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Peter Casey's beliefs of Travellers' ethnicity Part II
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MrMusician18 wrote:I've felt in recent years that there has been a growing unrepresented cohort of voters ripe for the taking. When you look at marriage equality some 40% voted against, 33% against repeal and then 23% for Casey. While the turnouts obviously vary, I would bet there is a good chance that many of those Casey voters voted No in the two referendums. When these voters look to political parties, there is no mainstream home for them.
Voted yes in both the SSM ref and abortion ref. Until Casey decided to upset the applecart wasn't going to vote at all. Nice piece of rubbish though0 -
Casey voter here. Voted YES to Repeal and YES to Marriage Equality and anyone I spoke to who voted for him claims to have don the same. To me, this suggests that what he said resonates on an apolitical level.
Its almost as if being a decent person and not wanting to get f*cked over aren't mutually exclusive.0 -
MrMusician18 wrote: »When you look at marriage equality some 40% voted against, 33% against repeal and then 23% for Casey. While the turnouts obviously vary, I would bet there is a good chance that many of those Casey voters voted No in the two referendums.
What leads you to conclude that Casey voters are also opposed to same-sex marriage?
I have no problem whatsoever with two men or two women getting married. They are not placing any additional burden on society by marrying.
Like it or not, Traveller culture does place a significant extra burden on society. Margaret Cash, for example, is a product of Traveller culture. She was taken out of school at age 12, was married off at 15, got pregnant at 16, and now at age 28 she has seven children she can't support. She has 39 criminal convictions, has no academic or professional qualifications, and is essentially unemployable in modern society.
Are we really expected to recognize and respect a "culture" that denies children an education, that marries child brides off to their first cousins, that encourages feuding, bare-knuckle boxing, and other forms of anti-social behavior -- all while the taxpayer picks up the tab for the social welfare entitlements as well as the significant extra costs when it comes to policing, justice, incarceration, and damage to public property?
Casey voiced the frustration that many people feel about indulging Travellers' so-called "traditions" to the point where any criticism of them is verboten. He gave voice to what many people in the country think, and that's why he got 23 percent. It has nothing whatsoever to do with same-sex marriage.0 -
Hattie Puny Litterbug wrote: »And what leads you to conclude that Casey voters are also opposed to same-sex marriage?
I have no problem whatsoever with two men or two women getting married. They are not placing any burden on society.
Like it or not, Traveller culture places a significant extra burden on society. Margaret Cash, for example, is a product of Traveller culture. She was taken out of school at age 12, was married off at 15, got pregnant at 16, and now at age 28 she has seven children she can't support. She has 39 criminal convictions, has no academic or professional qualifications, and is essentially unemployable in modern society.
Are we really expected to recognize and respect a "culture" that denies children an education, that marries child brides off to their cousins, that encourages feuding, bare-knuckle boxing, and other forms of anti-social behavior -- while the taxpayer picks up the tab for all the social welfare entitlements as well as significant extra costs when it comes to policing, justice, incarceration, and damage to public property?
Casey voiced the frustration that many feel with indulging Travellers so-called "traditions" to the point where any criticism of them is verboten. He gave voice to what many people in the country think, and that's why he got 23 percent. It has nothing whatsoever to do with same-sex marriage.
What if education and the work of people liasing with this community was reducing the incidents of Margaret Cash's?
There are significant interactions going on all the time within the traveller community.
These need to be increased. Reaching for extreme cases in order to castigate the entire community is no help to anyone.
You would never do it with the settled community but you certainly can not deny that there are many many issues and burdens on the state within it.0 -
The implication that people who live in fear are some sort of backword hillybillies opposed to granting others human rights is very insulting.
People who voted for gay marriage in particular did so because they saw marriage as a human right, nothing more and nothing less.
Peter Casey got the highest number of votes in areas where there are lots of travellers and lots of travellers means lots of problems for settled people. It really is as simple as this and thats why the Government need to take action now and not wait until rural people set up their own vigilante groups.0 -
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MrMusician18 wrote: »To be honest, I think this thread has now been overcooked and it's time to say it's done. The vast majority of posts are just responses to one or two posters anyway.
I've felt in recent years that there has been a growing unrepresented cohort of voters ripe for the taking. When you look at marriage equality some 40% voted against, 33% against repeal and then 23% for Casey. While the turnouts obviously vary, I would bet there is a good chance that many of those Casey voters voted No in the two referendums. When these voters look to political parties, there is no mainstream home for them.
An interesting study would be how many Casey voters we're both historically FF and no to repeal.
I said earlier that I expect FF to be the most nimble of the parties and will try policies that address the Casey remarks in a way that is right wing. Martin will have to be dumped for this change in direction. If they don't, then their clothes will most definitely be stolen by independents with no qualms about speaking their mind.
The next general election will be fun, all thanks to Casey.
I think you are very wrong on that.
The general homophobic attitude of the travelling community may have meant that quite a few SSM supporters voted for Casey. Ditto their atttitude to women.
I voted yes in both referenda and for Casey, I would expect to be typical. The die-hard nos in both referenda probably went for the candidate allegedly linked with Iona.0 -
Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »“That it may be blew up with him in it”
Is that hate speech?
What ya reckon Francie? You were fairly vocal with accusations of hate speech before. Here you have someone calling for death basically, something Casey never done. Is it hate speech?0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »What if education and the work of people liasing with this community was reducing the incidents of Margaret Cash's?
I haven't seen a single piece of evidence that it is working. Anything I have seen suggests the opposite, that the problem is getting worse.FrancieBrady wrote: »There are significant interactions going on all the time within the traveller community.
What does this mean? There are significant interactions going on all the time within any community.FrancieBrady wrote: »These need to be increased. Reaching for extreme cases in order to castigate the entire community is no help to anyone.
You would never do it with the settled community but you certainly can not deny that there are many many issues and burdens on the state within it.
I will criticise the Muslim culture for their attitude to women.
I will criticise African culture for FGM.
I will criticise Traveller culture for their attitude to women.
As for not castigating an entire community because of a few incidents, would that apply to not castigating the British people for the actions of a few rogue soldiers in the North?0 -
MrMusician18 wrote: »I've felt in recent years that there has been a growing unrepresented cohort of voters ripe for the taking. When you look at marriage equality some 40% voted against, 33% against repeal and then 23% for Casey. While the turnouts obviously vary, I would bet there is a good chance that many of those Casey voters voted No in the two referendums. When these voters look to political parties, there is no mainstream home for them.
Nonsense. I voted Casey but I also voted Yes in both campaigns. Who are these voters?0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »You would never do it with the settled community but you certainly can not deny that there are many many issues and burdens on the state within it.
I don't deny that there are issues within the settled community in Ireland.
But you can't deny either that when it comes to social welfare dependency, criminality, property damage, tax evasion, and denying children educational opportunity, Travellers place a hugely disproportionate burden on the Irish state and its working taxpayers.
Just read the papers.There is a disquieting culture of violence in Ireland’s Travelling community. Monday’s shooting in west Dublin, in which a woman, an eight-month-old baby, and a boy (17) were injured by a shotgun blast is the latest example of inter-family feuding violence.
Such behaviour is not confined to Dublin. Last September, 50 gardaí raided a number of homes in Knocknaheeney, on the northside of Cork, after a shocking video was posted on social media, showing a number of heavily armed Travellers goading and threatening a rival group.
During the searches, gardaí seized a huge haul of firearms and ammunition, along with slash hooks, knives, and other assorted weapons.
In seizing those weapons, the gardaí prevented a violent escalation of a Traveller feud. Among the items were a sawn-off shotgun, a rifle with a telescopic sight, ammunition, swords, machetes, slash hooks, balaclavas, and pickaxe handles.
There have been other, equally horrifying videos, posted online, which show that the promotion of violence can be inter-generational. In 2015, in one video, a grandmother dances with a pump action shotgun in a caravan, while in another a young male Traveller goads his rivals and also brandishes a shotgun.
There's no point in trying to argue that these are just isolated incidents. This kind of violent antisocial behavior has become ingrained within Traveller culture. This is what members of the Gardai have to deal with on a daily basis, while figures like Tubridy wax lyrical about discrimination and racism from the safe confines of Dublin 4.0 -
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There is a marked difference in traveller representative help groups and awareness within representative groups.I haven't seen a single piece of evidence that it is working. Anything I have seen suggests the opposite, that the problem is getting worse.
I posted figures before showing improvements in education involvment and attainment.What does this mean? There are significant interactions going on all the time within any community.
There are many many groups interacting with travellers in difficulty and the more marginalised groups.I will criticise the Muslim culture for their attitude to women.
I will criticise African culture for FGM.
I will criticise Traveller culture for their attitude to women.
As for not castigating an entire community because of a few incidents, would that apply to not castigating the British people for the actions of a few rogue soldiers in the North?
Absolutely, anyone who blames all the British people for the actions of soldiers and the state apparatus in northern Ireland is a fool.0 -
Hattie Puny Litterbug wrote: »I don't deny that there are issues within the settled community in Ireland.
But you can't deny either that when it comes to social welfare dependency, criminality, property damage, tax evasion, and denying children educational opportunity, Travellers place a hugely disproportionate burden on the Irish state and its working taxpayers.
Just read the papers.
There's no point in trying to argue that these are just isolated incidents. This kind of violent antisocial behavior has become ingrained within Traveller culture -- this is what members of the Gardai have to deal with on a daily basis, while figures like Tubridy wax lyrical about discrimination and racism.
If there is crime, then crack down and use the law against that crime.
If there is social welfare fraud - crack down on fraud.
The same with every single other issue you raise - crack down on it across the board.
It is the only way. Unless you are suggesting a traveller only crack down?0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »If there is crime, then crack down and use the law against that crime.
If there is social welfare fraud - crack down on fraud.
The same with every single other issue you raise - crack down on it across the board.
It is the only way. Unless you are suggesting a traveller only crack down?
Clearly of course no one is saying that but at the moment there is a Traveller EXEMPT crackdown happening and it should not be.
If there is no wage coming in to the house, no means of support but a house was purchased with cash and there's a brand new 182 Merc in the drive - where are the CAB to investigate ?0 -
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It's hardly a slur to suggest anyone voted any way in an Irish referendum. In any case all I'm saying it's an interesting study to find out where the referendum No voters went in the presidential election. Perhaps they were distributed across the candidates, perhaps they voted for Freeman but if I were a betting man and had access to the data I would bet that those that voted no, particularly to repeal also voted for Casey. Simply because none of the credible political parties are a home for them. Of course this is just a hunch, my hunch.Roger Hassenforder wrote: »Thats some conjecture there bud!
Any evidence or is it just a little slur?
FWIW.
Me and my wide were yesx 2 and Casey.
I dont know anyone voting 'No' , i know a lot that voted for Casey.
That's not to say yes voters did not go for Casey as well in numbers, or that only No voters went for Casey, that's obviously silly.0 -
MrMusician18 wrote: »It's hardly a slur to suggest anyone voted any way in an Irish referendum. In any case all I'm saying it's an interesting study to find out where the referendum No voters went in the presidential election. Perhaps they were distributed across the candidates, perhaps they voted for Freeman but if I were a betting man and had access to the data I would bet that those that voted no, particularly to repeal also voted for Casey. Simply because none of the credible political parties are a home for them. Of course this is just a hunch, my hunch.
That's not to say yes voters did not go for Casey as well in numbers, or that only No voters went for Casey, that's obviously silly.
It's not interesting at all, unless you buy into the media narrative that all Casey voters are rural/racist/bigots.
In all likelihood, given his huge vote, more people who voted No in the Repeal referendum voted for Higgins than any other candidate, but is it meaningless.
There is only one fact that the Casey vote exposed, that is how out of step Irish media are with Irish people, it is nuts! The Repeal result only amplified that same disparity, only that time it was the more "correct" result which is why we didn't see insults flying off every opinion piece like we did this time!0 -
MrMusician18 wrote: »It's hardly a slur to suggest anyone voted any way in an Irish referendum. In any case all I'm saying it's an interesting study to find out where the referendum No voters went in the presidential election. Perhaps they were distributed across the candidates, perhaps they voted for Freeman but if I were a betting man and had access to the data I would bet that those that voted no, particularly to repeal also voted for Casey. Simply because none of the credible political parties are a home for them. Of course this is just a hunch, my hunch.
That's not to say yes voters did not go for Casey as well in numbers, or that only No voters went for Casey, that's obviously silly.
Its very insulting in fairness.
I kind of see your point above, but to suggest theres a likely commonality between the three is still a bit insulting to those who voted yes. There may well be some statistical correlation between variables who share a common factor, here the electorate. But i dont think its a given.
Voting "no" to SSM to me suggests someone very conservative, who would deny a human right to another, at no cost to them, probably grounded in a religious moralistic view. I cant see any other reason to vote "no". SSM is a bit of a no brainer. Anyone who voted no is a selfish cnut.
8th is a bit trickier, because theres a third party's human rights at stake (or only a bunch of cells), depending on your view. But while voting "no" may speak to a conservative moral stance, its mitigated/diluted by others views of life, human rights etc. I know very irreligious people who voted no, purely because of how they view life. I respect both views. I disagree with "no", but i understand their (most of them) view.
Voting Casey though, had absoluteky fcuk all to abortion or SSM. the only possible commonality is a religious conservative who shares some of his views on diaspora, homelessness, social welfare and last but not least, presedential salary.
And travellers. Nearly forgot!0 -
Hattie Puny Litterbug wrote: »What leads you to conclude that Casey voters are also opposed to same-sex marriage?
I have no problem whatsoever with two men or two women getting married. They are not placing any additional burden on society by marrying.
Like it or not, Traveller culture does place a significant extra burden on society. Margaret Cash, for example, is a product of Traveller culture. She was taken out of school at age 12, was married off at 15, got pregnant at 16, and now at age 28 she has seven children she can't support. She has 39 criminal convictions, has no academic or professional qualifications, and is essentially unemployable in modern society.
Are we really expected to recognize and respect a "culture" that denies children an education, that marries child brides off to their first cousins, that encourages feuding, bare-knuckle boxing, and other forms of anti-social behavior -- all while the taxpayer picks up the tab for the social welfare entitlements as well as the significant extra costs when it comes to policing, justice, incarceration, and damage to public property?
Casey voiced the frustration that many people feel about indulging Travellers' so-called "traditions" to the point where any criticism of them is verboten. He gave voice to what many people in the country think, and that's why he got 23 percent. It has nothing whatsoever to do with same-sex marriage.
I'd say most Casey voters have no issue with same sex marriage, it's when a Traveller is marrying his sister that they draw the line....0 -
Casey voters we're rural, his 4 biggest constituency votes were rural iirc, and lowest were affluent Dublin urban. I never suggested his votes were bigoted or racist or indeed any voters in any recent referendum we're motivated by bigotry or racism.Silentcorner wrote: »It's not interesting at all, unless you buy into the media narrative that all Casey voters are rural/racist/bigots.
In all likelihood, given his huge vote, more people who voted No in the Repeal referendum voted for Higgins than any other candidate, but is it meaningless.
There is only one fact that the Casey vote exposed, that is how out of step Irish media are with Irish people, it is nuts! The Repeal result only amplified that same disparity, only that time it was the more "correct" result which is why we didn't see insults flying off every opinion piece like we did this time!
I really do not think that No referendum voters went for a socialist advocate incumbent while still smarting from defeat only a few months ago, not in numbers anyway.
What I'm identifying is that if you look to repeal, there's a third of the voting electorate that do not have a political home partywise on social issues.
The question is can FF pirouette on Travellers to win these Casey No voters, as Casey Yes voters have plenty of places to go in an election with a wider choice.0 -
MrMusician18 wrote: »Casey voters we're rural, his 4 biggest constituency votes were rural iirc, and lowest were affluent Dublin urban. I never suggested his votes were bigoted or racist or indeed any voters in any recent referendum we're motivated by bigotry or racism.
I really do not think that No referendum voters went for a socialist advocate incumbent while still smarting from defeat only a few months ago, not in numbers anyway.
What I'm identifying is that if you look to repeal, there's a third of the voting electorate that do not have a political home partywise on social issues.
The question is can FF pirouette on Travellers to win these Casey No voters, as Casey Yes voters have plenty of places to go in an election with a wider choice.
I think you dont even realise youre doing it!
Repeal is too contencious to draw any sound conclusions. Theres a "moral" view as inforned by baby jesus and his priests, and theres a view on life independent of jesus. Theres the "trust women" movement, and the whole health/rape/faetal abnormality range. Its too diverse.
I'm irreligious, but view life as something very special for a few personal reasons, and thought long and hard about "no", in the end i voted "yes", not because of jesus, but rather who am I to force my views on my daughters (ironically, they reason for my views) and any other girl/woman who finds herself with an unwanted pregnancy.
Its the Casey voters who are up for grabs. Casey Yes/No doesmt matter, the YES/NO is done and dusted. I think we'll soon see an O'Cuiv led putsch in the Soldiers of Destiny, mMartin gets his knife in the back, and we see FF emerge with a strong Caseyish manifesto, with Casey in among them. Might be the first time i ever vote for the fcukers..0 -
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MrMusician18 wrote: »Casey voters we're rural, his 4 biggest constituency votes were rural iirc, and lowest were affluent Dublin urban. I never suggested his votes were bigoted or racist or indeed any voters in any recent referendum we're motivated by bigotry or racism.
I really do not think that No referendum voters went for a socialist advocate incumbent while still smarting from defeat only a few months ago, not in numbers anyway.
What I'm identifying is that if you look to repeal, there's a third of the voting electorate that do not have a political home partywise on social issues.
The question is can FF pirouette on Travellers to win these Casey No voters, as Casey Yes voters have plenty of places to go in an election with a wider choice.
His highest votes were in the areas of the country where there is a higher concentration of the traveller community, Rathkeale, is the best example.
Now, we either made a total mess of where we locate our poor traveller community and placed them beside the most backward/racist/bigots (I know you did not say that, but that is what is being implied by media outlets)
Or
We listen to what those people who experience traveller culture every day are telling us.
Or
Better still, since South Dublin is where our citizens are at their most liberal and tolerant (which I do not buy for one single second), it would make perfect sense to move a much higher concentration there. We all know, that that will not happen, we all know why it won't happen, I for one am sick of that part of Ireland defining the rest of us when actually, that part of Ireland is second only to the traveller community when it comes to social/educational/professional insularity!!!0 -
Silentcorner wrote: »Better still, since South Dublin is where our citizens are at their most liberal and tolerant (which I do not buy for one single second), it would make perfect sense to move a much higher concentration there.
Great idea. :pac: RTE is sitting on plenty of land -- let them use some of it to accommodate their favorite ethnic minority group.0 -
What's with the bizarre re-occurence of posters popping in to say the thread is done, should be closed etc.MrMusician18 wrote: »To be honest, I think this thread has now been overcooked and it's time to say it's done. The vast majority of posts are just responses to one or two posters anyway.
I've felt in recent years that there has been a growing unrepresented cohort of voters ripe for the taking. When you look at marriage equality some 40% voted against, 33% against repeal and then 23% for Casey. While the turnouts obviously vary, I would bet there is a good chance that many of those Casey voters voted No in the two referendums. When these voters look to political parties, there is no mainstream home for them.
An interesting study would be how many Casey voters we're both historically FF and no to repeal.
I said earlier that I expect FF to be the most nimble of the parties and will try policies that address the Casey remarks in a way that is right wing. Martin will have to be dumped for this change in direction. If they don't, then their clothes will most definitely be stolen by independents with no qualms about speaking their mind.
The next general election will be fun, all thanks to Casey.0 -
Well, looks like they're gearing up for festivities in Rathkeale...
Armed Gardai and a HSE triage clinic.
Is this a culture worthy of anything but elimination?
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/garda-to-deploy-armed-officers-hse-reveal-triage-clinic-to-be-part-of-rathkeale-festive-preparations-884448.html0 -
Roger Hassenforder wrote: »Well, looks like they're gearing up for festivities in Rathkeale...
Armed Gardai and a HSE triage clinic.
Is this a culture worthy of anything but elimination?
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/garda-to-deploy-armed-officers-hse-reveal-triage-clinic-to-be-part-of-rathkeale-festive-preparations-884448.html
To quote the great Leonard Cohen:
....'take the only tree that's left, and stuff it up the hole in your culture..'0 -
The Gardai plan for Rathkeale is the first official response to the huge vote Casey got.
It’s about time the armed a Gardai were called on and hopefully this is the start of our security services drawing a line that if crossed means consequences.
I feel proud of our Gardaí tonight, at long last the PC crowd have been put back in their box and now the Gardai who are willing will be able to keep order on this minority of people used to doing what they like. Go away Tubridy and the rest of the pampered Dublin 4 elite, you are a drain on taxpayers who have no choice but to pay your wages.
Ireland will be a better place now thanks to Peter Casey and not that poet in the Áras.0 -
Roger Hassenforder wrote: »Well, looks like they're gearing up for festivities in Rathkeale...
Armed Gardai and a HSE triage clinic.
Is this a culture worthy of anything but elimination?
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/garda-to-deploy-armed-officers-hse-reveal-triage-clinic-to-be-part-of-rathkeale-festive-preparations-884448.html
Guess what?
There'll be no comments about this from Pavee Point nor the traveller apologists.
Decent, tax paying, law abiding residents of Rathkeale are prisoners in their own homes every Christmas.0 -
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The Gardai plan for Rathkeale is the first official response to the huge vote Casey got.
It’s about time the armed a Gardai were called on and hopefully this is the start of our security services drawing a line that if crossed means consequences.
I feel proud of our Gardaí tonight, at long last the PC crowd have been put back in their box and now the Gardai who are willing will be able to keep order on this minority of people used to doing what they like. Go away Tubridy and the rest of the pampered Dublin 4 elite, you are a drain on taxpayers who have no choice but to pay your wages.
Ireland will be a better place now thanks to Peter Casey and not that poet in the Áras.
They did the same last year actually.0 -
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They did the same last year actually.
Groundhog day.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/armed-gardai-to-patrol-rathkeale-during-christmas-influx-of-travellers-462690.html
Similar plan last year and it worked so fair play to them.0
This discussion has been closed.
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