FTTH installation equipment ONT / ODP / Wireless Routers etc...

Andy From Sligo

seems I had got some peoples backs up in the boards group 'Eir rural FTTH thread' about discussing about the equipment OpenEir use for the ODP connection point and the ONT Box/device and the wireless routers ISP's supply when you sign up for a FTTH fibre package - was told to start my own thread so that is what I am doing. - didnt think the discussions of the FTTH equipment would warrant a seperate thread and thought it would sit better in the FTTH thread but apparently not - not sure it will get any views/posts but i will give it a try.

so anyway this seems to be the current setup when an installer (whether that be OpenEir / KN / or whoever ) calls out to your house and installs the FTTH equipment it comprises of 3 pieces of hardware 1x fibre ODP point , 1x SC/APC port Gpon ONT (huawei unit I think) - the 3rd item (not in picture) is a wireless LAN router 802.11ac (different ISP's supply different wireless routers I think with at least 1 supplier offering the Fritz wireless router)


There has been reports that latest installs now feature a Gpon ONT that fits into a cradle now attached to the ODP point - so that makes things a bit neater now.

now on the market is this all in one Generic SC/APC port HG8245 Gpon ONT made by huawei where it combines the ONT and the Wireless WLAN router in one neat unit which not only cuts down on messy cables and power supplies but is also easier on the eye , especially if the FTTH equipment in a place where people can see the FTTH hardware and you cannot box it in or hide it away or dont want people to trip up all the trailing wires or only have one socket available where you need to place the ONT and Wireless router. - it just plugs into the fibre patch wire that comes from the ODP socket into the HG8245 and then 1 adaptor plugs into the 13a wall socket. [/B]



And i was saying that its a shame that seeing as there is this one neat unit that can replace the job of 2 seperate pieces of devices (ONT & Wireless router) in one neat device that we cannot avail of the installers , installing one of these combined ONT Wireless Routers such as the huawei HG8245 or give the option maybe for the end user to swap out the supplied ONT and ISP supplied wireless router and replace it with this one Huawei HG8245 just like an end user can replace the ISP supplied router freely with another router if they have DSL broadband

... well it didnt go down too well with the folks on the FTTH saying "dont touch the ONT " (it was only a discussion I wasnt going to do it) and that you will loose Gpon signal / internet and then a costly engineer callout that customer would have to pay for that and that every supplied ONT's serial number is registered on the OLT at the exchange and that if you buy your own generic huawei HG8245 ONT or any other ONT and its not registered on the OLT the OLT will just kick your connection out. - May do, I dont know the technical in's and out of the ONT in the home handshaking with the OLT in the exchange.

But what do you think - do you think this set up with an all in one huawei HG8245 ONT wireless router is better than the current set up for FTTH? - do you think in the future this setup is what they will eventually do a default when installing FTTH into the home/business - can you see any negatives about having an all in one unit like this rather than the devices kept seperate?

oscarBravo

Not sure why all that is in bold.

The core problem is that the ONT is open eir's or SIRO's and the router is the ISP's (or possibly the customer's). If you combine them, who "owns" the combined device? Whose problem is it if it fails? Whose BSS systems are responsible for monitoring it? Who pays for a replacement?

tuxy

I see some info about that HG8245 being used in other countries. Is there any reason it's generally only used with slower 100 mbit connections?
Does it have the processing power to deal with a full 1 gbit wan connection?
Also I've only head of it being used on a closed network, not on an open wholesale network like SIRO or openeir.
I think that says a lot about the market that device is aimed at.

banie01

oscarBravo wrote: »

Not sure why all that is in bold.

To emphasise that he's only curious and asking questions.
He is the victim here,

Andy From Sligo

banie01 wrote: »

To emphasise that he's only curious and asking questions.
He is the victim here,

are there any grown ups here so we can have a grown up conversation????

Snaga

GPON is not like VDSL yet, the interop between hardware vendors is simply not fully standardised - largely because most OLT Hardware (The bit that aggregates all the FTTH connections together in the exchange) manufacturers like to sell ONT's too (After all most of the cost of these systems is actually the ONT+ its optical components).

Now that's not to say interop doesn't happen, it does - but its not as far along as with DSL and often requires 'extra costs' for the operator.

By using the small bridge ONT - the ONT completes the GPON 'semi-proprietary' piece, presenting standard ethernet to the residential gateway. Now, each retail service provider (or even home user) can use their own Ethernet Residential Gateway of choice and everyone is happy without the Interop headache (Except the OP ).

Andy From Sligo

oscarBravo wrote: »

.... who "owns" the combined device? Whose problem is it if it fails? ... Who pays for a replacement?

the person who supplies it - so if its the customer/end user who buys it and connects it they own it - they sort it if it fails - they pay to replace it.

just like if you had an ADSL package and you went out and bought a new ADSL wireless router from Currys/pcworld or amazon or somewhere

If the ISP supplies it and you never own it , they own it and replace it if it fails

tuxy

The Huawei HG8245 is a device that's in fairly widespread use by china telecom to provide 100 mbit fibre connections to homes.
It has a Hisilicon SD5113 CPU clocked at 400 mhz. It is unlikely that such a CPU could support NAT at speeds faster than this.

That's all my limited research has found so far. What have you managed to dig up Andy?

Andy From Sligo

tuxy wrote: »

I see some info about that HG8245 being used in other countries. Is there any reason it's generally only used with slower 100 mbit connections?
Does it have the processing power to deal with a full 1 gbit wan connection?
Also I've only head of it being used on a closed network, not on an open wholesale network like SIRO or openeir.
I think that says a lot about the market that device is aimed at.

I was using that HG8245 as an example - there are other makes / models out there of combined ONT/Wireless modems.

I havent read the full specs/info on the HG8245 - are you saying it cannot handle 1gbit connections?

Andy From Sligo

tuxy wrote: »

The Huawei HG8245 is a device that's in fairly widespread use by china telecom to provide 100 mbit fibre connections to homes.
It has a Hisilicon SD5113 CPU clocked at 400 mhz. It is unlikely that such a CPU could support NAT at speeds faster than this.

That's all my limited research has found so far. What have you managed to dig up Andy?

nothing yet - I will have to have closer look at the info

tuxy

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I was using that HG8245 as an example - there are other makes / models out there of combined ONT/Wireless modems.

I havent read the full specs/info on the HG8245 - are you saying it cannot handle 1gbit connections?

That's exactly what I'm saying. Can you provide me with more suitable models that I can look in to?

Snaga

And what happens if there is a network upgrade on the Exchange hardware and only Manufacturer's X and Y Router/ONT continues to work, but manufacture Z's doesnt? (Provided by a retailer or a resident themselves?). (As remember, without standardisation - which is not there - this is a serious risk!).

Andy From Sligo

tuxy wrote: »

That's exactly what I'm saying. Can you provide me with more suitable models that I can look in to?

yep maybe - after i have done some more investigating.

what wireless router does eir supply for fibre to the home is it the F2000/ - hg659 ?

how does this HG 8245 specs compare to the F2000 do you know?

Andy From Sligo

Snaga wrote: »

And what happens if there is a network upgrade on the Exchange hardware and only Manufacturer's X and Y Router/ONT continues to work, but manufacture Z's doesnt? (Provided by a retailer or a resident themselves?). (As remember, without standardisation - which is not there - this is a serious risk!).

what be the chances of that happening? - and the generic likes of a Huawei make could not be upgraded by new firmware?

oscarBravo

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

the person who supplies it - so if its the customer/end user who buys it and connects it they own it - they sort it if it fails - they pay to replace it.

All of which misses the fundamental point, which is that the ONT is part of the wholesaler's network.

just like if you had an ADSL package and you went out and bought a new ADSL wireless router from Currys/pcworld or amazon or somewhere

No, not just like that, because the DSL modem isn't part of the wholesaler's network.

You can't blithely compare the two. There's no ONT equivalent in DSL - the splitter/master socket isn't an active component and doesn't require monitoring.

It's easy to come up with what seem like clever solutions when you are only looking at one aspect of the problem. There are good technical and regulatory reasons for having a clear demarcation between the wholesaler's network and the ISP's/customer's CPE. Literally the only argument in favour of a combined ONT/CPE is saving one power outlet.

I understand your motivations in wanting it, but your motivations don't override the technical and regulatory reasons why you shouldn't have it.

Snaga

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

what be the chances of that happening? - and the generic likes of a Huawei make could not be upgraded by new firmware?

A not insignificant chance I would say - what makes you think the chances are low? (Given you now know they are not standardised interfaces like DSL or Ethernet).

What benefit is it to Hardware vendor A to provide new firmware so another vendors ONT will work?
How easy is it (in a non standardised environment) for vendor Z to 'fix' an interop issue caused by a vendorA (A competitor)? (at short notice)

Andy From Sligo

oscarBravo wrote: »

...Literally the only argument in favour of a combined ONT/CPE is saving one power outlet.....

its not thogh its less cables and less of a mess. - what do you think about a multifunction printer/scanner/fax/copier all in one for the home market? - do you think that was a good idea to have all in one unit that does all the jobs in one unit where it used to take 3 or more different devices to d the same job on your desk?

tuxy

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

yep maybe - after i have done some more investigating.

what wireless router does eir supply for fibre to the home is it the F2000/ - hg659 ?

how does this HG 8245 specs compare to the F2000 do you know?

Yes the f2000 is a re-branded HG8245 and uses a dual-core Broadcom BCM63168 400 mhz.
Nothing special about that chip but it's much newer and can do 1 gbit NAT without maxing out.

This is another argument in favour of not having the ONT and router combined as it makes upgrading to new standards(WIFI exc..) so much easier.
Why would openeir want to spend money on lengthy tests every time an ISP needs to use a more modern router?

Andy From Sligo

Snaga wrote: »

A not insignificant chance I would say - what makes you think the chances are low? (Given you now know they are not standardised interfaces like DSL or Ethernet).

What benefit is it to Hardware vendor A to provide new firmware so another vendors ONT will work?
How easy is it (in a non standardised environment) for vendor Z to 'fix' an interop issue caused by a vendorA (A competitor)? (at short notice)

thats the technical part where I am lost , I must admit. you would be more knowlegable on that side I suppose - but what protocols would we be talking. If say it was a generic HG8245 ONT/Router say - would/could eir update the protocol that much that particular ONT/Router say for example, could not use the new protocol ?

tuxy

Also do you think their is a reason the combo ont/router is only used in closed networks so far and not open wholesale networks?

Andy From Sligo

tuxy wrote: »

Yes the f2000 is a re-branded HG8245 and uses a dual-core Broadcom BCM63168 400 mhz.
Nothing special about that chip but it's much newer and can do 1 gbit NAT without maxing out.

This is another argument in favour of not having the ONT and router combined as it makes upgrading to new standards(WIFI exc..) so much easier.
Why would openeir want to spend money on lengthy tests every time an ISP needs to use a more modern router?

OK should there be any issues of an end user taking it upon themselves and changing the eir supplied ONT and ISP supplied router with a unit such as the HG8245 for an example on the understanding that the ISP cannot offer support on the router because its not what they supplied ?

Andy From Sligo

tuxy wrote: »

Also do you think their is a reason the combo ont/router is only used in closed networks so far and not open wholesale networks?

nope - what is the reason?

Andy From Sligo

tuxy wrote: »

Yes the f2000 is a re-branded HG8245 ...

is it , are you sure? - its a re-branded HG659 router is it not? - the HG8245 has the built in Gpon ONT

tuxy

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

is it , are you sure? - its a re-branded HG659 router is it not? - the HG8245 has the built in Gpon ONT

Yes my mistake it's the HG659 but the info on the much faster broadcom CPU is correct.

tuxy

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

nope - what is the reason?

On the closed network there is only one provider with one router to test.

On an open network there will be many different ISP using different routers depending on the service they want to provide.
Leaving control of the ONT to the owners of the network and control of the router to the ISP allows for new ISPs to join with minimal testing. The same goes for ISPs wanting to upgrade to a new router. Nether the network owner or ISP want to incur the cost of constant testing of new ONTs.
The profit margins on the openeir network are already so low that sky and Vodafone were very reluctant to join it. They wont be pushing for changes that would make it even more expensive.

tuxy

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

OK should there be any issues of an end user taking it upon themselves and changing the eir supplied ONT and ISP supplied router with a unit such as the HG8245 for an example on the understanding that the ISP cannot offer support on the router because its not what they supplied ?

As you well know using an out of spec ONT can result in up to 32 connections going down. What incentive is there for the network provider to allow a user to do this?

ED E

Very simply for ya Andy:

Adsl, VDSL - 1 cable per 1 customer
GPON, DOCSIS - 1 cable per 20-30 customers

When the cable is shared you have to control it. This has been explained to you several times.


Buy your own gear, Gowan. The OLT will probably ignore it.

tuxy

In other countries I've seen(videos on YouTube) ONT serial + password used.
I've no idea if Eir does the same but if it is you can find the serial on the ONT so that can be spoofed.
Not a hope in hell of openeir giving you that password though.

KildareP

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

OK should there be any issues of an end user taking it upon themselves and changing the eir supplied ONT and ISP supplied router with a unit such as the HG8245 for an example on the understanding that the ISP cannot offer support on the router because its not what they supplied ?

Andy, you seem to have a habit of going into forums, including Electrical, Plumbing, Home Security, and then arguing pedantics against the greater advice of the experienced folks within

If you interfere with the ONT you are interfering with the Open Eir network.

Expect to be spliced out and permanently refused service to your address if you cause any upstream interference within the network. That's the long and short of it.

(Not to mention you can't just unplug and replug fibre patch cords at will, they should be cleaned each time using a fibre optic cleaner.)

tuxy

At this stage I feel like we should all be encouraging him to use his own ONT. I'd feel bad for his neighbours but the outcome could be amusing.

Andy From Sligo

tuxy wrote: »

As you well know using an out of spec ONT can result in up to 32 connections going down. What incentive is there for the network provider to allow a user to do this?

thats the thing, I dont well know that an ONT can result in 32 connections going down and why it would do that, no-one has explained how it can do this. I suppose I will have to educate myself on the internet or watch a youtube vid or something if no-one is going to explain to me how a ONT at one persons premises can take out 32 other users fibre connection. I would have imagined there was some safety thing built into the syatem to stop this kind of thing happening and only isolate the problem to the person with the rogue ONT and not affect others ... doesnt it?