So...Ok then...How do we talk about it? (Irish Presidential Election Result)

FrancieBrady

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

What??


Who’s fault are the above????

How the fook is any of the above the settled communities fault?

Those problems/symptons exist in most marginalised communities in the world.
We, settled people, have our share of the blame for them being marginalised.

Eric Cartman

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Those problems/symptons exist in most marginalised communities in the world.
We, settled people, have our share of the blame for them being marginalised.

No we don't , its not middle Irelands fault, its not my fault, its nobody but the travellers themselves.

Midlife

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

So you agree it’s their fault?

No.

Why does it have to be someone's fault? how does that help us resolve it?

markodaly

oscarBravo wrote: »

The straw man factory is in overdrive.

Oneliners does not make it any less true. That other post I pointed out was whataboutery at its finest.

The CSO statistics are clear-cut on the level of domestic abuse suffered by traveler women, which is a clear indication of a higher level of misogyny than the general population. But because some man in Cavan killed his family and was supposedly portrayed as a hero, sure its all grand so..

This is a classic case of ignoring that there is a problem within traveler culture.

Midlife

Waaa Waaaaaa

Blame Blame WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH

Good work lads

All their fault. No-one to blame but themselves etc etc.

Wheeliebin30

Midlife wrote: »

Waaa Waaaaaa

Blame Blame WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH

Good work lads

All their fault. No-one to blame but themselves etc etc.

Well who’s fault is it?????

markodaly

Stuff like this is what I am on about.

Gardai arrest score of people involved in organised begging.
Irish Times finest Kitty Holland shouts "RACIST!!"

https://twitter.com/KittyHollandIT/status/1062488654629797888

Its no wonder we cant even talk about it openly.

Wheeliebin30

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Those problems/symptons exist in most marginalised communities in the world.
We, settled people, have our share of the blame for them being marginalised.

Hmmmm geeee, I wonder why!!??

Midlife

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Well who’s fault is it?????

Can it not be a situation that arose rather than someone's fault?

Are we really better off arguing over who is to blame rather than arguing over what measures should be taken?

Eric Cartman

Midlife wrote: »

Can it not be a situation that arose rather than someone's fault?

Are we really better off arguing over who is to blame rather than arguing over what measures should be taken?

We are arguing over how to fix a problem that some of society doesn't even recognise exist and the travelling community themselves fail to acknowledge their responsibility, see it as a problem or take steps to solve it.

markodaly

Midlife wrote: »

Can it not be a situation that arose rather than someone's fault?

Are we really better off arguing over who is to blame rather than arguing over what measures should be taken?

I've stated my solution to the problem. Education, by force, if necessary. As predicted the frothy progressives were not too happy but they are too busy engaging in whataboutery, hence why nothing will be done to solve the issue in reality.

Midlife

markodaly wrote: »

I've stated my solution to the problem. Education, by force, if necessary. As predicted the frothy progressives were not too happy but they are too busy engaging in whataboutery, hence why nothing will be done to solve the issue in reality.

Force is a bit strong but education, yeah great.

Unfortunatly, all measures specifically aimed to assist in traveller education were cut in 2011.

I don't think they were cut as part of a thing against travellers. It was just the downturn and things were cut all over the palce.

Personally, I'd do the same with travellers that i would with everyone. Education is mandatory and is linked to the children's allowance.

That wouldn't cost anything really.

markodaly

Midlife wrote: »

Personally, I'd do the same with travellers that i would with everyone. Education is mandatory and is linked to the children's allowance.

That wouldn't cost anything really.

I would agree with that as a first step. Target their allowances. If the kids are not going to school, then cut it. The parents will be banging down the school door once they find out they are losing money.

But that will be racist, so it will never happen.

Midlife

markodaly wrote: »

I would agree with that as a first step. Target their allowances. If the kids are not going to school, then cut it. The parents will be banging down the school door once they find out they are losing money.

But that will be racist, so it will never happen.

No because it won't just target travellers. Go to any impoverished area where there are a large number of unemployed and you'll find poor school attendance rates.

Tusla is massively understaffed. They basically only target students they feel they can make a difference with and just don't bother with loads that miss well over the required number of days.

This would seems a bit extreme to some but I really feel that if we have an education act that requires all children under 16 to attend school, then it's up to us, as a nation to enforce it.

There was a visiting teacher for traveller service which acted in many cases as a link between a settled school and the traveller community. This improved attendance rates in many cases but as mentioned, the service was cut in the downturn.

blanch152

demfad wrote: »

Again the report says that more cases of domestic violence occur in the traveller compared with the settled community but the report (not me, thats why I quoted it) also says:



This means that the options available to settled women are not available to traveller women. Disgusting that you are using domestic violence against women in the travelling community as a stick to beat every traveller including women and children. Shame on you. Move on.

That says particular ethnic minority communities, it doesn't say travellers, and it was written at a time when travellers were not considered to be an ethnic group.

I have never read such utter rubbish as your last paragraph. There is a huge cultural problem in the traveller community as regards women. That culture is one of taking girls out of school, marrying them off young, turning them into baby factories, keeping them in the home and subjecting them to domestic violence. That culture doesn't come from marginalisation, it doesn't come from the settled community, it comes from travellers themselves.

There are always apologists for these types of cultures. The content of your posts is running the risk of making you an apologist for the oppression of women. From African cultures that practice FGM to Islamic cultures that oppress women in many ways to the traveller community that systematically oppress women, I won't stop calling out unacceptable cultural attitudes to women wherever I see them.

FrancieBrady

Eric Cartman wrote: »

No we don't , its not middle Irelands fault, its not my fault, its nobody but the travellers themselves.

Oh course it is partly our fault. It is settled people who referred to the travelling community as 'a problem' when we began the campaign of forced assimilation back in the 60's. The government constantly referred to them as that and that there was 'no final solution'.
Look to the treatment of nationalists and Catholics on part of this island to compare.
99.9% of the time assimilation was attempted it was rejected by the settled community, and that only grew mistrust and prevented any buy in from travellers.
It was a case of 'keep telling a dog, it's a dog and eventually it will bite you'.

Same thing happened in the north and what we seen to end that amd to start the process of fixing it was the GFA, which is similar to SEMS, in that it is part of the aim to foster inclusiveness and parity of esteem.

That is not to deny that travellers have their part to play and that they too have being partly responsible and remiss.

RandomName2

oscarBravo wrote: »

Yeah, there was no point reading the rest of your post, frankly.

Well, that's a comprehensive and devastating takedown. Well argued, sir. Well argued.

demfad

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Im sorry but do you have any evidence at all that travellers were en masse abused in religious or industrial schools , let alone evidence that it happened more than settled children ? This just sounds like it was pulled out of the air.

I doubt it because travellers were not considered an ethnic minority in those days so difficult to collate those stats. People like you only like to categorise as travellers to falsely associate their ethnicity with wrongdoing. Yet when they are on the receiving end there is silence.

In living memory, State imposition of assimilation policies has been experienced. Various coercive methods were introduced to undermine Traveller culture and identity – resulting in many Travellers being ashamed of our cultural heritage.

Stories of children being beaten in school just for being Travellers is the legacy of this unspoken history. Let’s not forget the disproportionate numbers of Traveller children who were taken into care. Many of us were taken away from our families just for being born poor. The psycho-emotional impact of being called a “tar baby” or “dirt of the road” has left its scars.

Children who experienced emotional, psychological, sexual and physical violence in State care homes were left dislocated and isolated by not having the language to articulate what was done to us. Several generations of Travellers were put into special classes where the State curriculum was not taught to us. This segregation is now manifested in more subtle ways – in some schools Traveller children must take off their uniforms before they leave the school building. There is a continuous practice by psychologists to diagnose Traveller children with learning or intellectual disability.

There is a cohort of Travellers who experienced the visible acts of segregation with a yellow line in the school yard. Many Traveller children experienced physical violence and being ridiculed by being forced to have our hair checked for nits and then being showered.
https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/when-will-there-be-an-official-apology-to-the-traveller-community-1.3634335

markodaly

RandomName2 wrote: »

Well, that's a comprehensive and devastating takedown. Well argued, sir. Well argued.

I agree, when not only a few posts back he was scathing when someone replied back in the same fashion about an article.

Do as I say, not as I do.

demfad

Eric Cartman wrote: »

But there is nothing constructive we can do bar 0 tolerance policing and getting Tusla to literally drag all the children to school in the morning. The traveller community are doing nothing to fix the problem themselves.

I think travellers have suffered enough physical violence, abuse, humiliation and psychological damage at the hands of our educators and carers..dont you??

oscarBravo

demfad wrote: »

I think travellers have suffered enough physical violence, abuse, humiliation and psychological damage at the hands of our educators and carers..dont you??

No, he doesn't. It's abundantly clear that some people believe the answer is more violence, abuse and humiliation.

Eric Cartman

demfad wrote: »

I think travellers have suffered enough physical violence, abuse, humiliation and psychological damage at the hands of our educators and carers..dont you??

As did the settled community in the days talked about above , sure how many great irish films and books are about the abuse from the RCC against all of our youth up until the last 20 odd years,

What this doesnt explain is that firstly thats all gone , so sending travellers to schools is no longer going to result in that , but secondly what kind of solution was it on their part to withdraw their children from school en masse ,

What some posters seem to be painting a picture of is that travellers were at one point attending school at the same rate, then were all abused much worse than settled kids and thats why single digit percentages of travellers now even finish their junior cert. Thats just not the case ,

I wouldnt mind but for all the things travellers have asked for and protested for (ethnic recognition, more money, free stables, free houses etc..) theyve never asked for a school

RandomName2

oscarBravo wrote: »

No, he doesn't. It's abundantly clear that some people believe the answer is more violence, abuse and humiliation.

The straw man factory is in overdrive.

oscarBravo

RandomName2 wrote: »

The straw man factory is in overdrive.

Is it?

Eric Cartman wrote: »

...0 tolerance policing and getting Tusla to literally drag all the children to school in the morning.

markodaly wrote: »

[Traveller children] should be taken from their parents by force.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

What next is to have the gardai organise a policy of super vigilance around halting sites [...] ANPR cameras at the entrance to halting sites to check for stolen vehicles, CAB and Revenue getting special powers and protection from the ERU to search halting sites.

its about saying "It ends here , clean up your act, send your kids to school or you'll end up in prison for the rest of your life..."

markodaly wrote: »

Education, by force, if necessary.

markodaly wrote: »

Take the kids off them.

If that's the side of the argument to which you want to nail your colours, it's not exactly a surprise that you have nothing constructive to add to the discussion.

RandomName2

oscarBravo wrote: »

If that's the side of the argument to which you want to nail your colours, it's not exactly a surprise that you have nothing constructive to add to the discussion.

Because non-traveler parents have their kids taken off them. Not all of them of course, but typically the ones who don't provide any education to their children, which was the matter being discussed. You have already stated you don't believe in equal treatment though.

oscarBravo wrote: »

Sure: let's treat everybody equally, including disadvantaged minorities. What could possibly go wrong?

Wait, aren't the non-traveler families who have their kids taken off them usually disadvantaged? I'm probably giving this too much thought.

markodaly

As I said, nothing will change because our betters care more about their own vanity than educating underprivileged children in an attempt to break a cycle of poverty, violence, and crime.

oscarBravo

RandomName2 wrote: »

Because non-traveler parents have their kids taken off them. Not all of them of course, but typically the ones who don't provide any education to their children, which was the matter being discussed.

How many non-traveller children have been removed from their parents for lack of education?

You have already stated you don't believe in equal treatment though.

This might be a half-decent stab at misrepresenting me, if you didn't immediately go on to quote what I actually said, which is that disadvantaged minorities require special treatment.

Wait, aren't the non-traveler families who have their kids taken off them usually disadvantaged?

Sure. Are they usually disadvantaged ethnic minorities?

I'm probably giving this too much thought.

I think it's fair to say that too much thought is definitely not your problem.

oscarBravo

markodaly wrote: »

As I said, nothing will change because our betters care more about their own vanity than educating underprivileged children in an attempt to break a cycle of poverty, violence, and crime.

Yes, you've repeated that lofty sentiment a few times now to justify a policy of forcibly separating families.

markodaly

oscarBravo wrote: »

Yes, you've repeated that lofty sentiment a few times now to justify a policy of forcibly separating families.

Do you ever believe children should be taken from their parents OB? Say in the Dalky House of Horrors incident when the state failed those kids?

If you do, then you agree with me, but don't want to admit it to yourself because you think yourself a morally superior person than me.

oscarBravo

markodaly wrote: »

Do you ever believe children should be taken from their parents OB?

Of course. I also believe that it is in a child's best interests, wherever possible, to grow up with its family.

That's a difficult balancing act to which there should never be a glib answer. Simply demanding that children be forcibly separated from their parents is the usual knee-jerk response to a difficult problem: simple, obvious, and wrong.