Waterford becoming Munsters second city.

callaway92

yop wrote: »

Mod Note: OP - If you want to make this a proper discussion then maybe interact on it, I've seen some similar posts there on the Waterford and Galway threads, so if you're instigating a proper discussion then fair enough.

One of the more bizarre posts I’ve ever seen

mdmix

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I'd just point out that even if ABP give permission, the Galway ring road is likely to be stuck in the courts for years. The road is optimistically unlikey to be open before 2025 and that's if we don't have another crash. It's all well and good having plans, but until something is built, it's all pie in the sky.

And Limerick has been far from short of private investment in recent years. FDI in recent years has been huge. Public transport is important, but it isn't the be all and end all. I very much doubt that Galway will have overtaken Limerick by 2030.

I agree with your fist point but that shouldn’t excuse Limerick (or Galway) council from putting together a proper development strategy, it would in-fact make it more likely that development will happen.

Limerick is doing well in a national context. We are recovering from a low base and are riding a wave of investment which will inevitably dry up. There are very obvious problems with the current development of the city, particularly in transport and housing. Cork, Dublin, Galway and Waterford have taken best international practice in these areas in order to continue to develope. Limerick unfortunately has taken best international practice and twisted it and bended it to fit the same failed policies that ended up crippling us in the last recession. I think the next recession will be just as unkind for Limerick.

Harry Palmr

Sawyer Unkempt Vigilante wrote: »

Now it adds up.

It doesn't I live in Waterford.

Cookiemunster

mdmix wrote: »

There are very obvious problems with the current development of the city, particularly in transport and housing. Cork, Dublin, Galway and Waterford have taken best international practice in these areas in order to continue to develope.

Care to provide some examples?

Silentcorner

mdmix wrote: »

I agree with your fist point but that shouldn’t excuse Limerick (or Galway) council from putting together a proper development strategy, it would in-fact make it more likely that development will happen.

Limerick is doing well in a national context. We are recovering from a low base and are riding a wave of investment which will inevitably dry up. There are very obvious problems with the current development of the city, particularly in transport and housing. Cork, Dublin, Galway and Waterford have taken best international practice in these areas in order to continue to develope. Limerick unfortunately has taken best international practice and twisted it and bended it to fit the same failed policies that ended up crippling us in the last recession. I think the next recession will be just as unkind for Limerick.

i don't think that has any merit.

Last time round, at the beginning of an economic collapse nationwide, we had 4-5,000 jobs lost through Dell and the feeder companies, devastating the region.

There is not one closure could have that kind of impact again.

In the meantime, unlike Cork or Galway we are not dependent on one major employer or one/two major industries. We have huge diversity in the investment that has been attracted.

That investment has been attracted, by a number of factors, but the very unique and dynamic relationship between all 3 rd level Institutes (from UL-LIT-LCFE to Industry participation in creating talent pipelines) which was a direct result of the heavy blow the city suffered in 2009, these are lessons not yet learnt in Cork or Galway, Waterford, in the absence of a meaningful 3 level institute can never compete with the amount of talent/trained labour currently in our local education system, there is nothing to suggest that this pipeline will dry up, in fact what we should see is companies scaling up employment levels as well as attracting new investments.

Outside of FDI, locally owned companies perform much better than some realise, indeed, in the tech start up sphere, Limerick tech start ups raise in capital, much more than tech start ups in Cork and Galway, who knows what these companies become, but we are certainly not lagging behind any region in creating major locally owned employers down the line.

From a congestion point of view, Limerick offers comfortably less commuting times, affording our workers more downtime.

Christy Browne

I'm from Waterford but go to UL, Limerick is miles ahead but Waterford will hopefully be on the up in the next few years.

A stronger Munster benefits everyone.

mdmix

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Care to provide some examples?

Planned urban sprawl with housing in Mungret and NDR

redlead

Waterford and the south east region which doesn't even exist anymore is constantly being undermined by the government, be it with health or education. There is no chance it will ever come close to Limerick. Galway will definitely over take Limerick at some stage though. It's a clear regional capital and is always favoured by the government.

The county and provincial system in Ireland is what holds a lot back in Ireland. For instance having a strong Waterford as a regional centre would benefit a lot of people in Kilkenny, South Tipp and Wexford but they are too small minded to realise it. This is why Galway is so successful, they have no one constantly trying to undermine them. Limerick are more and more going to get undermined by the expansion of Cork and Galway, you are just going to be stuck in the middle and get chipped away.

Cookiemunster

mdmix wrote: »

Planned urban sprawl with housing in Mungret and NDR

Of other cities doing it properly. But you knew what I meant.

Silentcorner

mdmix wrote: »

Planned urban sprawl with housing in Mungret and NDR

While I agree with the sentiment, you are aware, that this city is way behind when it comes to urban sprawl? Just because the Fg/Lab government quietly canned the enquiry into planning irregularities in Cork and Galway doesn't mean those areas won't be dealing with the legacy of those irregularities for decades to come, just like Dublin is!

I can't see how Galway would be able to out grow Limerick given the current micro/macro elements required for growth for both cities, I can see how people might think it has already happened or will happen such is the perception, no more than Limerick will never be able to outgrow Cork to even half the gap in size between the two cities.

Silentcorner

redlead wrote: »

Waterford and the south east region which doesn't even exist anymore is constantly being undermined by the government, be it with health or education. There is no chance it will ever come close to Limerick. Galway will definitely over take Limerick at some stage though. It's a clear regional capital and is always favoured by the government.

The county and provincial system in Ireland is what holds a lot back in Ireland. For instance having a strong Waterford as a regional centre would benefit a lot of people in Kilkenny, South Tipp and Wexford but they are too small minded to realise it. This is why Galway is so successful, they have no one constantly trying to undermine them. Limerick are more and more going to get undermined by the expansion of Cork and Galway, you are just going to be stuck in the middle and get chipped away.

The absence of a University has allowed Galway overtake Waterford over the last three decades, until Central Government rectifies this, Waterford will always struggle to compete, which is a disgrace in my opinion and just further evidence that our Central Government have no inclination to even to attempt to reverse the highly centralised and dysfunctional nature of this state!

WillieMason

redlead wrote: »

Waterford and the south east region which doesn't even exist anymore is constantly being undermined by the government, be it with health or education. There is no chance it will ever come close to Limerick. Galway will definitely over take Limerick at some stage though. It's a clear regional capital and is always favoured by the government.

The county and provincial system in Ireland is what holds a lot back in Ireland. For instance having a strong Waterford as a regional centre would benefit a lot of people in Kilkenny, South Tipp and Wexford but they are too small minded to realise it. This is why Galway is so successful, they have no one constantly trying to undermine them. Limerick are more and more going to get undermined by the expansion of Cork and Galway, you are just going to be stuck in the middle and get chipped away.

Good points but Galway has a huge advantage over limerick. Ireland is split into two regions in european .munster/leinter and connacht/3 ulster countries. When you look at the stats munster/leinter are one of the wealthiest areas in the hole eu but connacht/3 ulster are among the poorest. the EU will encourage change in this by lending more to the region this is why the tuam gort rd was done they got easy funding and this will continue galway will expanse quickly.In munster/leinter dublin/cork will get most speading

Cookiemunster

WillieMason wrote: »

Good points but Galway has a huge advantage over limerick. Ireland is split into two regions in european .munster/leinter and connacht/3 ulster countries. When you look at the stats munster/leinter are one of the wealthiest areas in the hole eu but connacht/3 ulster are among the poorest. the EU will encourage change in this by lending more to the region this is why the tuam gort rd was done they got easy funding and this will continue galway will expanse quickly.In munster/leinter dublin/cork will get most speading

Actually the EU has given Limerick council €180m in loans in the last 12 months. Maybe your theory needs a bit of a rework?

And the M17/18 being built had nothing to do with the EU funding. It was planned before the recession and had planning permission before the crash. Afterwards when there was money to start building again it was ready to go. If the M20 had been at the same stage it would have been built before the M17/18 as it is of higher national importance.

I do honestly think at this stage that you have some sort of issue with Limerick.

zulutango

Silentcorner wrote:

While I agree with the sentiment, you are aware, that this city is way behind when it comes to urban sprawl?

We seem to be doing our best to catch up. The LNDR and Mungret will lead to the same ****ty urban sprawl that is so problematic in Galway. The Council seem to think developing these areas (all development equates to progress!) is a positive when it's actually detrimental to the city and region's ability to compete in the long run.

Stopitwillya

Waterford man here. Great work being done in my home county and exciting times ahead. Waterford city is definitely going to grow but then again so are all cities. Limerick is a great city, love going up there for all the Munster games but only wish the road up was a bit better. One thing Waterford doesn't have is proper political clout. Hospital and 3rd level ignored by successive governments. Compare that to limerick with UL and LIT. IDA has been a disgrace down here as regards attracting multinationals. Waterford is going to grow all right but until these issues are fixed we will always be playing catch up to Ireland's other cities.

Silentcorner

Stopitwillya wrote: »

Waterford man here. Great work being done in my home county and exciting times ahead. Waterford city is definitely going to grow but then again so are all cities. Limerick is a great city, love going up there for all the Munster games but only wish the road up was a bit better. One thing Waterford doesn't have is proper political clout. Hospital and 3rd level ignored by successive governments. Compare that to limerick with UL and LIT. IDA has been a disgrace down here as regards attracting multinationals. Waterford is going to grow all right but until these issues are fixed we will always be playing catch up to Ireland's other cities.

I wish I shared your optimism for our regional cities, apart from a slick plan peddled recently until we start dismantling power in Central Government regional political clout is meaningless, there has been plenty of high ranking politicians from the regions but you'll find they are relatively impotent also, apart from funding a few tourist attractions and festivals there is little else they can do.

The regional cities will grow along the lines they have over the last 30-40 years and no faster, this will not be enough to counter the much greater growth in the Greater Dublin region so by 2040 we will see the continued imbalance in this state, which is the most centralised state/economy in Europe.

The quality of life in Waterford will improve as it will in the regional cities, but the size of each city will only vary by single digit percentages year on year.

Waterford has a very impressive Industrial and Cultural heritage and you can see how more and more Irish people are beginning to appreciate it, who knows, maybe Irish media will wake up to it also....but I doubt it!!

Glenomra

Most cities grow through expansion rather than any internal development. For instance it was the recent boundary extension that saw Limerick reclaim its position a s the Republic's third largest city. Limerick will grow further and significantly when Westbury\Shannon Banks etc become part of the city. And I am not looking forward to same, as a Clareman. But its inevitable. Waterford also, should be allowed to expand into its natural catchment area, in South Kilkenny. Limerick City will grow more rapidly than Galway imo. In Galway today, enjoyable visit but its a large town, Limerick is more of a city.

WillieMason

Glenomra wrote: »

Most cities grow through expansion rather than any internal development. For instance it was the recent boundary extension that saw Limerick reclaim its position a s the Republic's third largest city. Limerick will grow further and significantly when Westbury\Shannon Banks etc become part of the city. And I am not looking forward to same, as a Clareman. But its inevitable. Waterford also, should be allowed to expand into its natural catchment area, in South Kilkenny. Limerick City will grow more rapidly than Galway imo. In Galway today, enjoyable visit but its a large town, Limerick is more of a city.

Will the Cork extension go ahead ?

Glenomra

Imo it's inevitable. The future in Ireland is increasingly about the cities. I think the recent legislation where one pint puts a driver off the road is a body blow for rural life. A change that hasn't got much attention but will prove devastating. From now on a driver cannot afford even one pint with a meal or watching a match on TV etc. Many city people who moved to the countryside will relocate back to the city. At least that's my expectation.

mdmix

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Of other cities doing it properly. But you knew what I meant.

Have a look at the Waterford north quays plan for a start

mdmix

Silentcorner wrote: »

While I agree with the sentiment, you are aware, that this city is way behind when it comes to urban sprawl? .

When Mungret gets built and if the NDR ever gets built we will be caught up, my point was poor future planning, not just past mistakes.

Silentcorner wrote: »

I can't see how Galway would be able to out grow Limerick given the current micro/macro elements required for growth for both cities, I can see how people might think it has already happened or will happen such is the perception, no more than Limerick will never be able to outgrow Cork to even half the gap in size between the two cities

CSO stats for 2016 show Galway and limerick cities had the same number working population (less than 200 different). The Ireland 2040 even plans on Galway growing at a faster rate than limerick. Galway 3rd level produces more graduates per year and retains them. Most of the graduates from limerick end up in Dublin.

Silentcorner

mdmix wrote: »

When Mungret gets built and if the NDR ever gets built we will be caught up, my point was poor future planning, not just past mistakes.




CSO stats for 2016 show Galway and limerick cities had the same number working population (less than 200 different). The Ireland 2040 even plans on Galway growing at a faster rate than limerick. Galway 3rd level produces more graduates per year and retains them. Most of the graduates from limerick end up in Dublin.

No, your point was that Limerick will suffer a similar deeper recession again just like what happened last time....you haven't explained how that could happen? Or are you forgetting that while we got a wallop in 2009, both Cork and Galway got wallops over the decades also (Cork in the 80s and Galway in the 90s), the joys of being a regional city!!!

You pointed to transport and housing in Cork/Galway and Waterford as a reason for this.

Limerick is home to the countries most affordable homes (relative to wages), which makes Limerick a more viable option for people living here and the more attractive commuting times.

You have failed to appreciate the long term damage done to Cork and Galway in terms of poor planning which compromises your assertion, of course the Government ignores this, they were part responsible for the mess!

You claim that the current wave of investment will dry up, which there is no evidence of or for, which only reveals your lack of understanding as to what drove that investment over the last number of years in the first place.

Does the CSO stats include Shannon and the industry and jobs present there in the Limerick figure?


Does the governments 2040 plan, which I don't take seriously at all by the way, address the complete clusterf##k that has been Galway City urban planning and the impact it will have on the cities ability to grow to 120,000 people or whatever they are projecting?

This region is facing challenges, I believe the fact that the Local Authority has positioned itself as the developer in chief as such has had an negative impact in private investment, this may not stall development, but it will stall private development, none of us know how successful the LA will be in the coming years.

We also do like to think of ourselves as the poorer relation when it comes to regional development, but we do enjoy some of the highest levels of disposable income, the shortest commuting times, the most diverse mix of FDI, you think that we will suffer another devastating recession in the coming years because of housing and transport, I disagree.

Cookiemunster

mdmix wrote: »

Have a look at the Waterford north quays plan for a start

So you're talking about a private development paid for by dodgy Saudi money that basically blackmailed the government into paying for the transport and pedestrian elements with the threat of the project not going ahead?

Not exactly Waterford Council taking the best international practice to improve things. Now have you any actual examples of local authorities in the other cities doing this better than Limerick? Because you're fooling yourself if you think any of them are any better than Limerick CCC.

mdmix

Cookiemunster wrote: »

So you're talking about a private development paid for by dodgy Saudi money that basically blackmailed the government into paying for the transport and pedestrian elements with the threat of the project not going ahead?

Not exactly Waterford Council taking the best international practice to improve things. Now have you any actual examples of local authorities in the other cities doing this better than Limerick? Because you're fooling yourself if you think any of them are any better than Limerick CCC.

here is the link to the waterford north quays project, it doesnt go into the "dodgy Saudi money" or black mail but instead has enviromental assessments, traffic/transport assessments along with tangible targets to assess achievement.

if you want to continue to deflect then perhaps we can talk about John Morans role in 2030 while head of departement of finance or his role in the loans from EIB, but maybe we could just stick to the issue of planning.

http://www.waterfordcouncil.ie/waterfordnorthquayssdz/index.htm

can you point to any plans from limerick council with this level of detail?

zulutango

Glenomra wrote: »

Imo it's inevitable. The future in Ireland is increasingly about the cities. I think the recent legislation where one pint puts a driver off the road is a body blow for rural life. A change that hasn't got much attention but will prove devastating. From now on a driver cannot afford even one pint with a meal or watching a match on TV etc. Many city people who moved to the countryside will relocate back to the city. At least that's my expectation.

The collapse of the broadband rollout won't help either. But rural Ireland has been living on borrowed time for a few decades. Scattered and isolated developments have done huge damage to the villages and towns. The census stats bear this out. There has been a depopulation of the towns and villages while at the same time the number of people living in rural Ireland has increased significantly. This is causing major social, economic and environmental problems. The only way to save rural Ireland is by investing in the villages and towns and in the transport links between them. We should be increasing the incentives to live in these places and simultaneously decreasing the incentives to live in one-off homes.

panda100

mdmix wrote: »

if you want to continue to deflect then perhaps we can talk about John Morans role in 2030 while head of departement of finance or his role in the loans from EIB

Care to elaborate?

dominatinMC

zulutango wrote: »

The collapse of the broadband rollout won't help either. But rural Ireland has been living on borrowed time for a few decades. Scattered and isolated developments have done huge damage to the villages and towns. The census stats bear this out. There has been a depopulation of the towns and villages while at the same time the number of people living in rural Ireland has increased significantly. This is causing major social, economic and environmental problems. The only way to save rural Ireland is by investing in the villages and towns and in the transport links between them. We should be increasing the incentives to live in these places and simultaneously decreasing the incentives to live in one-off homes.

Although slightly off-topic here, I think the future for rural Ireland will be divided into "tourist towns" and "commuter towns". Clearly, not everyone wants to live in the city, but the same people will want some of the infrastructure (broadband, etc.) and amenities (grocery shops, hairdressers, garages, etc.) of cities. In this regard, certain towns will have to be prioritised by the government and private investors, and other neighbouring towns will probably suffer as a result. The other direction for rural Ireland, in my opinion, is for certain towns to capitalise on tourism (the likes of Adare and Dingle, for example). Rural Ireland is far from dead, but it will need to be managed in a careful manner to ensure its survival as more and more people migrate to cities seeking work.

Cookiemunster

mdmix wrote: »

here is the link to the waterford north quays project, it doesnt go into the "dodgy Saudi money" or black mail but instead has enviromental assessments, traffic/transport assessments along with tangible targets to assess achievement.

if you want to continue to deflect then perhaps we can talk about John Morans role in 2030 while head of departement of finance or his role in the loans from EIB, but maybe we could just stick to the issue of planning.

http://www.waterfordcouncil.ie/waterfordnorthquayssdz/index.htm

can you point to any plans from limerick council with this level of detail?

Listen. Limerick CCC is run appallingly. I'm not arguing against that so I don't know what I'm deflecting. You seem to think that other local authorities are better run. I've news for you, they're not. Having a good website doesn't make it so. Local government across the country needs to be ripped apart and replaced with something that's fit for the 21st century and isn't totally dependent on central government.

And I have no idea how you can compare EIB loans that have to be repaid with Saudi petro dollars. The EIB is an institution that has oversight from the EU. Saudi Arabia is an authoritarian state with awful human rights issues which isn't too worried about international law or oversight. And I really don't like the idea of any Irish authority getting into bed with anyone from that country.

zulutango

I think most of us are on the same page.

The development of Galway has been a ****-up and not the model Limerick should follow.
The popularity of Galway masks the massive challenges it faces in terms of development and expansion.
Limerick appears to be following the Galway model despite the evidence that it doesn't work.
Limerick is a great place to live but could be developed in a more sensible way.
Local Government in Ireland needs major reform.

dominatinMC

zulutango wrote: »

I think most of us are on the same page.

The development of Galway has been a ****-up and not the model Limerick should follow.
The popularity of Galway masks the massive challenges it faces in terms of development and expansion.
Limerick appears to be following the Galway model despite the evidence that it doesn't work.
Limerick is a great place to live but could be developed in a more sensible way.
Local Government in Ireland needs major reform.

+1 Nicely summarised.