Cities around the world that are reducing car access

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

Fingers crossed that DCCC go ahead with it. It could be just stored on the shelf next to the liffey cycle route.

I'd caution against expecting an immediate implementation, as it is predicated on the revised network of bus routes through the city centre, which remove most of the turns at O'Connell Bridge, rather than the current bus network. I'm not saying that it isn't possible, but it probably would be more difficult.

But, on the positive side, it does appear that most of the final preparatory work for implementing phase 1 of the revised network is happening as we speak, which would auger well for this.

The detailed design work will presumably take a little while in any case.

cgcsb

LXFlyer wrote: »

I'd caution against expecting an immediate implementation, as it is predicated on the revised network of bus routes through the city centre, which remove most of the turns at O'Connell Bridge, rather than the current bus network. I'm not saying that it isn't possible, but it probably would be more difficult.

But, on the positive side, it does appear that most of the final preparatory work for implementing phase 1 of the revised network is happening as we speak, which would auger well for this.

The detailed design work will presumably take a little while in any case.

If so, that's 2024, possible still before the liffey cycle route.

Thelonious Monk

MJohnston wrote: »

That supports my theory that the reason kids don't play in the street "like they used to" is because of the increased number of cars in the country. Not some other nefarious, hypothetical threat.

God yeah now that I think of it, I haven't seen kids playing squares since we used to in the 90s. Just wouldn't be possible now.
There are still so many people out there that think taking car access from places is unfair and favours the people living nearby, but nothing is stopping people getting their by other means, they might not just be able to do it as easily.
All this talk of restricting cars to the Phoenix Park wouldn't bother me, even though it's a bit of a pain to get to, I'd just maybe go there once a year or every couple of years or so, and meanwhile take advantage of things that are easier to get to in my vicinity.

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

If so, that's 2024, possible still before the liffey cycle route.

Well a significant amount of the relevant routes would be done before that and the remaining ones could probably be re-routed temporarily.

Thelonious Monk

https://mobile.twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1354752164971819008

The looney left cycling Mafia or DCC are considering issuing fines for illegal parking. To be fair it would probably clean the city up overnight.

cgcsb

I'm fine with cars overstaying their paid time being clamped. Don't understand how we seem to be the only country that doesn't toe away nuisance parkers. Even in the centre of the city parking on footpaths and cycle lanes is common and they aren't event clamped, never mind removed.

Thelonious Monk

We would need a clamper van for every street really to enforce parking properly, fines are a start.

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

We would need a clamper van for every street really to enforce parking properly, fines are a start.

A lot simpler to just get rid of the on street parking altogether and realocate the space to wider paths, protected cycle lanes and bus infrastructure

Seth Brundle

Deleted User wrote: »

A lot simpler to just get rid of the on street parking altogether and realocate the space to wider paths, protected cycle lanes and bus infrastructure

There would be a revenue loss from that which would need to be topped up from central exchequer funds. Can't imagine our TDs not becoming vocal in that case given that they'd be pestered by those who expect to be able to park wherever they choose.

Thelonious Monk

Deleted User wrote: »

A lot simpler to just get rid of the on street parking altogether and realocate the space to wider paths, protected cycle lanes and bus infrastructure

They would still park on the wider paths as they already do all over Ireland

cgcsb

Deleted User wrote: »

A lot simpler to just get rid of the on street parking altogether and realocate the space to wider paths, protected cycle lanes and bus infrastructure

The Oslo approach, it also requires effective enforcement. There's no getting around enforcement no matter how hard Irish culture tries to avoid it.

Seth Brundle

Seth Brundle wrote: »

There would be a revenue loss from that which would need to be topped up from central exchequer funds. Can't imagine our TDs not becoming vocal in that case given that they'd be pestered by those who expect to be able to park wherever they choose.

Forces CoCo's to become more innovative in their revenue streams.

Take for example Galway City Council. The city is fubar due to congestion, but the very council charged with making the city livable and accessible have a vested interest in making sure that doesnt happen.

Logical, not in the least.

Personally, for Galway city, I'd love to see the free car parks closed at the county & city offices for 90 days a years or every Tuesday & Wednesday or anything at all along those lines. Would go a long way to focusing the minds of those working there on alternatives to cars & parking

People seem to have a difficult time accepting that cars are a necessary part of life, and that life involves doing awkward things sometimes.

(This is a Dublin story) A few weeks before christmas, when the restrictions were lifted, a friend of a friend got a new tv, chair and wardrobe for his apartment. The only way to get it in, was to park the car with the hazards outside the door of the building, to be able to carry the stuff from the street to the apartment (two wheels on the path kinda job, still space to drive and walk by on either side, including wheelchairs/buggies). Only took about 5-10 minutes but even in that time I was approached by a passing Garda car to tell me to move the car.

They didn't actually make me move it (as it was obvious what we were doing) but had I been halfway into the apartment with a wardrobe in my hands, i faced a very real prospect of a fine/clamp for doing what is just a normal everyday activity.

(I appreciate it's not an everyday activity in an individual sense, obviously as an individual you do this kinda thing once every five years maybe, but with so many people around, it's surely a daily task in the city). It's a pain in the hole.


Used to work as a delivery driver for Harvey Norman and you'd be grand almost anywhere in the country, except Dublin. Even though you'd be in a branded courier van, with a big box hanging out the back door, you get grief.


I'm all for enforcing parking where someone decides 'feck it' and parks blocking a lane of traffic so they can call into Mary for an hour, but there is such a thing as over-enforcing things, that just makes daily life needlessly difficult.

wonski

You can just drop your stuff at the location and move the car and park it legally. Its not like you accidentally bought all that stuff. You should plan things.

Not sure what that story is about.

Gardai didn't give you a hard time.

Sure if you park illegally you risk a fine.

You are talking from your perspective, what about delivery drivers? They just doing their job and risking a fine more time than you

Pete_Cavan

cgcsb wrote: »

I'm fine with cars overstaying their paid time being clamped. Don't understand how we seem to be the only country that doesn't toe away nuisance parkers. Even in the centre of the city parking on footpaths and cycle lanes is common and they aren't event clamped, never mind removed.

Towing offending cars is not efficient. It takes too long to tow one car and the truck get back on the streets. Issuing fines is the quickest and most efficient way to enforce. Enforcement will be much more effective and illegal parking will be disincentivised.

Sam Russell

Deleted User wrote: »

People seem to have a difficult time accepting that cars are a necessary part of life, and that life involves doing awkward things sometimes.

(This is a Dublin story) A few weeks before christmas, when the restrictions were lifted, a friend of a friend got a new tv, chair and wardrobe for his apartment. The only way to get it in, was to park the car with the hazards outside the door of the building, to be able to carry the stuff from the street to the apartment (two wheels on the path kinda job, still space to drive and walk by on either side, including wheelchairs/buggies). Only took about 5-10 minutes but even in that time I was approached by a passing Garda car to tell me to move the car.

They didn't actually make me move it (as it was obvious what we were doing) but had I been halfway into the apartment with a wardrobe in my hands, i faced a very real prospect of a fine/clamp for doing what is just a normal everyday activity.

(I appreciate it's not an everyday activity in an individual sense, obviously as an individual you do this kinda thing once every five years maybe, but with so many people around, it's surely a daily task in the city). It's a pain in the hole.


Used to work as a delivery driver for Harvey Norman and you'd be grand almost anywhere in the country, except Dublin. Even though you'd be in a branded courier van, with a big box hanging out the back door, you get grief.


I'm all for enforcing parking where someone decides 'feck it' and parks blocking a lane of traffic so they can call into Mary for an hour, but there is such a thing as over-enforcing things, that just makes daily life needlessly difficult.

7 am to 7 pm = enforcement. Outside that time span - not so much enforcement, but some enforcement.

If you are delivering during those hours, then park legally and bring help. I have seen delivery vehicles parking partly on the pavement, across a cycle lane, the rest on the busy Merrion Road out side Tescos in a clearway. hat is close to he full house. I am not sure how long for, but not a few minutes.

Not policed of course.

cgcsb

Deleted User wrote: »

People seem to have a difficult time accepting that cars are a necessary part of life, and that life involves doing awkward things sometimes.

(This is a Dublin story) A few weeks before christmas, when the restrictions were lifted, a friend of a friend got a new tv, chair and wardrobe for his apartment. The only way to get it in, was to park the car with the hazards outside the door of the building, to be able to carry the stuff from the street to the apartment (two wheels on the path kinda job, still space to drive and walk by on either side, including wheelchairs/buggies). Only took about 5-10 minutes but even in that time I was approached by a passing Garda car to tell me to move the car.

They didn't actually make me move it (as it was obvious what we were doing) but had I been halfway into the apartment with a wardrobe in my hands, i faced a very real prospect of a fine/clamp for doing what is just a normal everyday activity.

(I appreciate it's not an everyday activity in an individual sense, obviously as an individual you do this kinda thing once every five years maybe, but with so many people around, it's surely a daily task in the city). It's a pain in the hole.


Used to work as a delivery driver for Harvey Norman and you'd be grand almost anywhere in the country, except Dublin. Even though you'd be in a branded courier van, with a big box hanging out the back door, you get grief.


I'm all for enforcing parking where someone decides 'feck it' and parks blocking a lane of traffic so they can call into Mary for an hour, but there is such a thing as over-enforcing things, that just makes daily life needlessly difficult.

Invest in some sort of trolley to move large items on the footpath between a legal space and the destination. You don't have a right to park illeglaly just because you think your circumstances are exceptional.

cgcsb

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Towing offending cars is not efficient. It takes too long to tow one car and the truck get back on the streets. Issuing fines is the quickest and most efficient way to enforce. Enforcement will be much more effective and illegal parking will be disincentivised.

True. The fine has to be significant though, significant enough to equal the hassle of going to some suburban car storage facility.

Pete_Cavan

cgcsb wrote: »

True. The fine has to be significant though, significant enough to equal the hassle of going to some suburban car storage facility.

I may be taking this up wrong but from reading tweets from Dublin Commuter Coalition (they should have chosen a name that has a unique abbreviation!), the value of fines seems to be limited under national legislation. Of course that could be changed but that takes time. A high fine isn't necessarily a better deterrent anyway, many people have the attitude that all the times they didn't pay for parking covers the fine. The low probability of getting caught facilitates this, increase the likelihood of getting caught and behaviours will change.

Having enforcement personnel merely issuing fines and not having to clamp/tow the vehicle, would see their productivity go through the roof. They also wouldn't be limited by the number of clamps and wouldn't have to return to the vehicle to remove each one. Simply take photos of the offending vehicle and put the sticker on the window informing the driver, then move onto the next offender.

wonski

wonski wrote: »

what about delivery drivers? They just doing their job and risking a fine more time than you

In that very same post you quoted, I said i was a delivery driver... :rolleyes:

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

If you are delivering during those hours, then park legally and bring help.

No. That's impossible. If you did that deliveries would take 3-4 times as long as they do, would cost extra in manpower/wages and would result in massive delivery fees, or just no delivery at all.

cgcsb wrote: »

Invest in some sort of trolley to move large items on the footpath between a legal space and the destination.

Nobody wants to do this - too many potential claims. If that was the way you had to do it, no one would do it.

cgcsb wrote: »

You don't have a right to park illeglaly just because you think your circumstances are exceptional.

Entire purpose of the post, which seems lost on those with the anti-car agenda (shock horror) is that they aren't exceptional circumstances, they're called daily life.



I'm not surprised people posting in this thread are anti-everything (sure why not deliver the mattress on an electric scooter) but the circumstances mentioned in my post are normal, everyday activities that occur in everyone's lives. Making them difficult, in a city that's already fallen down the list of nice places to live, just to push an anti-car agenda, in a country that expects people to travel 2+ hours to get to work, is nonsense.

Pete_Cavan

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Having enforcement personnel merely issuing fines and not having to clamp/tow the vehicle, would see their productivity go through the roof. They also wouldn't be limited by the number of clamps and wouldn't have to return to the vehicle to remove each one. Simply take photos of the offending vehicle and put the sticker on the window informing the driver, then move onto the next offender.

That's how it works in pretty much every county outside of Dublin city, though. I'm not sure why Dublin went down the clamping route in the first place. Just opens them up to potential claims of damaged cars, and having to spend a fortune on their oversized tow trucks.

Zebra3

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No. That's impossible. If you did that deliveries would take 3-4 times as long as they do, would cost extra in manpower/wages and would result in massive delivery fees, or just no delivery at all.



Nobody wants to do this - too many potential claims. If that was the way you had to do it, no one would do it.




Entire purpose of the post, which seems lost on those with the anti-car agenda (shock horror) is that they aren't exceptional circumstances, they're called daily life.



I'm not surprised people posting in this thread are anti-everything (sure why not deliver the mattress on an electric scooter) but the circumstances mentioned in my post are normal, everyday activities that occur in everyone's lives. Making them difficult, in a city that's already fallen down the list of nice places to live, just to push an anti-car agenda, in a country that expects people to travel 2+ hours to get to work, is nonsense.

You keep using the phrase anti-car like it’s a bad thing.

Thelonious Monk

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not surprised people posting in this thread are anti-everything (sure why not deliver the mattress on an electric scooter) but the circumstances mentioned in my post are normal, everyday activities that occur in everyone's lives. Making them difficult, in a city that's already fallen down the list of nice places to live, just to push an anti-car agenda, in a country that expects people to travel 2+ hours to get to work, is nonsense.

The place is a total mess from cars as is. I'm sure your scenario would go unnoticed whatever measures were brought in but at the moment it's a free for all and congestion is really bad in Dublin anyway.
If we pushed the anti-car agenda, the city would become a far nicer place to live, that's the thing.

hans aus dtschl

Deleted User wrote: »

People seem to have a difficult time accepting that cars are a necessary part of life, and that life involves doing awkward things sometimes.

(This is a Dublin story) A few weeks before christmas, when the restrictions were lifted, a friend of a friend got a new tv, chair and wardrobe for his apartment. The only way to get it in, was to park the car with the hazards outside the door of the building, to be able to carry the stuff from the street to the apartment (two wheels on the path kinda job, still space to drive and walk by on either side, including wheelchairs/buggies). Only took about 5-10 minutes but even in that time I was approached by a passing Garda car to tell me to move the car.

They didn't actually make me move it (as it was obvious what we were doing) but had I been halfway into the apartment with a wardrobe in my hands, i faced a very real prospect of a fine/clamp for doing what is just a normal everyday activity.

(I appreciate it's not an everyday activity in an individual sense, obviously as an individual you do this kinda thing once every five years maybe, but with so many people around, it's surely a daily task in the city). It's a pain in the hole.


Used to work as a delivery driver for Harvey Norman and you'd be grand almost anywhere in the country, except Dublin. Even though you'd be in a branded courier van, with a big box hanging out the back door, you get grief.


I'm all for enforcing parking where someone decides 'feck it' and parks blocking a lane of traffic so they can call into Mary for an hour, but there is such a thing as over-enforcing things, that just makes daily life needlessly difficult.

But you had the hazards on?
Could the Garda not see you had them on?

Pete_Cavan

The fines relate to non-commercial vehicles parking in loading bays so the changes should ultimately bemore benefit to delivery drivers then a hindrance. The obvious issue then is the lack of loading bays in some areas. The solution to this is disincentivising private cars in the area and converting on street parking to loading bays, bike parking and a mixture of hard and soft landscaping.

hans aus dtschl

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The fines relate to non-commercial vehicles parking in loading bays so the changes should ultimately bemore benefit to delivery drivers then a hindrance. The obvious issue then is the lack of loading bays in some areas. The solution to this is disincentivising private cars in the area and converting on street parking to loading bays, bike parking and a mixture of hard and soft landscaping.

That's pretty much it, as I see it.

I've been fined - more than once - for what the posted "KKV" describes above.
I lifted very large and heavy speakers and amp racks in and out of venues for years and it was inevitable that I would get fined. If you're alone and delivering multiple 20+ kg items, you'll naturally seek to park as near the premises as possible, irrespective of wheel boards or anything else. I don't consider my fines to be incorrect or unfair, it was just unfair that there was a lack of any alternative for me. There would be 15-20 parking spaces right at the delivery location and all full indefinitely. The nearest available parking would have been hundreds of metres away. Basically the existing available space was badly allocated and used by motorists for convenience.

And we have "set-down areas" which are heavily abused where I am too. These are intended for very short periods of usage, but the period is not defined and it's hard to police and many people leave their vehicles parked in them for long periods. Again, the existing available space is badly allocated.

So just saying that I can play "poor delivery man" too.
Seeking leave to park on a footpath is an antisocial backward mindset. It gets us nowhere.

riddlinrussell

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

That's pretty much it, as I see it.

I've been fined - more than once - for what the posted "KKV" describes above.
I lifted very large and heavy speakers and amp racks in and out of venues for years and it was inevitable that I would get fined. If you're alone and delivering multiple 20+ kg items, you'll naturally seek to park as near the premises as possible, irrespective of wheel boards or anything else. I don't consider my fines to be incorrect or unfair, it was just unfair that there was a lack of any alternative for me. There would be 15-20 parking spaces right at the delivery location and all full indefinitely. The nearest available parking would have been hundreds of metres away. Basically the existing available space was badly allocated and used by motorists for convenience.

And we have "set-down areas" which are heavily abused where I am too. These are intended for very short periods of usage, but the period is not defined and it's hard to police and many people leave their vehicles parked in them for long periods. Again, the existing available space is badly allocated.

So just saying that I can play "poor delivery man" too.
Seeking leave to park on a footpath is an antisocial backward mindset. It gets us nowhere.

Exactly, don't say 'There's nowhere to park for deliveries so we HAVE to park on the pavement', instead get organised and push for more parking to be turned into delivery bays, push for car bans in towns so deliveries are easier, push for distribution networks to leave last mile deliveries to cargo bikes and small vans.

cgcsb

Deleted User wrote: »

Nobody wants to do this - too many potential claims. If that was the way you had to do it, no one would do it.

How is the potential claims different from moving large items from an illegally parked vehicle? Is it not just bone idleness?

Deleted User wrote: »

Entire purpose of the post, which seems lost on those with the anti-car agenda (shock horror) is that they aren't exceptional circumstances, they're called daily life.



I'm not surprised people posting in this thread are anti-everything (sure why not deliver the mattress on an electric scooter) but the circumstances mentioned in my post are normal, everyday activities that occur in everyone's lives. Making them difficult, in a city that's already fallen down the list of nice places to live, just to push an anti-car agenda, in a country that expects people to travel 2+ hours to get to work, is nonsense.

well you lost me at 'anti-car agenda' but I kept reading regardless. The list of most livable cities in Europe is also a list of cities where parking enforcement is swift and brutal. It's also a list of places where the 'anti-car agenda' is decades ahead of Dublin. There is no effective enforcement of any rules in this country, suggesting that enforcing existing rules will reduce quality of life is frankly ridiculous. You blocking footpaths with a van reduces quality of life. Have you been to the cities on this list?

Seth Brundle

Deleted User wrote: »

People seem to have a difficult time accepting that cars are a necessary part of life, and that life involves doing awkward things sometimes.

(This is a Dublin story) A few weeks before christmas, when the restrictions were lifted, a friend of a friend got a new tv, chair and wardrobe for his apartment. The only way to get it in, was to park the car with the hazards outside the door of the building, to be able to carry the stuff from the street to the apartment (two wheels on the path kinda job, still space to drive and walk by on either side, including wheelchairs/buggies). Only took about 5-10 minutes but even in that time I was approached by a passing Garda car to tell me to move the car.

They didn't actually make me move it (as it was obvious what we were doing) but had I been halfway into the apartment with a wardrobe in my hands, i faced a very real prospect of a fine/clamp for doing what is just a normal everyday activity.

(I appreciate it's not an everyday activity in an individual sense, obviously as an individual you do this kinda thing once every five years maybe, but with so many people around, it's surely a daily task in the city). It's a pain in the hole.


Used to work as a delivery driver for Harvey Norman and you'd be grand almost anywhere in the country, except Dublin. Even though you'd be in a branded courier van, with a big box hanging out the back door, you get grief.


I'm all for enforcing parking where someone decides 'feck it' and parks blocking a lane of traffic so they can call into Mary for an hour, but there is such a thing as over-enforcing things, that just makes daily life needlessly difficult.

So we can assume that you were effectively blocking traffic and traffic would need to navigate around you.
To mitigate this, you mounted the path (which is not good for the path) and proceeded to block it.
Now, had you kept the car fully on the road, how many more cars would have had to navigate around your car?
The answer is none as they all had to go around you already!
So why park on the path then?