Taken Down [RTE]

The two guards in the brothel was absolutely appalling stuff altogether. Keystone cops. Of course the women are somehow the efficient cops and the men are all clumsy.....hmmm :rolleyes: No agenda there

The Udenses from Fair City are Sidney Potier and Morgan Freeman compared to some of the black actors in this mess. Toby is about the best of them

EdgeCase

There is an issue with scale and also exportability.

I find one this with Irish dramas is they load on EXTREMELY strong usually Dublin accents, which most of us can understand and Dubliners think are neutral. Outside of Ireland they might as well be speaking Dutch.

Americans will watch American strong accents - the Wire etc but if it's something from Ireland, Scotland, New Zealand etc and the accents are challenging, it's suddenly in "obscure overseas drama" category.

Even the UK market can be put off by very strong regional accents, including their own ones.

In the states even strong London accents can be totally unintelligible to Americans and they need subtitles and even with those they're lost sometimes due to slang.

I'm not saying neutralise and remove Irish accents, just remember that ultra strong accents may kill export potential and you can do characters without going into absolutely thick accent mode.

Half the time in Irish dramas they're also put on so heavily that it's almost unrealistic stage Dublin anyway.

I also don't know why more of our shows aren't exported to dubbed markets. They're watchable enough to be dubbed into French or Spanish etc

"Im going t'give ya an aul lash" says Gar (Git)......A true romantic :rolleyes:

The Late Late Show

Deleted User wrote: »

"Im going t'give ya an aul lash" says Gar (Git)......A true romantic :rolleyes:

I WISH it was Git not Gar! Season 3 of Love/Hate was the business.

sabat

You'd think Love/Hate was the Irish equivalent of The Sopranos or The Wire from some comments here. The truth is it was like a copy of the Sunday World turned into a TV show- it had just the right blend of familiarity and action to entertain the public and that's about it. The scripting ranged from just about competent to atrocious and the majority of the acting was amateurish. That said, the episode where Git gets killed as the night spirals out of control was superb.

EdgeCase

Small pool of TV actors here though. You end up getting a lot of people with relatively little TV / film experience and a lot of what looks a too much like stage.

We could do with investing money in training actors for TV by actually funding more drama and production.

sabat

sabat wrote: »

You'd think Love/Hate was the Irish equivalent of The Sopranos or The Wire from some comments here. The truth is it was like a copy of the Sunday World turned into a TV show- it had just the right blend of familiarity and action to entertain the public and that's about it. The scripting ranged from just about competent to atrocious and the majority of the acting was amateurish. That said, the episode where Git gets killed as the night spirals out of control was superb.

I dont think anyone who seen either drama would even contemplate the comparision. It was a decent show to be fair but i think the second and third season were the best. The rest was only ok

The Late Late Show

The Late Late Show wrote: »

I WISH it was Git not Gar! Season 3 of Love/Hate was the business.

Luckily Tommy wasnt on the golf course when Gar/Git was losing the rag tonight or he'd have had the opportunity to get his revenge

The Late Late Show

sabat wrote: »

You'd think Love/Hate was the Irish equivalent of The Sopranos or The Wire from some comments here. The truth is it was like a copy of the Sunday World turned into a TV show- it had just the right blend of familiarity and action to entertain the public and that's about it. The scripting ranged from just about competent to atrocious and the majority of the acting was amateurish. That said, the episode where Git gets killed as the night spirals out of control was superb.

Love/Hate is something I can watch over and over like The Sopranos, The Handmaid's Tale, Breaking Bad, Miami Vice, etc. Taken Down is just watchable at best. Do not see any other quality Irish crime dramas apart from Love/Hate.

RabbleRouser2k

EdgeCase wrote: »

There is an issue with scale and also exportability.

I find one this with Irish dramas is they load on EXTREMELY strong usually Dublin accents, which most of us can understand and Dubliners think are neutral. Outside of Ireland they might as well be speaking Dutch.

Americans will watch American strong accents - the Wire etc but if it's something from Ireland, Scotland, New Zealand etc and the accents are challenging, it's suddenly in "obscure overseas drama" category.

Even the UK market can be put off by very strong regional accents, including their own ones.

In the states even strong London accents can be totally unintelligible to Americans and they need subtitles and even with those they're lost sometimes due to slang.

I'm not saying neutralise and remove Irish accents, just remember that ultra strong accents may kill export potential and you can do characters without going into absolutely thick accent mode.

Half the time in Irish dramas they're also put on so heavily that it's almost unrealistic stage Dublin anyway.

I also don't know why more of our shows aren't exported to dubbed markets. They're watchable enough to be dubbed into French or Spanish etc

And the Dublin accent can grate on the ears after a short spell. I always find it grates on my ears after about ten minutes or so-has been that way due to the over abundance of the accent on bloody everything.
(Yeah, sorry not sorry and other over used platitudes).

I kept my word, didn't watch Taken Down-and instead spoke to my mum, who gave me the synopsis of 'it wasn't good'. She'll often sit through most shows or movies without any complaint. But if she has no interest in something, it's a warning sign.

Sadly, I think they will try and do a season 2. This feels largely like the Jack Taylor series that Tv3 (Now VM1) made, and keeps reairing. That was largely comical too (stuff like school bombers, same dodgy depiction of the guards).

People keep blaming RTE for messing with the show-I don't think it is. I genuinely think the writing was off from the beginning.

EdgeCase wrote: »

Small pool of TV actors here though. You end up getting a lot of people with relatively little TV / film experience and a lot of what looks a too much like stage.

We could do with investing money in training actors for TV by actually funding more drama and production.

A bad carpenter blames their tools. It's up to the actors to want to improve, as well as direction, as well as a good script. If the actor isn't giving their best, then the director has to turn around and tell them their work is not up to snuff.
I mean Saoirse Ronan has two Oscar nominations under her belt, but her only training comes by way of her work in film, some stage school stuff, and her dad's training
There's been some appalling actors on TV here in Ireland (Johnny Connors is hailed as one of our better actors-and yet he couldn't act his way out of a Fair City promo. Amy Huberman can't get any acting gigs outside of Ireland, and now Laura Whitmore is 'an actress'... can't imagine what it's like for anyone trying to get gigs who see that crap going on).

rob316

sabat wrote: »

You'd think Love/Hate was the Irish equivalent of The Sopranos or The Wire from some comments here. The truth is it was like a copy of the Sunday World turned into a TV show- it had just the right blend of familiarity and action to entertain the public and that's about it. The scripting ranged from just about competent to atrocious and the majority of the acting was amateurish. That said, the episode where Git gets killed as the night spirals out of control was superb.

Love/Hate I could watch over again and I have. So many good characters and quotable lines.

The Late Late Show

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

I kept my word, didn't watch Taken Down-and instead spoke to my mum, who gave me the synopsis of 'it wasn't good'. She'll often sit through most shows or movies without any complaint. But if she has no interest in something, it's a warning sign.

Sadly, I think they will try and do a season 2. This feels largely like the Jack Taylor series that Tv3 (Now VM1) made, and keeps reairing. That was largely comical too (stuff like school bombers, same dodgy depiction of the guards).

People keep blaming RTE for messing with the show-I don't think it is. I genuinely think the writing was off from the beginning.

A bad carpenter blames their tools. It's up to the actors to want to improve, as well as direction, as well as a good script. If the actor isn't giving their best, then the director has to turn around and tell them their work is not up to snuff.
I mean Saoirse Ronan has two Oscar nominations under her belt, but her only training comes by way of her work in film, some stage school stuff, and her dad's training
There's been some appalling actors on TV here in Ireland (Johnny Connors is hailed as one of our better actors-and yet he couldn't act his way out of a Fair City promo. Amy Huberman can't get any acting gigs outside of Ireland, and now Laura Whitmore is 'an actress'... can't imagine what it's like for anyone trying to get gigs who see that crap going on).

Same here. Did not watch it either but have heard most people I met who did watch it say once again not much happened. This thing does not deserve a series 2. I was looking forward to a few DVDs for Christmas and it would be nice to have had this one as a good Irish drama but alas no.

I most certainly blame RTE and its tame agenda for a lot of what is going on. Sure, the story was probably off from the beginning because the writers KNEW they had to come up with something tame to suit modern RTE's anti-Love/Hate pro-Striking Out agenda. Rebellion, Striking Out, Taken Down, Finding Joy and other 2015-2018 RTE dramas ALL suffer from the same thing: tame, inoffensive storylines and poorly cast actors. The nepotism in RTE is massive: Amy Huberman and other RTE 'darlings' will get roles which they often are not at all suited for. Lynn Rafferty as the cop in Taken Down is a prime example.

Ireland's entertainment scene in general is dominated by nepotism which puts a who you know emphasis over talent. Amy Huberman has been pushed at us via an RTE promoted comeback via a string of poor dramas none of which is memorable. Lynn Rafferty sees herself wanting some of that action too and as said before, her role as Aideen in Love/Hate was what she was suited for. She is best suited as a support actor not a main character. Aideen was a minor non-offensive character who was never one of the characters we talked about when discussing that show.

Imhof Tank

I think its quite good and getting better by the episode.

@ Late Late, there is such as thing as implied menace you know. A good example i thought was the scene when the lads talk in the bar and the Wayne guy is acting all nervous over the guards quizzing Abene and Git is just chill, then Wayne just goes "yeah, they were in there a good half hour 'n anyways" and that changes the whole meaning of what they are discussing. You don't need to hear Git reply oh really, I wonder if she was informing on us and what should we do. That's all unspoken.

The cleaning of the wine stain on the carpet was another example, I thought it was actually more sinister to hint at what had gone on in the room than to just show a fight scene.

And it was Nadine not Aideen in Love/Hate, surprised you got that wrong as such a fanatic

dartboardio

VeVeX wrote: »

So we cant make a good TV show because Ireland is a small country?

We are fed mediocre crap because it'll do, it'll do for most people especially those with the small country mentality. Its what has RTE the cesspool of over paid talentless gobshítes that it is. Because ok is deemed to be ok. We are happy with subpar rubbish because Ireland is a small country, bollocks to that.

Awful isn’t it, bollocks to that yup yup I agree but hey it’s the reality of it!

The Late Late Show

Another person I was just talking to there also noted that episode 4 was just ok and nothing much in it and was like episode 3. As already said, episodes like this are common in midseason but this series had 1 ok and 1 poor episodes before 2 mediocre filler episodes.

My friend did mention that Love/Hate was very good and also mentioned a drama called Making The Cut and DDU as being not as good as Love/Hate but being decent as well. Looked it up and Sean McGinley (Tony the IRA man in Love/Hate) is the lead actor so it must be good. He also was in Family playing a domestic abuser called Charlo. That was a great series too.

Striking Out was almost as bad as The Big Bow Wow, RTE's worst ever crime drama. Taken Down is superior to both of these but only just. In an era when TV series are arguably in their greatest time, RTE should be making something better. With the latest series of many of the top dramas coming out on DVD for Christmas, the DVD release of Taken Down and Finding Joy will be among the poorer sellers. It is time for RTE to up their ante and produce decent TV like they did with Love/Hate, Family, Strumpet City and others. There was also a good version of Amongst Women (John McGahern book) but am unsure if RTE did this or not.

hatrickpatrick

Deleted User wrote: »

The two guards in the brothel was absolutely appalling stuff altogether. Keystone cops. Of course the women are somehow the efficient cops and the men are all clumsy.....hmmm :rolleyes: No agenda there

I tried so, so hard to tell myself from episode one that this was unconscious bias on my part since we've had so much "men bad, women good" bullsh!t rammed down our throats in the world of fictional TV over the last two years, but somewhere between last week, with all the male Gardai whooping at the CCTV footage before being given a dressing down, and this week with the brothel scenes featuring the same Gardai, it's become very clear that this is an intentional setup.

Doesn't necessarily make the storyline boring, but it's again a grating and jarring "this is not fiction, we're trying to send a message!" element which is just something that really pisses me off in fiction in general. I consume fiction to get away from the thunderdome of real-life political debate and culture wars, FFS.

I don't think it would seem as jarring (those two Gardai's bumbling could actually be funny comic relief) if it wasn't coming hot on the heels of Acceptable Risk (which followed the exact same trope, all the male characters - even the deceased at the centre of the mystery - turning out to be scumbags in one way or another) and the final season of House of Cards, which needs no introduction here. We're already getting bombarded on a weekly basis with this kind of propaganda in the mainstream media, even the Irish Times and other formerly respectable outlets, do we have to cede fictional drama to it as well?

The funny thing is, they could actually make the drama more interesting and give some of our incredible female actresses more interesting roles if they cast some female villains, or even better, some female turncoats who you think are the heroines until a plot twist reveals otherwise. But the gender divide between who are the goodies and who are the baddies is too blatant to be ignored, unfortunately.

Redneck Culchie

It's feminist garbage we see 24/7 on RTE. No surprise the quality on RTE went downhill. Just shoving it in your face at this stage.

RabbleRouser2k

The Late Late Show wrote: »

Striking Out was almost as bad as The Big Bow Wow, RTE's worst ever crime drama. Taken Down is superior to both of these but only just. In an era when TV series are arguably in their greatest time, RTE should be making something better. With the latest series of many of the top dramas coming out on DVD for Christmas, the DVD release of Taken Down and Finding Joy will be among the poorer sellers. It is time for RTE to up their ante and produce decent TV like they did with Love/Hate, Family, Strumpet City and others. There was also a good version of Amongst Women (John McGahern book) but am unsure if RTE did this or not.

I don't think Big Bow Wow was a crime drama-it was meant to be a 'hip, modern' Irish drama that instead was a load of old cack. I remember the only paper that gave it a good review was The Sunday World-only because Amanda Brunker was in one of the episodes...and she worked there at the time.

I had no memory of Making the Cut, or DDU-had to look it up and found an incomplete episode on youtube. It didn't have a great rating on Imdb. And it looks really, really slow.
Seems to suffer similar issues that RTE have now.

Amongst Women was a BBC/ Irish Film Board production, so no interference from RTE. That was an interesting series-the daughters were 'polluted' by their father's influence, the son's were traumatised by his deranged and abusive nature.

Another underrated and underappreciated show that was absolutely rivetting was 'My Mother and Other strangers' (it's from 2016). It was a BBC production, cost about 7 million pounds sterling, and was made with an American, British, and Irish cast. I swear, it wrangled every penny out of its production, because every part of it was incredibly well acted and wonderfully shot.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I tried so, so hard to tell myself from episode one that this was unconscious bias on my part since we've had so much "men bad, women good" bullsh!t rammed down our throats in the world of fictional TV over the last two years, but somewhere between last week, with all the male Gardai whooping at the CCTV footage before being given a dressing down, and this week with the brothel scenes featuring the same Gardai, it's become very clear that this is an intentional setup.

The funny thing is, they could actually make the drama more interesting and give some of our incredible female actresses more interesting roles if they cast some female villains, or even better, some female turncoats who you think are the heroines until a plot twist reveals otherwise. But the gender divide between who are the goodies and who are the baddies is too blatant to be ignored, unfortunately.

I agree-there's this 'make guys dunderheads' in order to make the lead female look better-but usually it makes neither look good. (I haven't seen it-but The Last Jedi suffered similarly). Go and watch movies which are praised for their lead female hero being kick butt (Aliens, Terminator, to name a few) and you'll see that the male heroes aren't depicted as dumb @$$es, but rather as capable individuals who are well written.
Not seeing that lately.

I don't know if folks remember 'Proof'-not many people do (it's barely remembered as one of Saoirse Ronan's earliest roles). But that was a show that was comically overwritten. Everyone had drama-even the darn dinner was a plot point. (I'm not even joking-one line of dialogue went 'What's for dinner?' 'Roast Pork' 'I thought we were having Beef?'. *Cue sigh, and whole load of intrigue as to why there is no pork dinner*). I had thought the days of Proof were behind us, but the writing on Taken Down, as well as other RTE shows, shows this to be far from true.

It would be intelligent writing to have a female villain-but that's largely the issue with the show that happened far before it began filming...and which I don't blame on RTE. There's not intelligent writing. There's too much 'fellas are awful rape, drug dealing monsters, and the poor women are victims-defenseless against the monstrous cisgender heterosexual white man'.

The Late Late Show

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I tried so, so hard to tell myself from episode one that this was unconscious bias on my part since we've had so much "men bad, women good" bullsh!t rammed down our throats in the world of fictional TV over the last two years, but somewhere between last week, with all the male Gardai whooping at the CCTV footage before being given a dressing down, and this week with the brothel scenes featuring the same Gardai, it's become very clear that this is an intentional setup.

Doesn't necessarily make the storyline boring, but it's again a grating and jarring "this is not fiction, we're trying to send a message!" element which is just something that really pisses me off in fiction in general. I consume fiction to get away from the thunderdome of real-life political debate and culture wars, FFS.

I don't think it would seem as jarring (those two Gardai's bumbling could actually be funny comic relief) if it wasn't coming hot on the heels of Acceptable Risk (which followed the exact same trope, all the male characters - even the deceased at the centre of the mystery - turning out to be scumbags in one way or another) and the final season of House of Cards, which needs no introduction here. We're already getting bombarded on a weekly basis with this kind of propaganda in the mainstream media, even the Irish Times and other formerly respectable outlets, do we have to cede fictional drama to it as well?

The funny thing is, they could actually make the drama more interesting and give some of our incredible female actresses more interesting roles if they cast some female villains, or even better, some female turncoats who you think are the heroines until a plot twist reveals otherwise. But the gender divide between who are the goodies and who are the baddies is too blatant to be ignored, unfortunately.

All the Gardai characters both male and female in Taken Down are unlikeable. Such an uninteresting set of lead characters we see in dramas on RTE in the last 4 years. Lynn Rafferty's character is just Tara from Striking Out in the Gardai.

These tame dramas do not get most of the population interested. I do not think they serve any purpose and most certainly will not generate large DVD sales.

Redneck Culchie wrote: »

It's feminist garbage we see 24/7 on RTE. No surprise the quality on RTE went downhill. Just shoving it in your face at this stage.

It is 100% garbage and an insult to the licence payer. If RTE's idea of 'feminist drama' is making all female characters look like Amy Huberman's Tara, then it is ironically misogynist drama.

The Late Late Show

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

I don't think Big Bow Wow was a crime drama-it was meant to be a 'hip, modern' Irish drama that instead was a load of old cack. I remember the only paper that gave it a good review was The Sunday World-only because Amanda Brunker was in one of the episodes...and she worked there at the time.

I had no memory of Making the Cut, or DDU-had to look it up and found an incomplete episode on youtube. It didn't have a great rating on Imdb. And it looks really, really slow.
Seems to suffer similar issues that RTE have now.

Amongst Women was a BBC/ Irish Film Board production, so no interference from RTE. That was an interesting series-the daughters were 'polluted' by their father's influence, the son's were traumatised by his deranged and abusive nature.

Another underrated and underappreciated show that was absolutely rivetting was 'My Mother and Other strangers' (it's from 2016). It was a BBC production, cost about 7 million pounds sterling, and was made with an American, British, and Irish cast. I swear, it wrangled every penny out of its production, because every part of it was incredibly well acted and wonderfully shot.



I agree-there's this 'make guys dunderheads' in order to make the lead female look better-but usually it makes neither look good. (I haven't seen it-but The Last Jedi suffered similarly). Go and watch movies which are praised for their lead female hero being kick butt (Aliens, Terminator, to name a few) and you'll see that the male heroes aren't depicted as dumb @$$es, but rather as capable individuals who are well written.
Not seeing that lately.

I don't know if folks remember 'Proof'-not many people do (it's barely remembered as one of Saoirse Ronan's earliest roles). But that was a show that was comically overwritten. Everyone had drama-even the darn dinner was a plot point. (I'm not even joking-one line of dialogue went 'What's for dinner?' 'Roast Pork' 'I thought we were having Beef?'. *Cue sigh, and whole load of intrigue as to why there is no pork dinner*). I had thought the days of Proof were behind us, but the writing on Taken Down, as well as other RTE shows, shows this to be far from true.

It would be intelligent writing to have a female villain-but that's largely the issue with the show that happened far before it began filming...and which I don't blame on RTE. There's not intelligent writing. There's too much 'fellas are awful rape, drug dealing monsters, and the poor women are victims-defenseless against the monstrous cisgender heterosexual white man'.

The Big Bow Wow was one of the worst Irish dramas ever made. It is sad to see many of the same mistakes made in that are present in today's dramas. Striking Out was The Big Bow Wow updated to all intents and purposes. There was certainly a crime dimension in The Big Bow Wow and it was supposed to be a hip modern drama about professionals and college students whose lives revolved around a club called The Big Bow Wow.

I will look up that Youtube partial episode of Making the Cut and DDU. Single Handed was another pre-Love/Hate crime drama I heard of but never watched. I never saw Proof but I too thought the days of bad drama were behind us with Love/Hate setting the bar. Taken Down is a tame, drab, depressing drama and is just a more serious version of those Amy Huberman yokes.

RTE's dramas tend to try to be feminist but actually are misogynist. They are anti man and anti woman in the end with their cliched silly characters. Rural people also are often shown in a very cliched stereotypical manner which drives home the anti-rural agenda too.

The Last Jedi is enjoyable and the Rey character is a good character. While I

didn't agree with the killing off of both Luke and Han in the new Star Wars films

, the films were well made and gave fans of the franchise what they expected. In no way could Taken Down be compared to The Last Jedi. Forgive the pun but they are worlds apart in terms of quality. Taken Down is a drab, uninteresting, actionless, humourless tame minor RTE drama and that's what it will stay.

The Late Late Show

"First, is “The Handmaid’s Tale” a “feminist” novel? If you mean an ideological tract in which all women are angels and/or so victimized they are incapable of moral choice, no. If you mean a novel in which women are human beings — with all the variety of character and behavior that implies — and are also interesting and important, and what happens to them is crucial to the theme, structure and plot of the book, then yes. In that sense, many books are “feminist.” " - Margaret Atwood.

RTE if they are writing something with strong female lead characters should note that. The Handmaid's Tale is a very popular TV series and book in the current time and surely RTE's production team should be aware of it? Clearly not as RTE's idea is to make Striking Out, Finding Joy, Acceptable Risk and Taken Down .............. even though RTE shows The Handmaid's Tale.

The Late Late Show

Icsics wrote: »

Why is it always nighttime? Is it all the same night?

I mentioned that too earlier. It is almost entirely set in the dark and this only hones in on the drab depressing nature of this show. Even when the lights are on and even in the daylight, it is STILL darkness I notice.

The Late Late Show

dartboardio wrote: »

It got awfully dark very quick when Toby was bringing Abeni to the alleyway!

Good episode, as was the last one. Abeni is becoming my favorite character

Jaysus can’t believe all the hostile comments arguing over whether or not it’s bloody good, it’s a new show on RTE it’s hardly going to be winning an Oscar, but hey it’s something to watch at 9.30 on a Sunday night - we don’t usually have that option unless it’s eh.. room to improve , or Francis Brennan

We’re getting awful picky for our small little country with very limited ‘made at home’ shows. Just shurrrup and watch the thing or don’t.

As an Irish person, I want to see as many good quality Irish dramas as possible and have given many of them the benefit of the doubt. Love/Hate, Family, Strumpet City, Amongst Women are among the best ones. Taken Down just does not get near its potential and I know why. RTE's newfound tame agenda.

Sure, Taken Down and even Striking Out is preferable to the rubbish that is Room To Improve (why is there a personality cult around this Dermot Bannon of late?!?!) and Dragon's Den (aka Who Wants To Be A Presidential Election Candidate!) but that should not be the only choice.

VeVeX wrote: »

So we cant make a good TV show because Ireland is a small country?

We are fed mediocre crap because it'll do, it'll do for most people especially those with the small country mentality. Its what has RTE the cesspool of over paid talentless gobshítes that it is. Because ok is deemed to be ok. We are happy with subpar rubbish because Ireland is a small country, bollocks to that.

Taken Down is more watchable than the Room To Improve, Dragon's Den, Daniel and Majella's B&B Roadtrip, Ireland's Fittest Family, Dancing With The Stars, the Louis Walsh talent shows, At Your Service and all the other played out shows that seem to be going forever and polluting our Sunday viewing schedule. When RTE's other material is as bad as this, Taken Down is made to look good when it is not. RTE's dramas are now being made for fans of the affore mentioned reality drivel series which surely is the minority.

FrancieBrady

The Late Late Show wrote: »

"First, is “The Handmaid’s Tale” a “feminist” novel? If you mean an ideological tract in which all women are angels and/or so victimized they are incapable of moral choice, no. If you mean a novel in which women are human beings — with all the variety of character and behavior that implies — and are also interesting and important, and what happens to them is crucial to the theme, structure and plot of the book, then yes. In that sense, many books are “feminist.” " - Margaret Atwood.

RTE if they are writing something with strong female lead characters should note that. The Handmaid's Tale is a very popular TV series and book in the current time and surely RTE's production team should be aware of it? Clearly not as RTE's idea is to make Striking Out, Finding Joy, Acceptable Risk and Taken Down .............. even though RTE shows The Handmaid's Tale.

What???

twowheelsonly

I'm enjoying it..... and don't feel any need to compare it with other Irish dramas or indeed any other international drama series.
IMO, if you're going to compare every show on TV with some other show then you're missing out on the 'light entertainment' bit, which is what these things are.

@LLS

@LLS..

What the hell have you got against Room to improve?..

ED E

Can we apply a per user wordcount quota in thread? Ta.

donkeykong5

Guys on tonight show saying how great taken down is and some mouthy woman who is on the panel saying she was consulted about it. Half of Ireland seem to have been consulted about it at this stage. !

hatrickpatrick

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What???

It's a quote by Margaret Atwood outlining how creating a boring "women good, men bad" dichotomy in fictional writing for political reasons results not only in weak fiction, but also weak feminism.

By portraying all of the female Gardaí as hardworking, diligent detectives, and all of the male Gardaí as either bumbling eejits or lazy pervs, the show is trying so hard to ram an agenda down peoples' throats that the agenda itself falls apart - and takes the fiction with it.

This applies to all storytelling IMO, not just TV and not just RTE. Well written fiction displays the range of human behaviours across its different characters without assigning who the "goodies" and "baddies" are purely along demographic lines. Even if you take something like Harry Potter, while the central conflict in the story comes down to pure blood elitism vs half blood inclusivity, there are good and bad people on both sides of it - Voldemort is an evil half-blood, the Weasleys are good pure bloods, etc. In Love/Hate, almost all characters are morally ambiguous, even the Gardaí (the three undercover lads beating up Chunky, Moynihan attacking Nidge in rage, etc). Breaking Bad is mainly lads, but Skyler in Breaking Bad is an incredibly complicated character as the show goes on and can't easily be put into a "good" or "bad" box based on the sum of all her actions throughout the show, and Lydia is overwhelmingly one of the baddies.

Most good fiction has examples of this - where the demographic divide as to whether characters are antagonists or protagonists is essentially random and thus doesn't jump out as an attempt at subliminal ideological messaging.

With both Acceptable Risk and now Taken Down, the "all the lads are going to be scumbags, all the women are going to be heroes" trope was easy to spot from the second episode at the very latest. Acceptable Risk in my view jumped this particular shark entirely when it was revealed that

Ciarán, the deceased whose murder sparks the entire mystery of the show, was also a negative male stereotype of "can't hack that his wife makes more than him, so gets involved in dodgy behaviour as a result"

, that was when it became obvious for a lot of us here that the show was determined to paint all of its male characters as either villains or deeply flawed caricatures of "toxic masculinity", while all of the female characters are fundamentally good, wholesome people apart from the retired Garda, and the spat between the main character and her sister over keeping secrets.

Let me put this as an analogy: If someone made a show or story in which every black character was one of the "baddies" and every white character was one of the "goodies", or vice versa, it would similarly be glaringly obvious that the people writing it had some kind of chip on their shoulders and were writing their characters in this way deliberately. When you take what RTE is doing in the context of what's happening in the wider world of fictional writing over the last three or four years, Occam's Razor suggests that it's deliberate message-pedalling.

And fundamentally, a lot of people - not all, but a lot - don't like to be preached to or "lectured" when they're trying to immerse themselves in a fictional universe.

As I say, I was trying to ignore this and not bring it up in case it was just my own bias (I'm fairly jaded by this trope especially after the dumpster fire that was House of Cards Season Six) but seeing as several others have mentioned it, it's pretty clear that I'm not imagining this. And while I can still enjoy a show for its storytelling, I find it essentially breaks the fourth wall - it's so jarringly obvious that this is a plot device, that it takes one out of their immersion into the story when it happens.

The Late Late Show

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It's a quote by Margaret Atwood outlining how creating a boring "women good, men bad" dichotomy in fictional writing for political reasons results not only in weak fiction, but also weak feminism.

By portraying all of the female Gardaí as hardworking, diligent detectives, and all of the male Gardaí as either bumbling eejits or lazy pervs, the show is trying so hard to ram an agenda down peoples' throats that the agenda itself falls apart - and takes the fiction with it.

This applies to all storytelling IMO, not just TV and not just RTE. Well written fiction displays the range of human behaviours across its different characters without assigning who the "goodies" and "baddies" are purely along demographic lines. Even if you take something like Harry Potter, while the central conflict in the story comes down to pure blood elitism vs half blood inclusivity, there are good and bad people on both sides of it - Voldemort is an evil half-blood, the Weasleys are good pure bloods, etc. In Love/Hate, almost all characters are morally ambiguous, even the Gardaí (the three undercover lads beating up Chunky, Moynihan attacking Nidge in rage, etc). Breaking Bad is mainly lads, but Skyler in Breaking Bad is an incredibly complicated character as the show goes on and can't easily be put into a "good" or "bad" box based on the sum of all her actions throughout the show, and Lydia is overwhelmingly one of the baddies.

Most good fiction has examples of this - where the demographic divide as to whether characters are antagonists or protagonists is essentially random and thus doesn't jump out as an attempt at subliminal ideological messaging.

With both Acceptable Risk and now Taken Down, the "all the lads are going to be scumbags, all the women are going to be heroes" trope was easy to spot from the second episode at the very latest. Acceptable Risk in my view jumped this particular shark entirely when it was revealed that

Ciarán, the deceased whose murder sparks the entire mystery of the show, was also a negative male stereotype of "can't hack that his wife makes more than him, so gets involved in dodgy behaviour as a result"

, that was when it became obvious for a lot of us here that the show was determined to paint all of its male characters as either villains or deeply flawed caricatures of "toxic masculinity", while all of the female characters are fundamentally good, wholesome people apart from the retired Garda, and the spat between the main character and her sister over keeping secrets.

Let me put this as an analogy: If someone made a show or story in which every black character was one of the "baddies" and every white character was one of the "goodies", or vice versa, it would similarly be glaringly obvious that the people writing it had some kind of chip on their shoulders and were writing their characters in this way deliberately. When you take what RTE is doing in the context of what's happening in the wider world of fictional writing over the last three or four years, Occam's Razor suggests that it's deliberate message-pedalling.

And fundamentally, a lot of people - not all, but a lot - don't like to be preached to or "lectured" when they're trying to immerse themselves in a fictional universe.

As I say, I was trying to ignore this and not bring it up in case it was just my own bias (I'm fairly jaded by this trope especially after the dumpster fire that was House of Cards Season Six) but seeing as several others have mentioned it, it's pretty clear that I'm not imagining this. And while I can still enjoy a show for its storytelling, I find it essentially breaks the fourth wall - it's so jarringly obvious that this is a plot device, that it takes one out of their immersion into the story when it happens.

It is poor character development when all the characters look like caricatures. RTE's miscasting is blatant as well. Lynn Rafferty and Angeline Ball for example are not convincing in the role of Gardai. Poorly written, these RTE dramas end up looking 'feminism' produced by a misogynist.

That main male Garda character is a total idiot. Typical depiction of a stereotyped rural male Garda and presented to us as a total clown. That was ok in Mattie or Killinaskully as they are comedies but Taken Down is supposed to be a serious drama!!

Good, bad and more complex characters exist in proper dramas. Look at say Nidge or Serena Joy: nothing about them is straightforward and there is both bad and good in them. Detective Moynihan's obsession with Nidge and the unethical manner in which he and his team operate regarding Nidge's gang clearly shows they are far from being saints. Walt White was a good man who became a bad man which is what the title of the series he is the main character in states. Aunt Lydia, Irma Bunt and Rosa Klebb are some more examples of female villains while Furiosa, Offred/June and Sarah Connor are examples of good women (who were not perfect either). All such characters were well thought out and were real people not caricatures.

You look at the male character supposed villains of Taken Down and they are a joke. Wayne and Gar especially are just smart talking idiots so far. Both actors gave us the deranged Hughie and the perverted Git before but none of the menace in those two characters exists in either Wayne or Gar sadly. The bad African gangster character is done in a racist manner too even if that is not what was intended: all full of the stereotypical witchdoctor and voodooism stuff.

If RTE wanted a proper female strong cop character, they surely could have done a better match. Lynn Rafferty is no Tyne Daly for example and Rafferty was better as a minor character such as a gangster's girlfriend.

Taken Down has too many agendas that all backfire. It is designed to be a feminist, non-racist, non-violent crime drama. In reality, it ends up as a misogynist, racist, boring crime drama. The anti-violence agenda is clear too as I already discussed. Now, don't get me wrong, violence is not essential in a good drama but for a drama about fear and gangland issues like Taken Down, it is an essential ingredient. Imagine a non-violent Love/Hate!!! Would not work and would not be remembered.

We see people in fear in Taken Down but we do not see what they fear. We also saw for example Nidge hiding under a bed with a sword and so on when he was in the feud with Dano and we knew already from acts like Dano having Ado kneecapped why Nidge was afraid. Likewise, we see why people are afraid of the Gilead regime when we see hangings, execution by beating prisoners to death, gangland style executions in forests, electrocutions and kangaroo courts. Taken Down does not show us anything to justify the fear of some in it.

Are you some disgruntled former Late late show camera man or whats the story?..

"RTE in crap tv shocker!!"

FrancieBrady

The Late Late Show wrote: »

It is poor character development when all the characters look like caricatures. RTE's miscasting is blatant as well. Lynn Rafferty and Angeline Ball for example are not convincing in the role of Gardai. Poorly written, these RTE dramas end up looking 'feminism' produced by a misogynist.

That main male Garda character is a total idiot. Typical depiction of a stereotyped rural male Garda and presented to us as a total clown. That was ok in Mattie or Killinaskully as they are comedies but Taken Down is supposed to be a serious drama!!

Good, bad and more complex characters exist in proper dramas. Look at say Nidge or Serena Joy: nothing about them is straightforward and there is both bad and good in them. Detective Moynihan's obsession with Nidge and the unethical manner in which he and his team operate regarding Nidge's gang clearly shows they are far from being saints. Walt White was a good man who became a bad man which is what the title of the series he is the main character in states. Aunt Lydia, Irma Bunt and Rosa Klebb are some more examples of female villains while Furiosa, Offred/June and Sarah Connor are examples of good women (who were not perfect either). All such characters were well thought out and were real people not caricatures.

You look at the male character supposed villains of Taken Down and they are a joke. Wayne and Gar especially are just smart talking idiots so far. Both actors gave us the deranged Hughie and the perverted Git before but none of the menace in those two characters exists in either Wayne or Gar sadly. The bad African gangster character is done in a racist manner too even if that is not what was intended: all full of the stereotypical witchdoctor and voodooism stuff.

If RTE wanted a proper female strong cop character, they surely could have done a better match. Lynn Rafferty is no Tyne Daly for example and Rafferty was better as a minor character such as a gangster's girlfriend.

Taken Down has too many agendas that all backfire. It is designed to be a feminist, non-racist, non-violent crime drama. In reality, it ends up as a misogynist, racist, boring crime drama. The anti-violence agenda is clear too as I already discussed. Now, don't get me wrong, violence is not essential in a good drama but for a drama about fear and gangland issues like Taken Down, it is an essential ingredient. Imagine a non-violent Love/Hate!!! Would not work and would not be remembered.

We see people in fear in Taken Down but we do not see what they fear. We also saw for example Nidge hiding under a bed with a sword and so on when he was in the feud with Dano and we knew already from acts like Dano having Ado kneecapped why Nidge was afraid. Likewise, we see why people are afraid of the Gilead regime when we see hangings, execution by beating prisoners to death, gangland style executions in forests, electrocutions and kangaroo courts. Taken Down does not show us anything to justify the fear of some in it.

Your treatise on violence is just so wrong, I don't know where to begin.

It isn't in the style of the drama to give graphic illustrations of violence in the way L/H did. That is it's own style, it isn't a cop out.
The violence is very much there though, the fecking series centres around a horrible murder.
Have you ever heard of allowing your imagination to work?

Nermal

The Late Late Show wrote: »

"First, is “The Handmaid’s Tale” a “feminist” novel? If you mean an ideological tract in which all women are angels and/or so victimized they are incapable of moral choice, no. If you mean a novel in which women are human beings — with all the variety of character and behavior that implies — and are also interesting and important, and what happens to them is crucial to the theme, structure and plot of the book, then yes. In that sense, many books are “feminist.” " - Margaret Atwood.

The Handmaid's Tale is a great novel, and is a feminist novel, but that quote from Atwood is twaddle. It's not a feminist novel because women are human beings in it. It's a feminist novel because it is specifically about the power dynamic between the sexes.

The Late Late Show

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Your treatise on violence is just so wrong, I don't know where to begin.

It isn't in the style of the drama to give graphic illustrations of violence in the way L/H did. That is it's own style, it isn't a cop out.
The violence is very much there though, the fecking series centres around a horrible murder.
Have you ever heard of allowing your imagination to work?

I prefer the Love/Hate style. That other style has been used way too often by RTE in this, in Rebellion, Acceptable Risk, etc. too. I'd like to see the Love/Hate style used again for a change.

robwen

This thread is bizarre I follow lots of TV shows on boards (mainly to get recaps, others theories, pick up on things I might have missed) & they all talk about the actual show or they tend to go quiet, this one barely a mention of whats actually going on in the show but one of the most active threads in tv

The Late Late Show

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you some disgruntled former Late late show camera man or whats the story?..

"RTE in crap tv shocker!!"

No the name late late show is based on a soccer term.

The Late Late Show

robwen wrote: »

This thread is bizarre I follow lots of TV shows on boards (mainly to get recaps, others theories, pick up on things I might have missed) & they all talk about the actual show or they tend to go quiet, this one barely a mention of whats actually going on in the show but one of the most active threads in tv

Because there is very little actually going on in the show. Only the first episode had anything worthwhile.

hatrickpatrick

robwen wrote: »

This thread is bizarre I follow lots of TV shows on boards (mainly to get recaps, others theories, pick up on things I might have missed) & they all talk about the actual show or they tend to go quiet, this one barely a mention of whats actually going on in the show but one of the most active threads in tv

This is essentially because RTE spam-hyped the absolute sh!te out of it, and yet most viewers feel that it's nowhere near living up to the level of gushing that it's getting from the showbiz establishment. This inevitably leads people to question whether the aforementioned gushing is due to external socio-political factors and not the actual quality of the content.

Here's another trope which was similarly a feature of Love/Hate and one of its negatives IMO - why do these dramas always make the Gardaí out to be absolutely terrible at covert surveillance? The two lads getting discovered this week just hanging around outside the brothel looking incredibly suspicious, while Orla FitzGerald's character visibly dashes to keep up with her quarry - in Love/Hate you had the likes of Ciarán trailing Fran and literally stopping a few metres behind him every time he stopped, the Gardaí tracking the lads to the Zoo only to park an extraordinarily obvious unmarked car right next to them and blow the whole sting, etc - it's a useful plot device from time to time, but when it gets repeated incessantly across multiple shows it becomes a tiresome trope.

Put it this way: It didn't surprise me in the least that they got caught staking the place out. As soon as they decided to do an in-person surveillance operation, my brain went "bet they'll do something moronic and blow their cover". IMO, when it's that predictable, that's when there's an issue with the writing.

Does yer one actually speak like that, or are the accents being 'acted'..they're abysmal..

The Late Late Show

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This is essentially because RTE spam-hyped the absolute sh!te out of it, and yet most viewers feel that it's nowhere near living up to the level of gushing that it's getting from the showbiz establishment. This inevitably leads people to question whether the aforementioned gushing is due to external socio-political factors and not the actual quality of the content.

Exactly spot on there. Viewers will feel short-changed by it because of the hype around it and it being sold as 'from the makers of Love/Hate'. Don't get me wrong, Taken Down is not all bad and is not The Big Bow Wow level but it is just like dozens of other Irish dramas that are tame and run of the mill. Clean Break and Amber were much better than it I thought.

Many get behind the drama and ignore its average to poor quality because it highlights the plight of people in direct provision and people smuggling. Yet we see little of those worlds or zero backstories to why they left their countries. Sometimes, flashbacks to the past can really work and are among the best parts of The Handmaid's Tale and other such quality dramas.

Taken Down from this image is clearly sold as 'from the makers of Love/Hate'. There will be probably at the VERY END one Carolan-penned Love/Hate-style episode and we will be asking why didn't they do that all along!!

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8649378/mediaviewer/rm305820160

Redneck Culchie

When I knew about the writers ties to Sinn Fein and the asylum seeker topic, I knew we were in for propaganda of the worst kind.

I just want good TV not leftie propaganda thrown in my face.

FrancieBrady

The Late Late Show wrote: »

Exactly spot on there. Viewers will feel short-changed by it because of the hype around it and it being sold as 'from the makers of Love/Hate'. Don't get me wrong, Taken Down is not all bad and is not The Big Bow Wow level but it is just like dozens of other Irish dramas that are tame and run of the mill. Clean Break and Amber were much better than it I thought.

Many get behind the drama and ignore its average to poor quality because it highlights the plight of people in direct provision and people smuggling. Yet we see little of those worlds or zero backstories to why they left their countries. Sometimes, flashbacks to the past can really work and are among the best parts of The Handmaid's Tale and other such quality dramas.

Taken Down from this image is clearly sold as 'from the makers of Love/Hate'. There will be probably at the VERY END one Carolan-penned Love/Hate-style episode and we will be asking why didn't they do that all along!!

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8649378/mediaviewer/rm305820160

It is far from 'poor'. It isn't Love Hate though and you need to get over that. Completely different style and it has an intensity I am beginning to get into tbh.

The Late Late Show

Redneck Culchie wrote: »

When I knew about the writers ties to Sinn Fein and the asylum seeker topic, I knew we were in for propaganda of the worst kind.

I just want good TV not leftie propaganda thrown in my face.

I too want good TV not 100% propaganda. I don't care if it is so-called 'leftwing' or so-called 'rightwing' propaganda thrown at me without any proper story, it is the same end result. Taken Down is full of propaganda and agendas of all kinds and this restricts where the drama can go and what the drama can do.

I've seen countless blatantly leftwing and blatantly rightwing series and films over the years. None were good because of it. Jo Spain is an advisor to Sinn Fein's Pearse Doherty. Usually when politicians or those who work for politicians get involved in drama making, the drama suffers. Well-known propagandist for both the 'right' and the 'left' Eoghan Harris was afterall one of the writers of The Big Bow Wow. Like his political views, this 'drama' was all over the place. Did not watch enough of it to remember if any of Harris' varied agendas were in it.

That reminded me of another drama. 2002's No Tears about a health crisis that some said was funded by a Fianna Fail friendly entity to damage then Fine Gael leader Michael Noonan.

Another thing we must remember about dramas in Ireland especially RTE is they are made to complement other programmes. Direct provision is a topic that up until now has seldom been discussed. It is something new for all the chatshows and just like the homelessness and all the other things, something the rich can PRETEND to care about.

RabbleRouser2k

I see that Octagon films (the studio that produced Love/ Hate, The Tudors, Camelot, etc) weren't involved in Taken Down-and I wonder if that also played a part?
(Octagon are currently involved in court case over the alleged embezzlement of 40 million euros-obviously RTE wouldn't want to be involved in something that will lose them a greater deal of money).

Redneck Culchie

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

I see that Octagon films (the studio that produced Love/ Hate, The Tudors, Camelot, etc) weren't involved in Taken Down-and I wonder if that also played a part?
(Octagon are currently involved in court case over the alleged embezzlement of 40 million euros-obviously RTE wouldn't want to be involved in something that will lose them a greater deal of money).

Sinn Fein have ties to much more serious crimes.A highlight real of their greatest crimes would also be too violent for RTE.

RabbleRouser2k

Redneck Culchie wrote: »

Sinn Fein have ties to much more serious crimes.A highlight real of their greatest crimes would also be too violent for RTE.

I was thinking more along the lines of 'if those guys are embezzling money, RTE don't want to find out that money was embezzled from them too'. Not the crimes of Sinn Fein or the IRA.
More along the lines of 'you told us it cost 6 million euros to produce this show, yet you only spent 4 million-where is the other 2 million?'

Octagon's accounts are currently frozen pending an investigation.

prunudo

Have an actual question about episode 4. So spoiler alert for anyone who hasn't seen it yet.
At the end of the episode we see the video of Wayne at the party. Is the girl he talking to at the end, the murdered girl Esme?

bodhrandude

Was getting worried for Abeni this episode when it looked like Gar was going to suggest to her to become a prostitute at the brothel, this was when she started working there in the day shift. I'm enjoying it myself, The Late Late Show here's a suggestion, why don't you watch something else you like lol.

Seth Brundle

Deleted User wrote: »

Does yer one actually speak like that, or are the accents being 'acted'..they're abysmal..

If the accents are real, are they still abysmal?