Replace these downlighters with LED?

deandean

There used to be an LED lighting thread but I can't find it..this must be a common query.

Anyways: I have ten of these 12V 50W halogen downlighters in the kitchen ceiling. I'm fed up of having to regularly change the bulbs; and the kids still don't know how to turn lights off.

It's probably a good move to change to LED.

The can is 76mm diameter and the hole in the ceiling is 82mm diameter.

To replace these with LED downlighters, can I keep the housing and stick in new bulbs?

Or do I need to purchase complete new luminaires?

I like my light, and I want the brightest LED solution possible.

But I really want to avoid having to drill out the existing holes in the plasterboard.

Any advice much appreciated

Jameswhalley

Get new luminaires

There's a trick if you need to widen the hole slightly,you can put the 82mm holesaw inside the bigger one so it guides the bigger holesaw

Dark sun

Easy solution is to remove all the transformers and connect gu10 lamp holders in place, straight forward, and you can keep original housings.

https://www.eurosales.ie/products/gzlh.html?name=Gu10&type=simple&page=10

https://www.eurosales.ie/products/35val40.html?name=Gu10&type=simple&page=7

deandean

The local wholesalers suggested I first try as 12V LED bulb - a direct swap.
I got one of these. I must say the light output is not too bad, about 80-90% of the 50W halogen.
But the beam angle is too narrow: the floor is lit but there is no spread of light to the walls, which makes the room look gloomy.

2011

You would be better off with a GU10 as suggested for a number of reasons.

Jameswhalley

There's a safety aspect to modifying the original fittings and converting them to mains voltage

I would change the lot

2011

Jameswhalley wrote: »

There's a safety aspect to modifying the original fittings and converting them to mains voltage

Please explain.

I would change the fittings just because they are cheap and would look nice, new and clean.

Jameswhalley

It's self explanatory

The luminaires in the pics are designed for ELV

To safely change over to GU10 you would need to change fitting and bulb

2011

Jameswhalley wrote: »

It's self explanatory

The luminaires in the pics are designed for ELV

To safely change over to GU10 you would need to change fitting and bulb

I though you were going to say you were concerned about earthing.
Apart from that I can’t see the safety issue you are referring to, after all LED lamps run far cooler.

Jameswhalley

2011 wrote: »

I though you were going to say you were concerned about earthing.
Apart from that I can’t see the safety issue you are referring to, after all LED lamps run far cooler.

Who can say it's safe

You could snag the GU10 lead on the metal can by accident

Would it be safe to convert a 12v appliance to 230v,where do you draw the line?

2011

Jameswhalley wrote: »

Who can say it's safe

I suppose if I was doing this I would risk assess it myself.
I would suspect that a soffit is not specifically designed to have downlighters fitted to it yet I am confident that this can be done safely once the necessary precautions are taken.

Electricians constantly constantly assess electrical designs so as to make sure that they are safe and fit for purpose and are not compromised by external influences.

You could snag the GU10 lead on the metal can by accident

Very true, hence my earthing comment.
Wouldn’t this apply to just about any cable entry to a conductive enclosure??

Would it be safe to convert a 12v appliance to 230v

That depends very much on the appliance and the environment it is being installed in.

where do you draw the line?

Me personally, somewhere the other side of downlighters (with a few caveats).

Having said that I don’t entirely disagree with you. In general you are correct and your approach is certainly a example of airing on the side of safety.

Jameswhalley

Electrical installation design is unrelated to modification of an appliance or luminaire

Class 2 appliances and luminaires with conductive enclosures are designed specifically for that purpose

2011

Jameswhalley wrote: »

Electrical installation design is unrelated to modification of an appliance or luminaire

Agreed, I was using this as an example of when an electrician risk assess a situation.

Class 2 appliances and luminaires with conductive enclosures are designed specifically for that purpose

Agreed, but not sure what your point is.

My point is look at the risks, assess them and then address them. Sometimes this will mean a replacement is required, sometimes a modification will suffice.

I work in a industry where we frequently retrofit and modify equipment to suit new requirements where there often isn’t an off the shelf solution.

Jameswhalley

My point is only that in this case after assessing the risks

A replacement is required

2011

Jameswhalley wrote: »

My point is only that in this case after assessing the risks

A replacement is required

Fair enough, that is your view. I respect that.

Is it the risk of a snagged cable that led you to this conclusion?
Or do you see other risks?

wavert

deandean wrote:

The local wholesalers suggested I first try as 12V LED bulb - a direct swap. I got one of these. I must say the light output is not too bad, about 80-90% of the 50W halogen. But the beam angle is too narrow: the floor is lit but there is no spread of light to the walls, which makes the room look gloomy.

Have the same issue with LED GU10's. Beam angle is too narrow ~35°. I have not come across any GU10 with a wide beam angle.

deandean

wavert wrote: »

Have the same issue with LED GU10's. Beam angle is too narrow ~35°. I have not come across any GU10 with a wide beam angle.

Yes there's a 35 degree beam angle on the test bulb I bought and it's too narrow.

For sure there's a far better selection in GU10, i.e. 60 degree and I even saw a 90 degree bulb somewhere.

It's a good point about the safety aspect of running 230V bulbs in 12V fittings. There's a big-enough hole in the top of the can; the GU10 connector (post #3) is well insulated and locks onto the bulb; and the bulb is well secured in the luminaire.

I'm gonna try a 60-degree beam angle, good-quality GU10 bulb and see how it works both in terms of illumination, and safety. I'll report back in a couple of days.

Good discussion in this thread; many thanks all

deandean

OP back here.
Right, I got the job done and it worked out well .

First I tried a 12V LED replacement. I could only find them in 35deg beam angle which was very narrow - it only lit the floor beneath.

I liked the idea of getting rid of the transformers (thanks Dark sun) so I decided to go GU10.

I tried three wholesalers in Dublin but they all stocked only bulbs with 35deg beam.

I checked online reviews and settled on these from Amazon: Lampaous Pack of 10 Dimmable 5W LED GU10 Bulb Warm White Ceramic Heat sink 60 degree beam angle 400lm GU10 LED.
I got the GU10 connectors and took out the 12V transformers.

I was going to fit earth connections to the luminaires, but there's no earth wiring in the ceiling.

It was interesting taking out the transformers: two of them had been directly above the bulbs and were seriously heat-damaged.

The end result is excellent! The new bulbs have a beam angle somewhere between 60deg and 120deg. They light the walls and worktops as well as the floor. The colour temperature is a teeny bit whiter than the original halogen bulbs.

The new bulbs have a ceramic body. I just hope they don't cook their internals and die early. The bulbs with external aluminium heatsinks (e.g. Philips) probably keep their electronics a bit cooler.

Thomyokk

Well done, but the job comes with a "health warning" as the downlights have been modified to operate at 230v

Proceed at your own risk as they say

heffo500

I cannot understand why you didn't replace the fittings, even for just the peace of mind.

2011

heffo500 wrote: »

I cannot understand why you didn't replace the fittings, even for just the peace of mind.

I am guessing that your concern is that the light fitting is not earthed, am I correct? If so are you suggesting that these lights should be replaced with plastic fittings?

From memory most of the GU10 downlighters I have seen have no earth termination point such as this example.

In terms of overall risk reduction I think this is an improvement as the transformers are now out of circuit and the lamps run cool compared to what they replace.

heffo500

2011 wrote: »

I am guessing that your concern is that the light fitting is not earthed, am I correct? If so are you suggesting that these lights should be replaced with plastic fittings?

From memory most of the GU10 downlighters I have seen have no earth termination point such as this example.

In terms of overall risk reduction I think this is an improvement as the transformers are now out of circuit and the lamps run cool compared to what they replace.

That is a concern however even just for speed of installation. And to use a fitting as it was designed for.

I would normally install something fire rated like this: http://www.meteorelectrical.com/lighting-lamps/lighting-1/fire-rated-twist-lock-gu10-fixed-white-downlight.html

I do agree it is better to have no transformer just feel it's a better job to use new fittings.

2011

heffo500 wrote: »

That is a concern however even just for speed of installation.

I'm sorry but I don't understand what this means

And to use a fitting as it was designed for.

Can you identify the risk you see with not using this particular fitting for what it was designed for?

Also how do you know it was not designed for a GU10 lamps?
I say that because back in the day when I installed downlihters like this many of the ones that I purchased were designed for MR16 (12VDC lamps) as well as GU10s.

Thomyokk

heffo500 wrote: »

That is a concern however even just for speed of installation. And to use a fitting as it was designed for.

I would normally install something fire rated like this: http://www.meteorelectrical.com/lighting-lamps/lighting-1/fire-rated-twist-lock-gu10-fixed-white-downlight.html

I do agree it is better to have no transformer just feel it's a better job to use new fittings.

That's what the op should have done, upgraded to a fire rated spot at only £5-50

It will have the proper enclosure for the terminations for the lamp holder as well ensuring the fly leads don't rub off the can.

In the process he would have reinstated the fire barrier on the ceiling

deandean

heffo500 wrote: »

I cannot understand why you didn't replace the fittings, even for just the peace of mind.

I looked at buying new fittings allright. I like the fact that they are fire-rated.
But I wanted wide-angle bulbs, whereas all new fittings I researched come with the 35deg bulbs. So I'd have to buy new fittings, and still buy the bulbs I want

heffo500

2011 wrote: »

I'm sorry but I don't understand what this means



Can you identify the risk you see with not using this particular fitting for what it was designed for?

Also how do you know it was not designed for a GU10 lamps?
I say that because back in the day when I installed downlihters like this many of the ones that I purchased were designed for MR16 (12VDC lamps) as well as GU10s.

I would be concerned about the earthing however I think most electricians would rather replace than modify as it would be quicker and most likely easier.

I also would prefer to use a fitting that had a fixed connector on the fitting.

I don't know if they were also designed to work with GU10 as well as MR16 however presuming it would be impossible to find the original technical documentation for these fittings to confirm this I believe we should assume they are not suitable.


Do you agree it would have better to replace?

heffo500

deandean wrote: »

I looked at buying new fittings allright. I like the fact that they are fire-rated.
But I wanted wide-angle bulbs, whereas all new fittings I researched come with the 35deg bulbs. So I'd have to buy new fittings, and still buy the bulbs I want

Most fittings can be bought without the bulb included at any electrical wholesalers so perhaps this shouldn't have been an issue.