Cities around the world that are reducing car access

magicbastarder

magicbastarder wrote: »

theft is a problem, yes. but i don't see how that addresses my point.

Well i can only assume your point applies to people who already live within or very near the city, who don't need a car. Otherwise my previous points would apply about people having to commute from far away to get to work, and obviously they're not going to cycle in.




If I lived in Dublin city, and didn't require a car for work, I personally would have an electric scooter for getting about on. It would have to be something small enough that I can stick a strap on it to throw it over my shoulder when using shops etc, and so I can bring it into my workplace with me.


Traditional bicycles are far too commonly stole, require messing about with locks if you wish to pop into a shop on your way to or from work, etc. so although I don't think bicycles are the answer (anymore) I do see your point in general, and I would agree with it.


Although I'm pro-car for Dublin, based on the necessity of those often overlooked (long distance commuters), I can't see any realistic argument as to why someone who already lives in the city wouldn't have an electric scooter in lieu of a car. I know I would.


The government not getting the finger out and making them legal for road use is a stumbling block here, though.

Seth Brundle

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Dublin's air pollution, of which traffic emissions are a significant contributor, has breached EU safety levels...
https://irishcycle.com/2020/09/25/dublin-forced-to-take-action-as-air-pollution-linked-to-traffic-breaches-eu-limits/
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/bad-air-day-pollution-in-dublin-reaches-levels-of-smoky-coal-era-30-years-ago-1.4423929
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0708/1060952-nitrogen-oxide/

It was a nonsense argument to make. Worded that "innocent people" are killed, as if by simply driving a car you're a murderer. :rolleyes:

magicbastarder

magicbastarder wrote: »

herein lies the problem, i guess.

But that line of thinking, a car that doesn't get in anyone's way, means that all cars parked, are "hostile". A car park is, as a result, a horrible place. On-street parking dirties towns. People's driveways are ruining the place, etc.


I could understand your argument if you said that, perhaps, lots of old or damaged, abandoned cars are a hostile thing. For example if you've a busy mechanics on the street, and they have cars pulled apart all over the place. It might not be in your way, but it's an eyesore. Like graffiti, it'll bring the area down.

But a normal, everyday, parked car, is not a hostile piece of furniture on a street, in my opinion.

magicbastarder

oh for god's sake, if dublin city council announced that people were allowed stand all over the road chatting, as long as there was room for cars to drive around them, that motorists simply had to suck it up; and someone thus described DCC as being 'hostile' to motorists, would you be on nit-picking about that choice of words? hostile is a perfectly normal term to use in the context.

donvito99

Deleted User wrote: »

Traditional bicycles are far too commonly stole, require messing about with locks if you wish to pop into a shop on your way to or from work, etc. so although I don't think bicycles are the answer (anymore) I do see your point in general, and I would agree with it.

.

The fact that you prefer an electric scooter, with little casters for wheels, over an electric bicycle on Dublin's roads says a lot about your reasoning generally.

Zebra3

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not though. It's the reality of the situation for many people. You're just glossing over those people because, presumably, their situation doesn't affect you, so who cares about them. "Not my problem.

The ironing is delicious.

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not fully sure, but I think, I could be wrong, but think that's the stupidest thing I've read on boards in the past 12 months.

You obviously don't read your own posts so.

Thelonious Monk

Why do you live in Monaghan if you work in Dublin? And why should Dubliners plan their city around people who choose not to live here?

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Why do you live in Monaghan if you work in Dublin? And why should Dubliners plan their city around people who choose not to live here?

I can't believe you asked that.


house prices, rental prices, jobs located in city.


enough said.

Thelonious Monk

Yes jobs are in the city, so live in or around the city, not in Monaghan! You might have to live in Coolock or Finglas, and you might not have your massive bungalow like you have in Monaghan but you can't have your cake and eat it.

Thelonious Monk

https://twitter.com/grescoe/status/1249794072941920261

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Yes jobs are in the city, so live in or around the city, not in Monaghan! You might have to live in Coolock or Finglas, and you might not have your massive bungalow like you have in Monaghan but you can't have your cake and eat it.

No, what you actually need is a proper PT system that allows some to go to a local railway station, get the train to the city then go on to a urban PT system that takes them close to their place of work in a reasonable length of time.


With WFH that journey for many will be weekly in the future not daily.

Thelonious Monk

Our government prefers to spend billions and billions on rural motorways and bypasses, that's what wins votes, not trains, unfortunately.
https://www.thejournal.ie/new-dual-carriageway-mayo-4852399-Oct2019/
There you go, 250 million to be spent on roads in Mayo, because that's what'll win votes. Not trains. Sure what good are trains to people in one off housing? This country is ridiculous.

Zebra3

Deleted User wrote: »

No, what you actually need is a proper PT system that allows some to go to a local railway station, get the train to the city then go on to a urban PT system that takes them close to their place of work in a reasonable length of time.


With WFH that journey for many will be weekly in the future not daily.

So Monaghan should now be considered commuter belt for Dublin?

Seriously?

Zebra3

Zebra3 wrote: »

So Monaghan should now be considered commuter belt for Dublin?

Seriously?

Athlone is a commuter town, so why not, anywhere that can be reached by train in under an hour is considered commuter territory.
Horrible to have to travel such distances, but unless companies start to diversify their places of business, then commuting will be a must.


Unfortunately, not all jobs are suitable for WFH or remote office in a nearby town.

Zebra3

Zebra3 wrote: »

The ironing is delicious.

Man, you don't even know where people are commuting from, probably best to not try to be cocky.

magicbastarder wrote: »

oh for god's sake, if dublin city council announced that people were allowed stand all over the road chatting, as long as there was room for cars to drive around them, that motorists simply had to suck it up; and someone thus described DCC as being 'hostile' to motorists, would you be on nit-picking about that choice of words? hostile is a perfectly normal term to use in the context.

No, I've no issue with Hostile as a word being used, but your description above of pedestrians being in the way of cars is, again, different to what I described. If I have to go out of my way to avoid a pedestrian standing in the middle of the road, you could liken that to a car that parks taking up most of the footpath.

But that's clearly not what we were talking about. We were talking about cars parked in a manner that don't impede pedestrians or traffic. If you wanted to flip it, it'd be like saying a pedestrian sitting on a bench on a footpath is hostile to motorists. They're not; as they're not in the way.

donvito99 wrote: »

The fact that you prefer an electric scooter, with little casters for wheels, over an electric bicycle on Dublin's roads says a lot about your reasoning generally.

Roads are grand, in my opinion. See lots of scooters about. No issue with them, would be my preferred option.

Zebra3 wrote: »

So Monaghan should now be considered commuter belt for Dublin?

Seriously?

The fact that you're questioning this shows how little you know about the commuter issue. There are people travelling from Leitrim because the only jobs that pay half well are in Dublin, but they can't afford a property there.

Monaghan is an everyday commute for a lot of people.

Thelonious Monk

Deleted User wrote: »

The fact that you're questioning this shows how little you know about the commuter issue. There are people travelling from Leitrim because the only jobs that pay half well are in Dublin, but they can't afford a property there.

Monaghan is an everyday commute for a lot of people.

I have a friend who commutes from Laois, but he could definitely afford to live here in some capacity, he just wouldn't be near his family or friends.
Of course you could live in Dublin, you choose not to because you would have to reduce your living standards in a smaller place. That's the kicker when it comes to living in a city.
I used to live in London in a total sh*thole bedsit with holes in the windows because that's all I could afford.
I'm just trying to make the point that we can't be designing the city around people who decide to live way out and don't even pay LPT here.

Zebra3

Deleted User wrote: »

Athlone is a commuter town, so why not, anywhere that can be reached by train in under an hour is considered commuter territory.

But there is no way of reaching Dublin from Monaghan within an hour by train.

Deleted User wrote: »

Man, you don't even know where people are commuting from, probably best to not try to be cocky.

I'm fully aware of where people commute from. :rolleyes: I don't live in a bubble away from society and don't work from home.

Deleted User wrote: »

Monaghan is an everyday commute for a lot of people.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean the City of Dublin should be pandering to their needs on how the city should be designed.

If people choose an unsustainable way of life, that's their problem.

LXFlyer

Deleted User wrote: »

We were talking about cars parked in a manner that don't impede pedestrians or traffic.

I am struggling with this comment a little.

I'd have to say that at this stage the number of locations along the key arteries around the city centre, the routes along which the city bus routes operate, where you are going to be able to stop on the road with your hazard lights flashing without causing an obstruction to at least one form of traffic, is diminishing significantly, surely?

Most of the routes now have either cycle lanes or bus lanes (or both) painted on them which means that you would be blocking either bikes or buses and forcing them to join general traffic.

DCC have had to resort to extreme measures to protect cycle lanes (and in come cases bus lanes) by installing wands to prevent cars stopping in the the cycle lanes due to the large volumes of people who ignored them and repeatedly did stop with hazard lights flashing.

magicbastarder

the irish times weekend section is dedicated to how we coud reimagine dublin city; this is one of the articles from it:

Walkable, cycle-friendly Dublin: The planning model that could change the city

Dublin city is undergoing a remarkable transformation. After years, decades even, of stalled progress on cycling and pedestrian schemes, they are suddenly springing up like weeds across the city.

Never before has there been such momentum in the installation of segregated, protected cycle lanes, but also in better provision for pedestrians with the creation of wider footpaths pedestrianised zones and the rebalancing of traffic lights in their favour.

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/art-and-design/walkable-cycle-friendly-dublin-the-planning-model-that-could-change-the-city-1.4469161

MJohnston

I don’t think there’s a greater harbinger of a movement to reduce car access than NYC adding cycle lanes to the Brooklyn and Queensboro bridges:

https://www.dezeen.com/2021/01/29/cycle-lanes-new-york-city-architecture-news/

Thelonious Monk

https://twitter.com/whittledaway/status/1355472355359924224

Zebra3

magicbastarder wrote: »

the irish times weekend section is dedicated to how we coud reimagine dublin city; this is one of the articles from it:

Walkable, cycle-friendly Dublin: The planning model that could change the city

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/art-and-design/walkable-cycle-friendly-dublin-the-planning-model-that-could-change-the-city-1.4469161

Great to read what's going on as I've only been in the heart of the city centre twice since things were first locked down.

The best part of reading it was the feeling of momentum. The pendulum seems to have finally swung, and as the old dinosaurs and their car-centric extremist views die off, the city will be a far better place for everyone.

Thelonious Monk

Zebra3 wrote: »

Great to read what's going on as I've only been in the heart of the city centre twice since things were first locked down.

The best part of reading it was the feeling of momentum. The pendulum seems to have finally swung, and as the old dinosaurs and their car-centric extremist views die off, the city will be a far better place for everyone.

When you look at the opposition to Sandymount you would wonder though. My Twitter is an echo chamber of people who support cycling and walking options but if you ever look at comments on these things half of them are foaming at the mouth about the Greens ruining the city.

LXFlyer

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

When you look at the opposition to Sandymount you would wonder though. My Twitter is an echo chamber of people who support cycling and walking options but if you ever look at comments on these things half of them are foaming at the mouth about the Greens ruining the city.

To be fair I suspect the main opposition to the Strand Road plans arises from uncertainty about where the northbound through traffic using that route to access the north side via the toll bridge is going to be diverted to.

The next available right turn off the Merrion Road is Serpentine Avenue leading to Tritonville Road. It is questionable if that route is suitable for significant amounts of additional traffic.

Larger vehicles would have to continue north into the city (Westland Row) due to the low railway bridges north of Lansdowne Road and the weight restriction on roads off Merrion Road.

DCC probably didn’t help themselves by not putting clear diversion routes out when they proposed this.

On the other hand most of the city centre issues are solvable with relatively minor diversions.

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I have a friend who commutes from Laois, but he could definitely afford to live here in some capacity, he just wouldn't be near his family or friends.
Of course you could live in Dublin, you choose not to because you would have to reduce your living standards in a smaller place. That's the kicker when it comes to living in a city.
I used to live in London in a total sh*thole bedsit with holes in the windows because that's all I could afford.
I'm just trying to make the point that we can't be designing the city around people who decide to live way out and don't even pay LPT here.

I don't agree at all. Was there not something on the news recently that you had to be making 100k to afford the cheapest apartment in Dublin city.

Unsustainable is the government approach to property, rather than the person trying to keep food on the table. I work with an estate agent and have first hand seen the council come and outbid people on houses so they could put social tenants in place.

They also banned bedsits and introduced minimum standards. A double-edged sword as it removed anywhere that was affordable.

People are rarely in a position to just buy a property, so when the time comes for them to get into a property of their own, they look at the figures, and if they can afford a house in Monaghan, but not in Dublin, guess where they buy.


The city is not just for those who live in it. It's our capital city and should be accessible to all, even more so, it should be accessible to those who have to work there, but can't afford to live there.

I could understand you shrugging your shoulders at my opinion if I was referring to a couple of people who were too mean to pay for a house in Dublin, but the issue is massively widespread and affects a huge, huge number of people. Every motorway into dublin is thronged with traffic in the mornings. It's not because people love the 'me time' sitting in traffic, it's because they've no other choice.

cgcsb

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't agree at all. Was there not something on the news recently that you had to be making 100k to afford the cheapest apartment in Dublin city.

Unsustainable is the government approach to property, rather than the person trying to keep food on the table. I work with an estate agent and have first hand seen the council come and outbid people on houses so they could put social tenants in place.

They also banned bedsits and introduced minimum standards. A double-edged sword as it removed anywhere that was affordable.

People are rarely in a position to just buy a property, so when the time comes for them to get into a property of their own, they look at the figures, and if they can afford a house in Monaghan, but not in Dublin, guess where they buy.


The city is not just for those who live in it. It's our capital city and should be accessible to all, even more so, it should be accessible to those who have to work there, but can't afford to live there.

I could understand you shrugging your shoulders at my opinion if I was referring to a couple of people who were too mean to pay for a house in Dublin, but the issue is massively widespread and affects a huge, huge number of people. Every motorway into dublin is thronged with traffic in the mornings. It's not because people love the 'me time' sitting in traffic, it's because they've no other choice.

Sorry so what is your ultimate point? That people who have driven from Monaghan should be permitted to park illegally? What does this have to do with anything and why does it matter how far you've driven from?

Feels like you've gone very far from the point of the thread.

LXFlyer

LXFlyer wrote: »

I am struggling with this comment a little

I think that argument became a bit more abstract than being based on a real street in the city. It was more a general argument that, in day to day life, if you park and don't impede others, then you're not an issue in my opinion.


That said, I know I did it in real life (in Dublin). I don't know where though. I was helping a friend with furniture, but I'll try get his address/find it on Google Maps and link back.

Seth Brundle

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It was more a general argument that, in day to day life, if you park and don't impede others, then you're not an issue in my opinion.

You wouldn't necessarily know if you will impede others until after you've parked!

cgcsb

cgcsb wrote: »

Sorry so what is your ultimate point? That people who have driven from Monaghan should be permitted to park illegally? What does this have to do with anything and why does it matter how far you've driven from?

Feels like you've gone very far from the point of the thread.

Not sure why you've intertwined two different comments of mine, but the Monaghan/commuter issue is the issue I'm raising against the city reducing car access (you know.. the thread title).

You seem to be taking it all very personally. I get the impression you live within the city centre and are very much a 'local shop for local people' kind of person.

LXFlyer

Deleted User wrote: »

I think that argument became a bit more abstract than being based on a real street in the city. It was more a general argument that, in day to day life, if you park and don't impede others, then you're not an issue in my opinion.


That said, I know I did it in real life (in Dublin). I don't know where though. I was helping a friend with furniture, but I'll try get his address/find it on Google Maps and link back.

The point stands though - there are fewer and fewer locations to do what you're suggesting on main arterial routes, as more cycle and bus lanes are rolled out in the city. What you suggest might be possible on some quiet side streets, but at this stage doing it on a main road is going to cause an obstruction to someone.

Where I do think you have a point with regard to longer distance commuters is the lack of park and ride options on certain corridors - there is a serious need to beef up such facilities to allow travel into the city from each main corridor.

The main capital projects - BusConnects, Metrolink and the LUAS extension to Finglas should make a difference to this with new P & R facilities being key elements of them.