Cities around the world that are reducing car access

Peregrine

CatInABox wrote: »

Yes, was sure that'd be scrapped. Great news, perhaps the council is growing a spine when it comes to the car lobby.

It was very close. In the end, there was a motion proposed by Ray McAdam to carry out a bunch of work to alleviate any issues in nearby areas and it swung the maybes to vote in favour. Before the meeting, it was split something like 1/3 in favour, 1/3 against and 1/3 maybe.

cgcsb

That's brilliant, the sheer volume of kids and parents cycling to schools there is amazing to see.

magicbastarder

i was at a dublin cycling campaign meeting a few years ago, attended by some road engineers; and one did turn to those present and say '*please* contact your local respresentatives if you want things done'.
seems many of them were sympathetic to many ideas being floated, but as is normal, the naysayers are louder than the yeasayers, even if signifcantly outnumbered, so it was perceived lack of support which meant the engineers were sitting on their hands.

p_haugh

Glad that the Grangegorman trial has been made permanent. In the same neck of the woods, the Phoenix Park report was also unveiled yesterday with some great changes proposed: https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1348732238981181447?s=19

Thelonious Monk

Yeah but they're saying 7 years for the Phoenix Park, reality is it could be implemented in a few weeks but they don't want to anger the motoring crowd, rather pull the plaster off excruciatingly slowly and hopefully have new jobs or be retired before the real anger starts to come from motorists and local politicians.

Sam Russell

cgcsb wrote: »

Why wait until after the 2024 Olympics? Surely that's an ideal time to show off a new centrepiece or the city.

When I first seen the arch as a teenager I remember being disappointed because the surrounding environment was so unpleasant for pedestrians.

When is the next election due in Paris?

MJohnston

Sam Russell wrote: »

When is the next election due in Paris?

2026 — Hidalgo was reelected, by a wide margin in June last year. Notably after she'd introduced most of her car reduction measures.

cgcsb

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Yeah but they're saying 7 years for the Phoenix Park, reality is it could be implemented in a few weeks but they don't want to anger the motoring crowd, rather pull the plaster off excruciatingly slowly and hopefully have new jobs or be retired before the real anger starts to come from motorists and local politicians.

same cr@p with busonnects, years of disruption when the summer of 2020 with lockdown could have given us a seamless transition over 8-12 weeks

Peregrine

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Yeah but they're saying 7 years for the Phoenix Park, reality is it could be implemented in a few weeks but they don't want to anger the motoring crowd, rather pull the plaster off excruciatingly slowly and hopefully have new jobs or be retired before the real anger starts to come from motorists and local politicians.

To be fair, when you look at the timeline, most of it is in the first three years. I don't know why they want to drag out Ashtown Gate and Knockmaroon Road.

cgcsb

p_haugh wrote: »

Glad that the Grangegorman trial has been made permanent. In the same neck of the woods, the Phoenix Park report was also unveiled yesterday with some great changes proposed: https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1348732238981181447?s=19

With the bus connects CBCs, Grangegorman and the Phoenix Park mobility plan this could put a squeeze on Infirmary Road, Oxmantown and Phibsboro cross.

A second round of CBCs to accommodate orbital buses will be needed in the immediate future if busconnects is going to work out. I would say making the NCR/Infirmary Road turn bus only and putting in a bus gate in Phibsboro between Mr Tubbs Laundry and the Spar would finish the job for decongesting D7 anyway. Throw in a bike gate similar to Grangegorman on Oxmantown and you've a large quadrant of Central Dublin operating on a low-car / access only basis.

CatInABox

cgcsb wrote: »

With the bus connects CBCs, Grangegorman and the Phoenix Park mobility plan this could put a squeeze on Infirmary Road, Oxmantown and Phibsboro cross.

A second round of CBCs to accommodate orbital buses will be needed in the immediate future if busconnects is going to work out. I would say making the NCR/Infirmary Road turn bus only and putting in a bus gate in Phibsboro between Mr Tubbs Laundry and the Spar would finish the job for decongesting D7 anyway. Throw in a bike gate similar to Grangegorman on Oxmantown and you've a large quadrant of Central Dublin operating on a low-car / access only basis.

According to the details of this Phoenix Park plan, the N2 orbital is no longer going down Infirmary Road. I assume the O orbital still is.

cgcsb

CatInABox wrote: »

According to the details of this Phoenix Park plan, the N2 orbital is no longer going down Infirmary Road. I assume the O orbital still is.

I'm confused by the report, not sure if they're saying the N2 will be rerouted or they are going to start a completely new and separate bus route running from Broombridge to Heuston. I did just skim it to be fair.

CatInABox

cgcsb wrote: »

I'm confused by the report, not sure if they're saying the N2 will be rerouted or they are going to start a completely new and separate bus route running from Broombridge to Heuston. I did just skim it to be fair.

The only thing that makes sense is for the N2 to be rerouted. It wouldn't make sense for another bus going most of the same route as the N2 to exist, but the presence of a trip generator like Dublin Zoo might make them bump up the frequency from 15/20 minutes.

MJohnston

It's a relatively minor N2 rerouting between Heuston and Nephin Road (going inside the park rather than around the NCR) that they're proposing:



It's a no brainer if you ask me!

Peregrine

Yes, a minor rerouting of the N2 and an interim route between Broombridge and Heuston. Although, the N2 is supposed to start operation in just over a year so I don't know if we'll see an interim bus route.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

It's a relatively minor N2 rerouting between Heuston and Nephin Road (going inside the park rather than around the NCR) that they're proposing:



It's a no brainer if you ask me!

Totally agree with you that it makes sense.

It creates a meaningful connection between three traffic generators (Heuston Station, the Phoenix Park, and Broombridge Station), links in with several corridors, and, very importantly, removes the overlap with the O and 37 routes along Infirmary Road, NCR, and Blackhorse Avenue respectively that the current proposed route for the N2 has.

cgcsb

Would be interesting to see how the N2 will manage on Chesterfield Ave on a busy weekend. There are other traffic management proposals but whether they're enough to stop the bus being held up for an hour as can happen cars on a busy day.

The bus option also seems to neglect the need for a bus that goes to the city centre. The 46a will be gone, replaced with an orbital at that location and the nearest radial bus routes will be the infrequents: 37 and 80. If they threw in a new '37a' that takes in the length of Chesterfield and joins the normal 37 outside of the park that operated at equal frequency to the existing 37 and then banned through car journeys entirely I'd be completely happy. The whole thing seems to be overly concerned with car commuters.

Pete_Cavan

Is there a case to be made for sending the bus route the other way on North Road and having it pass the front gate of the Zoo before joining Chesterfield Ave? North Road between Cabra Gate and Garda HQ could be bus only, plus peds/cyclists and park mgmt, Zoo and Áras access) then which would be a quicker route and avoids any messing about on Chesterfield Ave. Chesterfield Ave would need pretty severe speed ramps to ensure the 30km/h limit is adhered to, probably integrated with raised table pedestrian crossings, would aren't good for buses. Instead, just put bus gates at Zoo and north of Cabra Gate and do as necessary on Chesterfield Ave without having to compromise to accommodate buses. If North Road is closed to private traffic, surely it makes sense for public transport to then make use of it rather than battling it out with everyone on Chesterfield Ave.

There would also be scope for another bus route from the city all the way along North Road, exiting through either Castleknock or Ashtown Gates.

MJohnston

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Is there a case to be made for sending the bus route the other way on North Road and having it pass the front gate of the Zoo before joining Chesterfield Ave?

The zoo entrance is in fact slightly closer to Chesterfield Avenue than North Road.

Related to that, one of my submissions in the consultation would be that there should be a pedestrian crossing at the Cricket Club/Zoo gate alignment, instead of (or in addition to) the one they have planned at the entrance to the zoo car park.

Pete_Cavan

MJohnston wrote: »

The zoo entrance is in fact slightly closer to Chesterfield Avenue than North Road.

Not sure what your point here is. I was suggesting that buses should use the currently mostly pedestrianised road that passes the Zoo entrance to move between Chesterfield Ave and North Road. They then have a dedicated route along North Road to the Cabra Gate, avoiding Chesterfield Ave north of the Zoo.

MJohnston

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Not sure what your point here is. I was suggesting that buses should use the currently mostly pedestrianised road that passes the Zoo entrance to move between Chesterfield Ave and North Road. They then have a dedicated route along North Road to the Cabra Gate, avoiding Chesterfield Ave north of the Zoo.

It's not mostly pedestrianised road — it's a fully pedestrianised path! And with good reason, considering how many crowds of small children there are around the entrance at busiest times. No, we shouldn't be rolling back pedestrianisation here at all.

Beyond that, there are other realities that would prevent this —

* Angle of the Cabra gates would almost certainly prevent a bus from turning from North Road (westbound) onto Blackhorse Avenue. Maybe they can rebuild these gates, but I'm willing to wager there's some amount of protected structure here.
* The reason for sending it all the way up Chesterfield is also to provide a stop for access to the Aras and the Phoenix Park Visitor Centre/Ashtown Castle.
* The road changes in the mobility plan should have a significant reduction in through-park traffic, which would stop the buses getting stuck in traffic.
* Most of the northbound traffic I've seen in Phoenix Park is usually between the northernmost roundabout and the Castleknock gates. Buses would depart Chesterfield Avenue at the Aras roundabout, making them unlikely to encounter much traffic even if the road system wasn't changed.
* Most of the southbound traffic is between the Zoo and the main gates, meaning your rerouting wouldn't reduce traffic interaction.

I think they've picked the correct routing tbh

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

Would be interesting to see how the N2 will manage on Chesterfield Ave on a busy weekend. There are other traffic management proposals but whether they're enough to stop the bus being held up for an hour as can happen cars on a busy day.

The bus option also seems to neglect the need for a bus that goes to the city centre. The 46a will be gone, replaced with an orbital at that location and the nearest radial bus routes will be the infrequents: 37 and 80. If they threw in a new '37a' that takes in the length of Chesterfield and joins the normal 37 outside of the park that operated at equal frequency to the existing 37 and then banned through car journeys entirely I'd be completely happy. The whole thing seems to be overly concerned with car commuters.

The O route, whilst described as an orbital does serve Beresford Place, Amiens Street and Connolly Station, which is in the city centre, so it's not true that no bus will link directly with the city centre and Phoenix Park.

People will also be able to use the 90 minute fare that will cover changes en route. The N2 will interlink with the C Spine and LUAS at Heuston Station, and the B Spine on the Navan Road.

The 80 while less frequent than a Spine is planned to operate every 15 minutes, but in reality (given it is a replacement for the 14) will probably operate every 12 minutes off-peak as the 14 now does. Every 12-15 minutes is hardly "infrequent".

cgcsb

The point is it's a major destination and the Park is pretty central but under the proposals there's no direct service to the city centre. Taking the O to Connolly is a bit round the houses to be fair. I'm not saying the N2 extension is a bad idea just that there should also be a direct radial service going through the very centre of the park, the 37 and 80 just clip the edges.

MJohnston

cgcsb wrote: »

The point is it's a major destination and the Park is pretty central but under the proposals there's no direct service to the city centre. Taking the O to Connolly is a bit round the houses to be fair. I'm not saying the N2 extension is a bad idea just that there should also be a direct radial service going through the very centre of the park, the 37 and 80 just clip the edges.

In fairness, the whole point of BusConnects is to emphasise the potential of interchange. It seems counterproductive to clog up the city centre with another route, when people could just hop on the Luas to Heuston and then switch to the N2 to get to the park (or walk).

There should also be a consideration for a Dublin Bikes expansion into fringe areas of the park.

p_haugh

cgcsb wrote: »

I'm confused by the report, not sure if they're saying the N2 will be rerouted or they are going to start a completely new and separate bus route running from Broombridge to Heuston. I did just skim it to be fair.

I took it that report is assuming that the N2 will begin operations as planned this year, however they suggest that an interim bus route between Broombridge and Heuston will be provided if the implementation of Bus Connects routes gets delayed any further.

cgcsb

MJohnston wrote: »

In fairness, the whole point of BusConnects is to emphasise the potential of interchange. It seems counterproductive to clog up the city centre with another route, when people could just hop on the Luas to Heuston and then switch to the N2 to get to the park (or walk).

There should also be a consideration for a Dublin Bikes expansion into fringe areas of the park.

That's true for suburban areas, i.e. that not not every estate needs a direct bus and a bit of a walk or change of bus is more beneficial to more people in terms of journey time. However in this instance we are talking about a central area with significant trip generators, particularly in summer. From the zoo inwards is pretty central I think it's fair to say, and it'll have no radial service.

cgcsb

p_haugh wrote: »

I took it that report is assuming that the N2 will begin operations as planned this year, however they suggest that an interim bus route between Broombridge and Heuston will be provided if the implementation of Bus Connects routes gets delayed any further.

It was my understanding that it would be March 2022 when the N2 and O are introduced?

p_haugh

Another thing to note (slightly off topic but relevant to the proposed N2 rerouting) - I assume the plan for Heuston is to make Frank Sherwin Bridge 2-way for buses?
It looks like this is the case going by the network map, but I didn't see any mention of it in the Bus Connects reports.
Otherwise buses would be required to go down the quays to the Rory O'Morre Bridge which adds unneccesary travel time.

p_haugh

cgcsb wrote: »

It was my understanding that it would be March 2022 when the N2 and O are introduced?

Sorry yes you are correct there, so there may indeed be an interim route if they want to start it this year then

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

That's true for suburban areas, i.e. that not not every estate needs a direct bus and a bit of a walk or change of bus is more beneficial to more people in terms of journey time. However in this instance we are talking about a central area with significant trip generators, particularly in summer. From the zoo inwards is pretty central I think it's fair to say, and it'll have no radial service.

Sorry but the O route completely dispels that notion. It will replace virtually all of the existing services along the SCR and NCR, within the canals, and means that many more people will have to change onto it from radial routes that are re-directed elsewhere.