Replace APT Timer with Smart Control: Heatmiser SmartStat or other options?

godtabh

I have an old school APT timer in the garage beside a gas boiler.

The gas boiler is a combi one (so instant hot water, need to turn on for heat). I'm looking for a smart controller to turn on/off heating.

Not sure what my best options are. Some one has recommenced Heatmiser SmartStat. Any one use it?

Any other recommendations?

ted1

This one ? For free?

https://www.thehubcontroller.com

Stoner

Ted recommended a sonoff on my similar thread

TBH it's a great option to replace an apt timer very easy to connect and very cheap. It's a timer you adjust on your phone at under 10 euro

No stat though unless you use the wired 16 amp unit and that's not ideal.


If you have another IoT device that has temp up on IFTT the you can use that remote stat to turn on sonoff if it's too cold.

I used a smarthings multi sensor paired with the sonoff

Otherwise you are talking about spending about 60 to 200 on nest, heatmeiser, netatmo all better but the cost can't be ignored either.

But the sonoff will replace the APT timer functions completely.

godtabh

ted1 wrote: »

This one ? For free?

https://www.thehubcontroller.com

What's the catch? Fee hub and install and no fees

ted1

No idea just saw it this morning.

godtabh

ted1 wrote: »

No idea just saw it this morning.

seems to be a free government funded pilot scheme

bk

godtabh wrote: »

What's the catch? Fee hub and install and no fees

Probably related to the government SEAI grant that pays for smart heating control systems for homes built before 2007. They are trying to reduce peoples energy usage for environmental reasons. The various gas companies have similar deals based on the same scheme.

Looks like an interesting thermostat, but doesn't mention any integration with GH, Alexa, IFTTT, etc.

Reati

godtabh wrote: »

I have an old school APT timer in the garage beside a gas boiler.

The gas boiler is a combi one (so instant hot water, need to turn on for heat). I'm looking for a smart controller to turn on/off heating.

Not sure what my best options are. Some one has recommenced Heatmiser SmartStat. Any one use it?

Any other recommendations?

I've the heatmisers. Works a charm. I just set the times and temps and forget about it. If I need to change anything you can via the app or on stats themselves. Note to use the app you need a neohub from them that runs 120 pounds. I never bothered. I don't chance the temps enough. Newer ones have Google assistant support and ifttt I think.

john_doe.

I've been looking at this one lately

https://www.geniushub.co.uk


The starter kit from here would do the job and system can be expanded as needed over time.

https://www.geniushub.co.uk/products/

The app can be downloaded and you can sign up for a full demo here.
https://www.geniushub.co.uk/genius-app/

The demo is great allows you to fully see before you buy.

Also been looking at Tado, but I don't want to be reliant on cloud.
Maybe these are overkill for what you need.

godtabh

bk wrote: »

Probably related to the government SEAI grant that pays for smart heating control systems for homes built before 2007. They are trying to reduce peoples energy usage for environmental reasons. The various gas companies have similar deals based on the same scheme.

Looks like an interesting thermostat, but doesn't mention any integration with GH, Alexa, IFTTT, etc.

My wife read an article that’s says it’s compatiable with Alexa

listermint

If the sonoff 16amp with thermostat. Total cost 20 dollars

Have it few weeks now very happy with it control from everywhere. Works with Google home or Alexa.

Set times loop times

Great.

bk

john_doe. wrote: »

Also been looking at Tado, but I don't want to be reliant on cloud.

The above geniushub and all smart thermostats, rely on the cloud. It is fundamental to how all this works.

Though most should continue to work locally if the internet/cloud is down and that includes Tado.

godtabh wrote: »

My wife read an article that’s says it’s compatiable with Alexa

Yep, looks like it does after all:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hub-Controls-ltd-Controller/dp/B0758JNHKX

Weird, you'd think they would update their website with that info, it isn't mentioned anywhere on there which is where I checked.

I hope they will add GH and IFTTT too.

john_doe.

bk wrote: »

The above geniushub and all smart thermostats, rely on the cloud. It is fundamental to how all this works.

Though most should continue to work locally if the internet/cloud is down and that includes Tado.



Yep, looks like it does after all:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hub-Controls-ltd-Controller/dp/B0758JNHKX

Weird, you'd think they would update their website with that info, it isn't mentioned anywhere on there which is where I checked.

I hope they will add GH and IFTTT too.

The genius Hub is not cloud dependant. The logic is programmed into the controller itself. It's just a connection of zwave devices. The internet is just for remote access. Very different to how Tado operates.

bk

john_doe. wrote: »

The genius Hub is not cloud dependant. The logic is programmed into the controller itself. It's just a connection of zwave devices. The internet is just for remote access.

Thus it uses a cloud service. Any device that supports remote access, without you fiddling with static IP or Dynamic DNS services is a cloud device.

The fact that in order to activate you have to go to www.geniushub.co.uk/app as documented here https://docs.geniushub.co.uk/display/HS/9.+Logging+onto+the+Genius+Hub and enter a code from the bottom of the hub means that it is cloud based.

john_doe. wrote: »

Very different to how Tado operates.

Nope, exactly the same, the setup is even very similar. The logic for Tado and most smart thermostats, is stored locally on the controller:

https://support.tado.com/hc/en-gb/articles/207373166-What-happens-when-the-Internet-connection-is-temporarily-lost-Can-I-still-control-my-heating-or-air-conditioning-using-tado-

What happens when the Internet connection is temporarily lost? Can I still control my heating or air conditioning using tado°?

If the Internet connection is lost, control of your heating or air conditioning system is possible via the user interface on the device just as you are used to from a regular thermostat. No Internet connection just means that controlling your heating or air conditioning remotely via the mobile or web app is not possible during this time.

Now I do see one difference, the various devices are z-wave, so if geniushub went out of business and the hub part stopped working, then you could potentially hook the various devices up to a SmartThings hub or Home Assistant, or similar and probably cobble together some form of control. And that is nice, I'll give you that.

I do recognise most of the various components (TRVs, Thermostat, etc.) as being generic z-wave devices that you can buy off vesternet and folks have working with SmartThings etc. What this company has seemed to have done, is bring together these various z-wave devices into packages, along with their own z-wave hub where the logic is stored and built their own cloud service and app to support them.

A really interesting approach and good to see another option on the market, if you get it, let us know how it works out.

john_doe.

bk wrote: »

Thus it uses a cloud service. Any device that supports remote access, without you fiddling with static IP or Dynamic DNS services is a cloud device.

The fact that in order to activate you have to go to www.geniushub.co.uk/app as documented here https://docs.geniushub.co.uk/display/HS/9.+Logging+onto+the+Genius+Hub and enter a code from the bottom of the hub means that it is cloud based.




Nope, exactly the same, the setup is even very similar. The logic for Tado and most smart thermostats, is stored locally on the controller:

https://support.tado.com/hc/en-gb/articles/207373166-What-happens-when-the-Internet-connection-is-temporarily-lost-Can-I-still-control-my-heating-or-air-conditioning-using-tado-



Now I do see one difference, the various devices are z-wave, so if geniushub went out of business and the hub part stopped working, then you could potentially hook the various devices up to a SmartThings hub or Home Assistant, or similar and probably cobble together some form of control. And that is nice, I'll give you that.

I do recognise most of the various components (TRVs, Thermostat, etc.) as being generic z-wave devices that you can buy off vesternet and folks have working with SmartThings etc. What this company has seemed to have done, is bring together these various z-wave devices into packages, along with their own z-wave hub where the logic is stored and built their own cloud service and app to support them.

A really interesting approach and good to see another option on the market, if you get it, let us know how it works out.

I do think the level of control on cloud compared to TADO is different.

Does TADO allow the majority of functions to operate from app when internet is down?

"All of the data and intelligence of the Heat Genius system is stored on the Hub. We have chosen this over a cloud based system as this means that your system is safer from event such as loss of home internet connection. This means that if one of these events were to occur, the heating would continue to run as normal and allow for access to the system using the local Wi-Fi network.

The only features that would be lost in the event of not having internet connection; are remote support for the system from Genius Hub, the weather forecasting on the app and the automatic pre-heat feature (which warms the room up early so it is warm for the starting of the heating period, based on the external weather). The manual pre-heat feature would work as before."

bk

john_doe. wrote: »

I do think the level of control on cloud compared to TADO is different.

Does TADO allow the majority of functions to operate from app when internet is down?

"All of the data and intelligence of the Heat Genius system is stored on the Hub. We have chosen this over a cloud based system as this means that your system is safer from event such as loss of home internet connection. This means that if one of these events were to occur, the heating would continue to run as normal and allow for access to the system using the local Wi-Fi network.

The only features that would be lost in the event of not having internet connection; are remote support for the system from Genius Hub, the weather forecasting on the app and the automatic pre-heat feature (which warms the room up early so it is warm for the starting of the heating period, based on the external weather). The manual pre-heat feature would work as before."

Yes, 100% exactly the same. Pretty much all smart thermostats work this way, Nest, Hive, Netatmo, Tado, etc.

I can only think of one thermostat that was completely in the cloud and didn't work in the internet was down, I've forgotten the name of it now, probably gone out of business, at the time we discussed it on this forum, I'd recommended people not to touch a device like that.

People don't seem to really understand what the cloud is. Really it isn't anything fancy, it is just a server or servers sitting in a data center that your local device communicates with to use some functions. Of course your local device needs to have local storage and memory and CPU, etc. to communicate with the remote server. So it isn't difficult for the programming to be stored locally and makes sense to ensure a certain amount of reliability if the internet goes down.

No one wants to be stuck not being able to turn on your heating or lights if the internet goes down, that would just be silly.

Of course you lose some of the more advanced functionality when the internet goes down, remote access, app access (maybe), voice access, but you should still be able to do the basics, turn on/off, have the schedule still run, etc.

Netatmo, Tado, Philips Hue lights, Logitech Harmony Remotes, Yale Smart Alarm, etc. all continue to work fine in their basic mode when internet is down, I know cause I've tested them like this.

The only devices that stop working completely are Google Home and some IP cameras and both for understandable reasons.

BTW The tado actually looks to have more local control when internet is down then the above Genius hub, the Tado you can actually control a great deal via the local screen, while the genius hub thermostat looks very basic and just has heating on/off from what I can see. So it isn't anything special in this regard.

john_doe.

bk wrote: »

Yes, 100% exactly the same. Pretty much all smart thermostats work this way, Nest, Hive, Netatmo, Tado, etc.

I can only think of one thermostat that was completely in the cloud and didn't work in the internet was down, I've forgotten the name of it now, probably gone out of business, at the time we discussed it on this forum, I'd recommended people not to touch a device like that.

People don't seem to really understand what the cloud is. Really it isn't anything fancy, it is just a server or servers sitting in a data center that your local device communicates with to use some functions. Of course your local device needs to have local storage and memory and CPU, etc. to communicate with the remote server. So it isn't difficult for the programming to be stored locally and makes sense to ensure a certain amount of reliability if the internet goes down.

No one wants to be stuck not being able to turn on your heating or lights if the internet goes down, that would just be silly.

Of course you lose some of the more advanced functionality when the internet goes down, remote access, app access (maybe), voice access, but you should still be able to do the basics, turn on/off, have the schedule still run, etc.

Netatmo, Tado, Philips Hue lights, Logitech Harmony Remotes, Yale Smart Alarm, etc. all continue to work fine in their basic mode when internet is down, I know cause I've tested them like this.

The only devices that stop working completely are Google Home and some IP cameras and both for understandable reasons.

BTW The tado actually looks to have more local control when internet is down then the above Genius hub, the Tado you can actually control a great deal via the local screen, while the genius hub thermostat looks very basic and just has heating on/off from what I can see. So it isn't anything special in this regard.

Hi- the feedback from users of the Heatgenius is that it allows you to use the majority of the apps functionality on your smart phone when internet is down, bar remote support and some others like external weather. You don't need to use the thermostat if internet is down.

Does the TADO allow use of majority of functions on phone when there is no internet connectivity?

bk

john_doe. wrote: »

Hi- the feedback from users of the Heatgenius is that it allows you to use the majority of the apps functionality on your smart phone when internet is down, bar remote support and some others like external weather. You don't need to use the thermostat if internet is down.

That is a good design for the app. Philips Hue bridge works in the same way.

Note that your wifi needs to be working and your phone locally connected to the same wifi for this sort of thing to work.

john_doe. wrote: »

Does the TADO allow use of majority of functions on phone when there is no internet connectivity?

I'm not sure, I've Netatmo. Someone with Tado would need to disconnect their internet, but keep wifi up to test it. Going by the Tado docs, I'd guess it doesn't work.

However you still have full local control via the physical interface via the Tado thermostat. It would come down to personal preference whether your prefer local app control or local physical control. The app one is certainly nice, but I tend to prefer physical as the backup. Best is probably to have both, like Hue.

john_doe.

bk wrote: »

That is a good design for the app. Philips Hue bridge works in the same way.

Note that your wifi needs to be working and your phone locally connected to the same wifi for this sort of thing to work.



I'm not sure, I've Netatmo. Someone with Tado would need to disconnect their internet, but keep wifi up to test it. Going by the Tado docs, I'd guess it doesn't work.

However you still have full local control via the physical interface via the Tado thermostat. It would come down to personal preference whether your prefer local app control or local physical control. The app one is certainly nice, but I tend to prefer physical as the backup. Best is probably to have both, like Hue.

Ya , I like the design of the GeniusHub, good redundancy trough the app if internet goes down and if they go bust they are only zwave devices .

My internet does drop out as it's line of sight, my router very rarely would .

The GeniusHub app is also very impressive and has a lot of features. What isn't clear to me was
If the hot water temperature be displayed in the App and if the TRVs measure the actual ambient room temperature or is an external sensor required.

What's putting me off GeniusHub right now is two things :

1.) I asked their support questions above over two weeks ago and no one came back to me
2.) It seems the same cost as an Evohome and Evohome seems to be very highly rated and used more

Does the netamo work with any external sensors for rads that are stuck behind furniture and curtains or do you need a thermostat if that was case in room ?

bk

john_doe. wrote: »

Does the netamo work with any external sensors for rads that are stuck behind furniture and curtains or do you need a thermostat if that was case in room ?

Well I wouldn't recommend Netatmo for your use case, it sounds like you need hotwater control, which Netatmo doesn't do.

You should double check, but I think Tado can be setup with a wireless thermostat in each room acting as an external sensor all connected to one Extension Kit:

https://support.tado.com/hc/en-gb/articles/206633885-Which-devices-do-I-need-to-control-multiple-rooms-separately-with-tado-

Wouldn't be cheap though.

You could possibly cobble something together using SmartThings or HomeAssistant using temperature sensors, but might be a bit complicated to setup.

I assume you know that rads behind furniture and in particular behind curtains/near windows is not good.