FTTH installation equipment ONT / ODP / Wireless Routers etc...

tuxy

It's been a month Andy and you even thanked my post

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108280779&postcount=3919

No one here can explain it better than the mountains of information available online.

Do you have access to google with your current ISP?

The thing is your questions are ok the first time you ask them but fith,sixth,seventh........this is where people get annoyed.

Andy From Sligo

KildareP wrote: »

Andy, you seem to have a habit of going into forums, including Electrical, Plumbing, Home Security, and then arguing pedantics against the greater advice of the experienced folks within

...

ooh - stalker alert!!

or have u just a good memory?

Andy From Sligo

tuxy wrote: »

It's been a month Andy and you even thanked my post

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108280779&postcount=3919

No one here can explain it better than the mountains of information available online.

Do you have access to google with your current ISP?

The thing is your questions are ok the first time you ask them but fith,sixth,seventh........this is where people get annoyed.

so sorry - I never did read up on rogue ONT's have to admit - yes I do have access to google thanks very much (albeit slow today - must be the windy weather)

hmm - people getting annoyed because i ask a question more than once or being repetitive ... is that a fault of me or people being touchy / easily upset?

Andy From Sligo

tuxy wrote: »

At this stage I feel like we should all be encouraging him to use his own ONT. I'd feel bad for his neighbours but the outcome could be amusing.

wasnt it you or someone else just said it wont work? - that it just wont register with the OLT and I would get no fibre / LOS ? - someone did

forgive me but what a silly system that one premises could have a fault or a faulty ONT and could affect neighbours , not isolate the problem to just the one user with the fault at their premises

MBSnr

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

hmm - people getting annoyed because i ask a question more than once or being repetitive ... is that a fault of me or people being touchy / easily upset?

The fact that numerous people have told you, repeatedly over multiple posts and threads, should tell you that....

tuxy

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

hmm - people getting annoyed because i ask a question more than once or being repetitive ... is that a fault of me or people being touchy / easily upset?

When someone goes to the trouble of explaining something to you it is rude to continue to keep asking the same question especially when you display no desire to learn anything from that answer.

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

wasnt it you or someone else just said it wont work? - that it just wont register with the OLT and I would get no fibre / LOS ? - someone did

forgive me but what a silly system that one premises could have a fault or a faulty ONT and could affect neighbours , not isolate the problem to just the one user with the fault at their premises

How's your research into how GPON works coming along?

BArra

Andy, maybe it might be a good idea to just sit back for a while and chill out rather than get more people coming down on top of you

You have a FTTH connection coming so happy days for you, lots of others who really want it and have no chance of getting it

Andy From Sligo

MBSnr wrote: »

The fact that numerous people have told you, repeatedly over multiple posts and threads, should tell you that....

that they are getting annoyed because they havent got patience?

Snaga

No. People invest time and energy into responding to your questions.

Ignoring answers and asking questions repeatedly shows a lack of respect for other peoples time and effort, which annoys people as they now feel duped, instead of feeling helpful and good about themselves for helping someone genuinely interested in learning.

Take the next step and educate yourself further using the tools you have and come back with educated responses that build on the answers you have already received.

Marlow

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

what be the chances of that happening? - and the generic likes of a Huawei make could not be upgraded by new firmware?

Yes. Even when both devices are from the same vendor, they can be incompatible to each other. Even 2 devices of the same model, just with different firmwares. That is a very likely scenario.

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

the person who supplies it - so if its the customer

Here is your problem though:

The ONT is owned by OpenEIR. They supply it, fit it and service it. However, they will not deal with the public and you can not directly contact them for support.

OpenEIR will not even give the provider/ISP access to the ONT. The ISP gets a very limited tool to query the status of the ONT through OpenEIRs systems. No configuration, no tampering, nothing.

The router is either supplied by the ISP (on loan) or sold to you. In some cases, you can use your own. If you own it, it falls under normal vendor warranty.

So, if you were to get a combined unit, you would not be able to get support or service for it, the way both OpenEIR and SIRO are conducting their business (as a wholesale network).

And the ISP can't give you support for the device, because they don't have access to that end of the network.

The rogue ONT issue has been explained to you by tuxy, myself and others. PON/GPON/X-PON/10G-PON etc are only compatible in theory.

There is no cross-over standard. You can not mix and match ONTs with OLTs.

A network operator will spend engineering time, certify the equipment in test and trials, that they want to use and then only replace a piece of equipment, when a problem comes about or when a upgraded/improved unit comes about, that is certified to operate the same way and with the same head-end.

Engineering time is one of the most costly parts of running such a network. It may be all fine to dabble with stuff in your own time, but not when it comes to a commercial entity, that has to make returns of their investment.

And if OpenEIR still was a state owned incumbent, then you could be brought to court for tampering with their telecoms infrastructure. You probably can anyway, because you're interfering with other customers, once you tamper with the ONT.

It's actually up to 128 customers under most GPON implementations, but OpenEIRs rollout has been limited to 32 drops per cluster. And the engineering cost to troubleshoot and rectify such a problem, once you've tampered with the cluster, is even more costly (to OpenEIR).

/M

babi-hrse

All I can share but it shows that this network is very much restricted in what you can plug into it.
I can splice a fibre cable on a position assigned to a customer I cannot just stick in any dp and expect the service to work (jobs have been failed for wrong dp)
When I bring the fibre and fit cradle and ont the signal is checked usually hovers about -13db
I plug this in and it does not actually get access to the network even though plugged in. I have to go through openers portal and input the Mac address of the ont in use for them to activate it only then does it lock on and get network access.
If you supply an ont with modem the installer will not be able to get the network to accept it and as such will never result in a lock.

Marlow

babi-hrse wrote: »

I can splice a fibre cable on a position assigned to a customer I cannot just stick in any dp and expect the service to work (jobs have been failed for wrong dp)

The DP for the Eircode/Premise is pre-assigned in OpenEIRs prequalification list. No negotiating that, unless a ticket is opened.

The port, that you as an installer have to use is assigned, when the connection is ordered. Long before the job goes out to the installer. No negotiating that.

babi-hrse wrote: »

I have to go through openers portal and input the Mac address of the ont in use for them to activate it only then does it lock on and get network access.
If you supply an ont with modem the installer will not be able to get the network to accept it and as such will never result in a lock.

The ONTs that you have in the van have been cataloged with mac-address, serial-number and ONT-password when OpenEIR received the stock. The ONTs that then have been given to you, have been assigned to you as an installer. You can not grab an ONT from another installer without having his credentials and use that on an install.

And well, if you did that, he would get paid and not you

That's how much has gone into ensuring, that nobody can enter rogue devices into the network. And it has been done for very good and apparent reasons.

/M

Andy From Sligo

Snaga wrote: »

No. People invest time and energy into responding to your questions.

please say I havent just read that !! - this is Boards where people have the time to sit down on the internet and discuss things among other things - i didnt realise people were specifically investing time and energy with me (at least you didnt say money as well)

I would have thought people answer me to be helpful and nothing more or just joining in with a relaxed conversation - jaysus it seems its bigger than that!

Andy From Sligo

Marlow wrote: »

Yes. Even when both devices are from the same vendor, they can be incompatible to each other. Even 2 devices of the same model, just with different firmwares. That is a very likely scenario.



Here is your problem though:

The ONT is owned by OpenEIR. They supply it, fit it and service it. However, they will not deal with the public and you can not directly contact them for support.

OpenEIR will not even give the provider/ISP access to the ONT. The ISP gets a very limited tool to query the status of the ONT through OpenEIRs systems. No configuration, no tampering, nothing.

The router is either supplied by the ISP (on loan) or sold to you. In some cases, you can use your own. If you own it, it falls under normal vendor warranty.

So, if you were to get a combined unit, you would not be able to get support or service for it, the way both OpenEIR and SIRO are conducting their business (as a wholesale network).

And the ISP can't give you support for the device, because they don't have access to that end of the network.

The rogue ONT issue has been explained to you by tuxy, myself and others. PON/GPON/X-PON/10G-PON etc are only compatible in theory.

There is no cross-over standard. You can not mix and match ONTs with OLTs.

A network operator will spend engineering time, certify the equipment in test and trials, that they want to use and then only replace a piece of equipment, when a problem comes about or when a upgraded/improved unit comes about, that is certified to operate the same way and with the same head-end.

Engineering time is one of the most costly parts of running such a network. It may be all fine to dabble with stuff in your own time, but not when it comes to a commercial entity, that has to make returns of their investment.

And if OpenEIR still was a state owned incumbent, then you could be brought to court for tampering with their telecoms infrastructure. You probably can anyway, because you're interfering with other customers, once you tamper with the ONT.

It's actually up to 128 customers under most GPON implementations, but OpenEIRs rollout has been limited to 32 drops per cluster. And the engineering cost to troubleshoot and rectify such a problem, once you've tampered with the cluster, is even more costly (to OpenEIR).

/M

thanks - i know , repeating it all to me again dont necessarily make it any clearer .

would a Gpon generic combined ONT/Wireless rougter made by a company such as Huawei (a genuine on , not a china clone/copy) with the right connector be classed as a rogue router though ? - thats not likely to take 32 peoples broadband out is it? (maybe you cannot hypothetically answer that because you cannot see into the future)

Marlow

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

would a Gpon generic combined ONT/Wireless rougter made by a company such as Huawei (a genuine on , not a china clone/copy) with the right connector be classed as a rogue router though ? - thats not likely to take 32 peoples broadband out is it? (maybe you cannot hypothetically answer that because you cannot see into the future)

Yes it would. As I said at the very start of that post: even two devices of the same manufacturer and same model can be incompatible to each other ...

It can be as simple as 2 different firmware versions.

And with a lot of carriers/wholesale networks/providers .. the firmware often gets customized to their own specific need.

So now you take a router with a generic firmware, that doesn't have the extra features and throw it into a network that requires the extra features .... and you're buggered.

And on top of that, you sending incompatible packets on the stream buggers everyone else on the same cluster.

I can tell you already now .. and I've tested this: even though OpenEIR and SIRO are using the same platform, some more special router-configurations have to be set up completely different for the two to make them work on each individual platform. Even though it's the same type ONT and the same type OLT.

That's on the copper side of the ONT. Nevermind the optical side of the ONT.

/M

Marlow

Oh .. and that's the next culprit to your theory:

- the customisation of the firmware of OLT and ONT is costly
- the more devices the network wants it done to, the more it costs

That's why every wholesale network sticks with a VERY limited amount of devices.

/M

Andy From Sligo

the funny thing in this thread that I am sure some on here have been reading my posts on the rural FTTH thread , have told me they were fed up reading about routers and that it was hijacking/swamping the thread .. told me to start my own thread about ONT's and routers which I have .... and then crossed over from the FTTH rural thread and started joining in on this thread

and most of the time just to tell me that its all been explained to me before and berate me for not taking peoples advice and acting on it

Marlow

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

the funny thing in this thread that I am sure some on here have been reading my posts on the rural FTTH thread , have told me they were fed up reading about routers and that it was hijacking/swamping the thread .. told me to start my own thread about ONT's and routers which I have .... and then crossed over from the FTTH rural thread and started joining in on this thread

and most of the time just to tell me that its all been explained to me before and berate me for not taking peoples advice and acting on it

Either you want to offend people or you want these things explained to you.

The people that have explained this to you before are now taking the time to explain it to you more thorough here.

The benefit is, that the other novices don't have to go through all your posts in the other thread, that are no benefit to them, because they're all theoretical and of no practical use ... as you're trying to achieve, what isn't commercially viable.

Post like that one are only intended to stirr the ****.

The reason you have been asked to start a seperate thread is so that the other one doesn't get dragged off topic on a constant basis. Simply, because you seem to ask the same questions or make the same suggestions over and over and over again. Ignoring the advice and information you've been given.

And no .. i'm not going to butter my posts up. Facts.

/M

Andy From Sligo

Marlow wrote: »

Either you want to offend people or you want these things explained to you.

... Ignoring the advice and information you've been given.



/M

ah please - you might think you have me sussed out, but I really am not trying to offend people honestly - I am trying to get some un-biased views , to get my head around it more why a different ONT wouldnt work (I am getting there, almost understanding how an ONT works on the infrastrcture and how it can affect other users) and getting (or trying to get) what other people think about a combined ONT and wireless router in one as opposed to the way they are doing it at the moment (not necessarily from the experts on here but of the joe public / end user - even though I dont think any joe public has answered in this thread at the moment, i might be wrong)

oh and please do not tell me I am ignoring the advice and information I really am taking it all on board and soaking it in even if you think I am not.

Marlow

How an ONT, and OLT for that sake, works, makes no difference to you. Unless you want to build your own GPON network.

When the likes of OpenEIR or SIRO purchase their gear, it gets ordered customized to their specification. It is NOT standard equipment, even though the casing may seem the same.

And because it's a shared medium network between a bunch of users, quality standards have to be kept. At an extremely high level. So you have to take, what you're being provided with. End of story.

Having a combined router with ONT fibre interface build in, is both a good idea and a bad idea.

It's a great idea, because you don't have to deal with multiple devices (and power supplies).

It's an inheritent bad idea, because you have to replace a very expensive unit every time you do an upgrade of the infrastructure. The simple ONT is a cheap enough device and it doesn't mean you have to replace the remainder .. unless it's not up to scratch after the upgrade.

You said, you repair PCs. How fast did PCs evolve in the 90s ? How much faster are PCs evolving today ? How fast is a high end graphics card out of date ?

Take an Apple computer or laptop ... if it's out of date, you've got to scrap the whole lot.

You can not just go and replace the motherboard, or the graphics card, or the wifi card, or the network card etc.

It's the whole hog or nothing.

You're trying to push the Apple approach on a FTTH fibre network, just because you don't want an extra device or cable.

The modular approach allows for freedom of choice and easy upgrades of components.

/M

tuxy

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

joe public / end user - even though I dont think any joe public has answered in this thread at the moment, i might be wrong)

You are wrong, I'm the best representation of Joe public you will get on a technical forum such as this. I have no education or work experience in this area and am grateful for the concise and simple answers Marlow and others like him have given. I've learnt much from from reading the posts on here, my first exposure to info about FTTH was when I ordered it back in June and started reading this forum.

savemejebus

I guess I could count as Joe Public and I have to say I don’t like the idea of an all in one ont-router setup.

To go back to your multifunction printer/scanner analogy I can honestly say that I’ve never had or seen a consumer based one that does the job as well as having separated. Same with hifi equipment.

I’d rather have dedicated items doing their single jobs really really well than an all-in-one. That’s not even mentioning the fact that if one part of an all in one breaks then you end up replacing the lot rather than the faulty component in most cases.

Also, it’s nice to know that I can upgrade my router simply without worrying about fouling up my and my neighbours connections.

As for cable mess or neatness, there is no rats nest of cables from my install and needing an extra plug socket is a sacrifice I’m happy to make for fibre. It couldn’t have been simpler, ISP posted out the router, KN came, ran cable, put ONT and ODP neatly on wall, checked that it was live and then left. All I had to do was plug in the Router, and it was nice that, if I’d wanted I could have used my own compatible router.

Snaga

Ok, ill give you the benefit of the doubt and explain how a rogue ONT can affect a PON.

In PON, the exchange side (OLT) laser is transmitting at a certain wavelength all of the time. Every packet the exchange laser sends into the shared fiber is received by every ONT in the split. Encryption is used to ensure that only the ONT the packet is meant for, can actually process it. An individual 'Rogue ONT' will not affect downstream traffic directly.

In the upstream direction, there are 32 ONT lasers all using the same wavelength (different to the downstream wavelength). They can NOT transmit at the same time as each other, or you will have a collision on the receiver in the exchange, with corrupted data, resulting in packet loss (a generally poor performing or broken PON for all 32 users).

The Hardware in the exchange (OLT) assigns timeslots for all of the ONT's to transmit (fire their laser) based on their assigned rates and actual usage. If the ONT does not work correctly with the OLT commands (firmware issue, interop issue, whatever it might be) then the OLT has lost control of the PON and the Rogue ONT is now badly affecting upstream traffic (and therefore downstream also due to how TCP works) by transmitting out of turn and the whole thing goes to pot.

Securing the PON, by controlling the hardware and firmware versions of that hardware, is extremely important for a wholesale operator. If firmware changes - they only have to test a small combination of things before rolling it out.

They are contractually obliged to certain service levels for their retail operators and their own customers need a solid access network, keeping the wholesale part of the network simple is the easiest way to achieve this.

I hope you are seeing the reasons why this is done, it really is for very good reasons (both operational and commercial).

Andy From Sligo

Marlow wrote: »

How an ONT, and OLT for that sake, works, makes no difference to you. Unless you want to build your own GPON network.


/M

I know it makes no difference to me and if it works it works ... but its not going to stop me being inquisitive and wanting to discuss about the equipment thats used - as long as I am not going to put my theories or my preferences into action please tell me who I am affecting just by discussing this on boards please?

are my ideas/preferences or discussing going to be affecting my neighbours or bringing down their FTTH service? (which is non-existent at the moment in my area) - its not. -

its just discussing:

1.) what do people think of the all in one ONT/Router units and do they think its better that the seperate units they install at present?

2.) Getting information why you cannot buy your own ONT/Router unit and just plug the patch cord from the ODP into a combined unit such as this and it work

3.) do people think this is the way the installs will go in the future

its not worth some people getting upset or abusive about it because of my limited knowledge of the way the whole FTTH service/infrastructure works - good if you understand it all and are experts on it good for you .

I keep repeating myself I am not actually going to fit another ONT or mess about with the one that installers put in, and I am not going to even order one

- I am saying that they are out there and was asking people why they are not fitting them (yes I am learning with the answers "its cheaper to replace seperate units and that they have to test new ONT units and its not worth their time and resources for them to do that" and all that)

so no, I am not affecting anyone else nor their broadband or anything else . Its called discussion & debate!

Marlow

It's like if you were asking Fastcom, if you can stick your own antenna up with your home-brew build firmware to connect to their sector.

Affecting maybe 20-30 customers in the process.

You think things are bad now ? They'd be worse then.

/M

Marlow

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

1.) what do people think of the all in one ONT/Router units and do they think its better that the seperate units they install at present?

What's your opinion on Apple devices and repairing them ?

That's your answer.

/M

Andy From Sligo

savemejebus wrote: »

I guess I could count as Joe Public and I have to say I don’t like the idea of an all in one ont-router setup.

To go back to your multifunction printer/scanner analogy I can honestly say that I’ve never had or seen a consumer based one that does the job as well as having separated. Same with hifi equipment.

I’d rather have dedicated items doing their single jobs really really well than an all-in-one. That’s not even mentioning the fact that if one part of an all in one breaks then you end up replacing the lot rather than the faulty component in most cases.

Also, it’s nice to know that I can upgrade my router simply without worrying about fouling up my and my neighbours connections.

As for cable mess or neatness, there is no rats nest of cables from my install and needing an extra plug socket is a sacrifice I’m happy to make for fibre. It couldn’t have been simpler, ISP posted out the router, KN came, ran cable, put ONT and ODP neatly on wall, checked that it was live and then left. All I had to do was plug in the Router, and it was nice that, if I’d wanted I could have used my own compatible router.

you have forgot that normally the all in one units are a lot cheaper than the seperates these days so if they have to be replaced its not expensive.

If you had to replace your all in one printer/scanner/photocopier (for home use anyway) you can do that at 50euro or less these days - years ago you would be paying 3 times that by just replacing a scanner on its own .

Taking the HG all in one ONT/wireless router (as an example) they are $60US Dollars (havent checked if they are available on europe site or what price they are in euro) and if a company such as eir were buying these in bulk they would have bulk buying power and get them a lot lot cheaper than 60 dollars

Marlow

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

you have forgot that normally the all in one units are a lot cheaper than the seperates these days so if they have to be replaced its not expensive.

If you had to replace your all in one printer/scanner/photocopier (for home use anyway) you can do that at 50euro or less these days - years ago you would be paying 3 times that by just replacing a scanner on its own .

you're forgetting, that there is a different reason for that. All in printers ..and printers in general .. are sold at a loss ..because it's the ink that they money is made on.

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Taking the HG all in one ONT/wireless router (as an example) they are $60US Dollars (havent checked if they are available on europe site or what price they are in euro) and if a company such as eir were buying these in bulk they would have bulk buying power and get them a lot lot cheaper than 60 dollars

Adn you're looking at retail prices. We are talking a lot more pennies and dimes in wholesale and much bigger volumes.

And yes .. there are no discounts there. Those are only found in retail.

You can not take the retail market and assume it's the same in wholesale. It's not !!

/M

Andy From Sligo

Snaga wrote: »

Ok, ill give you the benefit of the doubt and explain how a rogue ONT can affect a PON.

In PON, the exchange side (OLT) laser is transmitting at a certain wavelength all of the time. Every packet the exchange laser sends into the shared fiber is received by every ONT in the split. Encryption is used to ensure that only the ONT the packet is meant for, can actually process it. An individual 'Rogue ONT' will not affect downstream traffic directly.

In the upstream direction, there are 32 ONT lasers all using the same wavelength (different to the downstream wavelength). They can NOT transmit at the same time as each other, or you will have a collision on the receiver in the exchange, with corrupted data, resulting in packet loss (a generally poor performing or broken PON for all 32 users).

The Hardware in the exchange (OLT) assigns timeslots for all of the ONT's to transmit (fire their laser) based on their assigned rates and actual usage. If the ONT does not work correctly with the OLT commands (firmware issue, interop issue, whatever it might be) then the OLT has lost control of the PON and the Rogue ONT is now badly affecting upstream traffic (and therefore downstream also due to how TCP works) by transmitting out of turn and the whole thing goes to pot.

Securing the PON, by controlling the hardware and firmware versions of that hardware, is extremely important for a wholesale operator. If firmware changes - they only have to test a small combination of things before rolling it out.

They are contractually obliged to certain service levels for their retail operators and their own customers need a solid access network, keeping the wholesale part of the network simple is the easiest way to achieve this.

I hope you are seeing the reasons why this is done, it really is for very good reasons (both operational and commercial).

thank you for taking the time to answer.

I got most of that I think .

when something is called a Rogue router what does that actually mean? (yes I know I can google what is a rogue router) - but does a rogue router mean:

1.) a cheap knock-off one made in china and is a chinese clone of something else?

2.) something with different capabilities / settings / features of the supplied Huawei Gpon ONT (the ones that are installed in cradles now) ?

would the generic Huwaei HG8245 ONT router be classed as a 'rogue router' ? even though its made by the reputable company Huawei?

savemejebus

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

you have forgot that normally the all in one units are a lot cheaper than the seperates these days so if they have to be replaced its not expensive.

I didn’t forget that, i would consider it part of the reason that all in ones are not as good in general. I prefer to spend a bit more on stuff that works really well and will last rather than replacing multiple times.