Pittsburgh synagogue shooting

Gimme A Pound

Trump is obviously not anti Semitic but if someone is determined to believe he is, absolutely nothing will change their position. Not just opinions but facts that contradict their view.

Criticism of Soros - how the heck does that mean anti Semitism? Going by that logic, criticism of Pence = anti Christian.

Also there are plenty on the right who are very much opposed to anti Semitism - and on the left who are anti Semitic.

batgoat

nullzero wrote: »

Are you going to actively ignore the fact that Trump moved the American embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem?
Are you going to actively ignore his daughter converting to Judaism when she married her hawskishly Zionist husband?

The cheek of you using that type of language when you obviously don't have the first notion of what you're talking about.

You gonna say the same to Haaretz (an Israeli publication) that entirely agree that Trump has engaged in anti semetic rhetoric? You gonna ignore how he said there was decent people among the Neo Nazis and white supremacists in Charlottesville? So yeah, say "the cheek of you" as much as you want but it seems more like you're glossing over the dodgy behaviour and using the embassy as the be all and end all.


https://www.haaretz.com/amp/us-news/.premium-u-s-jews-despair-is-compounded-by-trump-s-complicity-and-netanyahu-s-hypocrisy-1.6595901

Jacoby Teeny Sinkhole wrote: »

Trump is obviously not anti Semitic but if someone is determined to believe he is, absolutely nothing will change their position. Not just opinions but facts that contradict their view.

Criticism of Soros - how the heck does that mean anti Semitism? Going by that logic, criticism of Pence = anti Christian.

Also there are plenty on the right who are very much opposed to anti Semitism - and on the left who are anti Semitic.

You are aware that they're not criticisms, they're conspiracies which includes the caravan conspiracy.. Not based on actual facts.... These sorts of conspiracies have resulted in the bomb that was sent to him earlier in the week.

nullzero

Jacoby Teeny Sinkhole wrote: »

Trump is obviously not anti Semitic but if someone is determined to believe he is, absolutely nothing will change their position. Not just opinions but facts that contradict their view.

Criticism of Soros - how the heck does that mean anti Semitism? Going by that logic, criticism of Pence = anti Christian.

Also there are plenty on the right who are very much opposed to anti Semitism - and on the left who are anti Semitic.

We're in a post fact era now I'm afraid.
Following populist rhetoric is the trendy thing to do these days.
I think Trump is a cretin but the notion that he's actively anti semitic is just extrapolated from the perception of him and his followers as being intolerant of everybody outside of their perceived social group.
Its just lazy an completely inaccurate.

Berserker

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Don’t forget the anti Semitic tendencies in the modern left, particularly in corbyn’s Labour.

Agree but Corbyn gets a very easy ride here in Ireland because of his pro-republican tendencies. People roll out Israel as an excuse for his language but there is an issue there.

steddyeddy wrote: »

It's Trump's attitudes towards gun culture which are to blame, not his attitudes towards Jews.

His attitude towards guns are nothing new in American culture. The US has had a gun culture issue for god knows how long now. To lay the blame at his door, for that, is foolish. Obama had a majority for a few years, plenty of time to do something about gun control if he really wanted but he chose not to. He latched onto it in later years in the hope of saving his political bacon.

steddyeddy wrote: »

I work in the states quite a bit. It's not as simple as loving Israel. I've heard Israeli supporting colleagues complain about percieved Jewish nepotism. It's a very confused nation.

Oh, I know that and I was just making the link between the two. I used to live in Texas and I fully appreciate the contradictions that exist between the two. Didn't want to go into it in more detail because you'd need a week to outline it all. One part of the relationship is the strong ties that devout Christians, the Evangelical Christian movement, from my experience, that's the point I was making. They travel en masse to Israel and woe betide you if you dare question Israel and it's actions. Everything that happens in Israel, from an Israeli perspective, is God's will, as I was told once. I used to work with a few Jewish people and the community is very, ahem, tight knit alright.

batgoat

nullzero wrote: »

We're in a post fact era now I'm afraid.
Following populist rhetoric is the trendy thing to do these days.
I think Trump is a cretin but the notion that he's actively anti semitic is just extrapolated from the perception of him and his followers as being intolerant of everybody outside of their perceived social group.
Its just lazy an completely inaccurate.

Can you clarify, do you think there were decent people among the Neo Nazis and White Supremacists in Charlottesville? Cause Trump did. There weren't... It would appear that you are the person avoiding facts.

nullzero

batgoat wrote: »

You gonna say the same to Haaretz (an Israeli publication) that entirely agree that Trump has engaged in anti semetic rhetoric? You gonna ignore how he said there was decent people among the Neo Nazis and white supremacists in Charlottesville? So yeah, say "the cheek of you" as much as you want but it seems more like you're glossing over the dodgy behaviour and using the embassy as the be all and end all.


https://www.haaretz.com/amp/us-news/.premium-u-s-jews-despair-is-compounded-by-trump-s-complicity-and-netanyahu-s-hypocrisy-1.6595901


You are aware that they're not criticisms, they're conspiracies which includes the caravan conspiracy.. Not based on actual facts.... These sorts of conspiracies have resulted in the bomb that was sent to him earlier in the week.

Trump IS the most openly Zionist president in living memory.
You obviously cannot comprehend the simple information provided to you.
Some magazine says Trump is anti semitic, then it must be true, never mind his Jewish daughter and son in law and his two fingers to Palestinians. Judge him by one publications opinion. Never mid the facts let's just jump on the bandwagon, describing facts as "glossing over" describes just how feeble your argument is.

I don't know what your obsession with conspiracies is but there's a forum for that stuff if you want to talk about it.

Berserker

batgoat wrote: »

Can you clarify, do you think there were decent people among the Neo Nazis and White Supremacists in Charlottesville? Cause Trump did. There weren't... It would appear that you are the person avoiding facts.

No, there were people to blame on both sides of Charlottesville, that's the point he was making.

There are two types of people in this thread.

"When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're sending people that have a lot of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."

"When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're sending people that have a lot of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. Their rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."


It happens with an awful lot of things that Trump says. If it could make him look decent, it's him just babbling. If it could make him look bad, it is gospel.

nullzero

batgoat wrote: »

Can you clarify, do you think there were decent people among the Neo Nazis and White Supremacists in Charlottesville? Cause Trump did. There weren't... It would appear that you are the person avoiding facts.

I'm not discussing that issue.
I'm not a Trump supporter, and white supremacist groups and neo nazis sicken me, as do any people who see themselves as superior to anybody. Racism, xenophobia, anti semitism etc are all wrong all the time, even when it's time to look at how Israel treats Palestinians(and yes I don't agree with Palestinian terrorism either before you start).

batgoat

Berserker wrote: »

No, there were people to blame on both sides of Charlottesville, that's the point he was making.

He specified decent people on both sides too.. And no, there was only one side to blame for the events that transpired which culminated in an actual decent person being murdered... You can rewrite his comments into a nuanced remark but it requires a complete rewrite of the event itself. That is completely dishonest.

quote="nullzero;108475425"]I'm not discussing that issue.
I'm not a Trump supporter, and white supremacist groups and neo nazis sicken me, as do any people who see themselves as superior to anybody. Racism, xenophobia, anti semitism etc are all wrong all the time, even when it's time to look at how Israel treats Palestinians(and yes I don't agree with Palestinian terrorism either before you start).[/quote]

Eh, that event is very much so relevant and was a pretty shameful moment in US history. It also involves the fact that those groups support him.

Celticfire

batgoat wrote: »

You gonna say the same to Haaretz (an Israeli publication) that entirely agree that Trump has engaged in anti semetic rhetoric? You gonna ignore how he said there was decent people among the Neo Nazis and white supremacists in Charlottesville? So yeah, say "the cheek of you" as much as you want but it seems more like you're glossing over the dodgy behaviour and using the embassy as the be all and end all.


https://www.haaretz.com/amp/us-news/.premium-u-s-jews-despair-is-compounded-by-trump-s-complicity-and-netanyahu-s-hypocrisy-1.6595901


You are aware that they're not criticisms, they're conspiracies which includes the caravan conspiracy.. Not based on actual facts.... These sorts of conspiracies have resulted in the bomb that was sent to him earlier in the week.

I got as far as the link under the website name...… "Relax, Trump wont put all the Jews in camps, only the Democrats"

nullzero

batgoat wrote: »

Can you clarify, do you think there were decent people among the Neo Nazis and White Supremacists in Charlottesville? Cause Trump did. There weren't... It would appear that you are the person avoiding facts.

To turn the tables on you a little, do you believe Palestinians are entitled to be treated with respect and have their human rights observed?

steddyeddy

A great article detailing the fact that Trump doesn't have a clue what anti-semitism is. Condeming it in name but giving it strenght in his actions e.g describing Nazis as "very fine people".



https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2018/10/28/trump-doesnt-understand-how-anti-semitism-works-neither-do-most-americans/

batgoat

Celticfire wrote: »

I got as far as the link under the website name...… "Relax, Trump wont put all the Jews in camps, only the Democrats"

The opinion piece about putting Mexican children in camps and separating them from their parents? Shocking that an Israeli publication happens to see parallels...


Anyway, it's clear that some posters think that were "fine people" among the Neo Nazis and white supremacists in Charlottesville... David Duke concurs with ye. Also a big Trump supporter btw.... Strange that!

nullzero wrote: »

To turn the tables on you a little, do you believe Palestinians are entitled to be treated with respect and have their human rights observed?

Yes very much so, in fact I'm very much so opposed to Israel's actions in Palestine. There were never fine people among the Neo Nazis or white supremacists in Charlottesville... This is the reality. It was a modern day klan rally.

nullzero

batgoat wrote: »

The opinion piece about putting Mexican children in camps and separating them from their parents? Shocking that an Israeli publication happens to see parallels...


Anyway, it's clear that some posters think that were "fine people" among the Neo Nazis and white supremacists in Charlottesville... David Duke concurs with ye. Also a big Trump supporter btw.... Strange that!



Yes very much so, in fact I'm very much so opposed to Israel's actions in Palestine. There were never fine people among the Neo Nazis or white supremacists in Charlottesville... This is the reality. It was a modern day klan rally.

As I said earlier I do jot support Trump or racist groups of any kind.

steddyeddy

Excellent article written by a Jewish writer for the WP. It details the anti-semetic abuse Trump supporters directed at him. Abuse which Trump refused to condemn. It details the anti-semetic imagary Trump aimed at the Democrats during the presidential election.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2018/10/28/how-much-responsibility-does-trump-bear-synagogue-shooting-pittsburgh/

nullzero

batgoat wrote: »

He specified decent people on both sides too.. And no, there was only one side to blame for the events that transpired which culminated in an actual decent person being murdered... You can rewrite his comments into a nuanced remark but it requires a complete rewrite of the event itself. That is completely dishonest.

quote="nullzero;108475425"]I'm not discussing that issue.
I'm not a Trump supporter, and white supremacist groups and neo nazis sicken me, as do any people who see themselves as superior to anybody. Racism, xenophobia, anti semitism etc are all wrong all the time, even when it's time to look at how Israel treats Palestinians(and yes I don't agree with Palestinian terrorism either before you start).

Eh, that event is very much so relevant and was a pretty shameful moment in US history. It also involves the fact that those groups support him.[/quote]

That event is not relevant to anything I had been discussing up to the point where you raised it.
Trump is demonstrably a Zionist, and he's also smart enough to know what his demographic is (his appearances on Alex Jones' show demonstrate this, a platform which purportedly never critisizes Israel either incidentally) and how to pander to them. He's playing both sides at once.

Berserker

batgoat wrote: »

He specified decent people on both sides too.. And no, there was only one side to blame for the events that transpired which culminated in an actual decent person being murdered...

Firstly, there's only one side to blame, in your mind. Anyone, who is in impartial can see that both sides were at fault. Secondly, is it not possible that there are decent people of a right minded tendency or are you going to paint them all with the same brush? Is everyone who leans to the right on any issue or anyone who dares question the left, a KKK loving ......

nullzero

steddyeddy wrote: »

Excellent article written by a Jewish writer for the WP. It details the anti-semetic abuse Trump supporters directed at him. Abude which Trump refused to condemn. It details the anti-semetic imagary Trump aimed at the Democrats during the presidential election.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2018/10/28/how-much-responsibility-does-trump-bear-synagogue-shooting-pittsburgh/

Did Trump himself direct this abuse at him?
Because we already know that racist idiots support Trump, and we also know that Trump is an avowed Zionist.

batgoat

nullzero wrote: »

That event is not relevant to anything I had been discussing up to the point where you raised it.
Trump is demonstrably a Zionist, and he's also smart enough to know what his demographic is (his appearances on Alex Jones' show demonstrate this, a platform which purportedly never critisizes Israel either incidentally) and how to pander to them. He's playing both sides at once.

Glossing over the event and his "globalist" catcalls... They're both relevant and to say they're not is pretty dishonest.

steddyeddy

nullzero wrote: »

Eh, that event is very much so relevant and was a pretty shameful moment in US history. It also involves the fact that those groups support him.

That event is not relevant to anything I had been discussing up to the point where you raised it.
Trump is demonstrably a Zionist, and he's also smart enough to know what his demographic is (his appearances on Alex Jones' show demonstrate this, a platform which purportedly never critisizes Israel either incidentally) and how to pander to them. He's playing both sides at once.[/quote]

He's also demonstrably a Sinn Fein supporter and an Anglophile. Getting the idea about Trump now?

steddyeddy

Berserker wrote: »

Firstly, there's only one side to blame, in your mind. Anyone, who is in impartial can see that both sides were at fault. Secondly, is it not possible that there are decent people of a right minded tendency or are you going to paint them all with the same brush? Is everyone who leans to the right on any issue or anyone who dares question the left, a KKK loving ......

Trump's grandfather was a member of the KKK incidently.

steddyeddy

Trump at SF fundraiser before London bombing.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/09/donald-trump-ireland-sinn-fein-terrorism

nullzero

batgoat wrote: »

Glossing over the event and his "globalist" catcalls... They're both relevant and to say they're not is pretty dishonest.

You're glossing over his affiliation to Judaism and his Demonstrably Zionist actions is more dishonest.

Celticfire

nullzero wrote: »

Did Trump himself direct this abuse at him?
Because we already know that racist idiots support Trump, and we also know that Trump is an avowed Zionist.

Careful now..... he also told a joke. Totally anti-Semitic.

Meanwhile real anti-Semites like Farrakhan don't get a look in.

nullzero

steddyeddy wrote: »

Trump at SF fundraiser before London bombing.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/09/donald-trump-ireland-sinn-fein-terrorism

Has anyone here even attempted to defend Trump?
He's Demonstrably a cretin.

Guys, stop wasting your time. It's the same people and the same shlt all over again. You're only making each other more entrenched in your opinions.

BoJack Horseman

steddyeddy wrote: »

Trump's grandfather was a member of the KKK incidently.

Everyone can be a member of the KKK if photshop deems it so

Berserker

steddyeddy wrote: »

Trump's grandfather was a member of the KKK incidently.

15% of the nation's eligible population, ~5m men, were members back in those days.

Odhinn

Arthur Daley wrote: »

Soros is a self proclaimed atheist

Anti-semites generally define jews as a "race", so George could turn catholic tommorrow and they'd still consider him a Jew. The "atheistic " Jew lowering moral standards is quite a common trope amongst the far right, in any event.

Celticfire

Odhinn wrote: »

Anti-semites generally define jews as a "race", so George could turn catholic tommorrow and they'd still consider him a Jew. The "atheistic " Jew lowering moral standards is quite a common trope amongst the far right, in any event.

So riddle me this, why is it then that if the likes of Soros is attacked in name only with no mention of race or religious background it is then used as an example of anti-Semitism by the left?

Anthracite

Berserker wrote: »

15% of the nation's eligible population, ~5m men, were members back in those days.

Well that's alright then.

Anthracite

Celticfire wrote: »

So riddle me this, why is it then that if the likes of Soros is attacked in name only with no mention of race or religious background it is then used as an example of anti-Semitism by the left?

You know what a dog whistle is, right?

If I attack 5 different Jewish people with Jewish tropes/conspiracy theories, I don't have to point out to the headbangers that 'hey, in case you didn't realise it, they are all Jews!'

Celticfire

Anthracite wrote: »

You know what a dog whistle is, right?

If I attack 5 different Jewish people with Jewish tropes/conspiracy theories, I don't have to point out to the headbangers that 'hey, in case you didn't realise it, they are all Jews!'

I didn't ask about 5 different Jews. Soros is an atheist. Jews as a race is supposedly something that only the far right believe. So how is it anti-Semitic to attack Soros and his policies? He's not Jewish.

Berserker

Anthracite wrote: »

Well that's alright then.

It is when you take the value system that was in place back then into account. I can think of a few things in Ireland that were alright back then that aren't nowadays.

manual_man

batgoat wrote: »

Can you clarify, do you think there were decent people among the Neo Nazis and White Supremacists in Charlottesville? Cause Trump did. There weren't... It would appear that you are the person avoiding facts.

I believe he was referring to all the people who were going to protest either for or against the taking down of statues, and who weren't aware that neo nazi groups were planning to hijack it.

I find it astonishing that any honest informed individual could believe otherwise, since for all the things that anybody might think about Trump, I don't believe there are many that think he is stupid. Understandably opposition politicians and some in media tried to fan the flames of fear for political and personal gain, and sadly a lot of people bought it.

It all goes back to Trump's election in 2016, and the refusal of many to actually try to understand what led the country to that point. Identity politics, pushing equality of outcome(destructive) as opposed to striving for equality of opportunity. Putting the group ahead of the individual (hence fostering tribalism). If the modern-day left hadn't become so corrupt and inherently divisive and destructive, then Trump never would have had a chance. Trump is the reaction, nay the REJECTION, of all of this. People have become so disgusted with what the left has morphed in to, that they were willing to give Donald Trump a chance. Just let that sink in

steddyeddy

Berserker wrote: »

It is when you take the value system that was in place back then into account. I can think of a few things in Ireland that were alright back then that aren't nowadays.

Indeed but lets not defend them!

Odhinn

Celticfire wrote: »

So riddle me this, why is it then that if the likes of Soros is attacked in name only with no mention of race or religious background it is then used as an example of anti-Semitism by the left?

Because the language used is that of anti-semitism and anti-semites. "globalist", "cultural marxism", the notion that he's trying to undermine 'the white race' - all far right beliefs about Jews over centuries.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2018/10/24/conspiracy-theories-about-soros-arent-just-false-theyre-anti-semitic/?utm_term=.84e5ac275bd2

Anthracite

Berserker wrote: »

It is when you take the value system that was in place back then into account. I can think of a few things in Ireland that were alright back then that aren't nowadays.

Right, but we don't say 'It was ok that Father Jimmy was a child rapist because 10% of the clergy were child rapists in those days'.

gw80

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Don’t forget the anti Semitic tendencies in the modern left, particularly in corbyn’s Labour.

Also we should all be wary of the use of words like globalists and even bankers. Often dog whistles. Then there’s anti Zionism.

Antisemitism is universal on the far right and unreconstructed left.

What's wrong with anti Zionism?

Anthracite

Celticfire wrote: »

I didn't ask about 5 different Jews. Soros is an atheist. Jews as a race is supposedly something that only the far right believe. So how is it anti-Semitic to attack Soros and his policies? He's not Jewish.

The problem isn't an individual criticism of Soros, which I guess is valid (although I'm not sure why - he seems to be trying to avoid the sort of disaster that caused the Holocaust he survived). The problem is the context in which dog-whistle attacks on the likes of prominent Jewish people like Soros take place.

nullzero

Anthracite wrote: »

The problem isn't an individual criticism of Soros, which I guess is valid (although I'm not sure why - he seems to be trying to avoid the sort of disaster that caused the Holocaust he survived). The problem is the context in which dog-whistle attacks on the likes of prominent Jewish people like Soros take place.

Soros describes himself as an atheist.
I like a lot of Irish people was raised a Catholic but no longer identity as such so like George Soros I would describe myself as an atheist.
Soros says his parents were uncomfortable with their religious roots and describes his household as "anti semitic".

The issue here isn't race, religion or ethnicity, rather it is people like you, looking in from the outside applying labels to people and getting offended on their behalf.
George Soros has a lot of critics but I've never seen him described as being primarily Jewish, people take issue with his worldview not the religion he never practiced.

Celticfire

Anthracite wrote: »

The problem isn't an individual criticism of Soros, which I guess is valid (although I'm not sure why - he seems to be trying to avoid the sort of disaster that caused the Holocaust he survived). The problem is the context in which dog-whistle attacks on the likes of prominent Jewish people like Soros take place.

But he's not Jewish. Prominent, controversial , yes..... but not Jewish.

Anthracite

nullzero wrote: »

Soros describes himself as an atheist.
I like a lot of Irish people was raised a Catholic but no longer identity as such so like George Soros I would describe myself as an atheist.
Soros says his parents were uncomfortable with their religious roots and describes his household as "anti semitic".

The issue here isn't race, religion or ethnicity, rather it is people like you, looking in from the outside applying labels to people and getting offended on their behalf.
George Soros has a lot of critics but I've never seen him described as being primarily Jewish, people take issue with his worldview not the religion he never practiced.

With all due respect, I suggest you take your idea that Soros is not Jewish and try to sell it to the conspiracy theorists and far right - you know, the people I'm actually talking about. Unless you think 'headbangers' is how I describe normal people with reasonable political beliefs?

Celticfire

Odhinn wrote: »

Anti-semites generally define jews as a "race", so George could turn catholic tommorrow and they'd still consider him a Jew. The "atheistic " Jew lowering moral standards is quite a common trope amongst the far right, in any event.

Anthracite wrote: »

With all due respect, I suggest you take your idea that Soros is not Jewish and try to sell it to the conspiracy theorists and far right - you know, the people I'm actually talking about. Unless you think 'headbangers' is how I describe normal people with reasonable political beliefs?

He's an atheist so that just leaves a racial element for you to consider him Jewish. Is the left the same as the far right in their definition of Jewishness defining Jews as a "race"

nullzero

Anthracite wrote: »

With all due respect, I suggest you take your idea that Soros is not Jewish and try to sell it to the conspiracy theorists and far right - you know, the people I'm actually talking about. Unless you think 'headbangers' is how I describe normal people with reasonable political beliefs?

What the hell are going on about?
I can't be held responsible for the beliefs of other people and their beliefs don't have any bearing on facts, facts which you conveniently sidestep and start waffling on about far right conspiracy theorists and all that nonsense.
How about you address the facts and leave your opinions out of the discussion?

Anthracite

nullzero wrote: »

What the hell are going on about?
I can't be held responsible for the beliefs of other people and their beliefs don't have any bearing on facts, facts which you conveniently sidestep and start waffling on about far right conspiracy theorists and all that nonsense.
How about you address the facts and leave your opinions out of the discussion?

I think you haven't really understood the discussion so I'd suggest you try reading the posts in context again. If you still don't understand, I'm not sure it can be further clarified for you so I wish you well. But just in case it helps, here's where this thread of the converstaion branched off:

Celticfire wrote: »

So riddle me this, why is it then that if the likes of Soros is attacked in name only with no mention of race or religious background it is then used as an example of anti-Semitism by the left?

If there are any especially complicated words or phrases there, I don't see them.

nullzero

Anthracite wrote: »

I think you haven't really understood the discussion so I'd suggest you try reading the posts in context again. If you still don't understand, I'm not sure it can be further clarified for you so I wish you well.

Wow, what a condescending post. I don't agree with you so I should stop posting, nice one.

Celticfire

Anthracite wrote: »

If there are any especially complicated words or phrases there, I don't see them.

Considering you didn't answer my last question I'll ask it again.

He's an atheist so that just leaves a racial element for you to consider him Jewish. Is the left the same as the far right in their definition of Jewishness defining Jews as a "race" ?

What criteria are you using to call him Jewish?

Anthracite

nullzero wrote: »

Wow, what a condescending post. I don't agree with you so I should stop posting, nice one.

I think you misunderstood again - I never said you should stop posting, but you're kind of making my point for me.