Waterford becoming Munsters second city.

leakyboots

Always enjoy reading your views zulutango, even if sometimes I don't agree with them (I usually do). Have you considered entering the political arena and try and make a difference in some way?

WillieMason

zulutango wrote: »

I think most of us are on the same page.

The development of Galway has been a ****-up and not the model Limerick should follow.
The popularity of Galway masks the massive challenges it faces in terms of development and expansion.
Limerick appears to be following the Galway model despite the evidence that it doesn't work.
Limerick is a great place to live but could be developed in a more sensible way.
Local Government in Ireland needs major reform.

How is limerick following the galway model?

cooperguy

I think Galway getting that ringroad built is key. It takes a bunch of traffic out of the city centre and will free up some space and capacity to improve the public transport infrastructure (which is also planned).

From a Limerick point of view, I think Waterford would have a long way to go to pass Limerick out. Not something likely in the foreseeable future

notharrypotter

When I looked at the Wikipedia link in post 23 I was somewhat intrigued.
A city needs to be looked at in terms of its Urban area, Metropolitan area, County and Province rather than its urban area alone.
So using Wikipedia
Urban Metropolitan County Province
Cork 208,669 399,216 542,196 1,280,020 (Munster)
Limerick 94,192 162,413 194,899 1,280,020 (Munster)
Galway 79,934 Not given 258,058 550,742 (Connacht)
Waterford 53,504 82,963 113,795 1,280,020 (Munster)In absolute terms NO City in Ireland will catch Dublin any time soon.


Oranmore/Carnmore/Claregalway all very small in the grand scheme of things and will not contribute much to Galway Metropolitan area.

Galway lacks the critical mass of population to threaten Limericks position as 3rd city.

For interest the population of county Tipperary is half as big AGAIN as Waterford.

I would be tempted to throw both Ennis, Shannon,Tipp town and Nenagh into the Greater Limerick too.
Giving Tuam, Athenry, Loughrea and Headford to Galway.

While Carrick and maybe Clonmel and Kilkenny I would give to Waterford.

Mc Love

cooperguy wrote: »

I think Galway getting that ringroad built is key. It takes a bunch of traffic out of the city centre and will free up some space and capacity to improve the public transport infrastructure (which is also planned).

From a Limerick point of view, I think Waterford would have a long way to go to pass Limerick out. Not something likely in the foreseeable future

No it just adds more traffic. More roads doesnt mean less gridlock. They need to encourage more people use public transport, provide safer cycling infrastructure and entice motorists to switch from the car to the bike as if improving your health isnt enticement enough.

Harry Palmr

notharrypotter wrote: »

When I looked at the Wikipedia link in post 23 I was somewhat intrigued.
A city needs to be looked at in terms of its Urban area, Metropolitan area, County and Province rather than its urban area alone.
So using Wikipedia
Urban Metropolitan County Province
Cork 208,669 399,216 542,196 1,280,020 (Munster)
Limerick 94,192 162,413 194,899 1,280,020 (Munster)
Galway 79,934 Not given 258,058 550,742 (Connacht)
Waterford 53,504 82,963 113,795 1,280,020 (Munster)In absolute terms NO City in Ireland will catch Dublin any time soon.


Oranmore/Carnmore/Claregalway all very small in the grand scheme of things and will not contribute much to Galway Metropolitan area.

Galway lacks the critical mass of population to threaten Limericks position as 3rd city.

For interest the population of county Tipperary is half as big AGAIN as Waterford.

I would be tempted to throw both Ennis, Shannon,Tipp town and Nenagh into the Greater Limerick too.

Giving Tuam, Athenry, Loughrea and Headford to Galway.

While Carrick and maybe Clonmel and Kilkenny I would give to Waterford.

it's also more than twice the size 4,305 km2 v 1,857 km2 and they haven't a town worth a damn in scale for whatever historical reason. Attempting to drag in town 50kms away (Kilkenny, Clonmel) feels like a literal and metaphorical reach to be honest. The sphere of influence of a city will be dictated by it's size but also it's facilities - got a university? - big reach, got a university hospital? big reach, got a main IDA office? big reach, got an international airport? big reach and so on. As Waterford lacks a university (don't even mention the BS University for the South East) and an large runway airport and is on the second tier for IDA influence we're always going to be lagging behind Limerick. It's going to be private investment we rely on - namely the money of Fawaz Alhokair (NQP) and Seamus Walsh (Ard Ri, Bilberry).

zulutango

leakyboots wrote: »

Always enjoy reading your views zulutango, even if sometimes I don't agree with them (I usually do). Have you considered entering the political arena and try and make a difference in some way?

Thank you for that endorsement! There's many great contributors on this site, and, while we sometimes differ, I think most of us want what's best for Limerick. As for politics, it would be very difficult to do because of my work.

dominatinMC

zulutango wrote: »

Thank you for that endorsement! There's many great contributors on this site, and, while we sometimes differ, I think most of us want what's best for Limerick. As for politics, it would be very difficult to do because of my work.

Yep, that's the essence of it really. I think most of the posters on here would do a better job of running Limerick than the council currently do! A damning indictment of the council, truth be told!

Glenomra

I think many posters don't fully realise the transformation of Limerick currently underway. Granted the city centre needs much more but within the current city boundary there is very significant investment, is it four large schools,, film studio, university, hospital, industry including northern trust, regeneron etc. Galway, not to mention Waterford are not enjoying similar investment. Now, if only the opera centre etc. .............

cooperguy

Mc Love wrote: »

No it just adds more traffic. More roads doesnt mean less gridlock. They need to encourage more people use public transport, provide safer cycling infrastructure and entice motorists to switch from the car to the bike as if improving your health isnt enticement enough.

Currently there simply isnt space for more bus lanes, bike lanes etc. Every road is at max capacity. There is nowhere to put more public transport or make it more reliable. An orbital route removes cross city traffic and allows moving on to the next stage of public transport improvements with bus prioritisation etc.

zulutango

cooperguy wrote: »

Currently there simply isnt space for more bus lanes, bike lanes etc. Every road is at max capacity. There is nowhere to put more public transport or make it more reliable. An orbital route removes cross city traffic and allows moving on to the next stage of public transport improvements with bus prioritisation etc.

The roads are not at max capacity. We could increase the capacity of our roads to carry more people quite easily, without building any new roads, just by switching some car lanes to bus and/or cycle lanes. When road space is allocated to cars it isn't very good at getting a lot of people into or across a city. Cars carry very few people for the amount of road space they take up. When road space is allocated to busses and bikes ahead of cars it's far more effective. There's scope on many of Limerick's roads to switch them from car priority to bus or bike priority. It would reduce congestion and get more people into and through the city centre, i.e. it would benefit everybody. School traffic is the biggest cause of peak time congestion, which we know because traffic becomes light when the schools are off. We could significantly reduce this congestion quite easily by re-allocating some road space to segregrated cycle infrastructure such that it would be safe and easy for kids to cycle to school, just like they used to. Of course it wouldn't only be kids who would use the cycle lanes. Many adults would too. 70% of all journeys are 3km or less, i.e. very cyclable. And, of course, the people who have no alternative but to drive would greatly benefit by having freed up roads.

yop

zulutango wrote: »

The roads are not at max capacity. We could increase the capacity of our roads to carry more people quite easily, without building any new roads, just by switching some car lanes to bus and/or cycle lanes. When road space is allocated to cars it isn't very good at getting a lot of people into or across a city. Cars carry very few people for the amount of road space they take up. When road space is allocated to busses and bikes ahead of cars it's far more effective. There's scope on many of Limerick's roads to switch them from car priority to bus or bike priority. It would reduce congestion and get more people into and through the city centre, i.e. it would benefit everybody. School traffic is the biggest cause of peak time congestion, which we know because traffic becomes light when the schools are off. We could significantly reduce this congestion quite easily by re-allocating some road space to segregrated cycle infrastructure such that it would be safe and easy for kids to cycle to school, just like they used to. Of course it wouldn't only be kids who would use the cycle lanes. Many adults would too. 70% of all journeys are 3km or less, i.e. very cyclable. And, of course, the people who have no alternative but to drive would greatly benefit by having freed up roads.

I've driven Mayo to Galway on a daily basis, single car occupant for probably 99% of the 7 years I've been doing it. Id say that 70%+ of those 3500 cars (think it was the census which had that figure) are single occupant.
I cycled it once, nearly got killed.
But on all the roads from the Curraghline in, there is zero cycle paths and no option to put one either as they roads are too narrow. I've seen 2 cyclists regulary cycle in the curraghline, they back up traffic for possibly 500-700m at a time as the cars can't pass.
Most of the people I work with then live within 5km of work, but only 2 of the say 100 of them cycle in, that is solely down to the roads not be suitable to cycle.

I lived in Limerick then for 6 years, I cycled once from Castletroy (lived besides Seans shop) to Dell in Raheen. That was nuts. So then I was again a single car driver, taken 40 mins (1999-2001) each way, while I would have cycled it in less.
So definitely if the options are there they would be taken. Some of the paths on that route were too wide, could be narrowed up and taken some of the road to create a cycle path.
It would empty out a hell of a lot of cars.
Or provide a park and ride option outside the towns, reducing the drive lanes into the city and making them bus lanes.

Having lived in Limerick for 6 and lived in Galway for 3, working there now for 9 I think Limerick is further ahead in infra, size and amenities.

WillieMason

yop wrote: »

I've driven Mayo to Galway on a daily basis, single car occupant for probably 99% of the 7 years I've been doing it. Id say that 70%+ of those 3500 cars (think it was the census which had that figure) are single occupant.
I cycled it once, nearly got killed.
But on all the roads from the Curraghline in, there is zero cycle paths and no option to put one either as they roads are too narrow. I've seen 2 cyclists regulary cycle in the curraghline, they back up traffic for possibly 500-700m at a time as the cars can't pass.
Most of the people I work with then live within 5km of work, but only 2 of the say 100 of them cycle in, that is solely down to the roads not be suitable to cycle.

I lived in Limerick then for 6 years, I cycled once from Castletroy (lived besides Seans shop) to Dell in Raheen. That was nuts. So then I was again a single car driver, taken 40 mins (1999-2001) each way, while I would have cycled it in less.
So definitely if the options are there they would be taken. Some of the paths on that route were too wide, could be narrowed up and taken some of the road to create a cycle path.
It would empty out a hell of a lot of cars.
Or provide a park and ride option outside the towns, reducing the drive lanes into the city and making them bus lanes.

Having lived in Limerick for 6 and lived in Galway for 3, working there now for 9 I think Limerick is further ahead in infra, size and amenities.

Cycle paths are a great idea but it rains so much on the west coast its never going to be like Amsterdam or Copenhagen

LeoD

cooperguy wrote: »

I think Galway getting that ringroad built is key. It takes a bunch of traffic out of the city centre and will free up some space and capacity to improve the public transport infrastructure (which is also planned).

According to the Galway's own Transport Strategy report,
- 60% of trips begin and end inside the city
- 37% of trips begin outside/inside the city and end inside/outside the city
- only 3% of trips begin and end outside the city

That means 97% of trips take place in and around the city, either partially or wholly. A bypass will do nothing to alleviate this problem. When the bypass is complete, 97% of traffic will still want to be in and around the city. Do we think people are somehow going to park their cars on the bypass and bus/cycle into Galway from there?

LeoD

WillieMason wrote: »

Cycle paths are a great idea but it rains so much on the west coast its never going to be like Amsterdam or Copenhagen

Average number of precipitation days/year (more than 0.1mm rain)
- Limerick: 159
- Galway: 170
- Amsterdam: 132 (+26 snowy days)
- Copenhagen: 157 (+21 snowy days)

(source: the ever reliable Wikipedia)

zulutango

Would you go way with your facts!

panda100

WillieMason wrote: »

Cycle paths are a great idea but it rains so much on the west coast its never going to be like Amsterdam or Copenhagen

I cycle pretty much everywhere in Limerick, to work, uni, into town. I say rain has been an issue for me about 12 times in the last year. As leoD pointed out the weather in Limerick is pretty comparable with cycling cities.

LeoD

Of course, when it does rain and you're on a bike, it's not the most pleasurable experience - nor is it the end of the world. It is important however for designers of cycle networks in this country to understand that cyclists are exposed to the elements so stopping and starting every 100-200m at traffic signals/junctions for whatever reason is not conducive to utility cycling and will deter people from cycling. If you could cycle 2-3km through the city and only stop 2-3 times at most, you are going to spend a lot less energy and a lot less time sitting in the wind/cold/rain.

Cookiemunster

LeoD wrote: »

Of course, when it does rain and you're on a bike, it's not the most pleasurable experience - nor is it the end of the world. It is important however for designers of cycle networks in this country to understand that cyclists are exposed to the elements so stopping and starting every 100-200m at traffic signals/junctions for whatever reason is not conducive to utility cycling and will deter people from cycling. If you could cycle 2-3km through the city and only stop 2-3 times at most, you are going to spend a lot less energy and a lot less time sitting in the wind/cold/rain.

And how do you propose to do that seeing as traveling through any city means crossing multiple junctions at short intervals.

LeoD

Cookiemunster wrote: »

And how do you propose to do that seeing as traveling through any city means crossing multiple junctions at short intervals.

Good question! There are a number of things that can be done. One of the basic things would be to ensure that any cycleways are kept free of parked motor vehicles (not a problem in Limerick today as there are no cycleways in the city)! This might seem like an enforcement issue but design can also help. On non-signalised junctions, priority can be given to cycle traffic. One way streets should include contraflow cycleways to offer cyclists a more direct, shorter route. Where signalised junctions are necessary, introduce a 'Green Wave'. This means co-ordinating the traffic lights to always be green for cyclists travelling at 20kmh. This speed will slow down the bike racers who can harm other people's safety, or at least their perception of safety. This system has been around for 10 years at least in Denmark and Holland. Cyclists should be able to bypass any signalised junction when turning left (again, standard design in some other countries for equivalent right turns). As you can see, it takes a number of measures but it is achievable. If we only make a half arsed effort at it though it will fail - like tackling in rugby, you've got to go all in or you're gonna get hurt. It is also important though to reduce the traffic volumes in the city centre - we shouldn't be trying to fit another mode of transport into the space we have today without reducing or removing another modality.

LeoD

Cookiemunster wrote: »

And how do you propose to do that seeing as traveling through any city means crossing multiple junctions at short intervals.

Just to add. I'm not sure of your position on cycling as a viable mode of transport but I'm guessing that you're not entirely convinced? Apologies if I've got that wrong but it's easy to see why the vast majority of the country think the idea of cycling as a mode of transport is daft. I wouldn't blame anyone for thinking that when you see the state of our current cycling infrastructure and culture. Just about everything we do with regards utility cycling is arseways in this country starting with how our homes are designed (most can park a car conveniently outside their front door but have to store a bike into a locked shed out the back), to the unsuitable silly bikes we use (hybrids? give me strength), to the crappy route design to the available of safe secure storage at our destinations. When all most people see is this abomination, I can fully understand why people baulk at the idea of more cycling and less car driving but when you see a smooth operating, efficient cycle culture like they have in Holland, it's only then you can see the potential.

cooperguy

LeoD wrote: »

According to the Galway's own Transport Strategy report,
- 60% of trips begin and end inside the city
- 37% of trips begin outside/inside the city and end inside/outside the city
- only 3% of trips begin and end outside the city

That means 97% of trips take place in and around the city, either partially or wholly. A bypass will do nothing to alleviate this problem. When the bypass is complete, 97% of traffic will still want to be in and around the city. Do we think people are somehow going to park their cars on the bypass and bus/cycle into Galway from there?

Its an orbital route that will add a badly needed bridge to the city (allowing them to close off other bridges to private cars and implement proper public transport in the centre) and serve the routes inside the city such as all the traffic travelling from Parkmore/Ballybrit to Knocknacarra/Salthill.

It will alleviate a bunch of congestion on the high traffic routes within the city.

Cookiemunster

LeoD wrote: »

Just to add. I'm not sure of your position on cycling as a viable mode of transport but I'm guessing that you're not entirely convinced? Apologies if I've got that wrong but it's easy to see why the vast majority of the country think the idea of cycling as a mode of transport is daft. I wouldn't blame anyone for thinking that when you see the state of our current cycling infrastructure and culture. Just about everything we do with regards utility cycling is arseways in this country starting with how our homes are designed (most can park a car conveniently outside their front door but have to store a bike into a locked shed out the back), to the unsuitable silly bikes we use (hybrids? give me strength), to the crappy route design to the available of safe secure storage at our destinations. When all most people see is this abomination, I can fully understand why people baulk at the idea of more cycling and less car driving but when you see a smooth operating, efficient cycle culture like they have in Holland, it's only then you can see the potential.

I do think it could be a viable form of transport within the city, but it needs heavy investment that its not getting.

However I think the idea that it's going to solve traffic issues is a myth. I've been to many places in the Netherlands and Germany and seen fantastic cycling infrastructure and public transport options. But I've also seen cars and heavy traffic in those same cities. In Amsterdam for example you have cycle lanes and trams and buses, but cars are still everywhere, even down the narrow streets along the canals. 86.1% of Dutch passenger transport and 85.6% of German passenger transport is by private car according to the latest eurostat figures, with the EU average being 83.1%. Ireland believe it or not, is only at 80.4%.

BTW I wouldn't ever store something like a bike outside my front door. It's unlikely to be there the next day.

kilburn

Its shocking that we are still having these conversations being the smarter travel city.

Smarter travel city without a bus connects plan.

zulutango

The figures don't have bikes or walking?

LeoD

Cookiemunster wrote: »

However I think the idea that it's going to solve traffic issues is a myth. I've been to many places in the Netherlands and Germany and seen fantastic cycling infrastructure and public transport options. But I've also seen cars and heavy traffic in those same cities. In Amsterdam for example you have cycle lanes and trams and buses, but cars are still everywhere, even down the narrow streets along the canals. 86.1% of Dutch passenger transport and 85.6% of German passenger transport is by private car according to the latest eurostat figures, with the EU average being 83.1%. Ireland believe it or not, is only at 80.4%.

zulutango wrote: »

The figures don't have bikes or walking?

No they don't - those figures only show the split between cars, buses and trains.

Here are some facts from the Netherlands Institute for Transport Policy Analysis



Download report here if you like.

LeoD

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I do think it could be a viable form of transport within the city, but it needs heavy investment that its not getting.

Agree - but not half as much or even a quarter the amount we're going to blow on new roads over the next few years.

Cookiemunster wrote: »

BTW I wouldn't ever store something like a bike outside my front door. It's unlikely to be there the next day.

Neither would I and neither do the Dutch. Below is a typical Dutch residential area with a row of terraced houses. They all have a small back garden like we do in Ireland but there is access to these gardens from the street via a small lane/walkway. As well as constructing the house, the builder must also build a solid safe secure dry storage unit (aka - a fancy garden shed) that can be used to store bikes. You don't have to store a bike if you don't want to or don't have one but at least the option is always there. It might seem like a trivial thing but having easy access to a bicycle increases the chances of it being used. It's not the magic bullet to get everyone cycling, just another component of an overall functioning cycle network.

Cookiemunster

LeoD wrote: »

No they don't - those figures only show the split between cars, buses and trains.

Here are some facts from the Netherlands Institute for Transport Policy Analysis



Download report here if you like.

That doesn't take away from the fact that the car is still dominant and the cities are still full of them.

JupiterKid

Irish_rat wrote: »

Waterford is a nice little town, has the Greenway going for it. How it got a motorway to Dublin no one knows, it's more comparable in size with Dundalk, Drogheda and Ennis really.

Troll post alert! :rolleyes:

LeoD

Cookiemunster wrote: »

That doesn't take away from the fact that the car is still dominant and the cities are still full of them.

It does take away from the misleading information you posted as fact earlier though. You didn't download the report I take it then? Here is another fact:



As you can see, the car is not dominant in a city. Here are the figures for a number of other cities:



But yes, you are right, the Dutch do drive cars also, just not to the level that we do. Could you imagine what Amsterdam would be like if they had the same modal split as we do in Limerick (2% cycling, 65% car)? Apart from the congestion, imagine the pollution? I have a car, I drive it 95% of the time as cycling is such a piss poor alternative option today. I'm not going to start cycling everywhere just to prove a point - I want to get from A to B in an efficient manner as possible. I wouldn't mind if the LA started to make it more difficult to drive into town in the morning if it meant they started working on providing cycling and public transport alternatives. And I don't agree with the mantra that the likes of Conor Faughnan comes out with - car users will switch to alternative modes of transport as soon as we're provided with them - we cannot magically produce a proper functioning cycle/PT network without first disrupting the existing car network.