Everything's easy when you know how

Applegirl26

El CabaIIo wrote: »

Yeah, that's what I meant by cutback weeks. The plan has already them built in but the way the 30 minutes are been added to the longer runs means that they don't exist now.

If you add 30 minutes to a Sunday moderate 80 minutes moderate long run, it's caught up to the 2:15 long easy long run in mileage because the moderate section is so much faster. The way luke designed that plan, there's a cutback week every second week because the effect the long run has on beginner runners.

Jeez I never realised I was sabotaging my own training like that. I just kept adding on the 30 mins and never thought I may be cancelling out the cutback weeks.

There's meant to be a cutback week every second week? I have not been feeling that....

Thanks so much El Caballo, OOnegative and Skyblue. You all have just saved my marathon!

El CabaIIo

It's just little things that can make a big difference, if you look at this week that started Monday the 4th Feb. You moved this Workout back a day and added what I presume would be 35 minutes

Thurs, Feb 7th 
(05:06) plan: 60 mins moderate 

I ran 15 mins warm up, then 60 mins @ pace 11:17, hr 153 followed by a 2 mile cool down. In total I ran 8.4 miles this morning. 

So you have a long and moderate workout with almost 2 hours in duration and only one day between doing this workout on Saturday where another 35 minutes is added which was over two hours and had a moderate section. These things can add an awful lot of strain which is multiplied again by the short recovery of only one day. Ideally if you can on weeks like this, you want to be doing the first moderate run Tuesday so there is 3 days of recovery between it and the next moderate effort.

Sat, Feb 9th 
(06:31) plan: 70 mins moderate 

I ran a 30 minute warm up, then 70 minutes @ 10:52 pace, followed by a 2 mile cool down

I know your schedule is difficult but try to keep these things in mind and you'll be laughing and on the right track. Your level of dedication is brilliant and an absolute asset(I know I'd probably crumble in the little pieces doing something like above) but you got to focus on doing the right things and then you will be absolutely flying.

Applegirl26

El CabaIIo wrote: »

It's just little things that can make a big difference, if you look at this week that started Monday the 4th Feb. You moved this Workout back a day and added what I presume would be 35 minutes

Thurs, Feb 7th 
(05:06) plan: 60 mins moderate 

I ran 15 mins warm up, then 60 mins @ pace 11:17, hr 153 followed by a 2 mile cool down. In total I ran 8.4 miles this morning. 

So you have a long and moderate workout with almost 2 hours in duration and only one day between doing this workout on Saturday where another 35 minutes is added which was over two hours and had a moderate section. These things can add an awful lot of strain which is multiplied again by the short recovery of only one day. Ideally if you can on weeks like this, you want to be doing the first moderate run Tuesday so there is 3 days of recovery between it and the next moderate effort.

Sat, Feb 9th 
(06:31) plan: 70 mins moderate 

I ran a 30 minute warm up, then 70 minutes @ 10:52 pace, followed by a 2 mile cool down

I know your schedule is difficult but try to keep these things in mind and you'll be laughing and on the right track. Your level of dedication is brilliant and an absolute asset(I know I'd probably crumble in the little pieces doing something like above) but you got to focus on doing the right things and then you will be absolutely flying.

That all makes perfect sense, thanks so much.

skyblue46

Wow, lots of stuff since I was last here! L, I really hope you didn't mind my input. It was with the best of intentions. Some great advice for you there.

Applegirl26

skyblue46 wrote: »

Wow, lots of stuff since I was last here! L, I really hope you didn't mind my input. It was with the best of intentions. Some great advice for you there.

Yes, I've gotten amazing feedback. I'm beyond grateful for it.

No, no I didn't mind in the least S! I truly welcome all advice. It was with the best of intentions and I took it that way. Honest to God.

If you had said nothing I'd still be clueless now and wondering why I was so tired etc. Look at all the guidance you created for me! Ha! I'm forever grateful.

AuldManKing

I'll be looking out for you in the park now that I know who you are (well, maybe not at 5:30am!)

Applegirl26

AuldManKing wrote: »

I'll be looking out for you in the park now that I know who you are (well, maybe not at 5:30am!)

Ha ha! Cool.

Applegirl26

I'm back, two weeks to catch up on...

Manchester training
Week 8:

Mon
Plan: 60 mins very easy

I ran 7 miles @ 12:24 (added on a bit extra)


Tues
Plan: 60 mins very easy

I ran 8 miles @ 12:29 (added on extra)


Wed
Plan: 30 mins tempo

I ran a 30 min warm up, then 3 miles @ 9:46, then a 30 min cool down.

I headed to the PP for this one. Great run.


Thurs
Plan: 60 mins very easy

Heading the advice of the brilliant El Caballo and Skyblue, I ran just the 5 miles @ 12:43.


Fri
Plan: 60 mins very easy

I ran 6 miles @ 12:35.


Sat
Plan: 90 min progression run, easy, moderate, tempo.

I think I did OK on this one. I can't say that I enjoy progression runs-there's far too much math and watch checking for my liking but I do respect them. They teach me to increase up my speed at the end of the run when I'm tired and all I want to do is stop, not go faster. I had worked out the numbers and scribbled them on my wrist before I headed out.

12:25,12:15,11:46,11:25,10:57,10:31, 10:03, 09:27

My cool down was a run home: 3.2 miles


Sun: rest

Weekly total : 45.6 miles

_________________________________


Week 9


Mon
Plan: 60 mins very easy

I ran 7 miles @ 12:33


Tues
Plan: 5*8 mins threshold with 4 min jog recovery

I ran a 2 mile warm up which brought me to the Furze road in the PP. I love this road! Then I ran the session as above. All in all I ran 6 miles @ 10:02. For cool down I ran home: 20 mins.

I really enjoyed this run. Next year I think I will follow plans that have lots of sessions like this one in them.


Wed
Plan: 60 mins very easy

I ran 5 miles @ 12:21.


Thurs
Plan: 60 mins very easy

I ran 7 miles @ 12:29.


Fri
Plan: 60 mins very easy

I ran 7 miles @ 12:42.

This was the first morning where the sun had come up by the time I had finished an early run. I smiled a little to myself. The reason I signed up for Manchester was to give myself something to focus on and to keep me running through the winter. I had done it. Spring was now here… yay.

It was also the morning of my Daddy's anniversary and I now understood that the darkest night is indeed before the brightest dawn.


Sat
Plan: 2 hours 30 mins easy

I ran 14 miles @ 11:47.
2 hrs 45 mins.

There's a Manchester training group that I joined recently and while the people in the group are lovely, they have unsettled me also. They are all running their 20 milers and more even. I've been running long enough now to know that I shouldn't compare myself to anyone else. But I want to do well. I want to stand at that start line knowing that I gave my training all I had. So I was a bit naughty on this run and I added 15 mins on. It still only brought me up to 14 miles…
The good news though is that I practised fueling with jelly babies from mile 5 and apart from tasting delicious, I managed them fine. I took a jelly baby every mile and I didn't feel at all tired at the end. I stashed my water bottle along my route and I took a few sips when I passed it.


Sun: rest


Weekly total : 49 miles


So week 10 starts tomorrow. My homework for this week will be to keep a clear head and not panic that I haven't trained enough. I have started to think about my plan for the day itself as in how I will approach the distance. Rather than counting the miles I have broken it down into a half marathon, then a ten miler and finally a parkrun. I think miles 18-23 will be the toughest part and from now on, I'm going to make a huge effort to get my head in the right zone for the day.

“The race always hurts. You don't train so it doesn't hurt. You train so you can tolerate it”.

I'm hoping that once I hit mile 24, the crowd will take me home. Hopefully I will have climbed over the wall by then and won't be crushed under it!
I have not forgotten the mistakes I made in Dublin, I will have my banana and my flat coke with me!

And if all else fails….head down and one foot in front of the other.


Later!

ReeReeG

Trust the plan L

It's so easy to compare yourself to others, god knows I do it myself, but anyone can see you're a dedicated and smart runner. Keep up what you're doing and you'll be tackling marathon day good and strong!

Applegirl26

ReeReeG wrote: »

Trust the plan L

It's so easy to compare yourself to others, god knows I do it myself, but anyone can see you're a dedicated and smart runner. Keep up what you're doing and you'll be tackling marathon day good and strong!

Thanks V. That means a lot.

Yup trust the plan. I am. I'm trying to.

There was one dude in the Manchester group who said that if it takes you 5 hrs to run a marathon then you need to be running a lot more than 3 hrs for your long runs. I can see where he's coming from but I think I'll just get injured if I run several 20 milers that will take me 4+ hrs in training.
I think I might leave that group... Ha ha!

ReeReeG

Applegirl26 wrote:

There was one dude in the Manchester group who said that if it takes you 5 hrs to run a marathon then you need to be running a lot more than 3 hrs for your long runs. I can see where he's coming from but I think I'll just get injured if I run several 20 milers that will take me 4+ hrs in training. I think I might leave that group... Ha ha!

I'm pretty sure I've read on here before that the gains from 3+ hour long runs are minimal but your risk of injury increases alright.. law of diminishing returns or something like that.
Someone more knowledgeable than I will likely chime in on that

skyblue46

Applegirl26 wrote: »

Thanks V. That means a lot.

Yup trust the plan. I am. I'm trying to.

There was one dude in the Manchester group who said that if it takes you 5 hrs to run a marathon then you need to be running a lot more than 3 hrs for your long runs. I can see where he's coming from but I think I'll just get injured if I run several 20 milers that will take me 4+ hrs in training.
I think I might leave that group... Ha ha!

Obviously I have no idea who the dude is but does he know your plan? Does he know how many hours you run in a week and how cumulative fatigue works?

Please, please for your own sake don't take on 20 milers unless you need one for your confidence. If you do I would highly recommend a rest day both before and after.

Applegirl26

ReeReeG wrote: »

I'm pretty sure I've read on here before that the gains from 3+ hour long runs are minimal but your risk of injury increases alright.. law of diminishing returns or something like that.
Someone more knowledgeable than I will likely chime in on that

I've read this too.

Applegirl26

skyblue46 wrote: »

Obviously I have no idea who the dude is but does he know your plan? Does he know how many hours you run in a week and how cumulative fatigue works?

Please, please for your own sake don't take on 20 milers unless you need one for your confidence. If you do I would highly recommend a rest day both before and after.

Skyblue I have no intention of taking on 20 milers! No this guy doesn't know me and he wasn't talking about me. It was a comment said to someone in a group chat but I could see it and I guess took it to heart.
I think I'm just panicking a bit about the marathon. I need to take a breath and trust the plan.

Please don't worry. I won't be running 20 milers. I would be in bits after it!

El CabaIIo

I think it's important to remember when you read things people are saying is that they often hear comments and then stretch them out to cover everything without thinking critically about them.

For instance, say someone was preparing themselves for a 100 mile ultra which would take them 18 hours to complete, would they build up an 18 hour long run alongside the rest of their week? No, in fact a lot of Ultra runners covering 100 mile races train like marathon runners in terms of long run lengths, they do back to back long runs instead to get a cumalative fatigue effect. I'm not advocating that you do what those ultra runners do too for you as you already have that built into your training and running alot.

To Address the 20 mile long run that is touted as 'have to' in marathon training. This is another one of those specific things that got used as a cover all. You have to look where this 'rule' came from to uncover the truth. It came from the 70's when nearly 50% of the marathon fields consisted of people who were sub-3 marathon runners. This is more marathon folklore than anything that lays in fact.

Mileage is man made, time and intensity is all your body understands. For a sub-3 runner, 20 mile long runs come in just under 3 hours. An elite runner might run 28 or 30 miles as a long run once or twice in a schedule but guess what the time that equates for them? A hair under 3 hours too.

You don't train for distance as I said, it's man made. What these coaches who write plans think about is time.

Would it make sense for a 5 hour runner to do a 5 hour long run when an elite is doing 3? It doesn't because thast would mean that 5 hour runner is training harder than a 2 hour runner.

I wrote a post here a couple of years ago explaining this a bit better.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=103533114

On the anxiety, you're in a great position to run a really good marathon. You're almost twice as prepared physically now than you were last year and you know the ropes of running the race much better now. You will be fine honestly!

Applegirl26

El CabaIIo wrote: »

I think it's important to remember when you read things people are saying is that they often hear comments and then stretch them out to cover everything without thinking critically about them.

For instance, say someone was preparing themselves for a 100 mile ultra which would take them 18 hours to complete, would they build up an 18 hour long run alongside the rest of their week? No, in fact a lot of Ultra runners covering 100 mile races train like marathon runners in terms of long run lengths, they do back to back long runs instead to get a cumalative fatigue effect. I'm not advocating that you do what those ultra runners do too for you as you already have that built into your training and running alot.

To Address the 20 mile long run that is touted as 'have to' in marathon training. This is another one of those specific things that got used as a cover all. You have to look where this 'rule' came from to uncover the truth. It came from the 70's when nearly 50% of the marathon fields consisted of people who were sub-3 marathon runners. This is more marathon folklore than anything that lays in fact.

Mileage is man made, time and intensity is all your body understands. For a sub-3 runner, 20 mile long runs come in just under 3 hours. An elite runner might run 28 or 30 miles as a long run once or twice in a schedule but guess what the time that equates for them? A hair under 3 hours too.

You don't train for distance as I said, it's man made. What these coaches who write plans think about is time.

Would it make sense for a 5 hour runner to do a 5 hour long run when an elite is doing 3? It doesn't because thast would mean that 5 hour runner is training harder than a 2 hour runner.

I wrote a post here a couple of years ago explaining this a bit better.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=103533114

On the anxiety, you're in a great position to run a really good marathon. You're almost twice as prepared physically now than you were last year and you know the ropes of running the race much better now. You will be fine honestly!

Thanks so much for that reply El Caballo. All of what you wrote makes total sense. I don't know why I doubt myself sometimes!

I'm going to have a look at that thread now. Thanks.

ariana`

I think your marathon training has been amazing. You have no reason to have doubts but of course that doesn't mean you won't have them - we all do, it's normal, some nerves and anxiety are part of the course when you put so much of yourself into anything, it means a hell of a lot to you and that's where the doubts are coming from. But you're doing really super training and it will pay off. All those early starts - i think you deserve two medals Hang in there now, not long to go, trust the plan

Huzzah!

I understand how you're feeling. Running a marathon is scary. If it wasn't the distance covered in your long runs, it would be nutrition or whether you're covering enough miles in the rest of your runs, or the taper or whether that niggly foot is actually an injury and so on.

I think you're so well prepared. You've covered so many miles in training and you're going to be so strong come marathon day. Of course you can run 20 miles at your easy pace. But, more importantly, I believe you will be really well placed to run 26.2 miles at MP.

Applegirl26

ariana` wrote: »

I think your marathon training has been amazing. You have no reason to have doubts but of course that doesn't mean you won't have them - we all do, it's normal, some nerves and anxiety are part of the course when you put so much of yourself into anything, it means a hell of a lot to you and that's where the doubts are coming from. But you're doing really super training and it will pay off. All those early starts - i think you deserve two medals Hang in there now, not long to go, trust the plan

Thanks so much ariana. You have a lovely way with words.

Applegirl26

Huzzah! wrote: »

I understand how you're feeling. Running a marathon is scary. If it wasn't the distance covered in your long runs, it would be nutrition or whether you're covering enough miles in the rest of your runs, or the taper or whether that niggly foot is actually an injury and so on.

I think you're so well prepared. You've covered so many miles in training and you're going to be so strong come marathon day. Of course you can run 20 miles at your easy pace. But, more importantly, I believe you will be really well placed to run 26.2 miles at MP.

Thanks so much Huzzah! Your words are very reassuring.

Dealerz2.0

ariana` wrote: »

I think your marathon training has been amazing. You have no reason to have doubts but of course that doesn't mean you won't have them - we all do, it's normal, some nerves and anxiety are part of the course when you put so much of yourself into anything, it means a hell of a lot to you and that's where the doubts are coming from. But you're doing really super training and it will pay off. All those early starts - i think you deserve two medals Hang in there now, not long to go, trust the plan

Couldn't of wrote it better!
L, Your training and preparation is brilliant to read up on, well done and keep doing what you have been doing

Applegirl26

Dealerz2.0 wrote: »

Couldn't of wrote it better!
L, Your training and preparation is brilliant to read up on, well done and keep doing what you have been doing

Ah thanks F. That means a lot.

juke

You should go back and read through this log a bit L and the novices thread at this stage of the plan - and remember your enthusiasm and joy and be reminded of everyone's doubts.

Doubts can be good, drive you forward, or they can make you second guess and sap your energy.

Trust and follow the plan, move forward: you have this!

Applegirl26

juke wrote: »

You should go back and read through this log a bit L and the novices thread at this stage of the plan - and remember your enthusiasm and joy and be reminded of everyone's doubts.

Doubts can be good, drive you forward, or they can make you second guess and sap your energy.

Trust and follow the plan, move forward: you have this!

Thanks J. Less than 2 weeks until taper time, I remember us all feeling anxious at this stage for Dublin. At least now, I know what I'm in for on the day.

gypsylee

It has been great to follow your training for this marathon. Your dedication and commitment to your running is outstanding. I am completely in awe of your "middle of the night" runs!

You will have a great second marathon. Can't wait to read your report.

Applegirl26

gypsylee wrote: »

It has been great to follow your training for this marathon. Your dedication and commitment to your running is outstanding. I am completely in awe of your "middle of the night" runs!

You will have a great second marathon. Can't wait to read your report.

Thanks J! That's very kind of you.

OOnegative

Bohermeen off the cards?

Applegirl26

OOnegative wrote: »

Bohermeen off the cards?

Oh yeah, gone... I was really looking forward to it but that's how it goes. Manchester is the priority.

OOnegative

Applegirl26 wrote: »

Oh yeah, gone... I was really looking forward to it but that's how it goes. Manchester is the priority.

Smart move, yip Manchester is the priority.

Kellygirl

Hi L, just wondering how you are?