Nurburgring question

StereoSound

I'm bringing my car over to Germany for Christmas and while I'm there I'd like to trial the Nurburgring.

Who has has been on it and what are the rules on it?

If another driver crashed into me and wrecks my car, what happens there in terms of liability? Can they just drive off leaving me with a fecked car? I'm assuming my private car insurance will mean sweet feck all on the Nurburgring?

coylemj

StereoSound wrote: »

If another driver crashed into me and wrecks my car, what happens there in terms of liability? Can they just drive off leaving me with a fecked car?

Probably, yes. How do you see it otherwise? The cops won't investigate because it's a private racetrack. You will have signed all sorts of waivers beforehand so you can't claim against the track operators. The guy who crashed into you is probably a fork lift driver in a warehouse in Serbia. Even if he has insurance, it won't cover him on that track. Good luck claiming off anybody.

StereoSound wrote: »

I'm assuming my private car insurance will mean sweet feck all on the Nurburgring?

Assume no longer, it is most definitely the case. And in all probability, the other guy will have no cover either. My guess is that you will be on your own. If it's any consolation, the entry fee probably covers recovery of your wrecked car.

tossy

You don't sign anything before driving on it, it's classed as a public toll road and the German rules of the road apply.

It's mostly closed in winter though, it's in the mountains and can be underivable so check the dates before travelling, i've been there in summer and winter - it's not as much fun in winter but if you do get out on the track you'll have more space which is a good thing as a first timer.

There are plenty of sites with info, dates etc.

Tefral

You buy your ticket and drive up to the barrier, drive around a few cones and then all of a sudden your out into the open with basically anything with wheels and an engine will be flying around you.

If you crash there your liable for any damage to the Armco barriers and track closure. Its a definite case of you look after your own if someone tips into you. Any private insurance policy precludes driving on race tracks.

Its seriously good fun.

Rules are let the faster car overtake on the left! There will be plenty of 911's doing that.

porsche boy

StereoSound wrote:

I'm bringing my car over to Germany for Christmas and while I'm there I'd like to trial the Nurburgring.

What's your car???

StereoSound

porsche boy wrote: »

What's your car???

It's a 171' Octavia RS Combi with a DSG, I just got it last weekend. It's one of the faster cars I've owned @184bhp.

Wishbone Ash

coylemj wrote: »

... The guy who crashed into you is probably a fork lift driver in a warehouse in Serbia....

There's probably a competent Serbian fork lift driver out there worried about being creamed on the Nurburgring by a Irish holiday maker over for the Christmas in his Octavia RS.

punisher5112

vRS

bazz26

Sabina in a Transit van.

V8 Interceptor

coylemj wrote: »

It's a private racetrack.

I always thought it was a public road.

punisher5112

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

I always thought it was a public road.

It is. It's a toll road.

CiniO

It's a public tolled road, so unless it's closed for special event (which happens there often enough), everyone is allowed to drive there after paying the toll, and therefore every insurance policy issued in the EU must be valid there for third party cover at least. And yes - this applies to Irish insurers as well.

whippet

I did it a few months back - I was driving a german friend's classic Porsche. his insurance only covered 3rd party on the ring.

It is classified as a toll road open to the public and therefore rules of the road are in play. Only over take on the left.

I didn't hammer it around the track as it wasn't my car and I didn't know the track - you cover over the top of a hill and have no idea if the next bit is straight on, left or right - 73 corners to remember! While you are guessing a 20 year old corsa with a roll bar will go by you like you are stationary driven by someone who knows the track inside out.

It is a good idea to have a passenger keeping an eye out for traffic from behind .. so you can move out of the way in plenty of time.

It is an awesome experience and I wouldn't hesitate bringing my own car around it (if I had something worth bringing on it) .. however - don't go out thinking you are racing. go out to enjoy the experience of track and take in the beauty and history. The car porn is outrageous and you'll spend more time in the car park drinking coffee looking at exotic and classic metal talking crap with other drivers.

Apart from the risk of making a mistake on the track to have to consider factors like oil leaks - about 1 minute in to my first lap I spotted someone in the distance behind the armco waving their hands furiously and fortunately I slowed down in time as a UK reg Focus RS had just deposited every drop of it's fluid on the tarmac just before a bend. The focus was a little further a head in a cloud of smoke but the track was covered. It took a couple of miles to even get the confidence that the tired had any grip after that.

The track was then closed for about 90 mins while it was cleaned up. 90 mins of more coffee and car porn in the car park

Henry Ford III

CiniO wrote:

It's a public tolled road, so unless it's closed for special event (which happens there often enough), everyone is allowed to drive there after paying the toll, and therefore every insurance policy issued in the EU must be valid there for third party cover at least. And yes - this applies to Irish insurers as well.

You sure about that? Would the fact that the car is being used on a race track invalidate the cover?

blackwhite

Henry Ford III wrote: »

You sure about that? Would the fact that the car is being used on a race track invalidate the cover?

Legally, it's not a race track (and racing is actually forbidden there). It's a public toll-road.

Some insurance policies will have provisions in them specifically excluding the Nurburgring or blanket clauses which would capture the Nurburgring (i.e. "unrestricted toll roads", "roads which are used as race tracks", "only covers normal road driving", etc.); but unless the insurance policy includes a clause like this then it's a public road for the purposes of insurance.

If the policy includes provisions that exclude the Nurburgring, then the insurer (once it's an EU policy) is still required to pay out on 3rd party claims, but they may have the right to then try and pursue the insured driver for the costs (depending on the specific clause in the insurance policy).

Also worth noting that, unless it's an official track day there, the normal rules of 3rd party liability for Germany will apply. So if you cause an accident, any other drivers involved can try to pursue you (or your insurance) for damages.

Paddy@CIRL

punisher5112 wrote: »

vRS

It's only vRS in the UK, RS everywhere else.

---

OP, I've been a few times both in my own car and in others.

Your insurance won't cover you adequately once out on track. While it's technically a one way toll road during 'Tourist Days', it's still one of the most renowned circuits on earth. Some recovery agencies won't even pick you up within 50KMs of the circuit, either. You can however try and get specific trackday insurance to cover you (which I would personally recommend).

As said already, you can also be held liable for damage inflicted on the armco (€60.69 per meter), post replacement, fluid spills, vehicle recovery etc. Also, if you drop fluid on the track and cause someone else to have an accident, you could be liable for that too.

I'd agree with Whippet in how you approach doing a lap or two. Enjoy it, watch your mirrors, signal to overtaking cars that you see them and earn that sticker. It would be worth your while striking up a conversation with some of the locals to try and get a fast passenger lap as well.

When you're done, make sure you head to Pistenklause for a steak on a stone to celebrate!

porsche boy

StereoSound wrote:

It's a 171' Octavia RS Combi with a DSG, I just got it last weekend. It's one of the faster cars I've owned @184bhp.

That will be fun. Go, enjoy it, don't worry about lap times, the experience alone is what it's about. It's bucket list stuff for petrol heads.

Del2005

blackwhite wrote: »

Legally, it's not a race track (and racing is actually forbidden there). It's a public toll-road.

Some insurance policies will have provisions in them specifically excluding the Nurburgring or blanket clauses which would capture the Nurburgring (i.e. "unrestricted toll roads", "roads which are used as race tracks", "only covers normal road driving", etc.); but unless the insurance policy includes a clause like this then it's a public road for the purposes of insurance.

If the policy includes provisions that exclude the Nurburgring, then the insurer (once it's an EU policy) is still required to pay out on 3rd party claims, but they may have the right to then try and pursue the insured driver for the costs (depending on the specific clause in the insurance policy).

Also worth noting that, unless it's an official track day there, the normal rules of 3rd party liability for Germany will apply. So if you cause an accident, any other drivers involved can try to pursue you (or your insurance) for damages.

There's loads of roads in Ireland used as race tracks, mainly bike racing. If they had "roads which are used as race tracks" policy here a lot of people would be driving uninsured.

blackwhite

Del2005 wrote: »

There's loads of roads in Ireland used as race tracks, mainly bike racing. If they had "roads which are used as race tracks" policy here a lot of people would be driving uninsured.

It comes down to what you think you can argue in court ultimately!

A few years since I saw it, but I think it might have included a qualifier like "roads which are commonly used as race tracks"

Agreed that it's fairly vague, but I'd guess the intention was to give insurers a get-out for the likes of Nurburgring, as opposed to "ordinary" roads.

quadrifoglio verde

StereoSound wrote: »

I'm bringing my car over to Germany for Christmas and while I'm there I'd like to trial the Nurburgring.

Who has has been on it and what are the rules on it?

If another driver crashed into me and wrecks my car, what happens there in terms of liability? Can they just drive off leaving me with a fecked car? I'm assuming my private car insurance will mean sweet feck all on the Nurburgring?

Bad news op, the ring is closed from the end of next weekend until around March time.
Fantastic experience though, would certainly recommend

StereoSound

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

Bad news op, the ring is closed from the end of next weekend until around March time.
Fantastic experience though, would certainly recommend

That is a shame if true. I'll just drive the autobahn a few extra times instead :cool:

whippet

StereoSound wrote: »

That is a shame if true. I'll just drive the autobahn a few extra times instead :cool:

The autobahn isn’t all it cracked up to be .. where I was recently you’d get a unrestricted stretch and by the time the traffic eased off and you were ready to open up the restrictions came back. Also ... you’ll never be the quickest and you’ll just be in the way of the locals.

210kph in a 33 year old Porsche on the autobahn as a passenger scared the life out of me

bladespin

coylemj wrote: »

Probably, yes. How do you see it otherwise? The cops won't investigate because it's a private racetrack. You will have signed all sorts of waivers beforehand so you can't claim against the track operators.

This is based on what?

coylemj wrote: »

Assume no longer, it is most definitely the case. And in all probability, the other guy will have no cover either. My guess is that you will be on your own. If it's any consolation, the entry fee probably covers recovery of your wrecked car.

Which insurance company told you that???
]

zilog_jones

whippet wrote: »

I didn't hammer it around the track as it wasn't my car and I didn't know the track - you cover over the top of a hill and have no idea if the next bit is straight on, left or right - 73 corners to remember! While you are guessing a 20 year old corsa with a roll bar will go by you like you are stationary driven by someone who knows the track inside out.

The full Nordschleife is available in several racing sims, it would probably help a lot getting some experience with it virtually first.

whippet

zilog_jones wrote: »

The full Nordschleife is available in several racing sims, it would probably help a lot getting some experience with it virtually first.

you'd think !! I've done it plenty of times on the xbox ... in reality it is totally different.

The lad who's car I was using has done about 30 laps in the last two years .. he also has a cycling simulator hooked up to his bike as he was training for a 3 lap race of the course and still wasn't confident enough to flake it.

he obviously didn't want to damage his pride and joy .. but it takes 100's of laps to get confident.

whippet

coylemj wrote: »

The cops won't investigate because it's a private racetrack. You will have signed all sorts of waivers beforehand so you can't claim against the track operators.

you sign nothing before taking a lap .. you walk in to a portacabin near the entrance .. hand over your €25 per lap (on mid week tourist days) .. get a swipe card preloaded with the laps you paid for and you just drive up to the barrier and off you go.

coylemj

Del2005 wrote: »

There's loads of roads in Ireland used as race tracks, mainly bike racing. If they had "roads which are used as race tracks" policy here a lot of people would be driving uninsured.

The difference is that each of the Nurburgring tracks is a closed circuit. To drive on it, you leave the public highway and pay a 'toll' to drive around a loop.

Even though you are not racing, it would count as a 'trial' (because you cannot claim that you were driving from A to and your insurance would deny cover.

mgbgt1978

The difference is that any Road Races (Bikes) and Rallies/Hillclimbs (Cars) in Ireland take place on public roads which are the subject of a Road Closure Order for the Day of the event. This closes the road to Public Motor Traffic.
The 'ring (and you should know this Coylemj, aren't you in the Insurance game ?) is described by both Insurers, and Car Hire Companies, as an 'unrestricted Toll Road'.
It is definitely not a Race Track by any definition (except obviously when it is closed to the public).

blackwhite

coylemj wrote: »

The difference is that each of the Nurburgring tracks is a closed circuit. To drive on it, you leave the public highway and pay a 'toll' to drive around a loop.

Even though you are not racing, it would count as a 'trial' (because you cannot claim that you were driving from A to and your insurance would deny cover.

So long as the policy has a clause/restriction related to "normal road driving" or similar.

mgbgt1978

coylemj wrote: »

The difference is that each of the Nurburgring tracks is a closed circuit. To drive on it, you leave the public highway and pay a 'toll' to drive around a loop.

Even though you are not racing, it would count as a 'trial' (because you cannot claim that you were driving from A to B) and your insurance would deny cover.

What nonsense is this ?
Are you seriously suggesting that I can't jump into one of my classics (or any Car for that matter) and just 'go for a spin' ?
I actually have to have a reason for being on the road ?????:rolleyes:

coylemj

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

The 'ring .... is described by both Insurers, and Car Hire Companies, as an 'unrestricted Toll Road'.

So I can go to Germany, rent a Hertz car and p1ss around the Nurburgring to my heart's content?

And be fully covered by the rental insurance for third party and my excess policy for damage to the car?

mgbgt1978

Jesus wept. It's exactly the opposite. I was simply pointing out the precise Terminology used by Insurers and others to describe the 'ring. None of them use the Term 'Race Track', as it is not one.

Car Hire Companies specifically forbid the use of their Cars on any 'unrestricted Toll Road' to stop you from using their Cars on the 'ring. Most of the German Hire Companies use GPS Trackers in their Cars to specifically watch out for this.

It's possibly the only unrestricted toll road in Europe, hence the wording.


edit; after reading post #2 in this Thread I'd say you're well out of your depth here....Every single sentence was completely untrue.

whippet

It’s a Uk site .. but have a quick read .. might put to bed some questions and myths

http://nurburgring.org.uk/insurance.php

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

Something I've been looking at doing

But I'm going the way of hiring one of their cars for the track and something with poke.

I wouldn't find 180bhp particularly exciting, I'm actually amazed cars these days with engines around 2.0 are still only coming with 180.

But don't get me wrong, a Octavia/supeeb combi RS is a nice machine

punisher5112

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Something I've been looking at doing

But I'm going the way of hiring one of their cars for the track and something with poke.

I wouldn't find 180bhp particularly exciting, I'm actually amazed cars these days with engines around 2.0 are still only coming with 180.

But don't get me wrong, a Octavia/supeeb combi RS is a nice machine

Seat put out much more powerful engines.

I guess it's up to vw what they can sell.

CiniO

coylemj wrote: »

The difference is that each of the Nurburgring tracks is a closed circuit. To drive on it, you leave the public highway and pay a 'toll' to drive around a loop.

Even though you are not racing, it would count as a 'trial' (because you cannot claim that you were driving from A to and your insurance would deny cover.

I still don't get your arguments at all?

What if you joined M25 around London and kept driving around for 24h?
Would that count as "trial" as well just because you were not driving from A to B ?

Nonsense IMO.

CiniO

coylemj wrote: »

So I can go to Germany, rent a Hertz car and p1ss around the Nurburgring to my heart's content?

And be fully covered by the rental insurance for third party and my excess policy for damage to the car?

I'm sure you'd be still covered for third party in Hertz rental car.

However if going there is against rental conditions, then you could forget about any other type of cover.

sunnysoutheast

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Something I've been looking at doing

But I'm going the way of hiring one of their cars for the track and something with poke.

I wouldn't find 180bhp particularly exciting, I'm actually amazed cars these days with engines around 2.0 are still only coming with 180.

But don't get me wrong, a Octavia/supeeb combi RS is a nice machine

I'm looking at doing the same late summer next year. Bucket list and all that.

I've gone off the idea of taking my own car round. Seems like the insurance situation rules it out.

From a couple of people I've talked to who've done the car hire thing they've gone round in Suzuki Swifts and moved up to better cars later. Was pricey too.

blackwhite

CiniO wrote: »

I'm sure you'd be still covered for third party in Hertz rental car.

However if going there is against rental conditions, then you could forget about any other type of cover.

Hertz rental T&Cs expressly forbids their cars being taken around the ring.
Whilst 3rd party technically is in place (in so far as keeps the car road legal), the signed rental agreement gives Hertz and/or their insurers the right to pursue the driver for any and all costs incurred for accidents at Nurburgring. And they are in the habit of doing so.

So net effect is basically that you are not insured, and will have additional penalty charges for breach of rental terms as well.

TrailerBob

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

I'm looking at doing the same late summer next year. Bucket list and all that.

I've gone off the idea of taking my own car round. Seems like the insurance situation rules it out.

From a couple of people I've talked to who've done the car hire thing they've gone round in Suzuki Swifts and moved up to better cars later. Was pricey too.

I've been a couple of times and done it both ways. For me, I was happy to bring my own yoke around in full knowledge that if anything happens it's on me.. yes it's a risk, but that's part of the attraction in a way.

I have also rented a swift from Rent4Ring, and it wasn't that expensive for what you get. €340 for the car and 4 laps, that included fuel, laps and insurance. There's a hefty excess but again, I could live with it.

As for power.. I've said it before but it needs to be said again... If you have never been to the nurburgring before, then power is not the be all and end all. I had much more fun in the swift simply because I could drive it close to the limit and not get into any real bother. The reality is that the experience of lapping the ring is the real draw... Whether you do it in 11 minutes or 10, it doesn't really matter. Drive within your ability and it's the most fun you can have on 4 wheels.

mdebets

You also need to remember that if you are driving over 130km/h in Germany, you are automatically partially liable in case of an accident, even if it is 100% the other driver's fault.
The Nurburgring also can request a downpayment on any damage you have caused to the track in cash on the spot.

V8 Interceptor

Do they have a "you're taking the piss" attitude if some dude rocks up with a 60hp Yaris looking to do a lap?

TrailerBob

Nope... anything goes once it's road legal. I did 6 laps in a landcruiser.. albeit as fast as I could physically make the thing go without breaking it.

General rule is stay to the right and indicate right to show you are a slower vehicle for the faster cars.

mgbgt1978

As Bob says pretty much anything goes. I have seen Coaches, Motor homes, ancient Vespa scooters...even a couple of 1930's Classic Cars.
A lot of the locals turn up in fairly basic Hatchbacks, but with quite grippy Rubber (usually sourced from guys doing a particular Race Series and are finished with them....Yokohama AO48's, etc).


About a 3rd of the Cars on the Road would be fairly normal everyday stuff driven by people who just want to experience a drive around the Nurburgring.

Blazer

whippet wrote: »

Apart from the risk of making a mistake on the track to have to consider factors like oil leaks - about 1 minute in to my first lap I spotted someone in the distance behind the armco waving their hands furiously and fortunately I slowed down in time as a UK reg Focus RS had just deposited every drop of it's fluid on the tarmac just before a bend. The focus was a little further a head in a cloud of smoke but the track was covered. It took a couple of miles to even get the confidence that the tired had any grip after that.

The track was then closed for about 90 mins while it was cleaned up. 90 mins of more coffee and car porn in the car park

ouch..that cost him quite a bit...around €1900

https://drivetribe.com/p/the-nurburgring-crash-on-track-UFTZw-m5SoWDGWLEXzl8ZQ?iid=ba-96B8DSDSWFKKS1ev5VA

whippet

Blazer wrote: »

ouch..that cost him quite a bit...around €1900

https://drivetribe.com/p/the-nurburgring-crash-on-track-UFTZw-m5SoWDGWLEXzl8ZQ?iid=ba-96B8DSDSWFKKS1ev5VA

That would be peanuts as opposed to the cost of getting it back to the Uk and a new engine !

sunnysoutheast

blackwhite wrote: »

Hertz rental T&Cs expressly forbids their cars being taken around the ring.
Whilst 3rd party technically is in place (in so far as keeps the car road legal), the signed rental agreement gives Hertz and/or their insurers the right to pursue the driver for any and all costs incurred for accidents at Nurburgring. And they are in the habit of doing so.

So net effect is basically that you are not insured, and will have additional penalty charges for breach of rental terms as well.

Plus you'll be life banned from the hire company I think.

Micky 32

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Something I've been looking at doing

But I'm going the way of hiring one of their cars for the track and something with poke.

I wouldn't find 180bhp particularly exciting, I'm actually amazed cars these days with engines around 2.0 are still only coming with 180.

But don't get me wrong, a Octavia/supeeb combi RS is a nice machine

They might be only 180bhp because someone might only want that bhp. My VW 2.0 diesel with a slight tweek is nudging 300bhp.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

Micky 32 wrote: »

They might be only 180bhp because someone might only want that bhp. My VW 2.0 diesel with a slight tweek is nudging 300bhp.

I'm talking without a slight tweak, coming out of the factory standard they should be throwing better bhp figures considering what they can currently do with smaller engines

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

I'm talking without a slight tweak, coming out of the factory standard they should be throwing better bhp figures considering what they can currently do with smaller engines

But most people don’t want higher bhp and if they do they can buy the more powerful version. Most are far more concerned with fuel economy than bhp and the 180 is a good compromise between performance and economy for most people.

StereoSound

I'm planning to map my Octavia RS in the new year. It's 184 bhp standard from the factory but I've been told a map will bring that up to 200 bhp or close to it. Have to decide who to get the map done with. I don't want to effect the fuel economy too much on it though. It's already doing great so far. I don't want to blow the warranty either so I have to do some research before anyone touches it.