Beef Plan Movement (READ OP BEFORE POSTING)

Bass Reeves

It was interesting that in this weeks rag that a Dawn Executive gave his opinion after weeks of negativity about dairy cross beef. His opinion was that dairy cross beef in the O+ bracket from 280-360 kgs DW fed the requirement. While he had an issue with breeding at present he was also aware of the demand for marbled beef and of the retailer demand for pack size. It is interesting that this is a contradiction to retired factory managers and Teagasc advisor's opinion. But what would he know about market demand compared to a retired executive or a Teagasc advisor that f@@ked over already.

When you think look a little bit deeper. a few millimeters all the BS about the demand for suckler bred cattle is just a market ploy. Yes they want them sub 30 months, and sub 330kgs DW provided they have the fat cover. Suckler cattle is all about winter finishing and finding idiots to produce them and do it. If 360 is the ideal DW for an O+ animal then an R+ steer or heifer would want to be 30kgs lighter. While we all like a nice ass it all about the fat cover.

wrangler

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It was interesting that in this weeks rag that a Dawn Executive gave his opinion after weeks of negativity about dairy cross beef. His opinion was that dairy cross beef in the O+ bracket from 280-360 kgs DW fed the requirement. While he had an issue with breeding at present he was also aware of the demand for marbled beef and of the retailer demand for pack size. It is interesting that this is a contradiction to retired factory managers and Teagasc advisor's opinion. But what would he know about market demand compared to a retired executive or a Teagasc advisor that f@@ked over already.

When you think look a little bit deeper. a few millimeters all the BS about the demand for suckler bred cattle is just a market ploy. Yes they want them sub 30 months, and sub 330kgs DW provided they have the fat cover. Suckler cattle is all about winter finishing and finding idiots to produce them and do it. If 360 is the ideal DW for an O+ animal then an R+ steer or heifer would want to be 30kgs lighter. While we all like a nice ass it all about the fat cover.

Aren't you expecting someone to produce stores at unviable prices too.
Are you any better than the factories in that
Aren't factories paying to 400kg so they must be selling them,
A factory manager that managed a company in both England and Ireland up to a year ago would know something about markets....probably more than even you.
An O+ is probably alright (just about) but producers selling O= and below might need to be given a few thousand ton to market just to be able to tell the factories their business, If I was a processor I know that's what I'd do with the barstool experts that claim they know what sells and doesn't sell

wrangler

older by the day wrote: »

https://amp.independent.ie/business/farming/news/farming-news/a-hard-brexit-might-be-the-best-thing-for-our-dairy-industry-it-would-free-up-lots-of-land-37699061.html
. is that what teagasc and IF A and our government secretly want. Can someone put this up as a link.

IFA have a beef commitee, I don't know any of them but if it's weighted towards milk, beef farmers only have themselves to blame if it's manned by beef producing dairy farmers .
In all honesty, no one could promote beef production as an enterprise at the moment. you have to promote where the money is whatever about where the future is.

Willfarman

wrangler wrote: »

Aren't you expecting someone to produce stores at unviable prices too.
Are you any better than the factories in that
Aren't factories paying to 400kg so they must be selling them,
A factory manager that managed a company in both England and Ireland up to a year ago would know something about markets....probably more than even you.
An O+ is probably alright (just about) but producers selling O= and below might need to be given a few thousand ton to market just to be able to tell the factories their business, If I was a processor I know that's what I'd do with the barstool experts that claim they know what sells and doesn't sell

Boned out beef from similar age weight and fat cover animals a O- animal compared to an o+ (And assuming honest grading which is questionable more often than not)

There would be no discernable difference in meat quality. If anything the lesser grading carcass might have the edge, it will be more likely to have ideal cut size and a little less expensive sirloin and striploin to market.
And with a difference of of 24cent a kg in the purchase price I would safely take a punt on marketing the dairy bred beef in the highest price and largest market we have which is the uk supermarket trade.

Bass Reeves

wrangler wrote: »

Aren't you expecting someone to produce stores at unviable prices too.
Are you any better than the factories in that
Aren't factories paying to 400kg so they must be selling them,
A factory manager that managed a company in both England and Ireland up to a year ago would know something about markets....probably more than even you.
An O+ is probably alright (just about) but producers selling O= and below might need to be given a few thousand ton to market just to be able to tell the factories their business, If I was a processor I know that's what I'd do with the barstool experts that claim they know what sells and doesn't sell

Like I have said loads of times a finisher works on margin he passes back any lift or cut in prices back down the line. Take lads finishing cattle at present. They are taking a hit of 70/head compared to last year on price and if you consider that a few years ago the base after Christmas was usually 4.1 and above he is back another 70/ head since then. His finishing costs are gone up by another 60+ in the last 12 months. Most lads at it are losing there shirts I am glad I exited it
Lads producing stores need to consider when buying calves or weanlings if they buy less and produce less will they have a better chance of making money. That means stopping competing with exporter's for calves and weanlings, stop buying poorer quality calves and let the dairy industry solve the disposal of them. I exited winter finishing because I could not see a margin in it lads have to look at the margins and exit or reduce numbers where margins are too poor.
If some within the beef industry who want to tinker with the grid payments get there way I will have even less to pass back to store producers. For all the guff about the quality of dairy beef the next time you go into a good butcher most of the beef on display is from O-/O= grading heifer's killing sub 280 kgs.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Like I have said loads of times a finisher works on margin he passes back any lift or cut in prices back down the line. Take lads finishing cattle at present. They are taking a hit of 70/head compared to last year on price and if you consider that a few years ago the base after Christmas was usually 4.1 and above he is back another 70/ head since then. His finishing costs are gone up by another 60+ in the last 12 months. Most lads at it are losing there shirts I am glad I exited it
Lads producing stores need to consider when buying calves or weanlings if they buy less and produce less will they have a better chance of making money. That means stopping competing with exporter's for calves and weanlings, stop buying poorer quality calves and let the dairy industry solve the disposal of them. I exited winter finishing because I could not see a margin in it lads have to look at the margins and exit or reduce numbers where margins are too poor.
If some within the beef industry who want to tinker with the grid payments get there way I will have even less to pass back to store producers. For all the guff about the quality of dairy beef the next time you go into a good butcher most of the beef on display is from O-/O= grading heifer's killing sub 280 kgs.

One thing that's always puzzled me is where the final market for suckler beef actually is.

In general, it doesn't seem to be domestic retail or the British retail market so is it manufacturing beef in general or where?

charolais0153

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

One thing that's always puzzled me is where the final market for suckler beef actually is.

In general, it doesn't seem to be domestic retail or the British retail market so is it manufacturing beef in general or where?

Anywhere but uk and ireland. Ypu wouldnt see too many angus or whiteheads in france and italy

Willfarman

charolais0153 wrote: »

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

One thing that's always puzzled me is where the final market for suckler beef actually is.

In general, it doesn't seem to be domestic retail or the British retail market so is it manufacturing beef in general or where?

Anywhere but uk and ireland. Ypu wouldnt see too many angus or whiteheads in france and italy

That’s why you don’t try bring an apple to sell in a orchard.

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/abp-beef-agrees-irish-hereford-prime-deal-carrefour-italia/

patsy_mccabe

Anyone else think it's high time we had a proper Brand for Irish Beef. One similar to the Red Label and owned by Irish farmers. Otherwise we're just not adding value to a prime product. Selling bottom shelf has no future, in an ever increasing over supplied market.

Willfarman

W

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Anyone else think it's high time we had a proper Brand for Irish Beef. One similar to the Red Label and owened by Irish farmers. Otherwise we're just not adding value to a prime product. Selling bottom shelf has no future, in an ever increasing over supplied market.

We have bord bia and that’s quangos enough!

coolshannagh28

Willfarman wrote: »

W
We have bord bia and that’s quangos enough!

" Bord Bia " really resonates with the UK housewife.

patsy_mccabe

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

" Bord Bia " really resonates with the UK housewife.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55U57kJWuIo

wrangler

Bass Reeves wrote: »

As Albert Johnson posted none of these are realistic options. No2 and 3 are market distorting as well so are against EU rules if state aided. There are a few different type of veal. White Veal in general is produced from calves fed a milk or milk substitute with slaughter at 18-20 weeks. Pink or Rose veal is grain based production to give a pink colour to the meat at 20-30 weeks. Grass fed veal would be a darker red. In general it is not produced in Europe but there is some in Canada and the USA.



Hard for cull cow prices to fall in the Netherlands. Hollands has the lowest priced beef prices in Europe even lower than Poland at times. Why so I do not know. There beef prices are back at around the 3/kg mark



Big difference between dairy bred beef in Ireland and Holland. Holland has an indoor dairy system Holstein based with high replacement rates. All cows would be put back in calf to Holstein breeding because of high replacement rate. In Ireland we are heading towards peak dairy so from now on 60%+ of the calves will be from beef/Dairy crossbreds.



There seems a certain suckler based bias in there plans. A lot of there proposals seem to ignore the reality of where the market is heading. Will they have to deliver, I am not sure the IFA have delivered SFA to beef farmers and west of Ireland farmers for the last 10 years and seem to be able to survive.

IFA don't bad mouth other organisations,
After giving a platform to this sort of abuse the BPM will have to deliver or they'll quickly become irrelevant too.
They've done nothing yet in what will be the worst spring for beef farmers in years, looking to be worse than 2013,
Bord Bia, IFA , Processors etc should really stand back now, because they're being discredited publicly everywhere and they'll be criticised in everything they do from now on. But I know they won't...... foolishly enough.

If BPM had the slightest inkling that farmers would have the backbone to do whats needed they'd have moved by now, It's not as if there isn't a crisis.
They criticise IFA for not being able to do anything and here they are doing nothing

older by the day

wrangler wrote: »

older by the day wrote: »

https://amp.independent.ie/business/farming/news/farming-news/a-hard-brexit-might-be-the-best-thing-for-our-dairy-industry-it-would-free-up-lots-of-land-37699061.html
. is that what teagasc and IF A and our government secretly want. Can someone put this up as a link.

IFA have a beef commitee, I don't know any of them but if it's weighted towards milk, beef farmers only have themselves to blame if it's manned by beef producing dairy farmers .
In all honesty, no one could promote beef production as an enterprise at the moment. you have to promote where the money is whatever about where the future is.

Glad to know that, I taught when beef farmers paid their money to IFA each year, that they should be represented, seems not. Can I get a refund for the past ten years ?

wrangler

charolais0153 wrote: »

Anywhere but uk and ireland. Ypu wouldnt see too many angus or whiteheads in france and italy

Irish cattle wouldn't be in the running with french and italian cattle for conformation, I was on a trip once and the guys with me were wondering how they'd get some of the bulls out of the feedlots home for their suckler herd, there was nothing pedigree as good in Ireland,
French weanlings were brought to a depot and only took 6 or 8 hours to get to the feedlots in Italy.....that time they were cheaper than Irish weanling and no Pnuemonia we were told

Bass Reeves

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

One thing that's always puzzled me is where the final market for suckler beef actually is.

In general, it doesn't seem to be domestic retail or the British retail market so is it manufacturing beef in general or where?

The heifers killing sub 360kgs would be used in the British retail trade some of it would be used in the catering trade. You have School meals in the UK. However most of the bulls and even young bulls as well as the heavier steers would generally targeted at the the Continental market. At the moment the French, German and Italian markets are nearly returning UK prices.

There was a good article in The rag as well about a lad in Wexford that is finishing cattle. His figures are that we need a price of around 4.5/kg for winter finishing. however he was on that he taught we should be paid on meta yield. I not sure what some lads are thinking about it would give processors another stick to beat us with.

wrangler wrote: »

IFA don't bad mouth other organisations,
After giving a platform to this sort of abuse the BPM will have to deliver or they'll quickly become irrelevant too.
They've done nothing yet in what will be the worst spring for beef farmers in years, looking to be worse than 2013,
Bord Bia, IFA , Processors etc should really stand back now, because they're being discredited publicly everywhere and they'll be criticised in everything they do from now on. But I know they won't...... foolishly enough.

If BPM had the slightest inkling that farmers would have the backbone to do whats needed they'd have moved by now, It's not as if there isn't a crisis.
They criticise IFA for not being able to do anything and here they are doing nothing

The BPM is 3-4 months old and some lads are expecting miracles already. This is a long distance race not a sprint. What need to be done is to put structures in place that will stop market manipulation. The main criticism of the IFA was that it policies are of benefit to a select few and it is not interested in structural changes that will benefit most farmers.

However my main quibble with the BPM is that it is getting dragged towards being a suckler farmer organisation.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The heifers killing sub 360kgs would be used in the British retail trade some of it would be used in the catering trade. You have School meals in the UK. However most of the bulls and even young bulls as well as the heavier steers would generally targeted at the the Continental market. At the moment the French, German and Italian markets are nearly returning UK prices.

There was a good article in The rag as well about a lad in Wexford that is finishing cattle. His figures are that we need a price of around 4.5/kg for winter finishing. however he was on that he taught we should be paid on meta yield. I not sure what some lads are thinking about it would give processors another stick to beat us with.



The BPM is 3-4 months old and some lads are expecting miracles already. This is a long distance race not a sprint. What need to be done is to put structures in place that will stop market manipulation. The main criticism of the IFA was that it policies are of benefit to a select few and it is not interested in structural changes that will benefit most farmers.

However my main quibble with the BPM is that it is getting dragged towards being a suckler farmer organisation.

So it's being traded as a commodity rather than a farmer perceived quality product?

Bass Reeves

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

So it's being traded as a commodity rather than a farmer perceived quality product?

Yes too many suckler farmers as well as the Teagasc, the Journal and the IFA give out this line about the demand for suckler beef and about meat yield the problem is that for suckler cattle to hit targets for the British retail trade that the DW weight limits makes it completely unviable to produce.

Lads having wet dreams about bulls killing 500kgs or steers killing 450DW are producing beef that is not even really a commodity product. This beef has to be shifted there is another issue in that heavy steer beef is grass fed in general so the fat and meat colour is totally wrong for the Italian market. The meat is too red and the fat too yellow.

Theyank1

I was at the BPM meeting in Letterkenny the other night and I keep hearing the same quote from people that we as farmers receive 20% of the retail price, factories 30% and retailers 50%.

Has anyone actually done the sums. If this were the case then beef would be selling at €30/kg in shops. Beef sells at €9/kg in shops on average.

A 420kg carcass @ €3.80/kg is €1,600 to the farmer, once boned is 280kg of meat for sale. 280kg at €9 is €2,500 what it sells for in the shop.
That's 63% of retail price goes to farmers and 37% shared between processors and retailers, not the 20% quoted by the BPM.
Now the processors get the 5th quarter which is worth €150. Even though we get a larger percentage of the retail price we are still not making money, it should be who gets what percentage of profit, farmers 0%, processors 50% and retailers 50%.

older by the day

Theyank1 wrote: »

I was at the BPM meeting in Letterkenny the other night and I keep hearing the same quote from people that we as farmers receive 20% of the retail price, factories 30% and retailers 50%.

Has anyone actually done the sums. If this were the case then beef would be selling at €30/kg in shops. Beef sells at €9/kg in shops on average.

A 420kg carcass @ €3.80/kg is €1,600 to the farmer, once boned is 280kg of meat for sale. 280kg at €9 is €2,500 what it sells for in the shop.
That's 63% of retail price goes to farmers and 37% shared between processors and retailers, not the 20% quoted by the BPM.
Now the processors get the 5th quarter which is worth €150. Even though we get a larger percentage of the retail price we are still not making money, it should be who gets what percentage of profit, farmers 0%, processors 50% and retailers 50%.

I suppose you are on to something, overall food price has never risen with inflation, I used to grow potatoes and veg for the house, its cheaper to buy them now. Same with beef, it should be double the price in the shop, but people won't pay that

farawaygrass

I’m on the verge of leaving their WhatsApp group. Very annoying at this stage

TITANIUM.

Theyank1 wrote: »

I was at the BPM meeting in Letterkenny the other night and I keep hearing the same quote from people that we as farmers receive 20% of the retail price, factories 30% and retailers 50%.

Has anyone actually done the sums. If this were the case then beef would be selling at €30/kg in shops. Beef sells at €9/kg in shops on average.

A 420kg carcass @ €3.80/kg is €1,600 to the farmer, once boned is 280kg of meat for sale. 280kg at €9 is €2,500 what it sells for in the shop.
That's 63% of retail price goes to farmers and 37% shared between processors and retailers, not the 20% quoted by the BPM.
Now the processors get the 5th quarter which is worth €150. Even though we get a larger percentage of the retail price we are still not making money, it should be who gets what percentage of profit, farmers 0%, processors 50% and retailers 50%.

if you stop and think, you've answered your own question.

their talking about the %profit obviously. And that 20 %Profit you mention is often divided between a number of farmers I.E. the suckler man, the store man and the finished. And probably never or very rarely in equal proportion.

patsy_mccabe

farawaygrass wrote: »

I’m on the verge of leaving their WhatsApp group. Very annoying at this stage

Mute Notifications by going into Group Info. It will drive you nuts otherwise.

Track9

In my Local Supermarket , it seems beef sell for 12 - 18 euro per kg. I have never seen beef for 9 euro per kg .

Theyank1

Track9 wrote: »

In my Local Supermarket , it seems beef sell for 12 - 18 euro per kg. I have never seen beef for 9 euro per kg .

Correct, steaks and roasts sell for that, but they only make up a small portion of the carcass, the majority of the carcass about 2/3 is mince which sells for €4-€5/kg. The animal isn't made entirely of expensive steak cuts.

Bass Reeves

Theyank1 wrote: »

Correct, steaks and roasts sell for that, but they only make up a small portion of the carcass, the majority of the carcass about 2/3 is mince which sells for €4-€5/kg. The animal isn't made entirely of expensive steak cuts.

I have not see mince in general as cheap as that It is usually about 7-10/kg to get it any cheaper you have to buy 2-3 packs togeather in an offer. I doubt if 2/3 of the beef sold is mince. There is a certain amount sold value added, meatballs burgers etc but this again would be in the 7-19/kg. You forget as well that a large amount is sold as premium brand AA and Hereford which is 20-30% more expensive. As there is meat recovered that is not paid for. Ox tail now retails at 5-8 euro/kg which is not weighted on the carcasse. The processors try to steak as much meat as possible so I vey much doubt if 66% is sold as mince

The meat yield rate on carcasse's varies from about 68-76% but in genera is about 72%. A 330kg carcasse gives 237kgs of meat. At a base of 3.75/kg adding in QA it is costing 3.87/kg taht is if R grade if O grade it is less but meat yield would be less. That 330kg carcasse costs them 1277 - vat of 5.25% is 1213. Take away the fifth quarter at 150 euro leaves it at 1063. The 237kgs of meat is costing about 4.5/kg. The fifth quarter may be worth more than the 150 euro which would reduce the meat value further.

A lot of it is only simple maths like vat and the third quarter value.Third quarter value is hard to ascertain as but 150 would be minimum IMO. Meat recovery rates are fairly well known in the industry. Average carcasses weights are below 350 for steers and I presume that heifer weights are down around the 300kgs. While there is costs involved in boning smaller carcasses fifth quarter would make up a high percentage of the value. As in in poorer grading animals the fifth quarter would be a bigger percentage of the overall value take out no QA and this beef is very cheap to sell. As for percentage going to mince look at a supermarket shelves and you will see that mince takes up way less than 50% of the retail space allotted to beef and even less in butchers. Processors steak as much beef as possible. While poorer quality carcasses may not have striploins of the right shape if the carcasses is heavy enough(hitting the 360kgs DW barrier the fillet steak, ribeye, sirloin as well as other steak cuts are coming in very cheap. A P+ animal in that range would be costing below 3/kg boned out.

patsy_mccabe

Where is your source for that Bass Reeves? They are handy figures to have.

Bass Reeves

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Where is your source for that Bass Reeves? They are handy figures to have.

A lot of it is simple maths. Boning out rates are fairly well know within the industry. Vat rebate rate is common knowledge. Third quarter value is hard to ascertain but 150 would be minimum average and could well be up above 200 euro. While processors and retailers have costs they are only a fraction of farmers costs. Carcasses weight averages are published every now and again. The last time I saw it steers averaged around 345/kg and heifers about 300kgs. 330kgs would be a fair carcass average but the average could be lower.

If you look at supermarket space allotted to beef in any supermarket mince only takes up 20-30% of the space give even that it turns over faster than roasts and steakes it is hard to see total turnover being higher than 50%. Butchers even allot less space to mince.

If you look at lighter and poorer grading carcasses some of the meat is coming in very cheap. Take a P+ bullock killing 360DW. The fifth quarter would be above average value maybe above 200 euro. His factory price is 3.45/kg at present giving him a price of 1242 euro. Take away vat and the processor pays 1182 for him. As he has a big body weight his fifth quarter could be in excess of 200 euro. That means his total carcass cost is 982 euro. Even at a recovery rate of 65% gives 234 kgs of beef costing about 4.17/kg. While the striploins might be the wrong size the fillet with a carcass that size should be ok, as should the ribseyes , sirloin and rest of the steak cuts.

yosemitesam1

Bass Reeves wrote: »

A lot of it is simple maths. Boning out rates are fairly well know within the industry. Vat rebate rate is common knowledge. Third quarter value is hard to ascertain but 150 would be minimum average and could well be up above 200 euro. While processors and retailers have costs they are only a fraction of farmers costs. Carcasses weight averages are published every now and again. The last time I saw it steers averaged around 345/kg and heifers about 300kgs. 330kgs would be a fair carcass average but the average could be lower.

If you look at supermarket space allotted to beef in any supermarket mince only takes up 20-30% of the space give even that it turns over faster than roasts and steakes it is hard to see total turnover being higher than 50%. Butchers even allot less space to mince.

If you look at lighter and poorer grading carcasses some of the meat is coming in very cheap. Take a P+ bullock killing 360DW. The fifth quarter would be above average value maybe above 200 euro. His factory price is 3.45/kg at present giving him a price of 1242 euro. Take away vat and the processor pays 1182 for him. As he has a big body weight his fifth quarter could be in excess of 200 euro. That means his total carcass cost is 982 euro. Even at a recovery rate of 65% gives 234 kgs of beef costing about 4.17/kg. While the striploins might be the wrong size the fillet with a carcass that size should be ok, as should the ribseyes , sirloin and rest of the steak cuts.

What interest would you be allowing on the factories investment? Surely there's serious money tied up in all the beef factories+all extra add ons that should be generating at least 10% a year.
By the time labour and the supermarkets/wholesalers take their cut, it wouldn't be long getting tight I'd say. It's always very easy to make money of fag box calculations when you don't know the workings in detail.

Bass Reeves

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

What interest would you be allowing on the factories investment? Surely there's serious money tied up in all the beef factories+all extra add ons that should be generating at least 10% a year.
By the time labour and the supermarkets/wholesalers take their cut, it wouldn't be long getting tight I'd say. It's always very easy to make money of fag box calculations when you don't know the workings in detail.

I suppose that farmers have made no investments. Most processing units are donkey years old. most are well depreciated at this stage through tax write off. Yes factory's are entitled to a return on investment. I was just giving a back of the fag box calculation as you put it of what deboned beef is being paid to the farmer. what are boning and packaging costs another 20%'?.

if beef retails at 9/kg on average farmers seem to receive less than 50% of the final price. tge average may be higher due to premium brand like AA and He brands. Fillet steak retails at between 30-40 euro/kg. I know there is only a few kgs in an animal but steak in general averages 20ish maybe a tad above. Everybody is foing well out of tge system except the primary producer

bogman_bass

Bass Reeves wrote: »

If you look at supermarket space allotted to beef in any supermarket mince only takes up 20-30% of the space give even that it turns over faster than roasts and steakes it is hard to see total turnover being higher than 50%. Butchers even allot less space to mince.

But the vast majority of the forequarter never sees the butchers counter. It’s gone into manufacturing.
People eat a lot of mince they just don’t buy it as mince.

It’s burgers or lasagne or a hundred other products.

Willfarman

Great work there bass. That took a lot of effort that excelled most of the poor attempts at broaching the subject by the farming press.

Albert Johnson

A big +1 on Willfarmer's comments above. It's always interesting to interpret the figures involved in the various parts of the production system. Much of the journalism metered out by the farming media leaves much to be desired when it comes to the actual facts and figures involved.

I think it's of vital importance that we as primary producers educate ourselves as to the workings of the entire production chain. This knowledge would help to create greater trust and allow all parties to develop reasonable expectations of what is expected of each other. At the moment everything beyond the factory gate is kept top secret and a lot of lads seem to believe the setting of the beef price is a weekly mix of guess work and black magic. It's only by understanding how the other side lives that we can hope to achieve success.

My biggest fear for the beef movement and any subsequent organization is that they try to divide rather than unite. From my limited exposure to the group in question it seems to increasingly become a "them versus us" issue. As I've said before shouting into microphones and comparing the factories efforts to taking up where Cromwell left off will not put more money into farmers pockets.

A more civilised and forward thinking approach is needed in my opinion, reversing the decline is a mammoth task but is not outside the bounds of possibility. My views are my own but I do believe that the wrong people are drawn to the upper levels of these groups, we badly need a Cormac Healy type figure to represent the silent majority.

charolais0153

Albert Johnson wrote: »

A big +1 on Willfarmer's comments above. It's always interesting to interpret the figures involved in the various parts of the production system. Much of the journalism metered out by the farming media leaves much to be desired when it comes to the actual facts and figures involved.

I think it's of vital importance that we as primary producers educate ourselves as to the workings of the entire production chain. This knowledge would help to create greater trust and allow all parties to develop reasonable expectations of what is expected of each other. At the moment everything beyond the factory gate is kept top secret and a lot of lads seem to believe the setting of the beef price is a weekly mix of guess work and black magic. It's only by understanding how the other side lives that we can hope to achieve success.

My biggest fear for the beef movement and any subsequent organization is that they try to divide rather than unite. From my limited exposure to the group in question it seems to increasingly become a "them versus us" issue. As I've said before shouting into microphones and comparing the factories efforts to taking up where Cromwell left off will not put more money into farmers pockets.

A more civilised and forward thinking approach is needed in my opinion, reversing the decline is a mammoth task but is not outside the bounds of possibility. My views are my own but I do believe that the wrong people are drawn to the upper levels of these groups, we badly need a Cormac Healy type figure to represent the silent majority.

One can only imagine the money he is on and the last time a member of a farming organisation was on big money there was uproar;)

Albert Johnson

charolais0153 wrote: »

One can only imagine the money he is on and the last time a member of a farming organisation was on big money there was uproar;)

I agree that finding a means to pay such a figure would prove problematic, it would no doubt be everyone else's responsibility as is one of our biggest failings as a sector. However if the proposed Messiah delivered some worthwhile results they could be seen as value for money.

My biggest gripe with the last member of a farming organisation and there handsome pay package was there underhanded attempts to conceal said wage while delivering sweet f@ck all to the majority!. Begrudging anyone something they have earned is counterproductive but being outraged at someone taking excessive payment for a poor service is fair game.

I'm not looking to start a representation bashing thread, there's lots of lads at that every day and nothing changes. Much of what I comment must look like a wish for some sort of George Orwell type Utopia where the silent majority overcome the tyrannical overloads. Maybe I am that deluded but surely there's bound to be a happy medium where farmers can continue to fulfill the role they have played for millenia without losing there proverbial shirt in the process?

Bass Reeves

charolais0153 wrote: »

One can only imagine the money he is on and the last time a member of a farming organisation was on big money there was uproar;)

But he was not on big money to represent farmers. He was on big money for fixing IFA financial issues. He developed a few project that solved financial problems that IFA had. He was no Messiah. However he had all of the upper echlons in thrall and then whipped out a large amount out of the pension fund to take his own pension outside of the fund. Because of the timing of this he seems to have put the whole fund under stress. He then continued to extract massive wage rises by keeping the upper echlons in thrall. I wonder is he on the same money now. He was really only a bang average administrator.

When you look at the way he left the structures of the IFA as an organization they are well rid of him. When you are organization that is funded by membership in a way paid offices should be invisible. In good organizations like the GAA and the IRFU paid full time officials are invisible.

CloughCasey1

Bass Reeves wrote: »

But he was not on big money to represent farmers. He was on big money for fixing IFA financial issues. He developed a few project that solved financial problems that IFA had. He was no Messiah. However he had all of the upper echlons in thrall and then whipped out a large amount out of the pension fund to take his own pension outside of the fund. Because of the timing of this he seems to have put the whole fund under stress. He then continued to extract massive wage rises by keeping the upper echlons in thrall. I wonder is he on the same money now. He was really only a bang average administrator.

When you look at the way he left the structures of the IFA as an organization they are well rid of him. When you are organization that is funded by membership in a way paid offices should be invisible. In good organizations like the GAA and the IRFU paid full time officials are invisible.

You forgot John Delaney and the FAI. ; )
Empty barrells make the most noise.

Bass Reeves

Willfarman wrote: »

Great work there bass. That took a lot of effort that excelled most of the poor attempts at broaching the subject by the farming press.

TBH a lot of it is only simple maths. Admittedly I have an interest in the subject. I am lucky in that I have a fairly good memory so can recall facts and figures. Most of the rest is only looking around and being able to sort wheat from chaff.

BB posted a bit about manufacturing beef. First thing is most of this is catered by the cow beef sector. There is premium and 2nd grade manufacturing beef. Most lower priced cow beef would fill the 2nd grade. The big question is it possible to extract higher prices for other parts of the trade. Most U30 month beef forequarter goes into the premium mince trade whether as burgers for McDonald's and Superman's or mince for Tesco's. Maybe we should protest outside McDonald's rather than Tesco's. But then they have no trollys to chain together.

Another about the burger trade Larry is no longer involved after he had to sell the processing units involved in producing burgers was it for Burger King because of a bit of horsemeat in them. He has found other outlets for this forequarter beef

wrangler

Albert Johnson wrote: »

I agree that finding a means to pay such a figure would prove problematic, it would no doubt be everyone else's responsibility as is one of our biggest failings as a sector. However if the proposed Messiah delivered some worthwhile results they could be seen as value for money.

My biggest gripe with the last member of a farming organisation and there handsome pay package was there underhanded attempts to conceal said wage while delivering sweet f@ck all to the majority!. Begrudging anyone something they have earned is counterproductive but being outraged at someone taking excessive payment for a poor service is fair game.

I'm not looking to start a representation bashing thread, there's lots of lads at that every day and nothing changes. Much of what I comment must look like a wish for some sort of George Orwell type Utopia where the silent majority overcome the tyrannical overloads. Maybe I am that deluded but surely there's bound to be a happy medium where farmers can continue to fulfill the role they have played for millenia without losing there proverbial shirt in the process?

If we have such poor representation, why can I get my land lease money tax free, why can I draw a contributory old age pension with minimal payments , why are we being paid 1.6bn through various schemes when there's a lot more deserving cases out there, why were good farmers able to hold on to most of there entitlements when the odds were stacked against them for the last 2 or 3 CAP REFORMS, Why was the whole motorway CPO process turned on it's head in 2005 to give farmers a fairer deal in the 2005 - 2010 developement plan
Farm transfers with only nominal tax......you're like the family that spent the night in the police station , they said that the government had nothing for them and then it was discovered that she was getting €70000 social welfare..
It might surprise you to know that there are a lot of people out there that need public funds more than farmers

Like in other organisations the irish are too willing to stand back and let a few do the work and then plough in with criticism.
My mistake was to trust our treasurer, a farmer

Bass Reeves

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

You forgot John Delaney and the FAI. ; )
Empty barrells make the most noise.

No I didn't JD is a full time paid administrator that I was talking about. Too visible in a member subscribed organization

Albert Johnson

In reply to wranglers post above I guessed that a mention of the IFA (though not by myself) would be enough to bring you into the debate.

I would agree that certain things that were lobbied for by the IFA such as nominal tax on farm transfers and ensuring the continuation of EU funding are integral to Irish agriculture. Other measures such as tax free leasing and in relation to the old age pension are of no concern to me at the minute but are at least options for others.

I also never said that we had poor or otherwise representation only aired my views on where it could possibly be improved. Please don't liken me to the social welfare brigade it's unnecessary and uncalled for in this instance. I understand your history with a certain organisation but at this stage it's sounding like school children arguing over which power ranger is best.

It wouldn't at all surprise me that there are groups out there that are in much more dire straights than us farmers. The homeless for example and perhaps even the nurses and other front line workers.

I agree 100% that it's very hard to gain much support in this country regardless of your pedigree. It's one of my main fears for the newest representation group. They could learn a lot from the IFA and other more established organisations.

I try to see the good in everything, the IFA included and despite the fact that I would never have any correspondence with them if at all possible I try to practice the approach of live and let live. For example the Nazi's gave the world Fanta orange so nothing can be all bad I suppose. I aim to keep the same opinion of many organisations both farming and non farming in this world.

wrangler

Albert Johnson wrote: »

In reply to wranglers post above I guessed that a mention of the IFA (though not by myself) would be enough to bring you into the debate.

I would agree that certain things that were lobbied for by the IFA such as nominal tax on farm transfers and ensuring the continuation of EU funding are integral to Irish agriculture. Other measures such as tax free leasing and in relation to the old age pension are of no concern to me at the minute but are at least options for others.

I also never said that we had poor or otherwise representation only aired my views on where it could possibly be improved. Please don't liken me to the social welfare brigade it's unnecessary and uncalled for in this instance. I understand your history with a certain organisation but at this stage it's sounding like school children arguing over which power ranger is best.

It wouldn't at all surprise me that there are groups out there that are in much more dire straights than us farmers. The homeless for example and perhaps even the nurses and other front line workers.

I agree 100% that it's very hard to gain much support in this country regardless of your pedigree. It's one of my main fears for the newest representation group. They could learn a lot from the IFA and other more established organisations.

I try to see the good in everything, the IFA included and despite the fact that I would never have any correspondence with them if at all possible I try to practice the approach of live and let live. For example the Nazi's gave the world Fanta orange so nothing can be all bad I suppose. I aim to keep the same opinion of many organisations both farming and non farming in this world.

For anyone to deliver anything out of the budget for a group that has diminishing political clout is an achievement, Political parties will earn more votes easier in any other sector.
Maybe you're not benefitting from pension or tax concessions but
if you're farming properly you're probably benefiting from being left with most of your entitlements which, in my case any way, is worth more than a mickey mouse price rise.
Very hard to know where there's an opportunity to deliver for farmers, maybe the BPM will turn them into hard sellers, Purchasing groups isn't exactly groundbreaking, Buywayz went to the wall even though it had similar management to IFA TELECOM which brings in a nice bit of revenue to Farm Centre

Bass Reeves

IMO producer groups at finishing level are about our only chance. With the change in EU thinking on them it would allow them to bypass the current thinking of the Competition Authority. Within 2-3 years it would force forward pricing which would allow winter finishers especially to make economic decisions before filling sheds or starting intensive feeding periods. Producer groups would also highlight anti competitive way at the moment that processors use there own and contracted feedlots.

But there is serious resistance by IFA in particular to the EU rules being legislated for. Until a farm organisation takes up he mantle to push for these we will see little or no change. This idea that individual farmers can be hard sellers with 20, 50, 100 or more cattle a year is delusional. The concept of holding back cattle is delusional as well. Negotiating with processors is not like negotiating with employers where if a deal is struck it sticks.

The ink would be barely dry on it and individual factory procurement manager would be finding ways to undermine it. They would target smaller producers first with smaller numbers as they would be less likely to get support if they complain. They would target certain spec's of cattle and whisper about market forces. Could finishers start a closedown again. Also withdrawal of supplies puts all the hardship and cost of it on finishers. To recover some of that cost they would have to reduce what they pay in mart for cattle. Store and suckler men would see a higher margin in finishing there own cattle so this could not happen

Albert Johnson

wrangler wrote: »

For anyone to deliver anything out of the budget for a group that has diminishing political clout is an achievement, Political parties will earn more votes easier in any other sector.
Maybe you're not benefitting from pension or tax concessions but
if you're farming properly you're probably benefiting from being left with most of your entitlements which, in my case any way, is worth more than a mickey mouse price rise.
Very hard to know where there's an opportunity to deliver for farmers, maybe the BPM will turn them into hard sellers, Purchasing groups isn't exactly groundbreaking, Buywayz went to the wall even though it had similar management to IFA TELECOM which brings in a nice bit of revenue to Farm Centre

Farming is becoming the poor relation as regards politics, an increasing urban/rural divide means the majority have little understanding or interest in our state of affairs. One only has to observe Leo Varadkars latest plan to solve our carbon emissions by eating less meat to see how out of touch many are with the sector. As this trend progresses it will only become more difficult for our lobby groups to achieve anything of note.

I may not be currently benefiting from the pension or tax concessions but even I'm not sufficiently self centered to disagree that they are of benefit to many. It's good to have a range of options and the IFA to there credit have delivered repeatedly in these areas.

A Mickey mouse price rise won't save anyone but it could be a possible first step. Entitlement values may be currently financing many operations but CAP 2020 is only around the corner, a redistribution or otherwise could shake a lot of lads set ups. In my own personal case for the bit of farming that I carry out any gains achieved by any group would have a marginal effect regardless.

I once again agree that some proposed measures such as purchasing groups aren't exactly up there with reinventing the wheel. However for a myriad of reasons they have had only limited success in the past, I wouldn't know where to start with changing the above but it's worth investigating.

Another possibility that I'm very interested in is producer groups or some other form of unification. I listen in awe at times at what can be achieved with similar sheep groups and think of what we as beef men as missing out on. Nothing is ever that simple and it takes sometimes trojan effort by many but I believe such effort would be rewarded.

The BPM has along way to go yet but perhaps it may serve the changing needs of the beef sector as a whole. The status quo that has existed in recent decades of being simply price takers is coming under increased pressure as this price is loss making. Nothing is going to be done for us unless we do it ourselves, here lies the number one hurdle the BPM or similar will face, that being gaining sufficient helpful support.

wrangler

Bass Reeves wrote: »

IMO producer groups at finishing level are about our only chance. With the change in EU thinking on them it would allow them to bypass the current thinking of the Competition Authority. Within 2-3 years it would force forward pricing which would allow winter finishers especially to make economic decisions before filling sheds or starting intensive feeding periods. Producer groups would also highlight anti competitive way at the moment that processors use there own and contracted feedlots.

But there is serious resistance by IFA in particular to the EU rules being legislated for. Until a farm organisation takes up he mantle to push for these we will see little or no change. This idea that individual farmers can be hard sellers with 20, 50, 100 or more cattle a year is delusional. The concept of holding back cattle is delusional as well. Negotiating with processors is not like negotiating with employers where if a deal is struck it sticks.

The ink would be barely dry on it and individual factory procurement manager would be finding ways to undermine it. They would target smaller producers first with smaller numbers as they would be less likely to get support if they complain. They would target certain spec's of cattle and whisper about market forces. Could finishers start a closedown again. Also withdrawal of supplies puts all the hardship and cost of it on finishers. To recover some of that cost they would have to reduce what they pay in mart for cattle. Store and suckler men would see a higher margin in finishing there own cattle so this could not happen

I can only regard legislation to force an industry to negotiate as a blatant liberty. everyone should be allowed conduct their business without interference, I might think different if those that run this country didn't make such a hash of everything and as you know I don't mean the politicians.
Is the beef forums record not an example of why not to let them interfere

patsy_mccabe

Tipp meeting tonight. (Maybe the MODs could embed this).

wrangler

This will test their ''support'', this is the only way that they'll be sure of their figures.
I've said it here often enough, that they should try selling the stuff.
I invested in a farmer owned factory years ago, I won't be doing it again

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/beef/beef-plan-movement-looking-to-raise-2m-to-produce-and-market-own-beef-37716096.html

farawaygrass

What was the downfall of that farmer owned factory? Was there a manager hired in to run it or the committee that set it up?

alps

Farmers reps or farmers coops cannot run meat factories. It is not in their nature to be brutal and callous enough in their dealings with staff and suppliers. History in this area is dismal....

€5000 euro shares, derelict factories....this trip is taking a strange turn

farawaygrass

alps wrote: »

Farmers reps or farmers coops cannot run meat factories. It is not in their nature to be brutal and callous enough in their dealings with staff and suppliers. History in this area is dismal....

€5000 euro shares, derelict factories....this trip is taking a strange turn

Why can they run milk processing plants? What’s the difference?