So...Ok then...How do we talk about it? (Irish Presidential Election Result)

Eric Cartman

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I would suggest with decades upon decades of Travelers being bad mouthed, there's not much for arguing the negative opinion hasn't and isn't, (Casey) being heard. The idea we should put every Traveler in the same basket is a loser. Discussing it is fair enough, but I still don't get what results are being sought. Is it for RTE and the like to broadcast 'Travelers are terrible people' and then we'll all go about our business?

The end goal is that the media stop allowing the likes of pavee point and john connors spout off about how settled people treat them or complain about the gardai and actually respond with tough questions like "what are you doing to reduce traveller criminality" "what are you doing to reduce child marraige", take them to task and if they want to go on television and speak for all travellers about discrimination then they can speak for all travellers about their self imposed exile from modern society.

Eric Cartman

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't know the incidence of that in the traveller community or how much it is changing.

I know plenty of 'fathers' in the settled community who would be misogynistic in various ways though.

How though, are we talking about lads saying 'nice tits' out the side of a car window or being full on rapists ? Because theres very little under the umbrella of 'misogyny' that would be worse than marrying off your 15 year old daughter for money, and most of the other things less and more severe than that would be accepted and even aplauded in the traveller community too.

FrancieBrady

Eric Cartman wrote: »

How though, are we talking about lads saying 'nice tits' out the side of a car window or being full on rapists ? Because theres very little under the umbrella of 'misogyny' that would be worse than marrying off your 15 year old daughter for money, and most of the other things less and more severe than that would be accepted and even aplauded in the traveller community too.

What is the incidence of this in the traveller community Eric?

We can sit around here for the rest of the night telling each other horrific stories of misogyny in the traveller and settled community and get absolutely nowhere.

There are women on my social media posting pictures of underwear with the slogan 'these are not consent'. These posts are certainly not aimed at the travelling community but settled men.
Misogyny is a society wide problem still, it seems.

Eric Cartman

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What is the incidence of this in the traveller community Eric?

We can sit around here for the rest of the night telling each other horrific stories of misogyny in the traveller and settled community and get absolutely nowhere.

There are women on my social media posting pictures of underwear with the slogan 'these are not consent'. These posts are certainly not aimed at the travelling community but settled men.
Misogyny is a society wide problem still, it seems.

Yes but why are you giving travellers a free pass when it is an infinitely larger problem in their community proportional to the rest of society ? And it presents itself in worse ways.

That case where a 17 year old was asked about a thing is nothing to do with this thread , but od ye know what, atleast that woman made it to court, in the travelling community she would have consulted a priest, or possobly just allowed her abuser to repeat for fear of being ousted.

FrancieBrady

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Yes but why are you giving travellers a free pass when it is an infinitely larger problem in their community proportional to the rest of society ? And it presents itself in worse ways.

That case where a 17 year old was asked about a thing is nothing to do with this thread , but od ye know what, atleast that woman made it to court, in the travelling community she would have consulted a priest, or possobly just allowed her abuser to repeat for fear of being ousted.

I haven't given anyone a 'free pass'. I am not aware of the extent of the problem.

Horrifying anecdotes are pretty useless in assessing the extent of the problem, is the point.
And if a child is being married off at 15 years of age and nobody is doing anything then it is a problem, same as if men are taking frilly knickers as a sign of consent then that too is a problem

markodaly

Matt Barrett wrote: »

The Tiki torch bearing white supremacists are a symptom of normalising such hate.

Ironic you accuse others of scaremongering and generalisations when you come out with this comment yourself.

Casey says something about Travellers camping on other peoples and, the logical conclusions of course, if he goes unchallenged is that there are going to be right-wing neo-Nazis marching through Irish towns with burning torches.

This is actually a good insight into the progressive mind, its a kinda whack-a-mole mindset, where anything and anyone who says anything remotely contentious which could be racist, needs to be called out on it (i.e silenced) as if we don't ....something something Hitler.

markodaly

Matt Barrett wrote: »

More than quite possibly, otherwise the suggestion is that it is DNA. That's were the wheels come off.

I have not heard anyone in this thread, state that there is something inherently wrong with Travellers genetically.

The key issue is the culture.

Did you see that video posted a week or so back when two men fighting outside Garda HQ in Galway?

You had the oldest son bellowing out something about his father never going to back down or some words to that effect while holding a mobile phone showing footage of his father engaging in a violent act in broad daylight.
The younger kids, too young to know what was going on, were screaming and crying with fear.

THIS.IS.NOT.NORMAL!

When you have generations of people brought up in this type of environment, where they are pulled out of school before they are teenagers, then of course life outcomes for them in modern Ireland is going to be worse than the average Irish person who gets a leaving cert. This is just obvious to anyone.

It is illegal to stop your kids from going to school in Ireland, we have laws on the books about this, yet is it ever enforced in these situations? It starts here.

The Dept. of Children, in my opinion, should be much more interventionist with Traveller children. If kids, who through no fault of their own are not getting educated then they should be taken from their parents by force. The progressives will probably lose their mind but they care more about their own virtue signaling and vanity than about kids getting an education.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

I have not heard anyone in this thread, state that there is something inherently wrong with Travellers genetically.

The key issue is the culture.

Did you see that video posted a week or so back when two men fighting outside Garda HQ in Galway?

You had the oldest son bellowing out something about his father never going to back down or some words to that effect while holding a mobile phone showing footage of his father engaging in a violent act in broad daylight.
The younger kids, too young to know what was going on, were screaming and crying with fear.

THIS.IS.NOT.NORMAL!

When you have generations of people brought up in this type of environment, where they are pulled out of school before they are teenagers, then of course life outcomes for them in modern Ireland is going to be worse than the average Irish person who gets a leaving cert. This is just obvious to anyone.

It is illegal to stop your kids from going to school in Ireland, we have laws on the books about this, yet is it ever enforced in these situations? It starts here.

The Dept. of Children, in my opinion, should be much more interventionist with Traveller children. If kids, who through no fault of their own are not getting educated then they should be taken from their parents by force. The progressives will probably lose their mind but they care more about their own virtue signaling and vanity than about kids getting an education.

Beating up a referree is not normal either.

Violence happens, and it all needs to be treated equally. It is a human trait, and respects no single strata of society.
Maybe you are 'culturally' disposed to just notice traveller violence more?

Eric Cartman

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Beating up a referree is not normal either.

Violence happens, and it all needs to be treated equally. It is a human trait, and respects no single strata of society.
Maybe you are 'culturally' disposed to just notice traveller violence more?

you just keep throwing in 'whataboutery' , yes other sections of society commit crimes, we all know that. But its the disproportionate rate at which travellers commit crimes thats the issue. 22% of the prison population and less than 1% of the general population, thats a shocking difference.

There is no obstacle to attempting to improve situations in working class areas or increase Garda presence to reduce crime, but when you talk about increasing scrutiny on the travelling community (which clearly needs it) , pavee point are out to call you a racist.

blanch152

Tell me how wrote: »

On the homophobia angle, my point on the similarities with Irish culture just show that we can say we are perfect. Have you any thoughts on Beans Ward being accepted when he came out?

On the misogyny element, I think you've given examples of extreme practices bit I'm not sure if it can be said if this is a common practice within the culture.

Travellers education rates are poor but is this not the same for male and female?

On the numbers in refuge centres. If this is true, that they are disproportionate to wider society, then, this is something which I think Pavee point should be asked as to their opinion on and then investigate potential causes.

At least one traveller seems to think laws against teen marriage are an attack on their culture:

https://www.thesun.ie/archives/irish-news/117271/kelly-law-to-stop-young-people-getting-married-is-anti-travellers/

Here is one priest's experience, obviously denied by a traveller group.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/traveller-group-rejects-priest-s-claim-on-young-or-arranged-marriage-1.2101955

But less of the anecdotes, what does the CSO say?

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp8iter/p8iter/p8itd/

"Among the general population 5.8 per cent of 15-29 year olds were married, compared with 3 in 10 (31.9%) of the Irish Traveller population."

And women don't find it easy to escape from their men either:

"The divorce rate among Irish travellers was 2.2 per cent, compared with 4.7 per cent for the general population."

Women are expected to produce heirs:

"Among Traveller women aged 40-49 (the age by which women have typically completed their fertility) 13.3 per cent had not given birth to a child - compared with 18.3 per cent of women generally. Nearly half had given birth to 5 or more children, in stark contrast to just under 1 in 20 (4.2%) of women overall in this age group."

The Irish Times thinks their women are abused:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/traveller-women-30-times-more-likely-to-suffer-domestic-violence-report-1.707916

"TRAVELLER WOMEN are proportionately 30 times as likely as settled women to suffer domestic violence"


IF there is a single person on these boards who is prepared to ignore the reality of a deeply misogynistic Traveller culture, then they are ignoring the evidence. There is no doubt that what I have said about their misogynist culture is completely true. Absolute rubbish to suggest it is only extreme practices.

As for homophobia, have a read of this:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/gay-travellers-entering-arranged-marriages-to-avoid-shame-1.3248791

"Young gay Travellers are entering arranged marriages because they do not want to shame their families, according to a 22-year-old Traveller who spent years covering up his own sexual orientation."

I am really disappointed with a number of posters who would have been strong supporters of the SSM referendum, but have been on here aggressively defending travellers. Not all minorities are oppressed, not all minorities are the good guys, not all minorities have a pleasant culture.

FrancieBrady

Eric Cartman wrote: »

you just keep throwing in 'whataboutery' , yes other sections of society commit crimes, we all know that. But its the disproportionate rate at which travellers commit crimes thats the issue. 22% of the prison population and less than 1% of the general population, thats a shocking difference.

There is no obstacle to attempting to improve situations in working class areas or increase Garda presence to reduce crime, but when you talk about increasing scrutiny on the travelling community (which clearly needs it) , pavee point are out to call you a racist.

There is only one way to sort this, and that is to treat all crime and those who commit it the same, is the point.

Eric Cartman

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is only one way to sort this, and that is to treat all crime and those who commit it the same, is the point.

If what you're saying is that coming from a bad area, minority community or a lack of education are no longer mitigating circumstances in sentencing, then absolutely yes, I agree with you.

If the travelling community were held to the same standards as the middle class infront of a judge , most would never see the light of day again. You certainly wouldn't have the likes of Margaret '39 previous convictions in 10 years' Cash roaming our streets.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, it isn't a huge issue for me as I haven't experienced it or seen it anymore than it exists in settled culture.

I haven't experienced misogynism from Catholics Priests or Muslim Clerics. I guess its not a problem so. :rolleyes::P

FrancieBrady

Eric Cartman wrote: »

If what you're saying is that coming from a bad area, minority community or a lack of education are no longer mitigating circumstances in sentencing, then absolutely yes,

If the travelling community were held to the same standards as the middle class infront of a judge , most would never see the light of day again.

The entire community??? You are generalising again.

Eric Cartman

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The entire community??? You are generalising again.

infront of a judge , the ones who end up infront of a judge, not lock the entire lot up, will you just read a post in context and not just hit reply and freak out before reading it. Notice you didn't freak out about 'generalising' the middle class as a group....

FrancieBrady

Eric Cartman wrote: »

infront of a judge , the ones who end up infront of a judge, not lock the entire lot up, will you just read a post in context and not just hit reply and freak out before reading it. Notice you didn't freak out about 'generalising' the middle class as a group....

If criminals are ending up in front of a judge and walking free, whose fault is that?

There is a perception here that courts are light touch for a lot of crime.

Treat all crime and perpetrators the same. Problem solved it would seem to me. Might I even suggest zero tolerance,would solve a lot of issues and one community does not get victimised or worse, feel itself to be victimised.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Beating up a referree is not normal either.

Violence happens, and it all needs to be treated equally. It is a human trait, and respects no single strata of society.
Maybe you are 'culturally' disposed to just notice traveller violence more?

More strawmen there Francie. I never said that travelers had a monopoly on violence.
What I did say is that their culture in relation to education, does not entail themselves to good outcomes, thus many of them are stuck in a cycle of poverty, ill health, violence, and criminality.

You said this yourself about the problems they have, 'Criminality within the traveller community'.

Criminality goes side by side with violence. You admit that they have an issue with Criminality (aka violence). Here you are being your usual contrarian self, just disagreeing for the sake of it.

#The sky is Blue.
#No the sky is not Blue, the sky is Magenta...

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

More strawmen there Francie. I never said that travelers had a monopoly on violence.
What I did say is that their culture in relation to education, does not entail themselves to good outcomes, thus many of them are stuck in a cycle of poverty, ill health, violence, and criminality.

You said this yourself about the problems they have, 'Criminality within the traveller community'.

Criminality goes side by side with violence. You admit that they have an issue with Criminality (aka violence). Here you are being your usual contrarian self, just disagreeing for the sake of it.

#The sky is Blue.
#No the sky is not Blue, the sky is Magenta...

I did say that and education is the key.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If criminals are ending up in front of a judge and walking free, whose fault is that?

There is a perception here that courts are light touch for a lot of crime.

Treat all crime and perpetrators the same. Problem solved it would seem to me. Might I even suggest zero tolerance,would solve a lot of issues and one community does not get victimised or worse, feel itself to be victimised.

Ah Francie, you don't really believe in zero tolerance.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/john-downey-brought-before-court-on-extradition-warrant-1.3688574

Do you think that John Downey should face the full force of the law and zero tolerance applied to him? Or will there be an exception for some criminals?

I have posted the facts from the CSO on how women are treated in traveller culture. Are you still adamant that because you have not seen bad treatment of women that it isn't endemic?

Midlife

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Have the travelling community and pavee point agree that the problems theyve caused their own community are real and that elements of their culture are toxic and have them explain what they'll do and what supports they need (not monetary supports or social housing) to reform their own community with a targetted outcome. Revisit in 10 years , if they havent achieved a 70% school completion rate and reduced the number of younger travellers entering the criminal justice system by half and are atleast 70% tax compliant then sanctions take place.

So you take a group on the fringes of society and demand (without incentive) that they have to admit that it's basically all their fault and improve all of these metrics within 10 years or else.

I'm sure they'd go for that in a big way.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Ah Francie, you don't really believe in zero tolerance.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/john-downey-brought-before-court-on-extradition-warrant-1.3688574

Do you think that John Downey should face the full force of the law and zero tolerance applied to him? Or will there be an exception for some criminals?

I have posted the facts from the CSO on how women are treated in traveller culture. Are you still adamant that because you have not seen bad treatment of women that it isn't endemic?

You know my position on the conflict/war that happened here and a truth commission. It's not really relevant. If all involved are answerable then that is fine, in my book.

I would support a policy of zero tolerance to tackle crime across the country committed by anyone, from government to gardai to middle class, upper class, etc etc

I accept the findings you posted, and I see no other cure for that other than education, education, education.
What is your suggestion?

Eric Cartman

Midlife wrote: »

So you take a group on the fringes of society and demand (without incentive) that they have to admit that it's basically all their fault and improve all of these metrics within 10 years or else.

I'm sure they'd go for that in a big way.

well the alternative is just cut off all the supports they currently have and go 0 tolerance on crime as a user above suggested, then see how many are left.

it is completely all their own fault.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You know my position on the conflict/war that happened here and a truth commission. It's not really relevant. If all involved are answerable then that is fine, in my book.

I would support a policy of zero tolerance to tackle crime across the country committed by anyone, from government to gardai to middle class, upper class, etc etc

I accept the findings you posted, and I see no other cure for that other than education, education, education.
What is your suggestion?

Integration.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Integration.

How do you solve the problem that is clearly evident, that the settled community don't want to integrate. That has been made abundantly clear.

oscarBravo

Eric Cartman wrote: »

If the travelling community were held to the same standards as the middle class infront of a judge , most would never see the light of day again.

Is that your proposed solution to the Traveller problem? Imprison them for the rest of their lives?

Like middle-class people are when they commit crimes? At least, I think that's what you're trying to claim.

oscarBravo

blanch152 wrote: »

Integration.

How?

Eric Cartman

Eric Cartman wrote: »

No , it exists. Have a look at any scenario that goes on , the EDL/BNP/Pegida marches, all working class people, stormfront / white supremacists etc.. all working class uneducated people, most of the hate you rally against all comes from working class people and working class areas, whens the last time a gay kid in dalkey was killed, because we all know the last time it happened in tallaght.

That author and your assumption that this is affluent white men subjugating anyone or spreading hate is false, its the uneducated working class perpetuating it .

You never answered my last question ?

oscarBravo wrote: »

Is that your proposed solution to the Traveller problem? Imprison them for the rest of their lives?

Like middle-class people are when they commit crimes? At least, I think that's what you're trying to claim.

I'm saying that their 'position' as a 'marginalised' group gets them more lenience in sentencing, something that is not available to the middle classes, FrancieBrady argued that he wanted everyone to be treated equally infront of a judge, which I would agree with, the first step to that is removing these 'mitigations' for lack of education / membership of the travelling community / living conditions.

Midlife

Eric Cartman wrote: »

well the alternative is just cut off all the supports they currently have and go 0 tolerance on crime as a user above suggested, then see how many are left.

it is completely all their own fault.

See this is the thing.

Casey had no interest in doing anything constructive. He just wanted to apportion blame to travellers for crime, loss of housing prices etc.

Similarily, I feel if you actually gave a **** you'd perhaps try to suggest a strategy which may actually work.

But I believe the current stance is more about being overtly politically incorrect and dishing out blame rather than aftually looking forward in any meangingful way.

By all means, go for it. But don't expect to get anywhere aside from stoking up argument.

Eric Cartman

Midlife wrote: »

See this is the thing.

Casey had no interest in doing anything constructive. He just wanted to apportion blame to travellers for crime, loss of housing prices etc.

Similarily, I feel if you actually gave a **** you'd perhaps try to suggest a strategy which may actually work.

But I believe the current stance is more about being overtly politically incorrect and dishing out blame rather than aftually looking forward in any meangingful way.

By all means, go for it. But don't expect to get anywhere aside from stoking up argument.

The solution is for the travelling community to stop trying to cling on to their ancient culture, grow up and live in a modern society where we don't take our kids out of school, don't marry off girls at 15, don't commit crime as a way of life and don't blame everyone except ourselves for our own problems.

This is a problem traveller culture created
This is a problem for traveller communities to solve
This is exclusively the fault of the travelling community as a whole, even the ones not engaging in crimes are complicit in not informing the gardai about them.
The attitudes won't go away in the settled community until they get their house (or caravan) in order.

Midlife

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The solution is for the travelling community to stop trying to cling on to their ancient culture, grow up and live in a modern society where we don't take our kids out of school, don't marry off girls at 15, don't commit crime as a way of life and don't blame everyone except ourselves for our own problems.

This is a problem traveller culture created
This is a problem for traveller communities to solve
This is exclusively the fault of the travelling community as a whole, even the ones not engaging in crimes are complicit in not informing the gardai about them.
The attitudes won't go away in the settled community until they get their house (or caravan) in order.

The solution to what exactly? What's the problem?

But in a nutshell, you're acknowledging they have an ancient culture?