Air BnB [and other platforms] to be effectively outlawed in high demand areas

awec

Dav010 wrote: »

No matter how much you would want to be right, the facts confirmed my CoCos say otherwise, people are ignoring it.

Again, my post just went over your head.

My point was that there are people on this thread, you are one of them, who just don’t like the fact that these laws have been introduced.

The fact that there hasn’t been total compliance one month in is just the latest in a long line of terrible excuses as to why this legislation is bad.

Even if there had been thousands of people prosecuted, you’d just move on to some other bizarre reason to convince us all how this is bad for people looking for somewhere to live.

awec

Dav010 wrote: »

No, I think your contained a lot of wishful thinking, speculation and an attempt to scaremonger. None of it accurate, the Councils, the people in charge of enforcement, have confirmed people are ignoring it and they have no staff nor resources to do what you want.

And I am sure that will change. Again, give it time. It has been one month. One.

Landlords boasting about how they’re ignoring the law is one sure way to speed up any enforcement anyway, so hopefully you don’t have to wait too long.

Dav010

awec wrote: »

Again, my post just went over your head.

My point was that there are people on this thread, you are one of them, who just don’t like the fact that these laws have been introduced.

The fact that there hasn’t been total compliance one month in is just the latest in a long line of terrible excuses as to why this legislation is bad.

Even if there had been thousands of people prosecuted, you’d just move on to some other bizarre reason to convince us all how this is bad for people looking for somewhere to live.

This post is Trumpian, it’s not that there mightened be “total compliant”, there actually is no compliance. In fact, you don’t seem to accept, even though everyone in the country has known this legislation was coming since last year, it is so important that the Councils haven’t been given staff nor funding to enforce it.

It isn’t one month, it is over six months since the legislation was announced, that is the time enforcement departments have had to prepare for it.

Your point isn’t going over my head, it’s that your point is just wishful thinking which is at odds with the facts confirmed by the people charged with enforcement.

Dav010

awec wrote: »

Landlords boasting about how they’re ignoring the law is one sure way to speed up any enforcement anyway, so hopefully you don’t have to wait too long.

I’m not boasting, I am literally quoting the Councils in the RPZs, there records confirm no one cares. I am not trying to convince you of this, you can read it yourself.

Though you may be hopeful in my case, you will be disappointed.

LuckyLloyd

It’s law for less than a month. If in a year the current situation is as it is you’ll be right to say the law is a joke. It’s just a matter of time as we all know the law is being broken all around us in Dublin City Centre right this minute, and the powers that be know it too.

awec

Your point seems to be that councils haven’t yet been given the staff, which you are taking as proof that they’ll never be given the staff, so you are coming to your own conclusion that this will therefore never be enforced.

Bizarre. There is absolutely nothing to suggest this. So far compliance has been low, so the stick will need to be wielded. It’s not a case that compliance has been low, therefore we just all forget about it and pretend like it never happened, that’s not how it works.

Can you imagine if there’s a piece in the papers in six months time saying there has been no enforcement? The government would be absolutely hammered from all sides. It is truly delusional to think this one will just be ignored.

So again, give it time.

Dav010

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It’s law for less than a month. If in a year the current situation is as it is you’ll be right to say the law is a joke. It’s just a matter of time as we all know the law is being broken all around us in Dublin City Centre right this minute, and the powers that be know it too.

Powers that be? Everyone capable of rationale thought knows that it is being broken not just around Dublin CC this minute, but in every RPZ.

I take your point that it is only enacted for one month, a short time for property owners to comply. But if this is as important as you seem to think, then you would think the mechanism and resources for enforcement would be in place now considering how long we have all known it was coming.

Like you, I can see a few high profile prosecutions eventually, but it will be ignored by the majority. Do you know, there still does not seem to be an answer to the situation where a tenant lets the property on Airbnb? The Act provides for prosecution of property owner, but in this case the LL is complying with the law, the tenant is not, but cannot be prosecuted.

Dav010

awec wrote: »

Your point seems to be that councils haven’t yet been given the staff, which you are taking as proof that they’ll never be given the staff, so you are coming to your own conclusion that this will therefore never be enforced.

Bizarre. There is absolutely nothing to suggest this. So far compliance has been low, so the stick will need to be wielded. It’s not a case that compliance has been low, therefore we just all forget about it and pretend like it never happened, that’s not how it works.
.

Again with the alternative facts. My point is, if this was so important, the staff and resources would already be there, what is the point of having a law and no means of enforcement when it comes into force. My point is that the enforcement is part of the job for those who must deal with every other type of standard planning queries/issues rather than having a dedicated enforcement team.

There is a lot to suggest that this is not being taken seriously, I am not trying to convince you of this, bizarrely you don’t seem to accept that from the CoCos themselves.

awec

Dav010 wrote: »

Again with the alternative facts. My point is, if this was so important, the staff and resources would already be there, what is the point of having a law and no means of enforcement when it comes into force. My point is that the enforcement is part of the job for those who must deal with every other type of standard planning queries/issues rather than having a dedicated enforcement team.

There is a lot to suggest that this is not being taken seriously, I am not trying to convince you of this, bizarrely you don’t seem to accept that from the CoCos themselves.

No idea there the "alternative facts" are in my post. What part specifically? The part where I said that because it hasn't been strongly enforced in the very first month that we're not just going to totally ignore it forever? Is that the part you take issue with? What's your point here? That the past 30 days are proof of a law that will never, ever be enforced anywhere? I think we've jumped the shark now, and the mental gymnastics are becoming a bit much.

Anyway, what gave you this impression?

This notion that it has not been taken completely seriously yet is totally irrelevant. It is not proof that it will never be taken seriously. It is not proof that there will never be enforcement. It is not proof that this legislation will not work.

So once again, give it some time. If there is still no enforcement 6 months from no and nobody has been prosecuted then it will be time to become concerned, and we can all write to our TDs to ensure they understand that this legislation must be enforced.

In the meantime, people need to relax, and avoid trying to declare it a failure as quickly as possible, no matter how strong their desire to see it fail is.

John_Rambo

Carlos Slow Traitor wrote: »

The vast majority of people either don’t care or don’t want this enforced from my experience. I think it’s being forgotten how many people use Airbnb and the lack of this option will p*ss off a lot of people.

In fairness Nox, “vast majority of people” don't want to AirBnB in the various small estates you lived in or indeed on your parents land in the West Midlands.
They want to AirBnB in cities and towns or places of natural beauty, Westport, Limerick, Howth, Kinsale, Galway City, Dublin City, Cork City, Kerry, Strandhill etc…

I have three friends that live in three different complexes that have agreed with management to ban Airbnb lettings.

The "Vast Majority of People” in your head seems to be your close circle of friends that lead the exact same lifestyle as yourself.

awec

awec wrote: »

I think you’re suffering from a bout of delusion.

How? Why would the majority of people actually care about this being enforced bar a tiny number of people looking to rent who naively think this will make any difference and the few campaigners on here who I’m not even sure why they are so behind such an idiotic rule.

It’s either a total non story to the vast majority of people or they will be annoyed that they may find it harder to get Airbnb accommodation in cork, Dublin or Galway etc when visiting. Also a lot of people would be fully behind a property owner right to let a property as they wish to maximize their profits and would be very against these nanny state rules. I think a few in here are blinded by their absolute hatred for LLs and don’t realise.

Personally I hope to see close to zero compliance and I expect very little if any enforcement as for a start it’s very difficult to enforce by the councils own admission.

John_Rambo wrote: »

In fairness Nox, “vast majority of people” don't want to AirBnB in the various small estates you lived in or indeed on your parents land in the West Midlands.
They want to AirBnB in cities and towns or places of natural beauty, Westport, Limerick, Howth, Kinsale, Galway City, Dublin City, Cork City, Kerry, Strandhill etc…
.

I’ve no idea what relevance this has to my point, I never claimed Airbnb was as popular outside cities (though you are wide of the mark on both counts about Airbnb not being common in estates I lived in or my home area not being popular with tourists).

awec

If this legislation was as unpopular as you want it to be all of the opposition political parties would be all over it, hammering FG.

In reality, and back in the real world, FG are more likely to get hit if they fail to adequately enforce it, not for imposing it in the first place.

I do believe people care about this. There is a housing crisis, and I believe the majority of people want to see steps taken to resolve it. It's an issue that dominates our politics. This legislation is one piece of the puzzle. I think you need to step outside your little bubble.

As for the notion that there's a significant portion of the population that sympathizes with landlords, that's definitely one that made me laugh. Have you learnt nothing the past few years? We have RPZs, which absolutely no one wants to get rid of. We have bans on AirBnB, which absolutely nobody wants to get rid of. When was the last time the government did anything pro-landlord? It's bad politics, pure and simple, because people care more about providing homes to people than they do about landlord profits.

Edgware

People want it enforced until they go to Dublin, London etc and are gouged by hotels.
Stories of disruptive behaviour by Airbnb users are greatly exaggerated.
Family groups like the idea of renting an apartment rtc for a few days. No pressure on meal times etc

Dav010

Dav010 wrote: »

No matter how much you would want to be right, the facts confirmed my CoCos say otherwise, people are ignoring it.

How can you be sure. Maybe they’re letting within the rules. It’s only been in a month.

Edgware

Just look at the way Councils enforce all the other regulations which they are supposed to enforce. Litter, housing standards etc.
They have neither the staff or the inclination to do it. The process and standard of proof necessary to get a conviction for misuse of Airbnb is so complicated that it will never be widely used. Maybe a few token prosecutions against some patsy but any solicitor worth his salt would drive a coach and four through this legislation. All an owner has to do is produce a
document showing he leased the property to someone else and he wasnt aware they did Airbnb. The Council have to prove the case

John_Rambo

Carlos Slow Traitor wrote: »

I’ve no idea what relevance this has to my point, I never claimed Airbnb was as popular outside cities (though you are wide of the mark on both counts about Airbnb not being common in estates I lived in or my home area not being popular with tourists).

Ok. I’ll explain in simple terms.

Carlos Slow Traitor wrote: »

The vast majority of people either don’t care or don’t want this enforced from my experience. I think it’s being forgotten how many people use Airbnb and the lack of this option will p*ss off a lot of people.

The vast majority of people that live in residential areas that are popular with AirBnB do care what goes on around them and a lot of people don’t like short term AirBnB lets.

I’m talking Westport, Kinsale, Dublin city centre, Lahinch etc… not the outskirts of Tuam where there isn’t a comparable tourist industry.

Bluefoam

Edgware wrote: »

Just look at the way Councils enforce all the other regulations which they are supposed to enforce. Litter, housing standards etc.
They have neither the staff or the inclination to do it. The process and standard of proof necessary to get a conviction for misuse of Airbnb is so complicated that it will never be widely used. Maybe a few token prosecutions against some patsy but any solicitor worth his salt would drive a coach and four through this legislation. All an owner has to do is produce a
document showing he leased the property to someone else and he wasnt aware they did Airbnb. The Council have to prove the case

Litter has been widely dealt with... General littering has been largely in decline for years and our streets are much cleaner... this has been dealt with by enforcement & community development. I'm not sure what your point is about housing standards, but the build quality currenty is of a very high level by international standards, or are you talking about the level of care for housing?

Both of these issues can fall down in some areas, but I'd be reluctant to put the blame on the local councils... some people you just can't reach, which is the way they want it, well they get it... local people need to look after their own front door... scummers will remain scummers until their communities make it clear that it's not acceptable. I presume you are refering to people not looking after the social housing they have been provided?

I suppose the same goes for AirBNB... local communities will help manage the rogue landlords who try to take advantage... I'll certainly be quick to do my part if I see a scummer throw their chicken nugget box on the street, or if someone is running an illegal hotel from a residential property...

TSQ

Bluefoam wrote: »

Litter has been widely dealt with... General littering has been largely in decline for years and our streets are much cleaner... this has been dealt with by enforcement & community development. I'm not sure what your point is about housing standards, but the build quality currenty is of a very high level by international standards, or are you talking about the level of care for housing?

Both of these issues can fall down in some areas, but I'd be reluctant to put the blame on the local councils... some people you just can't reach, which is the way they want it, well they get it... local people need to look after their own front door... scummers will remain scummers until their communities make it clear that...

The improvement in litter in the inner city is not due to enforcement but to council regularly cleaning up after scummers who wont pay for bin collection. There is no enforcement per se, i.e.prosecuting scummers, which means that the clean up cost falls on the wider community. Furthermore, when the rare prosecution is taken the courts take the usual lenient view towards those whose anti-social activities impact the rest of us. Cameras were trialled in a couple of locations in Dublin north city, so residents could name and shame, but was discontinued due to invasion of “privacy” of the scummers, usual leftie crhp, so local residents have no idea which of their neighbours are tossing their disposable nappies on the street.

John_Rambo

John_Rambo wrote: »

The vast majority of people that live in residential areas that are popular with AirBnB do care what goes on around them and a lot of people don’t like short term AirBnB lets. .

And I would disagree, the vast majority don’t care and have far bigger concerns like being stuck next to a council house or other bad neighbors.

Dav010

[Deleted User] wrote: »

How can you be sure. Maybe they’re letting within the rules. It’s only been in a month.

Eh, because the report said there were nearly 3000 entire homes advertised to let in Dublin on Airbnb, and Dublin CoCo had received four, yes four applications for planning, that is about 0.03%.

John_Rambo

Carlos Slow Traitor wrote: »

And I would disagree, the vast majority don’t care and have far bigger concerns like being stuck next to a council house or other bad neighbors.

And your wrong about the vast majority again, why do you think these rules are bring bought in? For the craic? Residents have concerns about AirBnB short term lettings!
You just don’t know any.

Here's a report on the Spencer Dock banning that you don't know about.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/blanket-airbnb-ban-placed-on-dublin-apartment-complex-1.2836859

Reasons given that you wouldn't know about:

"common areas are like a hotel lobby, with people coming day and night"

"Footfall has also increased, with many cleaners coming in and out of the estate"

"Incidences of anti-social behaviour, especially at weekends, and Spencer Dock security has been called in to remove rowdy guests"

"Seriously negative impact on all residents in Spencer Dock by taking away their right to live in their homes in peace and quiet”

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Carlos Slow Traitor wrote: »

And I would disagree, the vast majority don’t care and have far bigger concerns like being stuck next to a council house or other bad neighbors.

People can be both concerned about bad neighbours and Airbnb.

Disruption due to noisy neighbours = bad
Disruption due to a constant stream of different people, some likely to be noisy = bad

City centre apartment buildings must be very disrupted by Airbnb operations happening in the building.

awec wrote: »

The rule has been out what, one month?

Some people are getting a little bit too excited in their attempts to try and poke holes.

All we need is for a few chancers to be taken to the cleaners and things will improve. Give it time.

My thoughts too. It’s very soon to be crowing about the regulations not working.

Edgware

Bluefoam wrote: »

Litter has been widely dealt with... General littering has been largely in decline for years and our streets are much cleaner... this has been dealt with by enforcement & community development. I'm not sure what your point is about housing standards, but the build quality currenty is of a very high level by international standards, or are you talking about the level of care for housing?

Both of these issues can fall down in some areas, but I'd be reluctant to put the blame on the local councils... some people you just can't reach, which is the way they want it, well they get it... local people need to look after their own front door... scummers will remain scummers until their communities make it clear that it's not acceptable. I presume you are refering to people not looking after the social housing they have been provided?

I suppose the same goes for AirBNB... local communities will help manage the rogue landlords who try to take advantage... I'll certainly be quick to do my part if I see a scummer throw their chicken nugget box on the street, or if someone is running an illegal hotel from a residential property...

Will you do something about the local scumbags who throw rubbish in the street?
The anti Airbnb crowd are just begrudgers who hate seeing others making money. Where are all these complaints about Airbnb users? Mostly in the begrudgers heads

Graham

Edgware wrote: »

The anti Airbnb crowd are just begrudgers who hate seeing others making money.

I don't begrudge anyone making money. I just don't think it's appropriate for residential accommodation to be repurposed as holiday accommodation.

Dav010

Graham wrote: »

I don't begrudge anyone making money. I just don't think it's appropriate for residential accommodation to be repurposed as holiday accommodation.

I would prefer to have a bad short term let where I know they will be gone in a day or two, than a bad tenant for a year. I mean that both as a property owner and neighbor..

Bluefoam

Dav010 wrote: »

I would prefer to have a bad short term let where I know they will be gone in a day or two, than a bad tenant for a year. I mean that both as a property owner and neighbor..

Well, you are obviously a talented business operator, with commercial accumen... why don't you put that talent into opening a hotel that meets the rigours of regulation and meets the legal requirement... instead of buying residential property and running it as a second rate hotel and trying to convince others to break the klaw so that you can hide in numbers...

Bluefoam

Bluefoam wrote: »

Well, you are obviously a talented business operator, with commercial accumen... why don't you put that talent into opening a hotel that meets the rigours of regulation and meets the legal requirement... instead of buying residential property and running it as a second rate hotel and trying to convince others to break the klaw so that you can hide in numbers...

What’s “second rate” about an Airbnb? Airbnb’s aren’t hotel nor trying to be hotels and this is one of the reasons they are popular as they can offer a lot more than a hotel for some people and are better value in most cases. Most Airbnb’s are done to a very high standard as otherwise you will get poor reviews.

I see no reason why Airbnb’s can’t be exempted under the same rules as small B&Bs are, they aren’t really comparable either as they offer a lot more than a B&B but they are far closer to that than a hotel and would allow people run their small aid Airbnb business without outbgetying bigged down in regulations and prohibitive costs which would make it unviable.

Graham

Dav010 wrote: »

I would prefer to have a bad short term let where I know they will be gone in a day or two, than a bad tenant for a year. I mean that both as a property owner and neighbor..

Bit of a false dilemma there Dav010.

I'd prefer to have normal/reasonable long-term neighbours, as would most people I suspect.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Edgware wrote: »

Will you do something about the local scumbags who throw rubbish in the street?
The anti Airbnb crowd are just begrudgers who hate seeing others making money. Where are all these complaints about Airbnb users? Mostly in the begrudgers heads

There have been mainstream reports of lives disrupted by next-door Airbnbs. Are these people more likely to be envious begrudgers or to just want peaceful enjoyment of their home?

Dav010 wrote: »

I would prefer to have a bad short term let where I know they will be gone in a day or two, than a bad tenant for a year. I mean that both as a property owner and neighbor..

For neighbouring residents, neither a bad tenant or frequent noisy short-term guests is an attractive prospect. The best scenarios are either a good tenant or nothing but quiet short term guests. The good tenant scenario is probably the easiest to ensure.

Graham wrote: »

Bit of a false dilemma there Dav010.

I'd prefer to have normal/reasonable long-term neighbours, as would most people I suspect.

Yeah, that false dilemma is annoying. As if every long term neighbour will be disruptive.

Bluefoam

Carlos Slow Traitor wrote: »

What’s “second rate” about an Airbnb? Airbnb’s aren’t hotel nor trying to be hotels and this is one of the reasons they are popular as they can offer a lot more than a hotel for some people and are better value in most cases. Most Airbnb’s are done to a very high standard as otherwise you will get poor reviews.

Hotels are regulated in order to maintain a high level of standard, this benefits both the customer and Irish society in general.. Many AirBNB's ignore the regulation and do whatever they like... they don't meet any standards and many are illegal under law... they don't have appropriate planning and are often run by cowboys who are looking for a quick buck because they have found the reguklar house rental market actually takes too much management to take advantage of...