Beef Plan Movement (READ OP BEFORE POSTING)

patsy_mccabe

What industry sets it own price?

White Clover

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

What industry sets it own price?

Come on patsy, you know what I mean.
If you were selling a car. Would you put a price on it or allow the buyer pay you what they think you should get?

patsy_mccabe

If you're selling a car and if you price it above the market value, you won't sell it. The price of everything is set by the market.

White Clover

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

If you're selling a car and if you price it above the market value, you won't sell it. The price of everything is set by the market.

It's the market is it? Nothing about the margin the farmer gets compared to the processors and retailers.
You're well and truly brainwashed patsy!

patsy_mccabe

White Clover wrote: »

It's the market is it? Nothing about the margin the farmer gets compared to the processors and retailers.
You're well and truly brainwashed patsy!

Not brainwashed, just living in the real world. I've worked long enough in other industries to know how it works. We export 90% of our beef. We're the biggest exporter in the northern hemisphere. That's the core of our problem. We need an international shortage of beef for any decent price here. When beef is plentiful, we're on the bottom shelf, at a discounted price.
If you have a solution to all this, I'd love to hear it.

Hard Knocks

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Not brainwashed, just living in the real world. I've worked long enough in other industries to know how it works. We export 90% of our beef. We're the biggest exporter in the northern hemisphere. That's the core of our problem. We need an internationsl shortage of beef for any decent price here. When beef is plentifull, we're on the bottom shelf, at a discounted price.
If you have a solution to all this, I'd love to hear it.

Fully agree with your post
Just we’re always told or beef is a premium product
Good sales?

wrangler

Hard Knocks wrote: »

Fully agree with your post
Just we’re always told or beef is a premium product
Good sales?

Probably no different than beef from anywhere else in Europe, same technology, same breeds available, Maize and soya probably growing nearby,
With all of that available how is irish superior

Hard Knocks

wrangler wrote: »

Probably no different than beef from anywhere else in Europe, same technology, same breeds available, Maize and soya probably growing nearby,
With all of that available how is irish superior

In a meeting I attended a few years ago, the speaker said reports from Spain is our hybrid vigor is giving superior results to the purebreds imported from France

Coonagh

Hard Knocks wrote: »

Fully agree with your post
Just we’re always told or beef is a premium product
Good sales?

No matter where I’ve been in the world every country thinks there beef is the best in the world and a premium product. Australia, Brazil, New Zealand, Argentina...they all think their produce is superior and we are no different in that regard. Also this notion that our beef should and would command a premium price over another countries own domestic product is borderline delusional.

wrangler

Hard Knocks wrote: »

In a meeting I attended a few years ago, the speaker said reports from Spain is our hybrid vigor is giving superior results to the purebreds imported from France

I wouldn't think that hybrid vigor has anything to do with the taste or texture.
There's so much dairy breeds in our beef now, we're the same as everyone else now, no advantage

Bass Reeves

Hard Knocks wrote: »

In a meeting I attended a few years ago, the speaker said reports from Spain is our hybrid vigor is giving superior results to the purebreds imported from France

Coonagh wrote: »

No matter where I’ve been in the world every country thinks there beef is the best in the world and a premium product. Australia, Brazil, New Zealand, Argentina...they all think their produce is superior and we are no different in that regard. Also this notion that our beef should and would command a premium price over another countries own domestic product is borderline delusional.

wrangler wrote: »

I wouldn't think that hybrid vigor has anything to do with the taste or texture.
There's so much dairy breeds in our beef now, we're the same as everyone else now, no advantage

While hybrid vigor is not a reason for taste some Irish Beef is a superb product just like some Irish Lamb. What differentiates it from the norm is what many do not understand. First off all red meat( actually all meat full stop) needs age for flavor and some fat. Grass as well has huge influence on the taste of Beef.

In the next few weeks go into a good butcher to get some lamb (the reason I say a butcher rather than a supermarket is you are less likely to get tainted ram meat) But a tray of center loin chops, a tray of gigot chops and a half leg of lamb. Freeze them and wait until late May. In late may but the same in early season lamb. Now which will be the better product. The spring lamb will be tender but will lack in taste and flavour. There will be a bit more bite in the late season lamb. Cook the Gigot chops in a stew and you will raelly know the difference as you will with the half leg of lamb

Beef is the same it is not hybrid vigor is the difference of Irish Beef but the use of tradition breeds. I suspect these Spanish Gourmand's tasted Suckler beef from Hereford and angus cows. More than likey the cow was 50% Fr and 50% traditional breed bred to a continental bull. Maybe even 70-80% HE or AA. Dairy crosses off tradition breeds are the same some marbling with the leanness coming from the Fr influence. Mind you HO beef wins all tasting competitions maybe because it is carried to an older age.

Add to this a few more permutations a lot of dairy crosses are carried to nearly 30 months and Fr to beyond 30 months which often only eat 500kgs of ration throughout there lifetime. That is where taste and flavor comes from. I saw an interesting statistic last week. An average Dairy cow in Ireland will produce over 2k in milk output with a ration input of 500-800kgs on some farms. A suckler cow producing a bull calf killed as a steer as a 2 year old will output 1.5K on over a ton of ration, if killed as a bull at 16 months will out about 1600 euro at 1.5-2 ton of ration and as a U24 month bulls about 1800-2000 euro. Now these are not this years figures but rather figures from what would have been made over last 2-3 years. And most of this is a commodity product. Madness or what. But then too many lads like to look at a big arse

patsy_mccabe

Bass Reeves wrote: »

...... Madness or what. But then too many lads like to look at a big arse

Not too many calves with big arses getting a (Edit) Stun Gun in the head these days. :cool:

Say my name

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Not too many calves with big arses getting a (Edit) Stun Gun in the head these days. :cool:

Have you proof of that Patsy?

God knows the vegan animal rights groups would love it if you would send it on to them instead of just posting it here.

http://www.vegan.ie/

You ruin the whole beef industry with accusations like that.

patsy_mccabe

Edited it there for ya.

Say my name

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Edited it there for ya.

I know you're being blase about it.

But the beef movement hasn't much of a plan if it's recommendations is to attack the dairy industry and one of it's recommendations is to put calves to sleep.

You're burning your own house down.

Coonagh

Say my name wrote: »

I know you're being blase about it.

But the beef movement hasn't much of a plan if it's recommendations is to attack the dairy industry and one of it's recommendations is to put calves to sleep.

You're burning your own house down.

Dead on. I also see there is a plan to protest over the bottlenecks in the live exports...live exports are in a precarious position all over Europe and are losing the support of the general public. It’s a ridiculous move to go banging this drum in full view of the public...campaigns on issues such as live exports particularly calf live exports need to be handled carefully something the beef plan seems to be completely oblivious about.

wrangler

Coonagh wrote: »

Dead on. I also see there is a plan to protest over the bottlenecks in the live exports...live exports are in a precarious position all over Europe and are losing the support of the general public. It’s a ridiculous move to go banging this drum in full view of the public...campaigns on issues such as live exports particularly calf live exports need to be handled carefully something the beef plan seems to be completely oblivious about.

As bad as the beef industry is, these guys are going to make it worse.
Like IFA, lads won't be long about getting sick of protesting too

farawaygrass

Say my name wrote: »

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Edited it there for ya.

I know you're being blase about it.

But the beef movement hasn't much of a plan if it's recommendations is to attack the dairy industry and one of it's recommendations is to put calves to sleep.

You're burning your own house down.

Here here

older by the day

wrangler wrote: »

Coonagh wrote: »

Dead on. I also see there is a plan to protest over the bottlenecks in the live exports...live exports are in a precarious position all over Europe and are losing the support of the general public. It’s a ridiculous move to go banging this drum in full view of the public...campaigns on issues such as live exports particularly calf live exports need to be handled carefully something the beef plan seems to be completely oblivious about.

As bad as the beef industry is, these guys are going to make it worse.
Like IFA, lads won't be long about getting sick of protesting too

Is that the IFA policy for the last 30 years, to sit on their hands. Usually the IFA leader sells out for a better job in year two or three,. It's time to start shouting lads the house is on fire and talking among ourselfs won't fix it. There is an election the 24 th of May, if there is no action before then forget it

wrangler

older by the day wrote: »

Is that the IFA policy for the last 30 years, to sit on their hands. Usually the IFA leader sells out for a better job in year two or three,. It's time to start shouting lads the house is on fire and talking among ourselfs won't fix it. There is an election the 24 th of May, if there is no action before then forget it

How many protests was there over the years, majority of farmers didn't bother going so they think there was none. I was at five the last year I was in IFA, 2013, I think it was finally drummed in that year that protest was a waste of time and the same people were at them all
Unless BPM can sort something sustainable on slaughtering and selling their own. they will, as I forecast, finally prove that IFA have done all they could.
Protests and politicians are not the answer to the beef crisis, No government is going to interfere in private industry.
Signs are that this batch of calves will be in trouble until they're slaughtered in two years, as the glut will probably follow them right through .

TUBBY

As far as I can see, the aim is to help with beef farmers input costs through purchasing groups and outputs through producer groups. Simple.

See now that there is a lot of interest in producer groups with other orgs.

Any discussion on cattle specs, excessive trim and grading machines outside tolerance can only be good. The more transparency the better.

wrangler

TUBBY wrote: »

As far as I can see, the aim is to help with beef farmers input costs through purchasing groups and outputs through producer groups. Simple.

See now that there is a lot of interest in producer groups with other orgs.

Any discussion on cattle specs, excessive trim and grading machines outside tolerance can only be good. The more transparency the better.

Any discussion they're having is only among them selves, Producer Groups were always here but only for farmers that were prepared to help themselves, A national Purchasing group failed miserably 20 years ago, but there is small local purchasing groups going well around the the country same as small producer groups, that are doing a good job

Coonagh

Was there much of a turnout at the live export protest today?

Bass Reeves

Coonagh wrote: »

Was there much of a turnout at the live export protest today?

The minimum for a meeting in most organisations is the number in the committee plus one. Did they reach that.

Base price

Coonagh wrote: »

Was there much of a turnout at the live export protest today?

There was 14 anyway according to the photo - https://www.farmersjournal.ie/beef-plan-movement-protest-outside-andrew-doyle-s-office-445865

wrangler

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The minimum for a meeting in most organisations is the number in the committee plus one. Did they reach that.

It's apity that someone didn't make me aware of that 30 years ago....it'd explain a lot

charolais0153

Base price wrote: »

There was 14 anyway according to the photo - https://www.farmersjournal.ie/beef-plan-movement-protest-outside-andrew-doyle-s-office-445865

25 people were there according to agriland

Fuxake

the more I see of the Beef Plan the more I wonder what they are at? Do they know? they told us they were a group who wanted to unite farmers in withholding cattle supplies to get a better beef price. But since the New year, they have held two protests - one to get their bums on seats at the TB forum - and this one targeting Andrew Doyle who is hardly farmers biggest enemy. Now they are claiming that they are the second biggest representative association which isn't exactly a recipe for uniting all farmer representatives.... but they only got the crowds to come to marts who bought into them bringing the factories to their knees. starting to look more and more like a vanity project for a few Meath farmers to me.

alps

charolais0153 wrote: »

25 people were there according to agriland

It ain't easy...it sure ain't easy

ppn

Anyone watching Primetime earlier? More of the same from Cormac Healy (MII). He's well able to talk that fella. Still not giving up on the feedlots is he?
Whether it be factory-owned or factory-rented, the factory feedlot kill is still only 5% according to Cormac not the 20% farmers have been told. What about factory-contracted?
Is someone going to put this issue to bed anytime soon and present the concrete facts? There seems to be a lot of play on words here from any of the interviews I have seen with MII. The factory feedlot is no friend of this farmer anyways and I doubt the consumer would be impressed with them either - good riddance!

wrangler

ppn wrote: »

Anyone watching Primetime earlier? More of the same from Cormac Healy (MII). He's well able to talk that fella. Still not giving up on the feedlots is he?
Whether it be factory-owned or factory-rented, the factory feedlot kill is still only 5% according to Cormac not the 20% farmers have been told. What about factory-contracted?
Is someone going to put this issue to bed anytime soon and present the concrete facts? There seems to be a lot of play on words here from any of the interviews I have seen with MII. The factory feedlot is no friend of this farmer anyways and I doubt the consumer would be impressed with them either - good riddance!

Factory feedlots are no different to what farmers are doing on farm anyway in terms of feeding and management, so claiming the high moral ground in those areas will only backfire on BPM and thousands of farmers. Once you put 20 cattle in a pen in a shed, the image is the same whether you have 3 pens or 33 pens, Cattle are probably better cared for in the shed with 33 pens
The way BPM is carrying on you'd imagine there's a factory feedlot at every cross roads which isn't the case, We see in the lamb trade now that processors are ensuring that demand doesn't exceed supply, By ensuring supply the beef processors can create more demand iykwim.
Apparently if they lose shelf space because they can't supply, they lose it for months.

tractorporn

wrangler wrote: »

Factory feedlots are no different to what farmers are doing on farm anyway in terms of feeding and management, so claiming the high moral ground in those areas will only backfire on BPM and thousands of farmers. Once you put 20 cattle in a pen in a shed, the image is the same whether you have 3 pens or 33 pens, Cattle are probably better cared for in the shed with 33 pens
The way BPM is carrying on you'd imagine there's a factory feedlot at every cross roads which isn't the case, We see in the lamb trade now that processors are ensuring that demand doesn't exceed supply, By ensuring supply the beef processors can create more demand iykwim.
Apparently if they lose shelf space because they can't supply, they lose it for months.

I really don't know how you can convince yourself that a yard in Louth with 3500 cattle housed is no differ to what farmers are doing?

wrangler

tractorporn wrote: »

I really don't know how you can convince yourself that a yard in Louth with 3500 cattle housed is no differ to what farmers are doing?

Surely when they're on an indoor diet it doesn't matter where they are., Where do you draw the line, I know farmers that are keeping 500 -2000 cattle.
I also know places with 35 cattle that you'd be ashamed of
Will pigs be BPMs next target

wrangler

tractorporn wrote: »

I really don't know how you can convince yourself that a yard in Louth with 3500 cattle housed is no differ to what farmers are doing?

I see farmers shopping in Lidl and Aldi now and they have no problem letting small shops go to the wall. It's all about scale now and all farming now is going the same way.

Bass Reeves

Factory feedlots and factory contracted feedlots opearte to an agenda. Nobody said the controlled 20% of the kill all year. 5% of the kill condensed into certain times of year mainly pre and post Christmass and May/June means that they are killing 20% at these times. There agenda is to control the kill at certain times of year and prevent the processors having to contract out to ordinary farmers.

The owned feedlots operate at a loss and the contracted feedlots are paid a premium over other farmers. At present the price of 70-100 day cattle bears no relation to finished cattle prices. Yet most of these cattle are going to feedlots. Most non contracted operators specialize in Cows this time of year, summer finishers buy a slightly lighter animal in General. Looking at prices of bullocks during the week in Castleisland ( not the hottest mart in Ireland) Most 500kg+ bullocks would struggle to leave much with 100/head if going to grass at a base of 4.1/kg in mid June. Yet contracted and owned feedlots are being filled where the feeding cost will be over double what grass costs.

The real killer for ordinary farmers is what happens when there is over supply when these cattle are available. The processors will kill these cattle first back up farmers cattle and cut sh!t out of the price . Along with taht they will penalize all cattle that are outside there spec

Siamsa Sessions

wrangler wrote: »

I see farmers shopping in Lidl and Aldi now and they have no problem letting small shops go to the wall. It's all about scale now and all farming now is going the same way.

There will always be niche markets but they’re limited by definition so not everyone can supply them. The precedent has been set too by supermarkets, and nearly all modern consumer products are the same, for continuously lower prices - be it food, phones, flights, online music, books, cars, TVs, etc.

Consumers expect cheap food now and the efficient farmer gives it to them. Can’t see this changing unless Government starts a food/environment awareness programme, to counter the supermarkets codding the people, and consumers’ choices change over the course of a few years. Then if they’re willing to pay more, maybe beef, lamb, milk, vegetables, etc. will stabilise in price.

Til then, you need to have scale as Wrangler said, or supply/create a niche market.

wrangler

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Factory feedlots and factory contracted feedlots opearte to an agenda. Nobody said the controlled 20% of the kill all year. 5% of the kill condensed into certain times of year mainly pre and post Christmass and May/June means that they are killing 20% at these times. There agenda is to control the kill at certain times of year and prevent the processors having to contract out to ordinary farmers.

The owned feedlots operate at a loss and the contracted feedlots are paid a premium over other farmers. At present the price of 70-100 day cattle bears no relation to finished cattle prices. Yet most of these cattle are going to feedlots. Most non contracted operators specialize in Cows this time of year, summer finishers buy a slightly lighter animal in General. Looking at prices of bullocks during the week in Castleisland ( not the hottest mart in Ireland) Most 500kg+ bullocks would struggle to leave much with 100/head if going to grass at a base of 4.1/kg in mid June. Yet contracted and owned feedlots are being filled where the feeding cost will be over double what grass costs.

The real killer for ordinary farmers is what happens when there is over supply when these cattle are available. The processors will kill these cattle first back up farmers cattle and cut sh!t out of the price . Along with taht they will penalize all cattle that are outside there spec

So I suppose farmers should be supplying this market and forget about beeffinishing

ppn

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Factory feedlots and factory contracted feedlots opearte to an agenda. Nobody said the controlled 20% of the kill all year. 5% of the kill condensed into certain times of year mainly pre and post Christmass and May/June means that they are killing 20% at these times. There agenda is to control the kill at certain times of year and prevent the processors having to contract out to ordinary farmers.

The owned feedlots operate at a loss and the contracted feedlots are paid a premium over other farmers. At present the price of 70-100 day cattle bears no relation to finished cattle prices. Yet most of these cattle are going to feedlots. Most non contracted operators specialize in Cows this time of year, summer finishers buy a slightly lighter animal in General. Looking at prices of bullocks during the week in Castleisland ( not the hottest mart in Ireland) Most 500kg+ bullocks would struggle to leave much with 100/head if going to grass at a base of 4.1/kg in mid June. Yet contracted and owned feedlots are being filled where the feeding cost will be over double what grass costs.

The real killer for ordinary farmers is what happens when there is over supply when these cattle are available. The processors will kill these cattle first back up farmers cattle and cut sh!t out of the price . Along with taht they will penalize all cattle that are outside there spec

There needs to be some clarification about the goings on here, in relation to the article from Agriland below:

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/revealed-factory-feedlot-contribution-to-irish-beef-kill/

older by the day

wrangler wrote: »

tractorporn wrote: »

I really don't know how you can convince yourself that a yard in Louth with 3500 cattle housed is no differ to what farmers are doing?

I see farmers shopping in Lidl and Aldi now and they have no problem letting small shops go to the wall. It's all about scale now and all farming now is going the same way.

Is it any harm to fight for the family farm. Jayus you are on here every fxxking day knocking any plan that comes along. At least they are bringing attention to the situation. I dont want to get personal but reading your posts you sound like a man that have given up . I am sorry, but dont be knocking people who are making a bit of noise, just because farming was represented for the past twenty years by gutless leaders

wrangler

older by the day wrote: »

Is it any harm to fight for the family farm. Jayus you are on here every fxxking day knocking any plan that comes along. At least they are bringing attention to the situation. I dont want to get personal but reading your posts you sound like a man that have given up . I am sorry, but dont be knocking people who are making a bit of noise, just because farming was represented for the past twenty years by gutless leaders

or gutless farmers. Too many times I was told by politcians that I was the only one in the county that had an issue with something... ye better get your finger out or you'll have another movement that has given up
You've seen the support at their protests, how can any action be taken with gutless farmers,
It's as I forecast

older by the day

A lion leading an army of sheep is better than an army of lions led by a sheep. Look at your own posts on this tread, everything is lost, this won't work, that won't work.

wrangler

older by the day wrote: »

A lion leading an army of sheep is better than an army of lions led by a sheep. Look at your own posts on this tread, everything is lost, this won't work, that won't work.

Carry on then, processors are quite safe, no government is going to interfere in an industry that's doing well and providing employment no matter what independent TDs spout out,
You'll always have opposition TDs agreeing with any rubbish you feed them

Sheep breeder

Fuxake wrote: »

the more I see of the Beef Plan the more I wonder what they are at? Do they know? they told us they were a group who wanted to unite farmers in withholding cattle supplies to get a better beef price. But since the New year, they have held two protests - one to get their bums on seats at the TB forum - and this one targeting Andrew Doyle who is hardly farmers biggest enemy. Now they are claiming that they are the second biggest representative association which isn't exactly a recipe for uniting all farmer representatives.... but they only got the crowds to come to marts who bought into them bringing the factories to their knees. starting to look more and more like a vanity project for a few Meath farmers to me.

Wasn’t much point protesting out side Doyle’s office and he up in the dail tidying up for to go to Europe because he won’t get elected in Wicklow again as for time in the dail he has done zilch for the TB problem in Wicklow.

Sheep breeder

wrangler wrote: »

Factory feedlots are no different to what farmers are doing on farm anyway in terms of feeding and management, so claiming the high moral ground in those areas will only backfire on BPM and thousands of farmers. Once you put 20 cattle in a pen in a shed, the image is the same whether you have 3 pens or 33 pens, Cattle are probably better cared for in the shed with 33 pens
The way BPM is carrying on you'd imagine there's a factory feedlot at every cross roads which isn't the case, We see in the lamb trade now that processors are ensuring that demand doesn't exceed supply, By ensuring supply the beef processors can create more demand iykwim.
Apparently if they lose shelf space because they can't supply, they lose it for months.

Have to agree with you wrangler ( which is very rare) about feedlots and farmers how many of us require them around the ring to buy weanlings and stores to keep the show moving. If they were not there do you think the beef feeder wouldn’t make dirty of the seller. All links in a chain.

Sheep breeder

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Factory feedlots and factory contracted feedlots opearte to an agenda. Nobody said the controlled 20% of the kill all year. 5% of the kill condensed into certain times of year mainly pre and post Christmass and May/June means that they are killing 20% at these times. There agenda is to control the kill at certain times of year and prevent the processors having to contract out to ordinary farmers.

The owned feedlots operate at a loss and the contracted feedlots are paid a premium over other farmers. At present the price of 70-100 day cattle bears no relation to finished cattle prices. Yet most of these cattle are going to feedlots. Most non contracted operators specialize in Cows this time of year, summer finishers buy a slightly lighter animal in General. Looking at prices of bullocks during the week in Castleisland ( not the hottest mart in Ireland) Most 500kg+ bullocks would struggle to leave much with 100/head if going to grass at a base of 4.1/kg in mid June. Yet contracted and owned feedlots are being filled where the feeding cost will be over double what grass costs.

The real killer for ordinary farmers is what happens when there is over supply when these cattle are available. The processors will kill these cattle first back up farmers cattle and cut sh!t out of the price . Along with taht they will penalize all cattle that are outside there spec

Don’t know where your getting feed lots operate at a loss and the feedlot in Louth or clonee don’t run at a loss. The new being built in Wexford certainly won’t run at a loss if Bert has anything to say about it.

memorystick

wrangler wrote: »

So I suppose farmers should be supplying this market and forget about beeffinishing

That's my plan. Currently begging lads to come buy my finished heifers. Never again. Going to buy light bullocks and sell as forward stores. One year keep and no meal. Spending near €180 on meal for heifers is not profitable or sustainable.

wrangler

memorystick wrote: »

That's my plan. Currently begging lads to come buy my finished heifers. Never again. Going to buy light bullocks and sell as forward stores. One year keep and no meal. Spending near €180 on meal for heifers is not profitable or sustainable.

It's a good idea to be selling to a farmer if you can, It'll probably be hard enough to buy value in light cattle though, even calves are a hundred too dear

Willfarman

Sheep breeder wrote: »

Don’t know where your getting feed lots operate at a loss and the feedlot in Louth or clonee don’t run at a loss. The new being built in Wexford certainly won’t run at a loss if Bert has anything to say about it.

That place was never anymore that a wealthy mans folly. The man hadn’t much hobbies. Not to far from my part of the world and the place was always a great asset in terms of employment and spin offs for the area but no way has it ever held its own as a enterprise.

SuperTortoise

wrangler wrote: »

It's a good idea to be selling to a farmer if you can, It'll probably be hard enough to buy value in light cattle though, even calves are a hundred too dear

Is it calves that are dear or is it beef is too cheap?

Albert Johnson

SuperTortoise wrote: »

Is it calves that are dear or is it beef is too cheap?

If the finished product went up by a €100 then all other stock would go up by €150 a head overnight. I don't always agree with wrangler but he's right about being better off selling to farmers imo. A comment that stayed with me regarding the live trade of late is that "there's great courage about", despite all the negative factors lads are mad to spend money.