England v S Africa 3rd Nov Match thread

Burkie1203

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Terrific post match from Rassie, on the tackle he just said it's incredibly effective way to stop someone so if that's legal we'll have to practice that and do the same. Brilliant shade thrown at World Rugby in the most dead pan of fashions. Highlights the urgent need for consistency and transparency.

Pray for Will Connors. As soon as he comes back he will get a blue scrum cap and a load of shoulder charges

stephen_n

Deleted User wrote: »

Terrific post match from Rassie, on the tackle he just said it's incredibly effective way to stop someone so if that's legal we'll have to practice that and do the same. Brilliant shade thrown at World Rugby in the most dead pan of fashions. Highlights the urgent need for consistency and transparency.

Seemingly they must have been practicing it before the game.

https://mobile.twitter.com/andywenborn/status/1059013025418612736

The Dagestani Eagle

Boscoirl

Clear attempt to wrap

https://twitter.com/pennyhb/status/1059072156296978434?s=21

leakyboots

The English media don't seem to be making much of the tackle, if anything it's galvanised them. Seeing lots of articles saying how Farrell is the missing piece and they're 'ready' for the All Blacks.

Hope the ABs stuff 'em.

Interested Observer

leakyboots wrote: »

The English media don't seem to be making much of the tackle, if anything it's galvanised them. Seeing lots of articles saying how Farrell is the missing piece and they're 'ready' for the All Blacks.

Hope the ABs stuff 'em.

I don't really think you need to hope tbh, they'll win by quite a lot. England don't have the firepower.

leakyboots

leakyboots wrote: »

The English media don't seem to be making much of the tackle, if anything it's galvanised them. Seeing lots of articles saying how Farrell is the missing piece and they're 'ready' for the All Blacks.

Hope the ABs stuff 'em.

Farrell at the end of the game put a big hit in when all he needed to do was make the tackle. It's the sort of hit you make early in the game to put down a marker, not when you are playing ultra disciplined near your 22 after 80 minutes in a 1 point game.

He wanted the card, the kick to go over and Jones to be gone.

His celebrations when the ref didn't penalise him reeked of 'the lady doth protest too much'.

Now - where is the conspiracy sub forum?

Mookie Blaylock

Check out @Petrivz’;s Tweet: https://twitter.com/Petrivz/status/1059669701444427778?s=09

You've really got to love Rassie

irishbucsfan

Still haven’t seen a single video of the angle the referee actually looked at before reaching his decision. Nor his explanation. Just that same photo over and over (and then other clips of South African tackles from people engaging in whataboutery)

It’s just all become an excercise in pearl-clutching and opportunistic scapegoating of an unlikeable player (last part is his own fault).

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Still haven’t seen a single video of the angle the referee actually looked at before reaching his decision. Nor his explanation. Just that same photo over and over (and then other clips of South African tackles from people engaging in whataboutery)

It’s just all become an excercise in pearl-clutching and opportunistic scapegoating of an unlikeable player (last part is his own fault).

Is it not in the highlights? Ref said he was happy with the wrap. The ref didn't look at still frames. In motion, Farrell's right arm does attempt to wrap after the initial hit.

irishbucsfan

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is it not in the highlights? Ref said he was happy with the wrap. The ref didn't look at still frames. In motion, Farrell's right arm does attempt to wrap after the initial hit.

Oh yeah sorry I’d say it is in the highlights, I meant more among people claiming it should have been cited etc.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Still haven’t seen a single video of the angle the referee actually looked at before reaching his decision. Nor his explanation. Just that same photo over and over (and then other clips of South African tackles from people engaging in whataboutery)

It’s just all become an excercise in pearl-clutching and opportunistic scapegoating of an unlikeable player (last part is his own fault).

I like Farrell. He's a tough player and from what I've seen a genuine leader. He also spectacularly put Ashton in his box a few years back.

It was a no arms tackle and a penalty with potential to be a yellow.

*pearl clutching intensifies*

thomond2006

This thread lacked BigBok.

AdamD

Irishbucsfan in defending a ref shocker

irishbucsfan

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I like Farrell. He's a tough player and from what I've seen a genuine leader. He also spectacularly put Ashton in his box a few years back.

It was a no arms tackle and a penalty with potential to be a yellow.

*pearl clutching intensifies*

Except in the angle from behind where you can see Farrell’s arm going out to wrap. That makes it a legitimate tackle. Borderline, it could have been a penalty, it’d never be a yellow.

If he hadn’t made any attempt at all then the furor’s would make sense. But he clearly did. So the furore says more about the people reacting and the laws than the officials.

irishbucsfan

AdamD wrote: »

Irishbucsfan in defending a ref shocker

Turns out people who do this all the time or professionally are generally more likely to be correct than people who learned their rugby watching gifs on twitter from their couch!

Buer

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Except in the angle from behind where you can see Farrell’s arm going out to wrap. That makes it a legitimate tackle. Borderline, it could have been a penalty, it’d never be a yellow.

You say this like it's an accepted fact an no official could possibly find otherwise.

I previously asked if you felt there was anything reckless with Farrell keeping his dominant arm down by his side whilst leading with the shoulder. Any thoughts?

AdamD

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Turns out people who do this all the time or professionally are generally more likely to be correct than people who learned their rugby watching gifs on twitter from their couch!

But but but the ref is widely considered to be wrong here. I'll leave you to your vast knowledge of the game of rugby and return to my couch.

irishbucsfan

Buer wrote: »

You say this like it's an accepted fact an no official could possibly find otherwise.

I previously asked if you felt there was anything reckless with Farrell keeping his dominant arm down by his side whilst leading with the shoulder. Any thoughts?

I never said no official could possibly find otherwise. You’ve invented that. I said it would never be a yellow. Just like it’d never be a citing.

Is it reckless? To the extent that any dominant tackle or carry is reckless, yes. The carrier who put head down into Cipriani’s shoulder was reckless as well. No one is going to get penalized for that alone in a tackle situation, so long as they perform a legal tackle or carry.

What is relevant is: was it illegal? Under the current laws, only if he didn’t attempt to wrap. He did according to the reverse footage, which the referee saw, so it wasn’t. No referee who saw that footage of his left arm would have sin binned the tackler.

If people want to change the laws then they should do so. I said before it’d be a very interesting discussion to consider enforcing a wrap with both arms, I’m not sure it’s workable but probably worth a trial. If it is then let’s have a trial and a new interpretation but you can’t retroactively penalise someone for a law that does not exist just because it caused a result you don’t like.

irishbucsfan

AdamD wrote: »

But but but the ref is widely considered to be wrong here. I'll leave you to your vast knowledge of the game of rugby and return to my couch.

Not by people whose opinion have any real merit or consequence.

Buer

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I never said no official could possibly find otherwise. You’ve invented that. I said it would never be a yellow. Just like it’d never be a citing.

I'm actually confused at this stage. I was referencing it would "never be a yellow". Surely some officials would judge otherwise and it's not a black and white situation? Rugby is massively open to interpretation. Your statement is definitive in what I would view as a grey area.

Is it reckless? To the extent that any dominant tackle or carry is reckless, yes. The carrier who put head down into Cipriani’s shoulder was reckless as well. No one is going to get penalized for that alone in a tackle situation, so long as they perform a legal tackle or carry.

I'm asking specifically about the Farrell situation though and his actions. Cipriani has nothing to do with this scenario. Specifically, do you think there's nothing reckless with Farrell dropping his front arm to his side and leading with the shoulder?

irishbucsfan

Buer wrote: »

I'm actually confused at this stage. I was referencing it would "never be a yellow". Surely some officials would judge otherwise and it's not a black and white situation? Rugby is massively open to interpretation. Your statement is definitive in what I would view as a grey area.

Every single decision on a rugby pitch is a grey area. I said that in the context of a dicussion with people who absolutely know that of course.

I'm asking specifically about the Farrell situation though and his actions. Cipriani has nothing to do with this scenario. Specifically, do you think there's nothing reckless with Farrell dropping his front arm to his side and leading with the shoulder?

Do I think it constitutes reckless endangerment, to a penalisable extent? Absolutely not. As I said, it was reckless in the same way any number of actions on a rugby pitch are reckless in every game.

Can you point to any precedent whatsoever of an otherwise legal tackle that was penalised under that law?

Mookie Blaylock

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Not by people whose opinion have any real merit or consequence.

Ex refs have said that it was illegal...so who do you count as having merit?

irishbucsfan

Mookie Blaylock wrote: »

Ex refs have said that it was illegal...so who do you count as having merit?

Which ex refs?

It’s not about who I count, I’m irrelevant. I don’t hire referees, citing commissioners or judicial officers for world rugby. I also don’t make laws, I just save my anger for when the actual laws aren’t followed.

connemara man

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Which ex refs?

It’s not about who I count, I’m irrelevant. I don’t hire referees, citing commissioners or judicial officers for world rugby. I also don’t make laws, I just save my anger for when the actual laws aren’t followed.

Barnes called it a penalty

Buer

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Do I think it constitutes reckless endangerment, to a penalisable extent? Absolutely not.

That's grand, just wanted to clarify that you believe that's not a reckless action.

irishbucsfan

connemara man wrote: »

Barnes called it a penalty

Oh did he? I’d be interested to read what he said.

I’ve no problem with anyone saying it’s a penalty. I said he’s lucky for that reason, and that’s why it was a mistake by Farrell, other refs certainly could call it a penalty. A sin-binning though (with the benefit of that footage) was never going to happen.

There’s also a massive difference between saying “I would have given a penalty” and “I think the ref was wrong”.

irishbucsfan

Buer wrote: »

That's grand, just wanted to clarify that you believe that's not a reckless action.

Just directly contradicting what I said now!

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Except in the angle from behind where you can see Farrell’s arm going out to wrap. That makes it a legitimate tackle. Borderline, it could have been a penalty, it’d never be a yellow.
If he hadn’t made any attempt at all then the furor’s would make sense.

At the point of impact, Farrell is leading with his shoulder and the arm attached to that shoulder is in a position where it physically can not wrap, it's completely by his side.

There was no realistic chance given Farrell's body position that he was going to be able to wrap and the contest did not at all resemble a tackle, it looks like a full force shoulder to the opposition player.

If you are satisfied that it is close enough to a tackle under the laws that's absolutely fine, but what I've copied below is just dismissive bullshít that doesn't really apply to anyone on here and does nothing for your argument.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So the furore says more about the people reacting and the laws than the officials.

connemara man

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Oh did he? I’d be interested to read what he said.

I’ve no problem with anyone saying it’s a penalty. I said he’s lucky for that reason, and that’s why it was a mistake by Farrell, other refs certainly could call it a penalty. A sin-binning though (with the benefit of that footage) was never going to happen.

There’s also a massive difference between saying “I would have given a penalty” and “I think the ref was wrong”.

He said it post match