So...Ok then...How do we talk about it? (Irish Presidential Election Result)

blanch152

demfad wrote: »

Some reasons for the high representation for minorities and why not to draw the wrong conclusions (as you did) bolded above.

You'll note that at no point is 'using domestic violence statistics as an excuse to fire racial slurs at minorities' mentioned.

The truth is you don't care about traveller womens issues, you dont care about womens issues. When it comes to domestic violence youre probably a "But why didn't she just leave" guy.

Ridiculous.

"One of the most significant findings is that Traveller women and certain categories of non-indigenous minority ethnic women in Ireland do face an increased risk of GBV."

"Traveller women comprised an average of 15 per cent of service users, yet according to Census 2006, Traveller women represent 0.5 per cent of the total population of women aged 15 years and over."

No more needs to be said.

No explanation needed.

demfad

blanch152 wrote: »

Ridiculous.

"One of the most significant findings is that Traveller women and certain categories of non-indigenous minority ethnic women in Ireland do face an increased risk of GBV."

"Traveller women comprised an average of 15 per cent of service users, yet according to Census 2006, Traveller women represent 0.5 per cent of the total population of women aged 15 years and over."

No more needs to be said.

No explanation needed.

Again From the study: It appears you drew the wrong conclusions. Learn from the experts.

It is important not to draw conclusions about levels or severity of domestic violence amongst particular minority ethnic communities given some appear 'over-represented' in refuge provision. Instead it shows that minority women face additional barriers to obtaining long-term safety and lack other possible options than emergency accommodation.

Midlife

blanch152 wrote: »

Ridiculous.

"One of the most significant findings is that Traveller women and certain categories of non-indigenous minority ethnic women in Ireland do face an increased risk of GBV."

"Traveller women comprised an average of 15 per cent of service users, yet according to Census 2006, Traveller women represent 0.5 per cent of the total population of women aged 15 years and over."

No more needs to be said.

No explanation needed.

No long more needs to be said provided the purpose of the conversation is to demonise travellers.

Like i said a couple of days ago here. My big problem with Casey's comments is that he didn't give a **** about resolving any issues. He simply had a go at travellers.

It seems that's the main goal of some posters here too.

Grand, you've had your go.

Now what?

blanch152

Midlife wrote: »

No long more needs to be said provided the purpose of the conversation is to demonise travellers.

Like i said a couple of days ago here. My big problem with Casey's comments is that he didn't give a **** about resolving any issues. He simply had a go at travellers.

It seems that's the main goal of some posters here too.

Grand, you've had your go.

Now what?

Before we solve a problem, we have to agree that there is a problem.

Some posters appear to be saying that there is no problem with Traveller culture. Will they next be defending FGM in African culture?

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Before we solve a problem, we have to agree that there is a problem.

Some posters appear to be saying that there is no problem with Traveller culture. Will they next be defending FGM in African culture?

I haven't seen one poster to say that. There are issues in the traveller community.

James Brown

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I haven't seen one poster to say that. There are issues in the traveller community.

It's the old gimmick. If you disagree you're agreeing to something else. Then you are called out on that.
There is criminality among poor and disenfranchised groups such as Travelers.
If some are here to point that out great. So as the man says, 'now what?'.

blanch152

demfad wrote: »

Again From the study: It appears you drew the wrong conclusions. Learn from the experts.

Sorry about this but you are using a minor caveat to distract from the main findings of the report. If you believe that domestic violence in the travelling community is at the same level as the settled community, produce a single piece of evidence that says that.

oscarBravo

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I haven't seen one poster to say that. There are issues in the traveller community.

Of course there are problems. Everyone knows there are problems. But it's easier to vigorously attack the straw man of "we need to acknowledge that there's a problem" than to actually offer anything constructive.

demfad

blanch152 wrote: »

Sorry about this but you are using a minor caveat to distract from the main findings of the report. If you believe that domestic violence in the travelling community is at the same level as the settled community, produce a single piece of evidence that says that.

Again the report says that more cases of domestic violence occur in the traveller compared with the settled community but the report (not me, thats why I quoted it) also says:

It is important not to draw conclusions about levels or severity of domestic violence amongst particular minority ethnic communities given some appear 'over-represented' in refuge provision. Instead it shows that minority women face additional barriers to obtaining long-term safety and lack other possible options than emergency accommodation.

This means that the options available to settled women are not available to traveller women. Disgusting that you are using domestic violence against women in the travelling community as a stick to beat every traveller including women and children. Shame on you. Move on.

FrancieBrady

demfad wrote: »

Again the report says that more cases of domestic violence occur in the traveller compared with the settled community but the report (not me, thats why I quoted it) also says:



This means that the options available to settled women are not available to traveller women. Disgusting that you are using domestic violence against women in the travelling community as a stick to beat every traveller including women and children. Shame on you. Move on.

Totally agree with that last bit. Across social media, this is the irrational, ill informed reaction Casey incited and it is as dangerous as it is useless.

Eric Cartman

oscarBravo wrote: »

Of course there are problems. Everyone knows there are problems. But it's easier to vigorously attack the straw man of "we need to acknowledge that there's a problem" than to actually offer anything constructive.

But there is nothing constructive we can do bar 0 tolerance policing and getting Tusla to literally drag all the children to school in the morning. The traveller community are doing nothing to fix the problem themselves.

oscarBravo

Eric Cartman wrote: »

But there is nothing constructive we can do bar 0 tolerance policing and getting Tusla to literally drag all the children to school in the morning.

Well, there's an upbeat, positive approach to the issue.

Has it ever occurred to you that if you can't think of any solution to a problem other than bitching incessantly combined with fascism, maybe you're part of the problem?

RandomName2

oscarBravo wrote: »

Of course there are problems. Everyone knows there are problems. But it's easier to vigorously attack the straw man of "we need to acknowledge that there's a problem" than to actually offer anything constructive.

Look if it wasn't so obvious that you're patently against the concept of acknowledging there is a problem, this would come off as less disingenuous.

Oh you can say that you are in favor of discussing the problems that have been highlighted, but actions speak louder than words. You have only criticized people doing such. You are still doing it. Which belies your statement of it being a straw man; because the capacity to talk about it is the very nature of the debate. For crying out loud, it's even in the thread title!

Oh, but you're looking for answers, not people simply bitching about problems.

A very sound motive, right? I mean if you take it at face value.

But here is an interesting thing. You provide no answers, criticize any suggestions provided by people, and have felt that Casey should have been shut down.

I mean the article you posted, which you very much agree with, states it pretty clearly

Affluent white men expressing disdain for minorities and poorer people is not new. It is not ground-breaking. It is exactly the same rhetoric and oppression that has existed for centuries and there is nothing remotely rebellious about it – it is in fact the opposite. It is conformity in its most basic form.

Alllllrrrright then. You invite people to discuss this.. non-provocateur.. and when someone says

Her lack of self-awareness for someone pontificating from a height is staggering. A throwaway unneccesary remark castigating all white men renders her point completely moot and leaves her looking stupid.

You say that he is, and I quote, mansplaining.

Congratulations oscarbaravo. That really is quite an accomplishment, even by your standards.

Eric Cartman

oscarBravo wrote: »

Well, there's an upbeat, positive approach to the issue.

Has it ever occurred to you that if you can't think of any solution to a problem other than bitching incessantly combined with fascism, maybe you're part of the problem?

Whats your solution to the problem so ? and I mean the problem of travellers behaving the way they do, 'making settled people not hate them' isn't the problem or a solution. How would you solve the traveller problem ?

And on the topic of education , there was a secondary school for travellers open before, this is what happened :
https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2018/0417/955220-st-thomas/

The inspection found that no homework was given to the students and the duration of the school day was that of a primary school, ending at 2.20pm, despite the fact that it caters for secondary school age students.

It found poor attendance and what it called "inconsistent" learning behaviour.

It also found a significant number of students left school early without completing junior cycle programmes and without certification.

The report said that neither Irish nor any modern language was taught as a subject there.

English, maths, science, history, home economics and art were the only academic subjects offered.

oscarBravo

RandomName2 wrote: »

Look if it wasn't so obvious that you're patently against the concept of acknowledging there is a problem...

Yeah, there was no point reading the rest of your post, frankly.

James Brown

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Whats your solution to the problem so ? and I mean the problem of travellers behaving the way they do, 'making settled people not hate them' isn't the problem or a solution. How would you solve the traveller problem ?

What are you doing to stop robberies, fraud, domestic abuse in your community?

This is the problem with tarring an entire people with the same traits. It's handy to compartmentalise a set of people as criminal or homophobic and blame every man jack of them for the habits of their neighbour.
Otherwise criminal elements within society commit criminal acts. Shocker.
Is the idea being put forward that we treat all Travelers like they are inherently inclined to break the law? If so, that's racism. If not, they should be looked at like the rest of society and held to account for any wrong doing. Breaking the law is wrong. So that's Travelers sorted.

oscarBravo

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Whats your solution to the problem so ? and I mean the problem of travellers behaving the way they do...

A first step might be acknowledging that that's not the only problem.

Eric Cartman

oscarBravo wrote: »

A first step might be acknowledging that that's not the only problem.

Ive repeated at infinitum the amount of issues common in the traveller community , yes other people commit crimes and abuse women etc.. but the problem is much worse than in general society among this community and if we drill down everyone acknowledges that a lack of education is likely the root cause,

My argument is that the removal from education is part of their culture and self imposed and that needs to be resolved.

Eric Cartman

Matt Barrett wrote: »

What are you doing to stop robberies, fraud, domestic abuse in your community?

This is the problem with tarring an entire people with the same traits. It's handy to compartmentalise a set of people as criminal or homophobic and blame every man jack of them for the habits of their neighbour.
Otherwise criminal elements within society commit criminal acts. Shocker.
Is the idea being put forward that we treat all Travelers like they are inherently inclined to break the law? If so, that's racism. If not, they should be looked at like the rest of society and held to account for any wrong doing. Breaking the law is wrong. So that's Travelers sorted.

Reporting criminals to the gardai and social welfare when I encounter a crime or suspected welfare fraud.

Its a recognised issue in council estates and other 'bad' areas too, this 'we won't involve the gardai, we'll take care of it ourselves' attitude has come back to bite them hard, if you report little billy for smashing in a car window or nicking sweets, maybe the JLO can intervene and keep an eye on him before he starts robbing cars / selling drugs and ruins his life.

Travellers are by hard statistics much more prone to criminality than settled people , the ones who don't commit the crime are also much less likely to report it to gardai than settled people, its a cycle where even the ones not involved in criminality are usually culpable because they are ignoring it or not reporting it from other members of their family / neighbours etc...

demfad

Eric Cartman wrote: »

My argument is that the removal from education is part of their culture and self imposed and that needs to be resolved.

Educating females is the quickest route to progress in these areas. We saw this in the settled community.

It has been pointed out in this thread the likely abnormally high incidence of abuse committed towards travellers through industrial schools and religious schools.
We can also assume serious amounts of generalised discrimination (nothing but criminals, dirty, stupid, evil) you know the type of stuff that settled kids would learn from their parents and society.
By the behaviour of many teachers in religious schools towards settled children particularly poor settled children we can safely assume that poor traveller children got extra special treatment.
A logical result of all this might be children wanting to get out of school as early as possible. This isnt self imposed by any means.
It is not hard to see why education may not be valued, or at least a travellers chance of being educated.

Eric Cartman

demfad wrote: »

Educating females is the quickest route to progress in these areas. We saw this in the settled community.

It has been pointed out in this thread the likely abnormally high incidence of abuse committed towards travellers through industrial schools and religious schools.
We can also assume serious amounts of generalised discrimination (nothing but criminals, dirty, stupid, evil) you know the type of stuff that settled kids would learn from their parents and society.
By the behaviour of many teachers in religious schools towards settled children particularly poor settled children we can safely assume that poor traveller children got extra special treatment.
A logical result of all this might be children wanting to get out of school as early as possible. This isnt self imposed by any means.
It is not hard to see why education may not be valued, or at least a travellers chance of being educated.

Im sorry but do you have any evidence at all that travellers were en masse abused in religious or industrial schools , let alone evidence that it happened more than settled children ? This just sounds like it was pulled out of the air.

oscarBravo

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Im sorry but do you have any evidence at all that travellers were en masse abused in religious or industrial schools , let alone evidence that it happened more than settled children ? This just sounds like it was pulled out of the air.

...and I'm the one accused of not wanting to acknowledge that there's a problem.

Midlife

Research indicates that Travellers are particularly disadvantaged
compared with the general population with regard to their health status.
• Travellers’ life expectancy is still at levels experienced by the settled
population in the 1940s.
• Travellers have more than double the average rate of stillbirths.
• Infant mortality rates are three times higher than the national rate.
• Traveller men live, on average, ten years less than settled men.
• Traveller women live, on average, twelve years less than settled
women.

Of course there's a problem.

Now what? Lock them all up?

markodaly

demfad wrote: »

In Ireland last year a man murdered his entire family brutally and yet was immediately heralded by society as being misunderstood, kind of a tragic hero.
.

If you are talking about that family in Cavan, sorry but no. He was not portrayed as any kind of hero what so ever. Using that incident to push a narrative that 'everyone is a misogynist, so travelers are grand' is insulting and grossly offensive to that family who was murdered.

oscarBravo

markodaly wrote: »

...a narrative that 'everyone is a misogynist, so travelers are grand'...

The straw man factory is in overdrive.

James Brown

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Reporting criminals to the gardai and social welfare when I encounter a crime or suspected welfare fraud.

Its a recognised issue in council estates and other 'bad' areas too, this 'we won't involve the gardai, we'll take care of it ourselves' attitude has come back to bite them hard, if you report little billy for smashing in a car window or nicking sweets, maybe the JLO can intervene and keep an eye on him before he starts robbing cars / selling drugs and ruins his life.

Travellers are by hard statistics much more prone to criminality than settled people , the ones who don't commit the crime are also much less likely to report it to gardai than settled people, its a cycle where even the ones not involved in criminality are usually culpable because they are ignoring it or not reporting it from other members of their family / neighbours etc...

But are you held responsible for criminal acts within your community? Crimes continue, you don't seem to be doing enough. I know settled areas were anyone reporting any crime to the authorities is 'a rat'. We could trade settled/traveler stories all night.
Look, if everything you say is true, what's next?
I agree all peoples should adhere to all laws.

Wheeliebin30

Midlife wrote: »

Research indicates that Travellers are particularly disadvantaged
compared with the general population with regard to their health status.
• Travellers’ life expectancy is still at levels experienced by the settled
population in the 1940s.
• Travellers have more than double the average rate of stillbirths.
• Infant mortality rates are three times higher than the national rate.
• Traveller men live, on average, ten years less than settled men.
• Traveller women live, on average, twelve years less than settled
women.

Of course there's a problem.

Now what? Lock them all up?

What??


Who’s fault are the above????

How the fook is any of the above the settled communities fault?

Midlife

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

What??


Who’s fault are the above????

How the fook is any of the above the settled communities fault?

Who said it was?

Wheeliebin30

Midlife wrote: »

Who said it was?

So you agree it’s their fault?

Eric Cartman

Matt Barrett wrote: »

But are you held responsible for criminal acts within your community? Crimes continue, you don't seem to be doing enough. I know settled areas were anyone reporting any crime to the authorities is 'a rat'. We could trade settled/traveler stories all night.
Look, if everything you say is true, what's next?
I agree all peoples should adhere to all laws.

Those areas are generally called council estates and anyone familiar with my posting history knows that I've had a go at those too.

What next is to have the gardai organise a policy of super vigilance around halting sites , expedited rules to move them off other peoples land, a school attendance education program and possibly school bus service with a list of children to mandatorily be collected every day, ANPR cameras at the entrance to halting sites to check for stolen vehicles, CAB and Revenue getting special powers and protection from the ERU to search halting sites.

its about saying "It ends here , clean up your act, send your kids to school or you'll end up in prison for the rest of your life, but if you give it all up we'll offer help and training , but its one or the other, you can't dip in and out of Both"