How many is too many.

Cass

This comes up each year and between lads telling me and seeing pictures i'm wondering what are people's opinions on bag limits or how many do you consider too many. Or do you even have a limit?

One chap had, iirc, a bag of 27 on the first morning. Now i'm not judging, and if the club or land he is on allows for it, and they're used then so be it.

I gave up pheasant shooting some years back. No particular reason, just stopped. However i don't begrudge lads shooting one or ten, but throughout the year i've seen plenty of threads about pheasant numbers being down, and how scarce they are, yet here we have the first week and lads are shooting (not everyone, only those posting about it) like they're going out of fashion.

meathstevie

I'd consider it a small miracle if I saw 27 in a day.

If your ground holds that many you must be on some fabulous land with any amount of food and cover and some serious gamekeeper work being done.

If one would want to be sceptical you'd think they were only released on Halloween with a feeder beside them.

If it's the former and the numbers are there and the work has been put into the habitat I'd say why not.

If it's the latter I reckon you should go for a round of clays and empty the poultry freezer in a supermarket of your choice.

garv123

Cass wrote: »

This comes up each year and between lads telling me and seeing pictures i'm wondering what are people's opinions on bag limits or how many do you consider too many. Or do you even have a limit?

One chap had, iirc, a bag of 27 on the first morning. Now i'm not judging, and if the club or land he is on allows for it, and they're used then so be it.

I gave up pheasant shooting some years back. No particular reason, just stopped. However i don't begrudge lads shooting one or ten, but throughout the year i've seen plenty of threads about pheasant numbers being down, and how scarce they are, yet here we have the first week and lads are shooting (not everyone, only those posting about it) like they're going out of fashion.

2 per gun in our club, we have ground with lots of birds, but we only hunt it later on in the year.
we could easily hunt it the open weekend and shoot loads of birds, but why bother?

I see lots of lads with pictures up releasing birds on the last week/ 2 weeks of October, again, why not just shoot them in the pen?

The same lads will be the ones giving out at xmas that there's no birds around.

Bordglas

meathstevie wrote: »

I'd consider it a small miracle if I saw 27 in a day.

If your ground holds that many you must be on some fabulous land with any amount of food and cover and some serious gamekeeper work being done.

If one would want to be sceptical you'd think they were only released on Halloween with a feeder beside them.

If it's the former and the numbers are there and the work has been put into the habitat I'd say why not.

If it's the latter I reckon you should go for a round of clays and empty the poultry freezer in a supermarket of your choice.

My experience of gun clubs is that the guy who shoots the most, never does any work in rearing the pheasants, shoots vermin or attends meetings.

J.R.

Bordglas wrote: »

My experience of gun clubs is that the guy who shoots the most, never does any work in rearing the pheasants, shoots vermin or attends meetings.

Yes....and usually last to pay the fees and if he attends a meeting is first to give out about things but never volunteer for anything.

useurowname

27 is way too many imo. But if the guy is a good club man, and the club is okay with it and most of all if that number is sustainable then that's his business .
Personally I wouldn't shoot with someone that wanted to bag that number of birds. 2 or 3 quality birds and seeing plenty more is my idea of a days shooting.

deeksofdoom

I'm a member of a few pages on facebook, no names mentioned, but the amount of birds that some guys are shooting is crazy and then they are thick enough to picture themselves with these enormous bags with big cheesy grins on.

I could have shot ten birds if I wanted to last Sunday had I gone for easy birds around the feeders.

Instead I walked 9.3km in 3 hours and shot two cocks, finished at 12:00.

Leave the big bags to the driven shoots.

grassroot1

For me I find when I spend all summer rearing feeding and protecting birds I find they take on a higher value and deserve more than being treated as clay pigeons.
Two birds is a great day and enough for me provided the dogs hunt well and flush a lot of birds. I get as much entertainment from watching the dogs TBH
However if I have a mixed bag day with a couple of teal a mallard a few snipe and maybe a woodcock that is heaven.
If someone wants to shoot 10 birds well thats their business but I think they would be better shooting 2 a day for 5 days.
I suppose the question is WTF would anyone do with 10 birds

Captainaxiom

Devils advocate here but how are these opinions any different than the antis when they say why does any one need a pistol or a .338 or more than 1 box of ammo etc.
If it’s legal and no laws are been broken isn’t it each to their own.

You can’t talk out of both sides of your mouth on firearms issues.

Personally I wouldn’t shoot more than 3/4 on an outing.

grassroot1

This has nothing to do with firearms issues.
The question was what is too many in relation to game

Cass

Captainaxiom wrote: »

Devils advocate here but how are these opinions any different than the antis when they say why does any one need a pistol or a .338 or more than 1 box of ammo etc.

Because i'm not saying you have no right to shoot them or you shouldn't, and as said above i'm not talking about the completely different topic of gun ownership.

If it’s legal and no laws are been broken isn’t it each to their own.

Said that above.

You can’t talk out of both sides of your mouth on firearms issues.

This is not a firearm issue, it's a game issue.

My reason for starting the thread is because of the unusually large amount of threads since the start of the year regarding the low pheasant numbers, blaming buzzards, etc. and then when the time comes when lads can shoot some seem intent on shooting as many as is possible and this is only th first week.

IOW how sustainable is that type of shooting. Also are the lads that complain about no pheasant or numbers being low involved in these large numbers or doing anything to stop it?

The same question could be asked about deer. Complaints of low numbers, not a lot of large Bucks/Stags, yet within the first two weeks of the season you'll have people dropping every large stag/buck they come across and then everything else in between.

IOW, and as you said yourself, how can you complain about numbers then shoot such massive numbers when the season comes in?

One lad i asked said "if i don't shoot them, someone else will".

This thread is not meant as a persecution of those that shoot large numbers, i'm just trying to find out the reasoning behind it, and what position lads take on number shot in either the first week, or all season.

J.R.

deeksofdoom wrote: »

Leave the big bags to the driven shoots.

Exactly - my sentiments as well

J.R.

Cass wrote: »

One lad i asked said "if i don't shoot them, someone else will".

I've often heard this as well before and it's a sad, selfish outlook.

Lads will shoot the biggest, healthiest, mature stag before somebody else does, rather than leave it to breed and improve the herd for the future.

Same with flight ponds - I've seen fellows destroy a pond by shooting it constantly every evening rather than giving it a rest - afraid somebody else will get the results instead.

The sad thing is people with such attitudes destroy the sport for themselves & others.

Like others have mentioned - I'd don't think a number can easily be put on it - a lot depends on ground shot and birds available and how they will be used.

For me personally - numbers mean nothing. I would get more satisfaction from shooting one wily cock that gave a great hunt than shooting 10 or 15 simple shots around a feeder pen.

Normally I'd stop after 2 - 3 pheasants ....that's all I'd eat and use.

Now - If I was out duck shooting I'd take 5-6 as I love to eat them & friends of mine are always asking for any duck so they'd never go to waste.

As long as the game shot is used and enjoyed I'd have no problem with numbers shot, within reason, if the ground could sustain & support it.

pm.

I was out all day last Sunday and didn't even see. Bird. Had I got 1 or 2 or even a couple of shots off it would have been a good day out.

For me 2/3 birds is fair and leaves some for the next guy. Pheasants are so scarce around my area I would nearly give this year a miss tbh

I think the release of buzzards is wiping out our birds

Birdnuts

pm. wrote: »

I was out all day last Sunday and didn't even see. Bird. Had I got 1 or 2 or even a couple of shots off it would have been a good day out.

For me 2/3 birds is fair and leaves some for the next guy. Pheasants are so scarce around my area I would nearly give this year a miss tbh

I think the release of buzzards is wiping out our birds

No one is releasing Buzzards, they spread back naturally and as I mentioned in another thread pheasants have done well in many parts this year off the back of a good summer, that is certainly the case in North Kildare/South Dublin were I'm located for work atm and lads I know in local GC's are saying the same.This area has a high buzzard density too. That is not to say that buzzards don't take the odd poult but its well down the list of issues for pheasants behind the likes of foxes, roadkill etc.

Probably the biggest problem in many areas is that when land is converted to winter tillage or intensive dairy as has been the trend in farming over the last few years, there is nothing for pheasants in terms of feeding or cover. The birds will quickly vacate such areas in search of better ground. It means if your permission is mainly this type of farming you just won't have birds in any number. Thrown in the NARGC's recent warning about disease outbreaks which like mixie in rabbits can devastate numbers and you have some of the main factors for poor numbers in certain areas

Bordglas

Birdnuts wrote: »

No one is releasing Buzzards, they spread back naturally and as I mentioned in another thread pheasants have done well in many parts this year off the back of a good summer, that is certainly the case in North Kildare/South Dublin were I'm located for work atm and lads I know in local GC's are saying the same.This area has a high buzzard density too. That is not to say that buzzards don't take the odd poult but its well down the list of issues for pheasants behind the likes of foxes, roadkill etc.

Probably the biggest problem in many areas is that when land is converted to winter tillage or intensive dairy as has been the trend in farming over the last few years, there is nothing for pheasants in terms of feeding or cover. The birds will quickly vacate such areas in search of better ground. It means if your permission is mainly this type of farming you just won't have birds in any number. Thrown in the NARGC's recent warning about disease outbreaks which like mixie in rabbits can devastate numbers and you have some of the main factors for poor numbers in certain areas

https://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/outdoors/donal-hickey/the-buzz-on-the-buzzard-322348.html

OpenYourEyes

Bordglas wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/outdoors/donal-hickey/the-buzz-on-the-buzzard-322348.html

They're being translocated from the aerodrome - important to note the difference between that and a proper reintroduction project done for conservation reasons. These are adult birds being caught, driven a few hundred km away and released again. Done for the conservation of the planes and pilots rather than the conservation of the species! Some people are under the impression that Buzzards were reintroduced to Ireland (like Red Kites, White-tailed Eagles were) but that's not the case.

hrcbob

The big bags do make me wonder too.
I prefer to hunt out the awkward covers on the off chance of a proper wild bird before I go to where I know there will be a flock of them.

I have access to a few great areas of cover and make an effort to hunt no more than two days in any of them throughout the season Usually on rotation to give the dust a chance to settle.
Two birds from any day out keeps my cooker busy.

Bogwoppit

How many is too many? Well that's completely up to the individual and not really any of your business unless your involved in a club or syndicate with them or they're on your land.

When a person posts a pic of a bag you have no context of where or how that bag was shot.

To say that the lads who shoot the big bags are usually the lads who do none of the work is a load of crap, does it happen? Yes, probably. Is it always the case? I've never come across it personally so no.

I don't rough shoot pheasants at all because for me they are too easy to find and shoot. I could easily come across 10, 20, 30 birds in a morning out rough shooting but I don't bother with them, they also taste crap in my opinion. If a lad wants to take every one of those birds then good luck to him I say, none of my business.

To put this in context, a friend and I put down birds and do vermin control and feeding. If they all get shot then that's a good return. We don't release them to make the place look nice.

Capercaillie

Should be bag limits for species in decline like snipe/woodcock. For non-native species like pheasant people should be able to shoot as many as they want.

Cass

Bogwoppit wrote: »

How many is too many? Well that's completely up to the individual and not really any of your business unless your involved in a club or syndicate with them or they're on your land..

Who's business?

Captainaxiom

Cass wrote: »

Who's business?

I took it to mean “your” as is anyone’s business but then again people nowadays are all looking to find offensive in everything.

Bogwoppit

Captainaxiom wrote: »

I took it to mean “your” as is anyone’s business but then again people nowadays are all looking to find offensive in everything.

This, Exactly what I meant.

grassroot1

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

They're being translocated from the aerodrome - important to note the difference between that and a proper reintroduction project done for conservation reasons. These are adult birds being caught, driven a few hundred km away and released again. Done for the conservation of the planes and pilots rather than the conservation of the species! Some people are under the impression that Buzzards were reintroduced to Ireland (like Red Kites, White-tailed Eagles were) but that's not the case.

Without consultation with the stakeholders involved.

grassroot1

Capercaillie wrote: »

Should be bag limits for species in decline like snipe/woodcock. For non-native species like pheasant people should be able to shoot as many as they want.

I understand that it is only a decline in numbers of resident breeding woodcock and we dont really know yet what is causing this decline if it is indeed a decline that is happening. The birds may be just breeding further north. No doubt habitat loss, climate change and predation is effecting breeding waders as well as other farmland species.
Instigating bag limits or removing species from the open seasons order is an example of lazy conservation, it makes you feel better but achieves little eg Curlew and grey partridge. It is much better to be proactive in the protection of habitat, the protection from predators and try to promote farming practices which encourage hay rather silage for animal feed

Capercaillie

grassroot1 wrote: »

I understand that it is only a decline in numbers of resident breeding woodcock and we dont really know yet what is causing this decline if it is indeed a decline that is happening. The birds may be just breeding further north. No doubt habitat loss, climate change and predation is effecting breeding waders as well as other farmland species.
Instigating bag limits or removing species from the open seasons order is an example of lazy conservation, it makes you feel better but achieves little eg Curlew and grey partridge. It is much better to be proactive in the protection of habitat, the protection from predators and try to promote farming practices which encourage hay rather silage for animal feed

Since 1968 Irish breeding woodcock down 73%. Snipe down 34% in same time period. Shooting should be delayed till December ( as recommended by GWCT). Bag numbers early in season should be small as they would be irish breeding birds.

No disagreement with poor habitat, poor habitat management and heavy mesopredator pressure all major problems. Climate change might have an effect as well.

grassroot1

Capercaillie wrote: »

Since 1968 Irish breeding woodcock down 73%. Snipe down 34% in same time period. Shooting should be delayed till December ( as recommended by GWCT). Bag numbers early in season should be small as they would be irish breeding birds.

No disagreement with poor habitat, poor habitat management and heavy mesopredator pressure all major problems. Climate change might have an effect as well.

yes and if we could deal with the intense tourist shooting pressure and implement the laws on selling woodcock we might hold unto our most prized huntable species.

Capercaillie

grassroot1 wrote: »

yes and if we could deal with the intense tourist shooting pressure and implement the laws on selling woodcock we might hold unto our most prized huntable species.

x2. plenty of Irish lads shooting 20+ woodcock per day which is also unacceptable.

useurowname

What I think of as game hunting is on the way out FAST. The decline in game birds is actually I'd say frightening. I was out yesterday and I rose more fawns (3) than snipe (1). I live in the midlands and where we had pochard, widgeon, tufty by the thousand on lakes and rivers these birds are practically non existent . I've mates and their idea of shooting now is releasing a few (pet) pheasants from a pen about four days before heading out with dog and gun. Not sport . When my springer goes down he garden I'll be calling it s day . Lads the game us up , for me !

J.R.

I think the ploughing of the stubble & replanting in October has an awful lot to do with the holding capacity of a field to retain birds. When these fields are ploughed and planted then very little wildlife remains - it's like a sterile environment - there are no pickings left.

I would notice a huge difference in the last few years in the holding capacity of the ground we hunt. More landowners are removing ditches, draining ponds and marshy area and then after harvest plant the whole lot again in autumn....birds are not staying - stray easily and do not return when they find better, more natural ground.

The old custom of leaving areas of ground fallow ever fourth year, allowing it to rest and rejuvenate seems to have disappeared.

Eddie B

I think a major part of the problem is lack of insects in this country. The use of pesticides is literally killing the countryside, and most dont even realise whats happening. Insects are vital for game bird chicks, and wildlife as a whole. Years ago, you'd go for a drive on a summers day, and your windscreen would be dotted with insects. That just doesn't happen anymore.

Here's an interesting read on the subject

http://www.biodiversityireland.ie/where-have-all-the-insects-gone/