Beef Plan Movement (READ OP BEFORE POSTING)

jaymla627

wrangler wrote: »

I got no 15000/yr when I started farming, whinge on about IFA then, everyone else does when they know I have a point. Hopefully who ever get;s the dosh in the new CAP reform will have to pull their finger out and work for it like we did.
Mine is a pension now alright, how long will the pension last, probably two years,
Let's face facts, my subs are down from 40k to 25 because some farmers didn't maximise their payments, that's not right either, the Irish budget should be two billion not one point three billion.
That mythical farmer you described lives near here and he has three kids in College......you'll do a great job on him won't you, I can assure you e isn't blowing the subs in ''coppers'' or on toyotas either. but sure why would you care

Farming 220 rented acres here no owned land with 40k euro of sfp going back to landowners and another 40k in rent, I receive no sfp our entitlements of any kind, would you have any sympathy for myself our am I just a bit thick that I decided to choose farming as a career and wasn’t lucky enough to be farming during the reference years

Willfarman

jaymla627 wrote: »

Farming 220 rented acres here no owned land with 40k euro of sfp going back to landowners and another 40k in rent, I receive no sfp our entitlements of any kind, would you have any sympathy for myself our am I just a bit thick that I decided to choose farming as a career and wasn’t lucky enough to farming during the reference years

Fair play if you are making anything at that.

jaymla627

Willfarman wrote: »

Fair play if you are making anything at that.

Dairying so have great cash-flow to be fair and have built up a nice herd of cows and followers but if I had 20k a year as a wage it would be the height of it, and when your average working week is 85 hours a week you’d want to like your cows and not be in it to get rich

wrangler

jaymla627 wrote: »

Farming 220 rented acres here no owned land with 40k euro of sfp going back to landowners and another 40k in rent, I receive no sfp our entitlements of any kind, would you have any sympathy for myself our am I just a bit thick that I decided to choose farming as a career and wasn’t lucky enough to be farming during the reference years

If you're claiming the subs in your name, I'd hope that it'd be sorted this time, I'm fully expecting to lose my entitlements,
If the landlord is claiming them in his name I'd have no sympathy for ya

farisfat

The sfp should be abolished and that money put towards the homeless and under privileged.
I think Irish agriculture would be the winner in the long run.

Nekarsulm

Jamyla, if subs are cut or disapear, do you still have to pay the 80k, or is the agreement for 40k plus SFP?
Are you near a rent review?
If you have a long term lease (10 years+) are there rent review built in, or any break clauses?
Regards, Nec.

Siamsa Sessions

jaymla627 wrote: »

Farming 220 rented acres here no owned land with 40k euro of sfp going back to landowners and another 40k in rent, I receive no sfp our entitlements of any kind, would you have any sympathy for myself our am I just a bit thick that I decided to choose farming as a career and wasn’t lucky enough to be farming during the reference years

I'm surprised the whole SFP can go directly to the landlord. Are the Dept ever sniffing around at a lad who has the land leased but still draws the entitlements?

bogman_bass

wrangler wrote: »

Like everything it's being abused. I might be generalising but it's happening, people are generalising about retired farmers even though those in the retirement scheme had their entitlements taken off them in the last CAP REFORM.
You should study the farms around you in the scheme

I know of nobody scamming the system with it but I know plenty that got farming 10 years earlier than they would have without it.

To be honest, the way it’s set up it’s pretty easy to catch the chancers

Nekarsulm

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

I'm surprised the whole SFP can go directly to the landlord. Are the Dept ever sniffing around at a lad who has the land leased but still draws the entitlements?

If it's written into your lease, the entire value of them can go to the landlord, but the entitlements will have to be properly leased to the tenant for the term of the lease.
Otherwise the first inspection will have both parties in serious bother.

Willfarman

I rent a bit of ground beside me and he draws the sfp on it. I’ve been inspected before as has he and it seems it’s all above board. He’s getting best of both worlds but to quote a comedy sketch I seen recently “thats because he’s good at his job and I’m ****e at mine”

Siamsa Sessions

Slightly off-topic but can I ask if anyone knows if a landowner can lease the farm to a partnership and still get tax free income if their son/daughter is part of the partnership?

I know parents can’t lease to sons/daughters directly and get tax free rent, but can they do indirectly via a partnership?

Thanks.

wrangler

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Slightly off-topic but can I ask if anyone knows if a landowner can lease the farm to a partnership and still get tax free income if their son/daughter is part of the partnership?

I know parents can’t lease to sons/daughters directly and get tax free rent, but can they do indirectly via a partnership?

Thanks.

No, you won't get the rent tax free

Siamsa Sessions

Ok, thanks for that.

Few options on the table at home now so trying to figure out what’s best.

Cattlepen

K9 wrote: »

What would be the cut off point from grass fed beef to grain fed with regards the amount of meal fed to an animal?

There should be no meal fed in a grass fed beast. How in the name of jaysus can it be grass fed if you feed it meal? I’m not having ago at you but why would you ask how much meal you can feed a GRASS FED animal?
GRASS GRASS GRASS. There should be no halfway house with it

Bass Reeves

Cattlepen wrote: »

There should be no meal fed in a grass fed beast. How in the name of jaysus can it be grass fed if you feed it meal? I’m not having ago at you but why would you ask how much meal you can feed a GRASS FED animal?
GRASS GRASS GRASS. There should be no halfway house with it

The Us one is very restrictive but even there you can feed minimum amounts. Unless some can be fed you would struggle with the seasonality of the system. As well if nothing but grass only AA and maybe HE steers and heifers would get enough fat cover. IF I buy weanlings I only feed about 1-1.5kg/day over the winter and stop about 6-8 weeks pre turnout. My stores that I finish off grass only get artion for last 6-8 weeks of 3kgs/day for early and mid summer finish. If they go out into the autumn they need 5kgs/head to finish for 8ish weeks. With winter finishing and good silage you would need 3-5kgs/day for 100+ days. As well bucket fed calves need ration until at least 12-14 weeks of age.

It should be limited to 500kgs in last 120 days with a bonus for beef finished with less than 200kgs in last 120 days IMO. TBH there is no spec for it at present in Europe AFAIK. Winter finishing would be the issue lots of lads can do it from June to November and maybe December, But finishing cattle off grass silage over the winter would be an art in itself not impossible but would require certain technical know how. You would have to pick your cattle as well heifers and AA's would be the most suitable.

K9

Cattlepen wrote: »

There should be no meal fed in a grass fed beast. How in the name of jaysus can it be grass fed if you feed it meal? I’m not having ago at you but why would you ask how much meal you can feed a GRASS FED animal?
GRASS GRASS GRASS. There should be no halfway house with it

I was asking to enquire about the practicality of it. As bass stated going 100% wouldn’t be feasible. Between wet weather from August 2017 up to April and then the drought this summer, how would you guarantee a steady supply?
But then how do you market it as grass beef whilst feeding meal. 100% grass fed 50% of the time?
Who’s going to know how much meal was fed?
Even taking Angus heifers from dairy herd would they make the required grade and with a lighter carcase would they leave any more profit?
I’m not against the BPM but imo they seem to be coming out with half thought out ideas to try and garner support.

alps

Cattlepen wrote: »

There should be no meal fed in a grass fed beast. How in the name of jaysus can it be grass fed if you feed it meal? I’m not having ago at you but why would you ask how much meal you can feed a GRASS FED animal?
GRASS GRASS GRASS. There should be no halfway house with it

It depends on the market you are selling into. With milk in the US, as long as 95% of the diet is GMO free, the product can be considered GMO free. In the Netherlands a pretty high percentage ( think 10%) of the diet can come from conventional non organic sources and the milk can still be marketed as organic.

Now if the only knew that we market our milk as being 95% grass fed ( on a fresh weight basis🤣) then I reckon they could get away with feeding organic fodder and conventional ration, and still market the product as Organic..

Cattlepen

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The Us one is very restrictive but even there you can feed minimum amounts. Unless some can be fed you would struggle with the seasonality of the system. As well if nothing but grass only AA and maybe HE steers and heifers would get enough fat cover. IF I buy weanlings I only feed about 1-1.5kg/day over the winter and stop about 6-8 weeks pre turnout. My stores that I finish off grass only get artion for last 6-8 weeks of 3kgs/day for early and mid summer finish. If they go out into the autumn they need 5kgs/head to finish for 8ish weeks. With winter finishing and good silage you would need 3-5kgs/day for 100+ days. As well bucket fed calves need ration until at least 12-14 weeks of age.

It should be limited to 500kgs in last 120 days with a bonus for beef finished with less than 200kgs in last 120 days IMO. TBH there is no spec for it at present in Europe AFAIK. Winter finishing would be the issue lots of lads can do it from June to November and maybe December, But finishing cattle off grass silage over the winter would be an art in itself not impossible but would require certain technical know how. You would have to pick your cattle as well heifers and AA's would be the most suitable.

I agree with everything you’ve said and I am not having a go at k9. The point I am trying to make is that this guy that is promising €5/kg for the grass fed beef is in fairyland. It is a niche product and we would not all be able to produce it. If you dilute it down to feeding a bit of meal then it’s just a scam that won’t stand up to scrutiny. At the very least you would be open to ridicule and at worst a legal case for misleading marketing.
Wasn’t Kerrygold banned from some US states for this reason?
And I agree with k9 when he says the BPM have only half thought out ideas. They are dreaming if the think the monopoly will let them successfully market their own beef on a large scale. They will break them. And who has €10k to throw around on a madcap scheme like it?

Bass Reeves

Cattlepen wrote: »

I agree with everything you’ve said and I am not having a go at k9. The point I am trying to make is that this guy that is promising €5/kg for the grass fed beef is in fairyland. It is a niche product and we would not all be able to produce it. If you dilute it down to feeding a bit of meal then it’s just a scam that won’t stand up to scrutiny. At the very least you would be open to ridicule and at worst a legal case for misleading marketing.
Wasn’t Kerrygold banned from some US states for this reason?
And I agree with k9 when he says the BPM have only half thought out ideas. They are dreaming if the think the monopoly will let them successfully market their own beef on a large scale. They will break them. And who has €10k to throw around on a madcap scheme like it?

I agree that not every farmer can produce grass fed beef. You would need good dry land and as I said the technical ability to use early and late grazing. However is such a market could take 20-30% of the stock at a premium price it helps all the rest of the farmers. But we need a genuine product not a makey up as you go. Just to give you an example a steer killing 350kgs at 30 months eating 500kgs of ration in its lifetime will still consume about 5.5-6 ton of grass dry matter. That would be a 90% grass intake over lifetime. a steer of mine bough as a weanling killed mid summer would only consume 250-280kgs of ration in his time on the farm. So it is easy to hit the numbers in the irish system.

Siamsa Sessions

Seeing messages on WhatsApp re BPM looking for “a brand name to best describe our Irish grass fed suckled beef”

Does this confirm the suspected focus on sucklers only?

wrangler

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Seeing messages on WhatsApp re BPM looking for “a brand name to best describe our Irish grass fed suckled beef”

Does this confirm the suspected focus on sucklers only?

They're like politicians now, they're agreeing with everyone and doing nothing.
The ego trip continues.

coolshannagh28

wrangler wrote: »

They're like politicians now, they're agreeing with everyone and doing nothing.
The ego trip continues.

Sounds like you have "previous" with some of these.

patsy_mccabe

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Seeing messages on WhatsApp re BPM looking for “a brand name to best describe our Irish grass fed suckled beef”

Does this confirm the suspected focus on sucklers only?

I've been wrecking my head to think of a name. It's the kind of thing you'd want to get right. Also, do you put a pic of cattle on the label? Prob better no to. Modern consumers prefer not to see them. A nice pic of stone walls in the West would be best.

Water John

Marketing seems to have reversed on the notion of not putting animals in meat advertising. Put it out there, that's where your food comes from. Vegetarians and vegans won't be your customers any way.
To brand it you need to firstly list the key words, pastureland, grass, outdoor, grazing, Irish, green.
Add to the list.

yosemitesam1

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I agree that not every farmer can produce grass fed beef. You would need good dry land and as I said the technical ability to use early and late grazing. However is such a market could take 20-30% of the stock at a premium price it helps all the rest of the farmers. But we need a genuine product not a makey up as you go. Just to give you an example a steer killing 350kgs at 30 months eating 500kgs of ration in its lifetime will still consume about 5.5-6 ton of grass dry matter. That would be a 90% grass intake over lifetime. a steer of mine bough as a weanling killed mid summer would only consume 250-280kgs of ration in his time on the farm. So it is easy to hit the numbers in the irish system.

Hard to see a big premium for that for such a large % of cattle. Take the US, they can produce 100% grass fed year round and could very easily adapt feedlots to the 90-95% across a lifetime if there was much of a market.
A large enough percentage of cattle in Europe could be grass fed easy enough too, there's lots of options like cover crops or temporary grass over the summer that they could manage if there was a big premium.

wrangler

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Sounds like you have "previous" with some of these.

Plenty of previous, Willie Penrose was the only one I had any time for, at least he'd say it as it was, the rest'd agree with everything and plenty lapped it up.
Wouldn't like to be lobbying for anything now with the way that the health service is wasting everything.
Can't believe the way the farmers are being taken in by the politicians at the BPM meetings, of course politicians are going to say what farmers want to hear, they're not fools

coolshannagh28

wrangler wrote: »

Plenty of previous, Willie Penrose was the only one I had any time for, at least he'd say it as it was, the rest'd agree with everything and plenty lapped it up.
Wouldn't like to be lobbying for anything now with the way that the health service is wasting everything.
Can't believe the way the farmers are being taken in by the politicians at the BPM meetings, of course politicians are going to say what farmers want to hear, they're not fools

I was more interested in the BPM principals.

wrangler

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

I was more interested in the BPM principals.

Aye, They're going to be saying what farmers want to hear too. :cool:

wrangler

I wonder who does Corley think is working at protecting his substantial BPS payment in Brussels while he's trying to undermine them here.
The same crowd I suppose that protected it for him in 2012.....Eaten bread and all that....wish I had what he gets

coolshannagh28

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

I was more interested in the BPM principals.

Or should I have said principles.

wrangler

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Or should I have said principles.

I have my principles too and if you don't like them I've more at home

BPMs principals probably have the same sort of principles

Buford T. Justice XIX

Apparently, the 86 point plan is being shelved for the time being and they are now focusing on contract killing their members stock in the next 6 months.
https://twitter.com/farmersjournal/status/1092034215473016832?s=19

gerryirl

wrangler wrote: »

I have my principles too and if you don't like them I've more at home

BPMs principals probably have the same sort of principles

lol ... agree or disagree with you, your posts are always entertaining

older by the day

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Apparently, the 86 point plan is being shelved for the time being and they are now focusing on contract killing their members stock in the next 6 months.
https://twitter.com/farmersjournal/status/1092034215473016832?s=19

It will be nice to look back on these posts in one year and see if it has made a difference, people are getting Fed up of talk

Cavanjack

older by the day wrote: »

It will be nice to look back on these posts in one year and see if it has made a difference, people are getting Fed up of talk

You can't knock them for trying and they have to be admired for bothering. All any of the other organizations have done lately is talk (although there hasn't been a word from the ifa over the past 6 months as the beef price has been in free fall). The monthly forums seem to have stopped for all the good they were. Iirc the ifa and the rest protested outside the last ones.
The beef group are only going a few months. It could take years

charolais0153

Cavanjack wrote: »

You can't knock them for trying and they have to be admired for bothering. All any of the other organizations have done lately is talk (although there hasn't been a word from the ifa over the past 6 months as the beef price has been in free fall). The monthly forums seem to have stopped for all the good they were. Iirc the ifa and the rest protested outside the last ones.
The beef group are only going a few months. It could take years

Free fall? Its hardly armageddon. 3.75 is respectable given the circumstances

patsy_mccabe

charolais0153 wrote: »

Free fall? Its hardly armageddon. 3.75 is respectable given the circumstances

Jeez, if you consider 3.75 respectable. :eek:

Bass Reeves

charolais0153 wrote: »

Free fall? Its hardly armageddon. 3.75 is respectable given the circumstances

3.75 for winter finished cattle is armageddon with finishing ration costing 270+/ton. 3.4-3.5 for O grade bulls, 3.6 for R grade and 3.7 for U grade bulls. You can take that anyone feeding any bulls or cows are taking a serious hit. Lads feeding any bullocks that were bought in Mid/Late Autumn if they intend to replace with stock for summer grazing will take serious losses as well and feed costs will hit them as well.

Lads would have expected to be hitting 4/kg at a minimum now with U/R+ bulls at 4.1 at least. The better quality the bull the more you lose. Lads with U16 month bull are more than likely being flat priced as well and no QA. For example a U/R+ bull killing 450kgs DW is down 200/head. Fr bulls are going over age which will take another 10-20c/head off at least, they might even quote you stock bull price. A 350 kg Fr bull is back 175 euro. A 330 kg bullock is back over 100 euro and all of them costs are before you factor in another 50-100 euro extra in feeding costs

Robson99

Bass Reeves wrote: »

3.75 for winter finished cattle is armageddon with finishing ration costing 370+/ton. 3.4-3.5 for O grade bulls, 3.6 for R grade and 3.7 for U grade bulls. You can take that anyone feeding any bulls or cows are taking a serious hit. Lads feeding any bullocks that were bought in Mid/Late Autumn if they intend to replace with stock for summer grazing will take serious losses as well and feed costs will hit them as well.

Lads would have expected to be hitting 4/kg at a minimum now with U/R+ bulls at 4.1 at least. The better quality the bull the more you lose. Lads with U16 month bull are more than likely being flat priced as well and no QA. For example a U/R+ bull killing 450kgs DW is down 200/head. Fr bulls are going over age which will take another 10-20c/head off at least, they might even quote you stock bull price. A 350 kg Fr bull is back 175 euro. A 330 kg bullock is back over 100 euro and all of them costs are before you factor in another 50-100 euro extra in feeding costs

Weight cuts are now being implemented which really **** things up for anyone buying good connenital cattle. This really pisses me off with factories. No problem with weights when scarce but cut when plentiful. Moving goalposts All the time
Also haven't noticed the good conventional cattle back that much in the marts Bass

Bass Reeves

Robson99 wrote: »

Weight cuts are now being implemented which really **** things up for anyone buying good connenital cattle. This really pisses me off with factories. No problem with weights when scarce but cut when plentiful. Moving goalposts All the time
Also haven't noticed the good conventional cattle back that much in the marts Bass

I often wonder can some lads 2+2 or is it like going to a bookie shop and chancing the odds again. Mind from now on you are up against the grass men buying cattle last year was the first time in nearly five years they took a hit. Lots of lads buying a few cattle and letting them off to draw the ANC payment or cattle fro traditional grazing fields (LIPP). These boys skew the early spring prices a bit. Some lads as well have good ground conditions are are buying a few cattle to throw out on it

Who2

I was at one of the meetings recently and thought it was a bit amateurish. One man stating his cousin could look after the fifth quarter but then stating the 120 km travel restrictions. They would be as well concentrate on tag levies and bvd issues and try and go for a soft win. While the push for good continental cattle is great and hopefully the rising tide will lift all ships scenario does work the reality is the vast majority of us will be handling a lot more dairy bred stock a lot sooner than most of us would like to admit, ailianating dairy cross to an extent seems a bad idea imo

Sheep breeder

Robson99 wrote: »

Weight cuts are now being implemented which really **** things up for anyone buying good connenital cattle. This really pisses me off with factories. No problem with weights when scarce but cut when plentiful. Moving goalposts All the time
Also haven't noticed the good conventional cattle back that much in the marts Bass

What marts are you attending

charolais0153

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Jeez, if you consider 3.75 respectable. :eek:

20/30c below last year price with an extra 3k of a kill at 36k. Less than 10%of a drop. Armageddon

Cavanjack

charolais0153 wrote: »

20/30c below last year price with an extra 3k of a kill at 36k. Less than 10%of a drop. Armageddon

Bulls 40 to 45 cent below last year and costing 45 Euro more a head to finish with meal. That's leaving bulls killing at least 220 a head less than last year. It's not great now considering You'd be happy for them to leave a profit of 200 a head on a good year. And it could get worse before it gets better .
Have been to several local marts this year and to me prices for weaklings are as good as this time last year.

Cavanjack

Robson99 wrote: »

Weight cuts are now being implemented which really **** things up for anyone buying good connenital cattle. This really pisses me off with factories. No problem with weights when scarce but cut when plentiful. Moving goalposts All the time
Also haven't noticed the good conventional cattle back that much in the marts Bass

Yeah they more or less encouraged good bulls with the prices paid last spring. Agree also that cattle sent back much if at all in the marts

wrangler

Cavanjack wrote: »

You can't knock them for trying and they have to be admired for bothering. All any of the other organizations have done lately is talk (although there hasn't been a word from the ifa over the past 6 months as the beef price has been in free fall). The monthly forums seem to have stopped for all the good they were. Iirc the ifa and the rest protested outside the last ones.
The beef group are only going a few months. It could take years

List of beef press releases from IFA . WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN FOR THE LAST YEAR
https://www.google.ie/search?q=IFA+BEEF+PRESS+RELEASES&ei=dlRXXMCLGPu31fAPmbGf2Ak&start=10&sa=N&ved=0ahUKEwjAnq7kuKDgAhX7WxUIHZnYB5s4FBDy0wMIcQ&biw=1600&bih=789
Could it be that the IFA have done their best, this crowd will either prove or disprove that last statement, no point in trying to achieve the impossible.
Brexit and CAP Reform is a lot more important
It's bad enough when some beef farmers are exalting a group on an ego trip.
Every iIFA national exec in dublin, the beef presentation used to sicken me, such was the time devoted to it, don't tell me that IFA is a dairy organisation.
What is the solution.......stop pussy footing and whingeing and withdraw product . OTHER WISE GO HOME

Cavanjack

wrangler wrote: »

List of beef press releases from IFA . WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN FOR THE LAST YEAR
https://www.google.ie/search?q=IFA+BEEF+PRESS+RELEASES&ei=dlRXXMCLGPu31fAPmbGf2Ak&start=10&sa=N&ved=0ahUKEwjAnq7kuKDgAhX7WxUIHZnYB5s4FBDy0wMIcQ&biw=1600&bih=789
Could it be that the IFA have done their best, this crowd will either prove or disprove that last statement, no point in trying to achieve the impossible.
Brexit and CAP Reform is a lot more important
It's bad enough when some beef farmers are exalting a group on an ego trip.
Every iIFA national exec in dublin, the beef presentation used to sicken me, such was the time devoted to it, don't tell me that IFA is a dairy organisation.
What is the solution.......stop pussy footing and whingeing and withdraw product . OTHER WISE GO HOME

Most of them that appear in that search are from October 2018 and can't see anything more recent. One popping up from 2004 I think as well. I agree the ifa have been great for looking after the big payments that some farmers are getting.

wrangler

Cavanjack wrote: »

Most of them that appear in that search are from October 2018 and can't see anything more recent. One popping up from 2004 I think as well. I agree the ifa have been great for looking after the big payments that some farmers are getting.

What do you suggest, a protest that beef farmers won't bother attending, dairy farmers are probably sick of standing in for them at this stage

Robson99

Sheep breeder wrote: »

What marts are you attending

Good quality contenintal cattle 280 kg to 450kgs here in the west are no cheaper than last year

Robson99

wrangler wrote: »

List of beef press releases from IFA . WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN FOR THE LAST YEAR
https://www.google.ie/search?q=IFA+BEEF+PRESS+RELEASES&ei=dlRXXMCLGPu31fAPmbGf2Ak&start=10&sa=N&ved=0ahUKEwjAnq7kuKDgAhX7WxUIHZnYB5s4FBDy0wMIcQ&biw=1600&bih=789
Could it be that the IFA have done their best, this crowd will either prove or disprove that last statement, no point in trying to achieve the impossible.
Brexit and CAP Reform is a lot more important
It's bad enough when some beef farmers are exalting a group on an ego trip.
Every iIFA national exec in dublin, the beef presentation used to sicken me, such was the time devoted to it, don't tell me that IFA is a dairy organisation.
What is the solution.......stop pussy footing and whingeing and withdraw product . OTHER WISE GO HOME

The IFA huff and they puff but at the end of the day they wouldn't blow there bloody noses. All PR crap when it comes to suckler /beef farming