friends. Nothing to do all day except get up to trouble. One thing i do think might work is some sort of work placement scheme for non violent offenders. If you had a 9-5 to come out to it would give you some purpose.

In prison you spend about 1 or 2 days feeling sorry for yourself and saying to yourself you will never get into trouble again. Then it dawns on you where you are. You are in a building with every trouble maker in Ireland.

wexie

Stab*City wrote: »

So what do you suggest doing with someone lets say who has 100+ convictions? Lock them up for life? What if they are for things like shop lifting or other non violent crimes?

To be honest, I don't know, but I think the current system of sending them on their way with little more than a slap on the wrist isn't the way to go either.

They may be non violent crimes they are not victimless crimes are they?

Stab*City wrote: »

There is only one thing that can rehabilitate a current or ex prisoner and that is themselves. No amount of courses in prison can actually rehabilitate someone who does not want to be.

You have to understand for some there is no reason. Soon as they get out they go back home to the same poverty and same friends. Nothing to do all day except get up to trouble. One thing i do think might work is some sort of work placement scheme for non violent offenders. If you had a 9-5 to come out to it would give you some purpose.

In prison you spend about 1 or 2 days feeling sorry for yourself and saying to yourself you will never get into trouble again. Then it dawns on you where you are. You are in a building with every trouble maker in Ireland.

So how about we think of a system where they can see that not offending is better than habitual offending?

At the moment it seems we have a system that has little deterrent and little motivation.

If you've no stick and no carrot how will you get the donkey to move?

A three strikes policy before mandatory extended sentence would be a sobering reality check for our habitual offenders, then again our modest legal sector would feel the pinch and that holiday home won't pay for itself.

Wanderer78

Deleted User wrote:

A three strikes policy before mandatory extended sentence would be a sobering reality check for our habitual offenders, then again our modest legal sector would feel the pinch and that holiday home won't pay for itself.

Would this help them with whatever complex issues that lead these individuals to the life of crime?

Plopsu

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Would this help them with whatever complex issues that lead these individuals to the life of crime?

Beyond a certain number of convictions, the needs of everybody else should take precedence, don't you think? There is a point at which it is too late to help somebody and that point has been well reached by 40 or 50 convictions. There is a point where it needs to be about protecting the rest of society from people who've already had too many chances.

Wanderer78

Plopsu wrote:

Beyond a certain number of convictions, the needs of everybody else should take precedence, don't you think? There is a point at which it is too late to help somebody and that point has been well reached by 40 or 50 convictions. There is a point where it needs to be about protecting the rest of society from people who've already had too many chances.

So maybe we should simply exterminate these individuals, even when there's well known issues amongst criminal populations, and early intervention might just prevent these individuals from continuing on their potential path of crime?

Plopsu

Wanderer78 wrote: »

So maybe we should simply exterminate these individuals, even when there's well known issues amongst criminal populations, and early intervention might just prevent these individuals from continuing on their potential path of crime?

Exterminate them! FFS! That's a pathetic straw man effort.

After multiple convictions is too late for early intervention.