Air BnB [and other platforms] to be effectively outlawed in high demand areas

The_Conductor

JJJackal wrote: »

Think this is now law?

Yup- as of yesterday.
Elements of it are subject to Ministerial commencement orders- however, it has been signed into law.

Claw Hammer

The_Conductor wrote: »

Yup- as of yesterday.
Elements of it are subject to Ministerial commencement orders- however, it has been signed into law.

The whole act seems to be subject to the minister making commencement orders. No sign of commencement orders yet.

Zenify

Will a lot of people ignore these new laws or will they be properly enforced?

The_Conductor

Zenify wrote: »

Will a lot of people ignore these new laws or will they be properly enforced?

Seeing as Airbnb already supply information to the Revenue Commissioners- and they in turn are entitled to query RTB records- it is safest to assume that it will in fact be properly policed- and if someone goes rogue, it'll simply be a matter of time before they are caught.

Zenify

The_Conductor wrote: »

Seeing as Airbnb already supply information to the Revenue Commissioners- and they in turn are entitled to query RTB records- it is safest to assume that it will in fact be properly policed- and if someone goes rogue, it'll simply be a matter of time before they are caught.

Just doing a search on Airbnb shows up hundreds of short term rentals for July for entire homes in Dublin city. It just appears that people are still taking bookings. They look like normal apartments in residential areas.

4ensic15

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2019/si/236/made/en/print

https://www.irisoifigiuil.ie/currentissues/Ir040619.pdf

buzz11

How would any planning breach function in a multi-unit development?

For example; if apartment owners were operating short term lets and notified of planning breach does that have implications for the OMC and other unit owners?

The_Conductor

buzz11 wrote: »

How would any planning breach function in a multi-unit development?

For example; if apartment owners were operating short term lets and notified of planning breach does that have implications for the OMC and other unit owners?

Most leases associated with apartments will have specific clauses probiting short term letting of the property. However, in all liklihood, its never been enforced- and the only manner of enforcing it would entail bringing a case against the leaseholder.

If there is a notified breach of planning- the breach is against the OMC- who in turn have to bring a commensurate case against the offendor.

Its messy- damn messy- and its putting obligations on the OMC that by rights should be the obligation of the leaseholder of the apartment- and not the OMC (other than as a notifiable party).

In practical terms- its not impossible to enforce- but improbable that it would be enforced- and if every such breach were to end up in the district court (in the first instance)- the business of the district courts would grind to a halt, and the only winners, as usual, would be the legal profession.

This has not been thought through- and while its all well and good giving the RTB yet another hammer with which to beat owners over the head with- its legislating in a tangentally related matter- in the expectation that it will bring many thousand of units into the rental sector- when in actual fact, according to information from Airbnb itself, over 76% of all units advertised on their site in Ireland- are temporary lets in people's PPRs- and not units that are available year round at all (though a sizeable number of them are available most weekends).

There is a failure on the part of the Minister to recognise that those people letting property on booking.com, airbnb and the likes- are, in the main, not letting property short term to escape the clutches of the Residential Tenancy Act (though obviously there are a minority of cases where this does hold true)- in the main- it is ordinary Joe soaps- letting a room in the property, or multiple rooms, or indeed the property as a whole- with amost 30% of those who let accommodation on Airbnb in Ireland- also renting accommodation on Airbnb in Ireland, or elsewhere, for the durations that they let their property in Ireland on airbnb (aka- there are a large cohort of people who let their homes for the weekend- and go exploring elsewhere- renting a unit on airbnb for the duration- often in Continental Europe.

Representatives of Airbnb- have provided information to the Department- and also on occasion, when requested, to the Oireachtas joint committee on Housing. By and large- its been ignored- as it doesn't suit the narrative that is being fed to the media.

I expect the majority of owners who are letting units on airbnb to escape the Residential Tenancies Act (and its a much smaller number of people than the Minister likes to suggest)- will sell up rather than move into longer term tenancy situations. The majority of property on airbnb however- will either continue as-is- unless those people who are doing their weekend lets- or summer lets- are actively chased off the platform by the RTB- using their new powers- however, the units aren't going to miraculously be available for longer term lets- they'll simply be vacant for the duration.

The other thing- is anyone who can let a unit to a tenant who they know is going to move on- be it a student- or a junior doctor- or whatever- will do so- rather than risk letting it to a long term tenant.

The key word which I've continually used here is *risk* - the new regulations, on top of the pre-existing regulations- have heaped risk on landlords and property owners- with no sign of a commensurate quid-pro-quo (such as the ability to speedily evict a disruptive, antisocial or non-paying tenant). This risk has tipped the scale to the extent that landlords quite simply don't care how much rent they can get- why would they- when so many of them end up with overholding tenants who simply stop paying their rent...........

If the aim is to drive small scale landlords from the sector- then, yay, the Minister's plans are coming to fruition- however for everyone cheering on the sidelines- its a case of the old Hebrew saying- be careful what you wish for, you just might get it...........

4ensic15

The enforcement is against the occupier of the property which in that case would be the leaseholder not the OMC. It happens all the time with commercial premises being leased. Most leases contain a covenant that the tenant will comply with the planning laws and the landlord disclaims any warranty in relation to the permitted us.

buzz11

The_Conductor wrote: »

Most leases associated with apartments will have specific clauses probiting short term letting of the property. However, in all liklihood, its never been enforced- and the only manner of enforcing it would entail bringing a case against the leaseholder.

If there is a notified breach of planning- the breach is against the OMC- who in turn have to bring a commensurate case against the offendor.

Its messy- damn messy- and its putting obligations on the OMC that by rights should be the obligation of the leaseholder of the apartment- and not the OMC (other than as a notifiable party).

In practical terms- its not impossible to enforce- but improbable that it would be enforced- and if every such breach were to end up in the district court (in the first instance)- the business of the district courts would grind to a halt, and the only winners, as usual, would be the legal profession.

Agreed, there may be hope that initial breach/enforcement letters and headline grabbing cases will put the word out there and the get some movement of properties back into full time residential use.


It wouldn't be difficult to collect addresses of possible short term let properties, the keybox on the outside wall is the main giveaway.

AlmightyCushion

The people letting out their PPR will still be able to do it. It doesn't matter if the person letting a whole unit either sells it or rents it out. It is another property returned to residential usage.

The_Conductor

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

The people letting out their PPR will still be able to do it. It doesn't matter if the person letting a whole unit either sells it or rents it out. It is another property returned to residential usage.

The issue is- most of the properties being let as a whole unit- are PPRs- not units that will be let or returned to residential usage during their vacant periods. This is the knux of the issue that the Minister does not wish to acknowledge.

There are not thousands of units that are going to return to residential use as a result of the legislation- the numbers are much smaller- however, the narrative that the Minister wishes to tell- has to ignore this unfortunate reality.

Fian

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

The people letting out their PPR will still be able to do it. It doesn't matter if the person letting a whole unit either sells it or rents it out. It is another property returned to residential usage.

There is some truth in this but it is not quite so simple. There will be some units which are no longer available on Air BnB & which do not move into long term rental, particularly those which have owner occupiers who are also caught by the restrictions at least as far as the 90 days limit is concerned. This will lead to a reduction in short term availability without any corresponding increase in long term availability.

The reduction in short term air bnb availability will increase demand for hotel rooms, which will lead to greater difficulty in obtaining hotel rooms for short term emergency housing of homeless people, because it will be more lucrative or less hassle for the hotels to deal with tourists rather than homeless families.

Bear in mind traditional "B&Bs" are also caught by this regulation, even if they are not operating online. I used to run a B & B in my home maybe 20 years ago, we had 5 bedrooms to let out. That would not be possible under the new regulations without getting planning permission, which is not going to be granted. That in turn pushes up the pressure on hotel rooms. We stopped the B&B 15 years ago once our kids came into the frame btw, so I am not moaning because this impacts me directly - I have not had a B&B since then and was not letting out on air bnb.

The last thing we need is to reduce the availability of emergency accommodation for homeless families. Hotel rooms in Dublin are already horrendously over-priced, that is what drove the air bnb expansion in the first place.

This is aside altogether from the reality that this will be difficult/impossible to enforce and the rules will incentivise black market / under the counter rentals. If somebody is pretending that they are only operating air bnb for 90 days a year but in reality are doing more than that, they are not going to put in a tax return for 180 days and may well decide to fly completely under the radar and not put in a tax return at all. I use "airbnb" loosely here - if air bnb are going to report the number of days for each address to the revenue commissioners the black market operators will move to other less co-operative platforms.

Graham

are you sure that B & B's will be impacted?

Here's the original announcement:

Where a house or apartment is a person’s principal private residence, they will be permitted to rent out a room (or rooms) within their home for short-term letting without restriction (e.g. B&B-type use) but will only be allowed to sub-let their entire house without planning permission on the short-term market for a cumulative period of 90 days or less annually.

https://www.housing.gov.ie/housing/private-rented-housing/minister-murphy-announces-regulations-short-term-lettings

AlmightyCushion

The_Conductor wrote: »

The issue is- most of the properties being let as a whole unit- are PPRs- not units that will be let or returned to residential usage during their vacant periods. This is the knux of the issue that the Minister does not wish to acknowledge.

There are not thousands of units that are going to return to residential use as a result of the legislation- the numbers are much smaller- however, the narrative that the Minister wishes to tell- has to ignore this unfortunate reality.

And those people letting out their PPR as a whole unit will still be allowed to do so.

http://insideairbnb.com/dublin/

9,530 listings. 4,896 for entire properties. 2,462 full properties are frequently booked (over 90 days) with a review in the last 6 months for an average 211 nights a year.

Yeah, I'm sure those 2,462 full properties are just people putting their PPRs up when they go to somewhere for a long weekend.

Also, 43.4% (2,123) of those full properties are from hosts that have multiple listings.

4,456 listing (full and private or shared rooms) are frequently booked (over 90 days) with a review in the last 6 months for an average 207 nights a year.

I can only find the top 20 hosts in Dublin. Of those top 20 hosts they have 423 listings between them.

This is only dublin. I haven't even bothered looking at other places.

Fian

The_Conductor wrote: »

The other thing- is anyone who can let a unit to a tenant who they know is going to move on- be it a student- or a junior doctor- or whatever- will do so- rather than risk letting it to a long term tenant.

Funny you mention this. I am sale agreed on a 3-bed investment property atm which is a walking from UCD and I intend to let to students, which is a reversal of the traditional paradigm of settling for students if you have to when the preferred option would be "young professionals".

My ideal plan would have been to let to students for 9 months and let it out on air bnb over the summer. That would be the most efficient use of the property since students do not want to rent during the summer and since that is when the greatest demand for short term lets is present.

Instead, because of these regulations, the students will get a 12 month lease which will start in the summer and finish at the end of the academic year. They can either move on at the end of the year or stay on if they want to continue to rent over the following summer because they will move on eventually when they finish in UCD.

Fian

Graham wrote: »

are you sure that B & B's will be impacted?

Here's the original announcement:


https://www.housing.gov.ie/housing/private-rented-housing/minister-murphy-announces-regulations-short-term-lettings

Oh, I had not seen that. That seems sensible, I haven't seen the regulations (as far as i know they have not yet been published) and didn't realise that was the plan. That does make more sense - thanks for pointing it out.

Fian

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

I can only find the top 20 hosts in Dublin. Of those top 20 hosts they have 423 listings between them.

This is only dublin. I haven't even bothered looking at other places.

These "hosts" are highly unlikely to own an average of 21 properties each - they are acting as an agent for the owners/providing a service to the owners by managing the air bnb listing for them.

AlmightyCushion

Fian wrote: »

These "hosts" are highly unlikely to own an average of 21 properties each - they are acting as an agent for the owners/providing a service to the owners by managing the air bnb listing for them.

Possibly. Would you really use an agent if you're only putting your own PPR up for the odd times you won't be there? I don't think it would be something the agent would be that interested in. Dealing with multiple clients who only want their property available a few weeks a year. It sounds like a lot of effort for minimal gain. It would be a lot easier and less time consuming to deal with 1 or 2 units all years round than 20+ units for a few weeks a year. Maybe I'm wrong though.

machalla

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Possibly. Would you really use an agent if you're only putting your own PPR up for the odd times you won't be there? I don't think it would be something the agent would be that interested in. Dealing with multiple clients who only want their property available a few weeks a year. It sounds like a lot of effort for minimal gain. It would be a lot easier and less time consuming to deal with 1 or 2 units all years round than 20+ units for a few weeks a year. Maybe I'm wrong though.

Airsorted work on that basis. They take their fees and commission out of any bookings and you can stay on the books as long as you want. I'm sure there are other agencies out there that offer similar. Its relatively easy money for them, book a cleaner and a few communications with guests is usually about the height of it.

The_Conductor

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

And those people letting out their PPR as a whole unit will still be allowed to do so.

http://insideairbnb.com/dublin/

9,530 listings. 4,896 for entire properties. 2,462 full properties are frequently booked (over 90 days) with a review in the last 6 months for an average 211 nights a year.

Yeah, I'm sure those 2,462 full properties are just people putting their PPRs up when they go to somewhere for a long weekend.

Also, 43.4% (2,123) of those full properties are from hosts that have multiple listings.

4,456 listing (full and private or shared rooms) are frequently booked (over 90 days) with a review in the last 6 months for an average 207 nights a year.

I can only find the top 20 hosts in Dublin. Of those top 20 hosts they have 423 listings between them.

This is only dublin. I haven't even bothered looking at other places.

From the same website:

9,530 listings on Airbnb for Dublin
4,896 listings relate to 'entire properties'

Of the 9,530 listings for Dublin-

6,354 of these have low availability (less than 25 days a year)
3,176 have 'high availability' (averaging 92.3 days per year)
1,870 advertisements show >99 days available per year

I.e. in Dublin- less than 20% of the advertisements on airbnb (all advertisements- not just entire properties)- show availability in the last year of greater than 99 days- and this cohort of properties represents 1,870 of the 9,530 entire properties on airbnb.

Of the 9,530 entire properties on Airbnb in Dublin- 50.3% are not available for stays of longer than 2 days.

43.4% of hosts listing on Airbnb in Dublin have multiple listings- however....... this includes people letting more than 1 room in their home.

There are currently 4,896 entire properties on airbnb in Dublin- with an estimated occupancy of 33.5%- that is 122 days per year.

So- 4896 entire properties on Airbnb- of which 1870 are available >99 days in a calendar year- the other 3026 of which are available for an average of 25 days in a calendar year.

56.6% of all advertisers on Airbnb in Dublin are letting either a single room or a single property- of the other 33.4% of advertisers- there is no breakdown to show how many had multiple properties- or how many had multiple rooms in a single property on the site.

Its not exactly very compelling and doesn't support the narrative that the Minister is trying to sell........? Maximum of 1,870 properties in Dublin that have airbnb use of >99 days and averaging 122 days in a calendar year.

I get it- its 1,870 properties- but 1) they're not going to be released to the long term rental market (come what may) and 2) its less than 10% of the number of units being constructed nationally this year- so while it is a nice number of units- its not the thousands of units that the Minister claims it to be- nor will it do, well anything, to sort the housing crisis.

The legislation will release a limited number of properties to the market for sale- that will be its principal effect- however, the numbers of properties involved aren't sufficient to have any noticeable effect on, well, anything.........?

The_Conductor

The_Conductor wrote: »

The issue is- most of the properties being let as a whole unit- are PPRs- not units that will be let or returned to residential usage during their vacant periods. This is the knux of the issue that the Minister does not wish to acknowledge.

There are not thousands of units that are going to return to residential use as a result of the legislation- the numbers are much smaller- however, the narrative that the Minister wishes to tell- has to ignore this unfortunate reality.

Have you a source for this?

Even if hundreds of properties are returned for private use, it’s a success.

Graham

The_Conductor wrote: »

I get it- its 1,870 properties- but 1) they're not going to be released to the long term rental market (come what may) and 2) its less than 10% of the number of units being constructed nationally this year- so while it is a nice number of units- its not the thousands of units that the Minister claims it to be- nor will it do, well anything, to sort the housing crisis.

I'd expect a good chunk of those 1,870 to return to the residential market in one form or another. I really don't think there's going to be a large number of properties left idle for too long.

It's not just about where we are now. How many additional residential properties would be transferred to the short term letting market over the next few years if left unchecked?

CoffeeBean2

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Have you a source for this?

Even if hundreds of properties are returned for private use, it’s a success.

It's great to see the Irish begrudger attitude is alive and well. That's what the vast majority of this is. Someone else has something you don't have and they are making money from it and that's wrong in your eyes.

Clearly you feel that no matter the cost, one extra house makes it all worth while.

But they are all breaking the law, yeah planning laws which clearly say renting a property for 15 days is OK, but for 14 days it's clearly wrong.

Zenify

CoffeeBean2 wrote: »

It's great to see the Irish begrudger attitude is alive and well. That's what the vast majority of this is. Someone else has something you don't have and they are making money from it and that's wrong in your eyes.

Clearly you feel that no matter the cost, one extra house makes it all worth while.

But they are all breaking the law, yeah planning laws which clearly say renting a property for 15 days is OK, but for 14 days it's clearly wrong.

It is very different. Under 14 days is usually a tourist over 14 is probably a student or somebody working in the area. This isn't begrudgery, it is about proper use of the housing stock. We have laws in place for the benefit of society, the misuse of housing has been detrimental to people living beside it and also people looking to live somewhere.

The_Conductor

Deleted User wrote: »

Have you a source for this?

Even if hundreds of properties are returned for private use, it’s a success.

http://insideairbnb.com/dublin

Of the 9530 advertisements on Airbnb for Dublin- 4896 units are let as 'entire properties'- and 1870 or less than 20% of all advertisements on Airbnb for Dublin- feature properties with availability of greater than 99 days in the calendar year.

Also- of the 9530 advertisements on Airbnb for Dublin- 6350 have availability of less than 25 days in the previous year- and 882 had zero availability in the last year (that is- there was an advertisement up on airbnb for the property previously, but the advertiser did not let the property in the last 12 months (at all).

It doesn't specifically state which of the properties are PPRs- however, one can surmise that entirety of the 6350 properties with 25 or fewer days available in the last year- were PPRs- in addition to a fair chunk of the other properties.

In addition- only 27% of the entire properties (apartments and houses) on airbnb (for Dublin) were available for more than 99 days in the previous year.

So- a tad over a quarter of the entire properties would appear to be abusing the Residential Tenancies Act......... Roughly 3 in 4 of all entire houses and apartments on airbnb- come under the Minister's definition as allowable- only 27% of current lettings of entire units on airbnb would be outlawed.........

Its hard to get good data- but the insideairbnb website- is probably as good as it gets..........

AlmightyCushion

The_Conductor wrote: »

http://insideairbnb.com/dublin

Of the 9530 advertisements on Airbnb for Dublin- 4896 units are let as 'entire properties'- and 1870 or less than 20% of all advertisements on Airbnb for Dublin- feature properties with availability of greater than 99 days in the calendar year.

Also- of the 9530 advertisements on Airbnb for Dublin- 6350 have availability of less than 25 days in the previous year- and 882 had zero availability in the last year (that is- there was an advertisement up on airbnb for the property previously, but the advertiser did not let the property in the last 12 months (at all).

It doesn't specifically state which of the properties are PPRs- however, one can surmise that entirety of the 6350 properties with 25 or fewer days available in the last year- were PPRs- in addition to a fair chunk of the other properties.

In addition- only 27% of the entire properties (apartments and houses) on airbnb (for Dublin) were available for more than 99 days in the previous year.

So- a tad over a quarter of the entire properties would appear to be abusing the Residential Tenancies Act......... Roughly 3 in 4 of all entire houses and apartments on airbnb- come under the Minister's definition as allowable- only 27% of current lettings of entire units on airbnb would be outlawed.........

Its hard to get good data- but the insideairbnb website- is probably as good as it gets..........

There are not thousands of units that are going to return to residential use as a result of the legislation- the numbers are much smaller- however, the narrative that the Minister wishes to tell- has to ignore this unfortunate reality.

You're disproving your earlier point here which is what she was replying to. 1870 full properties up and available for over 90 days. That's a lot of properties. Not to mention some of the properties listing that are not full properties could still be fully rented out but just on a room by room basis. This is only for Dublin and this is only on AirBnB.

The_Conductor

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

This is only for Dublin and this is only on AirBnB.

Airbnb is far and away the largest site- and the Dublin market is far and away its largest market in Ireland. Airsorted only recently offering services in Cork- and aren't in Galway at all yet. So- it may only be Dublin- however, Dublin is the vast majority of their business.

The 1870 units- is a small fraction of those that the Minister suggested were available (he is on the record suggesting there were over 20,000 units in short term lets that could be returned to longer term lets- that simply is not the case).

The issue here- is the perenial issue- lack of supply- and the Airbnb supply that might be brought to the table- is less than a tenth the numbers that the Minister suggested the case to be.

We need more high density housing units- in Dublin- as central as possible.
Playing games with airbnb- will make some owner occupiers in apartment developments very happy- but its not really going to sort anything for anyone else.

AlmightyCushion

The_Conductor wrote: »

Airbnb is far and away the largest site- and the Dublin market is far and away its largest market in Ireland. Airsorted only recently offering services in Cork- and aren't in Galway at all yet. So- it may only be Dublin- however, Dublin is the vast majority of their business.

The 1870 units- is a small fraction of those that the Minister suggested were available (he is on the record suggesting there were over 20,000 units in short term lets that could be returned to longer term lets- that simply is not the case).

The issue here- is the perenial issue- lack of supply- and the Airbnb supply that might be brought to the table- is less than a tenth the numbers that the Minister suggested the case to be.

We need more high density housing units- in Dublin- as central as possible.
Playing games with airbnb- will make some owner occupiers in apartment developments very happy- but its not really going to sort anything for anyone else.

I've never heard the figure quoted as high as 20,000. It's possible you are mis-remembering this article.

https://www.independent.ie/business/housing-minister-deflates-airbnb-with-overdue-curb-on-rules-37466111.html

Airbnb has said there are around 22,000 listings in Ireland. Around 7,000 of these are in Dublin.

Housing minister Eoghan Murphy reckons that by slamming the door on professional landlord short term lettings with Airbnb, he could free up between 2,000 and 3,000 housing units for longer term tenants in key cities including Dublin.

Regardless, that doesn't matter. Even if he said that and only 1,000 get returned to the residential market. It is still 1,000 extra properties available to the residential market.

The_Conductor

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Regardless, that doesn't matter. Even if he said that and only 1,000 get returned to the residential market. It is still 1,000 extra properties available to the residential market.

Not necessarily- these units are predominantly servicing the short term and tourist trade- who will have to be accommodated elsewhere. At present the Dublin Regional Homeless Executive have 1,232 families in emergency short term accommodation (which includes the likes of both these units, and other short term accommodation units). If the very best case scenario happened- and the likes of the DRHE was able to access these units to rehome a good chunk of the families in emergency accommodation- you still haven't generated availability of any extra properties in the Dublin region- you've simply shuffled around their usage (cognisant of the fact that we still need short term accommodation for tourists, workers and others- that these Airbnb units are providing).

Getting better utility from these units- will help (they currently operate at about 1/3 utilisation)- however, we're simply moving a shortage from one segment of the market to another- its still not an increase in the overall supply.

We critically need new supply of high density units- as close to Dublin city centre as possible- as quickly as possible. Getting units like the current Airbnb supply (which aren't high density and aren't focused on the city centre) back into fulltime use (by owner occupiers) will at best through better utilisation- account for in or around 1,200 additional housing units- thats it though.

Best possible solution- all round- is all 1870 units are sold to owner occupiers- who in turn vacate property elsewhere that could be freed up- and released in a trickle down manner- to lower rungs in the housing supply chain.

The low numbers- don't support the over-all narrative being peddled- yes, the Minister is doing something- however, its a drop in the ocean- and it is by no means the game changer that some people seem to imagine it to be.

The most curious thing of all- is how few units are on airbnb and booking.com in Ireland- one would have thought (from all the media hype) that the numbers were significantly highter than they actually are. Yes- there was a small but growing number of landlords using short term lets- to get around getting nobbled by the 2004 Residential Tenancies Act- however, the number of people doing this- is demonstatably smaller than the shrill commentary would suggest.