HAP - general discussion thread

The_Conductor

This thread is a general discussion thread on HAP.

All commentary is to be civil in manner- and fully in keeping with the charter governing posting in this forum.

There won't be second chances if people misbehave- you will be sanctioned.
In addition- if this thread veers into territory other than HAP- subsequent splinter threads may be formed- or indeed, the main thread closed out.

Please be fully cognisant that landlords, tenants and various other people with an interest in the topic- are likely to be reading the thread- and remain civil at all times.

Regards,

The_Conductor

DubCount

In principle its not a bad scheme, but it has some tragic flaws:
1) Payments to landlord stop if tenant contributions stop
2) Requirement for higher standards than other rentals
3) Payment of rent in arears in stead of in advance.

Overall though, I think it is used too often in place of direct supply by Local Authorities

Klonker

My first problem with HAP/social housing is that I think its unfair to double income families. For example:

A 2 parent 2 children family in band 1 area, father works and can earn net 38.5 net, say about 44k gross if married. Mother doesn't work and minds children, no childcare costs.

Same example as above but both parents work and earn net 22k each, so about gross 50k. Don't qualify for HAP/social housing and pay 15k year in childcare costs.

Who above is better off? Should we not be trying to encourage and support the people who actually want to work in this country?

One thing I'd like to see is the rent tax credit (20%) come back to help this and make the system fairer for people renting, particularly for people just above the HAP cut off salary. To pay for this I'd increase the % that social and HAP tenants pay towards their rent.

My second issue is with people with no children (single and couples) under 30 being on housing lists. Maybe I'm wrong on this but is there anything stopping a recent college graduate who has just started a graduate position in Dublin on 28k from applying for social housing? From my understanding there isn't. This is unfair and thank god most don't but they would be entitled to it. Imagine everyone who is actually entitled to social housing applied for it how f@cked we'd be.

Mrs OBumble

Klonker wrote: »

My second issue is with people with no children (single and couples) under 30 being on housing lists. Maybe I'm wrong on this but is there anything stopping a recent college graduate who has just started a graduate position in Dublin on 28k from applying for social housing? From my understanding there isn't. This is unfair and thank god most don't but they would be entitled to it. Imagine everyone who is actually entitled to social housing applied for it how f@cked we'd be.

I understand that most councils will say tjat anyone under 23 and still single doesn't have a housing need: even if they are have a low income now, it's likely to rise quickly.

splinter65

Klonker wrote: »

My first problem with HAP/social housing is that I think its unfair to double income families. For example:

A 2 parent 2 children family in band 1 area, father works and can earn net 38.5 net, say about 44k gross if married. Mother doesn't work and minds children, no childcare costs.

Same example as above but both parents work and earn net 22k each, so about gross 50k. Don't qualify for HAP/social housing and pay 15k year in childcare costs.

Who above is better off? Should we not be trying to encourage and support the people who actually want to work in this country?

One thing I'd like to see is the rent tax credit (20%) come back to help this and make the system fairer for people renting, particularly for people just above the HAP cut off salary. To pay for this I'd increase the % that social and HAP tenants pay towards their rent.

My second issue is with people with no children (single and couples) under 30 being on housing lists. Maybe I'm wrong on this but is there anything stopping a recent college graduate who has just started a graduate position in Dublin on 28k from applying for social housing? From my understanding there isn't. This is unfair and thank god most don't but they would be entitled to it. Imagine everyone who is actually entitled to social housing applied for it how f@cked we'd be.

I don’t understand your problem with under 30 single childless people on the housing list. Plenty of young people in minimum wage jobs don’t want to live at home with parents not to mention many too ill or disabled to go to work and their Carers who can only work 15 hours per week.

Klonker

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I understand that most councils will say tjat anyone under 23 and still single doesn't have a housing need: even if they are have a low income now, it's likely to rise quickly.

That makes sense but I can't find such a rule anywhere. Also 23 is very low, a lot of people only leave college 23 or 24.

splinter65 wrote: »

I don’t understand your problem with under 30 single childless people on the housing list. Plenty of young people in minimum wage jobs don’t want to live at home with parents not to mention many too ill or disabled to go to work and their Carers who can only work 15 hours per week.

My own personal experience was I moved to Dublin when I was 25, 5 years ago, getting a job earning 24k a year. I moved into house share and paid 300 a month for a box room. Nothing unusual there, its what most young people do when they move to Dublin.

My point is if I was in that position now I could apply for a council house and be eligible for HAP and get a nice 1 bed apartment for myself mostly at the taxpayers expense. Even though I was on a low wage, wage growth was expected over the following years. I think this is unfair and shouldn't be allowed. If everyone eligible for social housing applied for it we'd be screwed.

splinter65

Klonker wrote: »

That makes sense but I can't find such a rule anywhere. Also 23 is very low, a lot of people only leave college 23 or 24.



My own personal experience was I moved to Dublin when I was 25, 5 years ago, getting a job earning 24k a year. I moved into house share and paid 300 a month for a box room. Nothing unusual there, its what most young people do when they move to Dublin.

My point is if I was in that position now I could apply for a council house and be eligible for HAP and get a nice 1 bed apartment for myself mostly at the taxpayers expense. Even though I was on a low wage, wage growth was expected over the following years. I think this is unfair and shouldn't be allowed. If everyone eligible for social housing applied for it we'd be screwed.

I don’t think you understand the HAP system very well.
Say I am a single man aged 25 (the age you quote) living in Dublin and earning €12.20 an hour for 39 hours. So €475.80 gross.
The one bedroomed apartment you mention is minimum €2000 per month.
My rent limit per month in Dublin is €660.
If I were on JSA then my contribution per week would be €40 per week and HAP would make that up to to the €660 per month. So I pay €40 and HAP pays €112 leaving a shortfall of €348 per week.
I have to make up that shortfall to the landlord every week.
Now I’m earning €478 gross so even if I do get HAP my minimum contribution is going to be at least €80 reducing the HAP contribution by €40 to €72. Result is
that from my €478 gross my contribution to the rent per week on the one bedroom apartment will be €428. Leaving me with exactly €50 to live on.

Klonker

splinter65 wrote:

I don’t think you understand the HAP system very well. Say I am a single man aged 25 (the age you quote) living in Dublin and earning €12.20 an hour for 39 hours. So €475.80 gross. The one bedroomed apartment you mention is minimum €2000 per month. My rent limit per month in Dublin is €660. If I were on JSA then my contribution per week would be €40 per week and HAP would make that up to to the €660 per month. So I pay €40 and HAP pays €112 leaving a shortfall of €348 per week. I have to make up that shortfall to the landlord every week. Now I’m earning €478 gross so even if I do get HAP my minimum contribution is going to be at least €80 reducing the HAP contribution by €40 to €72. Result is that from my €478 gross my contribution to the rent per week on the one bedroom apartment will be €428. Leaving me with exactly €50 to live on.

I'm curious as to how you worked out the tenants contribution above? I understand they make up the difference between the HAP limit and rent but not sure on the rest. I guess your right on the me not fully understanding HAP

There are a good few 1 bed apartments in Dublin for sub 1,500, nevermind 2,000.

splinter65

Klonker wrote: »

I'm curious as to how you worked out the tenants contribution above? I understand they make up the difference between the HAP limit and rent but not sure on the rest. I guess your right on the me not fully understanding HAP

There are a good few 1 bed apartments in Dublin for sub 1,500, nevermind 2,000.

I actually checked Rent.ie and daft.ie and saw a room in a shared house for €1000 but you specified a 1 bedroomed apartment and there’s nothing below 1500.
No the local authority make up the difference between your contribution which if your even just on the dole is still €40 and the limit for a single person which is €660 per month for Dublin. If the accommodation is actually more per month then the limit, then the tenant makes up the difference .

Mrs OBumble

Klonker wrote: »

That makes sense but I can't find such a rule anywhere. Also 23 is very low, a lot of people only leave college 23 or 24.

Again, AFAIK, it's not that definite.

Someone who did an apprentiseship straight out of school, or who just got straight into the workforce, will possibly have their likely earnings stable by age 23, so could be assessed for housing need then.

Whereas someone who went to college is only really getting started with work, so hasn't reached their likely career earnings.




Assessing need is ... difficult at the best of times.

Old diesel

Klonker wrote: »

My first problem with HAP/social housing is that I think its unfair to double income families. For example:

A 2 parent 2 children family in band 1 area, father works and can earn net 38.5 net, say about 44k gross if married. Mother doesn't work and minds children, no childcare costs.

Same example as above but both parents work and earn net 22k each, so about gross 50k. Don't qualify for HAP/social housing and pay 15k year in childcare costs.

Who above is better off? Should we not be trying to encourage and support the people who actually want to work in this country?

One thing I'd like to see is the rent tax credit (20%) come back to help this and make the system fairer for people renting, particularly for people just above the HAP cut off salary. To pay for this I'd increase the % that social and HAP tenants pay towards their rent.

My second issue is with people with no children (single and couples) under 30 being on housing lists. Maybe I'm wrong on this but is there anything stopping a recent college graduate who has just started a graduate position in Dublin on 28k from applying for social housing? From my understanding there isn't. This is unfair and thank god most don't but they would be entitled to it. Imagine everyone who is actually entitled to social housing applied for it how f@cked we'd be.

You could raise the income levels needed to access social housing support so that the difference between full whack support and zero support isn't as severe when you go above a certain income.

A tiered system might be appropriate and we could develop the social housing solutions so we have the so called mixed community.

We could also have a system where we balance what a landlord needs (income rise) each month with what a tenant can sustainably afford.

A HAP type scheme could bridge the gap but requires a general understanding of landlord costs per month.

I believe that 33 percent is the reccommended percentage of income that should go on rent.

The problem is that 33 percent of a lower income is harsher then 33 percent of a higher income.

Thats because for someone on 200 quid a week the remaining 67 percent after rent paid is less in actual money terms then someone paying 500 euro a week.

Reducing the cost of providing a house each month is vital.....

Options include......

1) tax reductions.

2) support from Government for loan repayments - so that the amount you have to pay on your mortgage is less if a landlord.

3) Government support with home upgrades/maintenance so your costs there are reduced.

4) faster ability to get bad tenants out so costs there are reduced as well as reducing the risk.

5) affordable insurance options (tenants perhaps pay a levy) to cover damage done by a tenant so that you don't get stung by 20 k worth of damage.

For new properties an investor might buy the cost of them might be looked at - the 1st day cost to buy hugely impacts the repayment costs on a mortgage.