Galway Ring Road- are there better ways to solve traffic?

Sam Russell

mod: Ok, I have moved the posts that were off topic on the M6 Galway ring road thread.

The guidelines for this thread are :

1. Discussion of ways to better serve the Galway traffic distribution.

2. No talk of VRT, Motor Tax, etc. They are not Galway specific.

3. Modal switch is OK if it avoids slagging off other types of traffic, and is relevant to Galway.

4. Suggestions of P&R locations if it would solve problems.


Usual rules apply - do not attack the poster, and be civil.

Ruhanna

marno21 wrote: »

Can you provide a source for this statement please.

In Ireland, road-building is typically conceived as a precursor to new development, and new development is typically based on access by private car.

Consider these three Ps: precedent, PR and politics.

Precedent is the most obvious, because we've been here already. The existing N6 was planned as a ring road around the city, but the Council ruined it by giving "planning" permission for large traffic-generating developments all around it, including huge areas of surface car parking. All low density, massively wasteful of valuable urban real estate and hugely damaging to the viability of public transport.

The M50 is another example of the way we use bypasses in Ireland. Need we go into details?

Additional precedents include other towns and cities that were bypassed and which subsequently saw a rise in the total number of car trips and in modal share for driving. If that is an incorrect assessment, can you name any bypassed town in Ireland that has experienced a decreased modal share for driving and an increased modal share for public transport, cycling and walking? If there is one it would be good to know, because it would make an interesting and informative study.

PR is either (a) the promotion of the long-demanded "bypass" (now called a ring road or expressway) on the basis that it will make more development possible, or (b) promotion of development on the basis of its proximity to the proposed new road.

Phrases such as "open up" and "free up" are typically used in this context. That's what the pro-bypass lobby were seeking from the very beginning, and it's what they still want now:

“The Galway City Outer Bypass would significantly alleviate the chronic traffic congestion problems in the city. It would also open up development opportunities for both the city and county which in turn would attract additional investment and employment opportunities,” CIF said in its pre-budget submission seen by the Galway City Tribune.

Note that the CIF is still using the old GCOB terminology, while carrying the old ideas forward into their inevitable recommendations for yet more road building. They have learned nothing, and they have forgotten nothing.

In fact the CIF are unabashedly just picking up where they left off after the economic crash and the demise of the fatally-flawed GCOB project:

“The city badly needs to build the Galway City Outer Ring road. Currently, traffic crisscrosses the city creating major traffic congestion. The Galway City Outer Ring road would relieve this traffic congestion, while at the same time open up much-needed lands for residential, commercial and industrial development that would help to service the needs of the city into the future.”

Source: https://constructionnews.ie/regional-development-ireland

As an example of promotion of development on the basis of its proximity to the proposed new road, here's some PR from Bannon, one of the largest commercial property consultancies in Ireland, advertising the "Gateway Shopping Park" as being "only 400 metres from the proposed M6 Galway Bypass".

Here's another:

"Without doubt, one of the highest profile sites to come to the market in Galway in recent times, the property is strategically placed with easy access to Galway city centre and the main traffic arteries to and from the city. All access points to the city are close by with the N6 link road 2kms away."

Source: http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/101299/high-profile-development-lands-in-rahoon-now-for-sale

Finally, for now, there's the political perspective. Irish local and national politicians typically see road-building as a way to "open up" towns, cities and regions for more development.

http://clarechampion.ie/work-to-start-next-year-on-e550m-gort-to-tuam-motorway
https://www.limerickpost.ie/2015/06/18/new-road-to-open-up-irelands-biggest-cul-de-sac
http://wicklowvoice.ie/6802/

They're not building railways with the same speed and enthusiasm, so the result in almost all cases is car-dependent sprawl. What are motorways for but to make more driving more easy?

And here it is from the horse's mouth, so to speak: no less a person than the Taoiseach Leo Varadkar says that the proposed ring road will "free up other parts of the city for further development."

Link: https://connachttribune.ie/listen-leo-varadkar-on-galway-traffic-health-and-councils-no-confidence-motion/

Geuze

A healthy, sustainable future does not involve ever more roads and cars.

This road may be justified, I can't say.

But a better future means much more public transit.

The most successful cities in the world have effective transit.

Carol25

What is the primary purpose of the city's roads? Moving county dwellers in their driver-only cars from A to B and back? Because the rurban commuter cohort, thanks to Galway County Council's stupid "planning" policies over decades, are huge contributors to the city's traffic congestion. You are not stuck in traffic, you are traffic.

Are you saying modern cars are not comfortable? What are you driving, a Lada? You didn't refute anything with regard to short distance driving in Galway. The fact remains, because the data have been there for years, is that a significant proportion of journeys in the city are over short distances. The thousands of county drivers entering the city after their long drives from rurban developments spread over a very large commuter catchment meet thousands of city drivers travelling relatively short distances and the resultant mess is called "permanent gridlock" or some such. It's this chaotic and unsustainable mosaic of travel patterns that gives rise to demand for a so-called "bypass", which may ease congestion in the short term but which will not fix the core problems in the long term and will probably make things worse (see the story of the M50).

Our stupid and unsustainable planning policies have led to many thousands of people transplanting themselves to the countryside, many of whom moved out to have "an urban-type home while avoiding the cost of city living" as mentioned in a link posted earlier. Can they be transplanted back? Unlikely. Our "planning" policies over decades have gifted us a legacy of unsustainable transport and infrastructure problems that will last for decades more. An urban motorway costing hundreds of millions of Euro is probably only the start of it.

Private cars, regardless of trip purpose, are massively inefficient. If you want to make the worst possible use of finite space, then the private car is the ideal way to do it.



Look at the picture above. Is either lane "shut down"? Which mode of transport illustrates the most efficient use of available resources?

A better question might be: what are the social implications of our rurban settlement patterns, which is one major source of the seemingly insatiable demand for more road construction?

As stated earlier, probably more than once, 40% of car trips don't cross the river at all. Shifting a chunk of those trips to modes other than massively space-inefficient single-occupant private cars would go a long way to relieving congestion on the river crossings. Likewise, eliminating cross-river trips (such as with Park & Ride, and making much more efficient use of bridges (such as by mode-shifting to public transport especially) would also make much better use of existing infrastructure at much lower cost.

The "miles and miles of tailbacks" are primarily composed of single-occupant cars (90% in Parkmore, according to a Council engineer).

Mandatory? Do you have some sort of ideological objection to transport planning and measures to control private car use?

Speaking of which, do you think that the County Council's construction of a motorway within the City Council's administrative area should be mandatory, to the extent that 40 family homes should be demolished, the relative tranquility of numerous other homes destroyed or diminished, and the property of an even larger group compulsorily acquired, divided or restricted, just so that county car commuters can drive faster?[/quote]


This is just going around in circles, you’re not offering any concrete proposals re public transport options. You’re making out building a road is ‘destroying the tranquility of the area’. Galway is a city, it’s not a nature reserve and the previous plan for the bypass further out avoiding home demolition was denied as I’m sure you’re well aware. You’ve just posted up a random picture of a bus and cars in traffic as your ‘example’ of a public transport solution without offering a single detail re times, roads, lanes, destinations. What’s more important to note however is the picture you’re using is a picture of a good road, with two lanes of traffic and a huge bus lane area, are you aware there isn’t a single road in Galway able to free up that kind of space. There’s barely room for one lane each way, never mind two. As I’ve already stated, Galway City’s roads are not fit for purpose. Building the road in the picture you’ve provided looks to have improved the availability of public transport in that random area, food for thought.
No one wants the bypass to ‘travel faster’, they want two get from a to b. Hospitals, ambulances, people in all sorts of situations. Are you aware a huge amount of people travel into Galway City daily to UHG from as far away as Donegal and other areas for Cancer treatments and other conditions as Galway is the designated ‘centre of excellence’ for the West. And guess where the hospital is located, across the river that doesn’t have enough bridges. Those people don’t have a menu of public transport services to choose from either. I agree planning is poor, foresight is shocking, and public transport options should be developed. However Galway needs more infrastructure to achieve this.
I’m done with this argument. As they say on Dragons Den, I’m out.

Carol25

In response to Ruhanna:
This is just going around in circles, you’re not offering any concrete proposals re public transport options. You’re making out building a road is ‘destroying the tranquility of the area’. Galway is a city, it’s not a nature reserve and the previous plan for the bypass further out avoiding home demolition was denied as I’m sure you’re well aware. You’ve just posted up a random picture of a bus and cars in traffic as your ‘example’ of a public transport solution without offering a single detail re times, roads, lanes, destinations. What’s more important to note however is the picture you’re using is a picture of a good road, with two lanes of traffic and a huge bus lane area, are you aware there isn’t a single road in Galway able to free up that kind of space. There’s barely room for one lane each way, never mind two. As I’ve already stated, Galway City’s roads are not fit for purpose. Building the road in the picture you’ve provided looks to have improved the availability of public transport in that random area, food for thought.
No one wants the bypass to ‘travel faster’, they want two get from a to b. Hospitals, ambulances, people in all sorts of situations. Are you aware a huge amount of people travel into Galway City daily to UHG from as far away as Donegal and other areas for Cancer treatments and other conditions as Galway is the designated ‘centre of excellence’ for the West. And guess where the hospital is located, across the river that doesn’t have enough bridges. Those people don’t have a menu of public transport services to choose from either. I agree planning is poor, foresight is shocking, and public transport options should be developed. However Galway needs more infrastructure to achieve this.
I’m done with this argument. As they say on Dragons Den, I’m out.

WillieMason

Carol25 wrote: »

In response to Ruhanna:
This is just going around in circles, you’re not offering any concrete proposals re public transport options. You’re making out building a road is ‘destroying the tranquility of the area’. Galway is a city, it’s not a nature reserve and the previous plan for the bypass further out avoiding home demolition was denied as I’m sure you’re well aware. You’ve just posted up a random picture of a bus and cars in traffic as your ‘example’ of a public transport solution without offering a single detail re times, roads, lanes, destinations. What’s more important to note however is the picture you’re using is a picture of a good road, with two lanes of traffic and a huge bus lane area, are you aware there isn’t a single road in Galway able to free up that kind of space. There’s barely room for one lane each way, never mind two. As I’ve already stated, Galway City’s roads are not fit for purpose. Building the road in the picture you’ve provided looks to have improved the availability of public transport in that random area, food for thought.
No one wants the bypass to ‘travel faster’, they want two get from a to b. Hospitals, ambulances, people in all sorts of situations. Are you aware a huge amount of people travel into Galway City daily to UHG from as far away as Donegal and other areas for Cancer treatments and other conditions as Galway is the designated ‘centre of excellence’ for the West. And guess where the hospital is located, across the river that doesn’t have enough bridges. Those people don’t have a menu of public transport services to choose from either. I agree planning is poor, foresight is shocking, and public transport options should be developed. However Galway needs more infrastructure to achieve this.
I’m done with this argument. As they say on Dragons Den, I’m out.

Well said you are 100% right

WillieMason

Ruhanna wrote: »

What is the primary purpose of the city's roads? Moving county dwellers in their driver-only cars from A to B and back? Because the rurban commuter cohort, thanks to Galway County Council's stupid "planning" policies over decades, are huge contributors to the city's traffic congestion. You are not stuck in traffic, you are traffic.

Are you saying modern cars are not comfortable? What are you driving, a Lada? You didn't refute anything with regard to short distance driving in Galway. The fact remains, because the data have been there for years, that a significant proportion of journeys in the city are over short distances. The thousands of county drivers entering the city after their long drives from rurban developments spread over a very large commuter catchment meet thousands of city drivers travelling relatively short distances and the resultant mess is called "permanent gridlock" or some such. It's this chaotic and unsustainable mosaic of travel patterns that gives rise to demand for a so-called "bypass", which may ease congestion in the short term but which will not fix the core problems in the long term and will probably make things worse (see the story of the M50).

Our stupid and unsustainable planning policies have led to many thousands of people transplanting themselves to the countryside, many of whom moved out to have "an urban-type home while avoiding the cost of city living" as mentioned in a link posted earlier. Can they be transplanted back? Unlikely. Our "planning" policies over decades have gifted us a legacy of unsustainable transport and infrastructure problems that will last for decades more. An urban motorway costing hundreds of millions of Euro is probably only the start of it.

Private cars, regardless of trip purpose, are massively inefficient. If you want to make the worst possible use of finite space, then the private car is the ideal way to do it.



Look at the picture above. Is either lane "shut down"? Which mode of transport illustrates the most efficient use of available resources?

A better question might be: what are the social implications of our rurban settlement patterns, which is one major source of the seemingly insatiable demand for more road construction?

As stated earlier, probably more than once, 40% of car trips don't cross the river at all. Shifting a chunk of those trips to modes other than massively space-inefficient single-occupant private cars would go a long way to relieving congestion on the river crossings. Likewise, eliminating cross-river trips (such as with Park & Ride, and making much more efficient use of bridges (such as by mode-shifting to public transport especially) would also make much better use of existing infrastructure at much lower cost.

The "miles and miles of tailbacks" are primarily composed of single-occupant cars (90% in Parkmore, according to a Council engineer).

Mandatory? Do you have some sort of ideological objection to transport planning and measures to control private car use?

Speaking of which, do you think that the County Council's construction of a motorway within the City Council's administrative area should be mandatory, to the extent that 40 family homes should be demolished, the relative tranquility of numerous other homes destroyed or diminished, and the property of an even larger group compulsorily acquired, divided or restricted, just so that county car commuters can drive faster?

Where is this picture taken?

Geuze

WillieMason wrote: »

can you give examples of these cities? so i can compare them to galway?

e.g. Freiburg, Regensburg..........

http://urbanrail.net/eu/de/fr/freiburg.htm

https://www.vag-freiburg.de/fahrplan-linien/netzplaene/liniennetzplan.html

Ruhanna

Carol25 wrote: »

In response to Ruhanna:
This is just going around in circles, you’re not offering any concrete proposals re public transport options. You’re making out building a road is ‘destroying the tranquility of the area’. Galway is a city, it’s not a nature reserve and the previous plan for the bypass further out avoiding home demolition was denied as I’m sure you’re well aware. You’ve just posted up a random picture of a bus and cars in traffic as your ‘example’ of a public transport solution without offering a single detail re times, roads, lanes, destinations. What’s more important to note however is the picture you’re using is a picture of a good road, with two lanes of traffic and a huge bus lane area, are you aware there isn’t a single road in Galway able to free up that kind of space. There’s barely room for one lane each way, never mind two. As I’ve already stated, Galway City’s roads are not fit for purpose. Building the road in the picture you’ve provided looks to have improved the availability of public transport in that random area, food for thought.
No one wants the bypass to ‘travel faster’, they want two get from a to b. Hospitals, ambulances, people in all sorts of situations. Are you aware a huge amount of people travel into Galway City daily to UHG from as far away as Donegal and other areas for Cancer treatments and other conditions as Galway is the designated ‘centre of excellence’ for the West. And guess where the hospital is located, across the river that doesn’t have enough bridges. Those people don’t have a menu of public transport services to choose from either. I agree planning is poor, foresight is shocking, and public transport options should be developed. However Galway needs more infrastructure to achieve this.
I’m done with this argument. As they say on Dragons Den, I’m out.

You're out, without properly addressing any of the core issues, and while failing to comprehend a key point about efficient use of finite road space. It's all about geometry, but it seems that in Galway committed car commuters (perhaps most especially those in the county who have made their rural bed and now have to lie in it, no matter what happens) just cannot grasp the fundamentals of travel mode as it relates to road capacity.

Geuze

Geuze

Population = 220,000

Tram network, and buses.

Ruhanna

WillieMason wrote: »

Where is this picture taken?

Kraków, Poland.

WillieMason

Geuze wrote: »

Population = 220,000

Tram network, and buses.

Thanks for the examples much appreciated. Have you any examples of coastal cities similar to Galway i can check out?

WillieMason

Ruhanna wrote: »

You're out, without properly addressing any of the core issues, and while failing to comprehend a key point about efficient use of finite road space. It's all about geometry, but it seems that in Galway committed car commuters (perhaps most especially those in the county who have made their rural bed and now have to lie in it, no matter what happens) just cannot grasp the fundamentals of travel mode as it relates to road capacity.

I think its solutions she wants everyone knows the problems

Ruhanna

WillieMason wrote: »

Thanks for the examples much appreciated. Have you any examples of coastal cities similar to Galway i can check out?

There are probably countless examples of other cities of similar size around the world. But so what? Some things might be the same, other factors significantly different.

There is one universal principle, and that is geometry. It doesn't matter where you look, the result will always be the same: the private car is the least efficient use of finite road space. Any sustainable solution to urban traffic and transport cannot avoid addressing this basic fact.

Ruhanna

WillieMason wrote: »

I think its solutions she wants everyone knows the problems

You can see no potential solution in the posted images, no?

Sam Russell

Last Saturday, I drove from Athenry to Terryland and back. It was interesting because the traffic was not too bad, but I noticed the inordinate delay at the various traffic lights on the four or so junctions. They are complex and use sequencing that is very inefficient and give rise to tailbacks on the major route. There is also the Coolagh roundabout which also gives rise to problems.

Now, I am not a traffic engineer, but looking at the map, it would appear to me there is plenty of space available to widen the N6 (Bothar Na dTreabh) to allow extra lanes, slip roads and bus lanes where appropriate. The main aim should be to make the N6 free flow as much as possible, and to widen or duplicate the Centenial bridge, again there is space to do so.

Bus transport along the N6 is notable by its absence. Park and rides are also absent. Do the small things first.

Ruhanna

Sam Russell wrote: »

Last Saturday, I drove from Athenry to Terryland and back. It was interesting because the traffic was not too bad, but I noticed the inordinate delay at the various traffic lights on the four or so junctions. They are complex and use sequencing that is very inefficient and give rise to tailbacks on the major route. There is also the Coolagh roundabout which also gives rise to problems.

Now, I am not a traffic engineer, but looking at the map, it would appear to me there is plenty of space available to widen the N6 (Bothar Na dTreabh) to allow extra lanes, slip roads and bus lanes where appropriate. The main aim should be to make the N6 free flow as much as possible, and to widen or duplicate the Centenial bridge, again there is space to do so.

Bus transport along the N6 is notable by its absence. Park and rides are also absent. Do the small things first.

Why add lanes only to use those lanes in the most inefficient way possible, ie for private cars?

Ruhanna

Is is ether/or, for at least two critical reasons: (1) the huge expenditure, which could be put to much better use, and (2) the damage that the proposed urban motorway would cause, with adverse effects lasting at least another generation, such as induced traffic and further sprawl.

If people "want" to use their single-occupant cars, clogging up the roads, then they have lost the moral right to complain about congestion. You are not stuck in traffic, you are traffic.

Everybody pays taxes.

what_traffic

Ruhanna wrote: »

Or four, in our case: drive, cycle, walk, use public transport.

And yes, we pay tax the same as everybody else does.

Ditto. That's the big problem really - if people were more multi-modal in Galway City and it's surrounds, would there be a want for this City Ring Road.
Car for our household can spend a week or two in the driveway without been moved.

what_traffic

Cookiemunster wrote: »

That's great for you, but many people live where they can afford, which usually isn't near where they work. Public transport is great in densely populated areas, but unfortunately nowhere in Ireland is densely populated (not even Dublin). Until we start building up in the center of cities and get people to live there, rather than sprawling out then no amount of public transport is going to resolve the traffic issue.

It's not about it been great or not. It is about the choices people make. I do not live close to work, 10km. Point I was making is that people use motor vehicles in the City for unnecessary journeys. Rurban commuters in the main are locked into one mode.
Agree re Density - Galway City Density has decreased by half since 1960 but population has quadrupled.

Ruhanna

Sam Russell wrote: »

Mod: Can we get back on topic. General discussion of tax, motor tax, sprawl, etc are off topic. Discussion on whether Galway Ring road is needed should be put in that thread. Off topic stuff will be moved or deleted depending on whether there is a thread for it.

Can be you more specific (and prescriptive) regarding what is "on topic" in this thread?

For example, what would be an "on topic" response to your post below?

Sam Russell wrote: »

Last Saturday, I drove from Athenry to Terryland and back. It was interesting because the traffic was not too bad, but I noticed the inordinate delay at the various traffic lights on the four or so junctions. They are complex and use sequencing that is very inefficient and give rise to tailbacks on the major route. There is also the Coolagh roundabout which also gives rise to problems.

Now, I am not a traffic engineer, but looking at the map, it would appear to me there is plenty of space available to widen the N6 (Bothar Na dTreabh) to allow extra lanes, slip roads and bus lanes where appropriate. The main aim should be to make the N6 free flow as much as possible, and to widen or duplicate the Centenial bridge, again there is space to do so.

Bus transport along the N6 is notable by its absence. Park and rides are also absent. Do the small things first.

Ruhanna

Zzippy wrote: »

Bothar na dTreach could possibly be widened, which would create additional space for bus and cycle lane infrastructure, if you're not going to assign existing lanes for those, which IMO should be the first order of business. You can't widen/duplicate the Quin bridge, however, without taking out significant property interests on the western side, and even if you did, you're still funnelling additional traffic quicker into the bottleneck that is Seamus Quirke Road, which cannot be widened further. Even if you assumed a lot of that traffic is heading for the N59, there is no space for slip roads to create a free flow junction, and traffic will still grind to a halt and back up to Terryland.

Why so much emphasis on "widening"? The capacity of the Seamus Quirke Road at present (car lanes + bus/bike lanes + bike paths/lanes + footpaths) would be reduced if any of the existing space was reallocated to create another car lane.

The SQR is not a bottleneck. Where people travelling by bike or bus encounter bottlenecks on that side of town is on the Western Distributor Road and on the Deane and Browne roundabouts.

There is a 100% bottleneck for public transport on the Quincentenary Bridge, in the sense that there is no bus lane. So bus service providers don't use it.

There are four lanes (two in each direction) on the Quincentenary Bridge. Reallocating space to bus lanes, implementing bus priority measures at junctions and providing a connected off-road cycle route (with junction priority) on the whole length of the existing N6 Ring Road would increase capacity, not reduce it.

Zzippy

Ruhanna wrote: »

Why so much emphasis on "widening"? The capacity of the Seamus Quirke Road at present (car lanes + bus/bike lanes + bike paths/lanes + footpaths) would be reduced if any of the existing space was reallocated to create another car lane.

The SQR is not a bottleneck. Where people travelling by bike or bus encounter bottlenecks on that side of town is on the Western Distributor Road and on the Deane and Browne roundabouts.

There is a 100% bottleneck for public transport on the Quincentenary Bridge, in the sense that there is no bus lane. So bus service providers don't use it.

There are four lanes (two in each direction) on the Quincentenary Bridge. Reallocating space to bus lanes, implementing bus priority measures at junctions and providing a connected off-road cycle route (with junction priority) on the whole length of the existing N6 Ring Road would increase capacity, not reduce it.

The sheer number, proximity and sequencing of traffic lights on SQR means it certainly is a bottleneck, particularly at busy times.

what_traffic

Zzippy wrote: »

The sheer number, proximity and sequencing of traffic lights on SQR means it certainly is a bottleneck, particularly at busy times.

Different bottleneck, maybe bottleneck for a single car user at peak times, but for the person walking, cycling or bus.... Only time they experience the bottleneck is when trying to cross the main SQR/BOD road.

Zzippy

what_traffic wrote: »

Different bottleneck, maybe bottleneck for a single car user at peak times, but for the person walking, cycling or bus.... Only time they experience the bottleneck is when trying to cross the main SQR/BOD road.

My point was in reply to someone who suggested widening the N6 and BnaT for car traffic, to show that doing so would only funnel traffic faster to SQR which is a bottleneck for cars, and would make very little difference to commute times. I was not advocating for it.

Ruhanna

Sam Russell wrote: »

I am guilty of going off-topic myself. I intend to sort this out when I get time.

When I sort it out, I will post specific guidelines. I will try and do so over he wekend.

Pending those guidelines, I would like to offer a general opinion.

I appreciate that the general rule, on Boards and in life, is to be civil. Fair enough, lack of civility should be discouraged and/or sanctioned.

I also understand that Boards is structured in a vertical or linear fashion, ie forums generate their own topics, topics generate threads, and threads generate discussion that is meant to be on-topic.

Likewise I also understand and appreciate that Moderators are volunteers and that their voluntary work may become a real pain (to them) if uncivil behaviour or unwanted discussion leads to their being bombarded with Reports.

However, incivility is a generic misbehaviour not unique to any one forum or topic (and for which there are effective sanctions, presumably) whereas that which may be called 'unwanted' discussion might be more contested, subjective and situation-specific.

'Vertical' Boards discussions are one thing, real life is another.

In relation to "M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]" the proposed project is a really big deal in Galway: 40 homes are to be demolished, many more properties are to be indirectly affected, and formerly quiet neighbourhoods will be changed forever, eg by traffic noise. Likewise the transport and planning environment will be drastically altered, for at least another 25 years. The changes that will inevitably follow the construction of the proposed motorway, for good or ill, will probably last for decades.

People are bound to have opinions on such a major project. I would argue that citizens ought to have an opinion on it, and that they should be allowed to express them. All the more so since the project is currently in the planning decision process, which means that people's opinions are being officially sought too. How do we know what we think until we hear what we say?

Of course we are all entitled to our opinion, but not our own facts.

Boards is a private forum, which is fair enough. However, every member should be treated fairly and impartially (civility works both ways).

I would argue that a thread split (ie N6 GCRR Planning Decision Pending versus N6 GCRR Is It Really Necessary?) risks creating an artificial divide that would not be impartial. In other words, a pre-existing group on Boards who would like to take the construction of the N6 GCCR for granted would simply want to continue discussing the proposal as if its merits were inherent and self-evident and that any contrary view is just vexatious and likely to cause derailment (a euphemism, in my opinion, for people continuing to express views that certain other people don't like).

I would suggest, for example, that people who would favour a thread split are more likely to be those that have already indicated a strong preference for the N6GCCR, while those who are supposedly "derailing" discussion are those who are less than convinced or maybe even strongly opposed.

In other words, a thread split would be a subjective divide in which "N6 GCRR Planning Decision Pending" risks being about manufacturing consent for a foregone (mainstream) conclusion while "N6 GCRR Is It Really Necessary?" is about sidelining dissent and quarantining unpopular opinions in a separate place where certain people won't have to see them.

Rant over.

Ruhanna

Zzippy wrote: »

My point was in reply to someone who suggested widening the N6 and BnaT for car traffic, to show that doing so would only funnel traffic faster to SQR which is a bottleneck for cars, and would make very little difference to commute times. I was not advocating for it.

Good point.

The key consideration is that an awful lot of discussion about urban road projects in particular are based on the unspoken, default assumption that the design user is a driver.

Even people who should know better, such as former Green Party mayors, fall into that trap to some degree. See the reference here to "45000 people": http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/blog/detail.cfm?id=40

Ruhanna

Ruhanna wrote: »

Pending those guidelines, I would like to offer a general opinion.

I appreciate that the general rule, on Boards and in life, is to be civil. Fair enough, lack of civility should be discouraged and/or sanctioned.

I also understand that Boards is structured in a vertical or linear fashion, ie forums generate their own topics, topics generate threads, and threads generate discussion that is meant to be on-topic.

Likewise I also understand and appreciate that Moderators are volunteers and that their voluntary work may become a real pain (to them) if uncivil behaviour or unwanted discussion leads to their being bombarded with Reports.

However, incivility is a generic misbehaviour not unique to any one forum or topic (and for which there are effective sanctions, presumably) whereas that which may be called 'unwanted' discussion might be more contested, subjective and situation-specific.

'Vertical' Boards discussions are one thing, real life is another.

In relation to "M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]" the proposed project is a really big deal in Galway: 40 homes are to be demolished, many more properties are to be indirectly affected, and formerly quiet neighbourhoods will be changed forever, eg by traffic noise. Likewise the transport and planning environment will be drastically altered, for at least another 25 years. The changes that will inevitably follow the construction of the proposed motorway, for good or ill, will probably last for decades.

People are bound to have opinions on such a major project. I would argue that citizens ought to have an opinion on it, and that they should be allowed to express them. All the more so since the project is currently in the planning decision process, which means that people's opinions are being officially sought too. How do we know what we think until we hear what we say?

Of course we are all entitled to our opinion, but not our own facts.

Boards is a private forum, which is fair enough. However, every member should be treated fairly and impartially (civility works both ways).

I would argue that a thread split (ie N6 GCRR Planning Decision Pending versus N6 GCRR Is It Really Necessary?) risks creating an artificial divide that would not be impartial. In other words, a pre-existing group on Boards who would like to take the construction of the N6 GCCR for granted would simply want to continue discussing the proposal as if its merits were inherent and self-evident and that any contrary view is just vexatious and likely to cause derailment (a euphemism, in my opinion, for people continuing to express views that certain other people don't like).

I would suggest, for example, that people who would favour a thread split are more likely to be those that have already indicated a strong preference for the N6GCCR, while those who are supposedly "derailing" discussion are those who are less than convinced or maybe even strongly opposed.

In other words, a thread split would be a subjective divide in which "N6 GCRR Planning Decision Pending" risks being about manufacturing consent for a foregone (mainstream) conclusion while "N6 GCRR Is It Really Necessary?" is about sidelining dissent and quarantining unpopular opinions in a separate place where certain people won't have to see them.

Rant over.

Thread split reasoning is simple logic which has been used multiple times in the past in this forum, one thread to discuss the construction, layout, junctions etc, i.e. the physical route itself and the other thread for all other existential and philosophical points.

It's not a big deal, thread splits happen all the time

Ruhanna

It's a motorway, reportedly, between points B and C on the map below.

One reason why it's a ludicrous project.

Source: http://www.n6galwaycity.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Galway-N6-Briefing-Document-Final.pdf

Sam Russell

Mod: I have deleted posts that are not Galway specific.

Posts in this thread should be specific to the need or otherwise of the Galway Ring Road or Bypass.

The provision of PT, bus lanes, P&R, etc are all OK.

General observations about Tax, VRT, etc that are not related to transport or traffic in Galway will be deleted.

Thank you for your patience. If any poster has a problem with any of this, then PM me and I will consider your views.

AugustusMinimus

My asssessment of the situation from a few years ago:

So, the M18/M17 scheme is now open and there is talk that the traffic and delays at both the Coolagh Roundabouts and the Martin Roundabout has increased further, with more traffic now landing into Galway this way.

I'm in Galway a few times a year and so fortunately, I don't have to experience the shocking traffic that is there.

Simply looking at a map of Galway highlights some huge issues in regards to traffic accessing the city.

1. Galway and Dublin share one thing in common. One half of the city lies flat to the sea, inaccessible by road. In Dublin's case, there is an M50 already in place. In addition, the traffic coming into Dublin is spread evenly in a half circle entering the city. This is the one thing that saves Dublin. The one place this breaks down badly is with the N7, where too much traffic is funnelled down one artery.

Galway is different though. The vast, vast majority of traffic enters the city from the east and north east. This doesn't help the city at all. Cork, Limerick and Waterford don't have this issue due to topography of the cities.


2. Road density in the east of Galway City. This truly is shambolic. The style of development in Ireland from the 1960s onwards has been to build huge housing estates without improving road infrastructure to handle the increased traffic. Prior to this, most city development was done using smaller estates and a grid system. Now its build estates and whatever existing boreens exist will do. Just look at the map below. I've highlighted in red where no movement can happen between the east and the city centre.



Its an absolute cluster****. Hell, even the road from Oranmore dumps out onto the Old Dublin Road causing big trouble at that junction. The lack of routes into the city centre means everything and I mean everything is funnelled down 2 routes which simply cannot take it.


3. At grade roundabouts. Galway must have more at-grade roundabouts per capita than any city on earth. Why so many. And why so many which lead into traffic lights. It inevitably leads to traffic queuing from lights, back onto these roundabouts which then completely block all movements at these roundabouts. Maddening.


4. There are only 4 bridges across the river Corrib. Is there scope for instance for another bridge down by the docks ?



Overall, I'm not sure that the bypass will alleviate any of these issues. Yes, it will be another river crossing and it will take traffic out of the city which is going East - West and visa versa. The only other benefit I can see is for it to act a distributor for the M6. However, this will be of an extremely limited benefit as these routes are already clogged. The issue of a lack of road density and capacity heading into Galway city is still a much bigger issue IMO.


Anyone who reads my posts know I'm pro roads. However, I have my doubts about the Galway bypass scheme. It is currently costs at €600m. I think the money could be better spent on a small schemes, including public transport. Would a park and ride from the east of the city help. Why not a park and ride utilising the existing rail infrastructure ? Given the lack of road density and field after field of undeveloped land in the east of the city, I'd imagine some form of BRT wouldn't be too expensive either ?

McGiver

Ruhanna wrote:

There is one universal principle, and that is geometry. It doesn't matter where you look, the result will always be the same: the private car is the least efficient use of finite road space. Any sustainable solution to urban traffic and transport cannot avoid addressing this basic fact.

11 river crossings in the Freiburg public transport network. It's a city rather comparable to Cork in topology (river splitting the city to southern and northern halves) and size.

You'll never fix Galway traffic with 1 proper bridge over the Corrib.

Ruhanna

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

My asssessment of the situation from a few years ago:

So, the M18/M17 scheme is now open and there is talk that the traffic and delays at both the Coolagh Roundabouts and the Martin Roundabout has increased further, with more traffic now landing into Galway this way.

I'm in Galway a few times a year and so fortunately, I don't have to experience the shocking traffic that is there.

Simply looking at a map of Galway highlights some huge issues in regards to traffic accessing the city.

1. Galway and Dublin share one thing in common. One half of the city lies flat to the sea, inaccessible by road. In Dublin's case, there is an M50 already in place. In addition, the traffic coming into Dublin is spread evenly in a half circle entering the city. This is the one thing that saves Dublin. The one place this breaks down badly is with the N7, where too much traffic is funnelled down one artery.

Galway is different though. The vast, vast majority of traffic enters the city from the east and north east. This doesn't help the city at all. Cork, Limerick and Waterford don't have this issue due to topography of the cities.

2. Road density in the east of Galway City. This truly is shambolic. The style of development in Ireland from the 1960s onwards has been to build huge housing estates without improving road infrastructure to handle the increased traffic. Prior to this, most city development was done using smaller estates and a grid system. Now its build estates and whatever existing boreens exist will do. Just look at the map below. I've highlighted in red where no movement can happen between the east and the city centre.

Its an absolute cluster****. Hell, even the road from Oranmore dumps out onto the Old Dublin Road causing big trouble at that junction. The lack of routes into the city centre means everything and I mean everything is funnelled down 2 routes which simply cannot take it.

3. At grade roundabouts. Galway must have more at-grade roundabouts per capita than any city on earth. Why so many. And why so many which lead into traffic lights. It inevitably leads to traffic queuing from lights, back onto these roundabouts which then completely block all movements at these roundabouts. Maddening.

4. There are only 4 bridges across the river Corrib. Is there scope for instance for another bridge down by the docks ?

Overall, I'm not sure that the bypass will alleviate any of these issues. Yes, it will be another river crossing and it will take traffic out of the city which is going East - West and visa versa. The only other benefit I can see is for it to act a distributor for the M6. However, this will be of an extremely limited benefit as these routes are already clogged. The issue of a lack of road density and capacity heading into Galway city is still a much bigger issue IMO.

Anyone who reads my posts know I'm pro roads. However, I have my doubts about the Galway bypass scheme. It is currently costs at €600m. I think the money could be better spent on a small schemes, including public transport. Would a park and ride from the east of the city help. Why not a park and ride utilising the existing rail infrastructure ? Given the lack of road density and field after field of undeveloped land in the east of the city, I'd imagine some form of BRT wouldn't be too expensive either ?

The M17 is doing what all such schemes do: generating more car traffic. It has not alleviated congestion around Claregalway in particular, and there are already reports of significantly increased traffic in certain areas.

https://connachttribune.ie/motorway-opening-sees-25-traffic-increase-on-rural-road-025/

No surprise there, but of course the people clamouring for more motorways don't care about such outcomes and perhaps even see more car traffic as inherently a good thing.

Looking at a map only tells a small part of the story. You also have to look at society, which is a multidimensional type of geography. There is far far more to transport planning that just moving boxes from A to B, which is how road engineers typically see things.

Dublin has not been saved by the M50. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108558362&postcount=2934

"The vast, vast majority of traffic enters the city from the east and north east." What is your source for that? What are the actual figures?

"No movement can happen". What does that mean exactly?

Galway City and County are badly planned, that's for sure. Now the same people who made that mess, and who have waited 25 years for a "bypass" to rescue them from their own inaction and stupidity, are the same people who are planning (another) ring road so that they can continue where they left off. We cannot rely on the people who caused the problem to solve the problem, when they are showing no signs of any new thinking.

Oranmore is just one car-dependent town decanting large volumes of car traffic *into* Galway City. Let's not forget that 40% of car trips start and end on the same side of the river, that 3% of car all trips (2012 baseline data) are actually bypassing the city, and that around half of all Galway residents live c. 5 km or less from work or education (Smarter Travel plan, 2009)

The core problem is an extreme level of car dependence. The roundabouts, on the west side of the city at any rate, are not blocked when the schools are closed. Why do you suppose that is? Galway's roundabouts are also very dangerous and intimidating for people who walk or cycle, so many people avoid walking or cycling for that very reason. Result: more cars on the road. Galway's junctions, controlled and uncontrolled, also have very little in the way of bus or bicycle priority measures. Result: more cars on the road.

Is the National Transport Authority even measuring the effects of buses and bikes on junction capacity?

You know this general subject matter well: can you point to any reported traffic model which gives details of junction throughput using different proportions of single-occupant cars, multi-occupant cars, buses, bikes and pedestrian traffic?

4. Some people who were opposed to the Outer Bypass, and are now opposed to the Ring Road, also believe that another bridge would be beneficial. That's a very interesting perspective, and is worth debating. However, we have to come back to first principles before demanding the construction of any new infrastructure for car traffic: is the existing infrastructure being used efficiently, and if not how can it be made to work? The fact of the matter is that none of the existing bridges has bus priority measures and there is no orbital bus service using the Quincentenary Bridge. We haven't even *tried* to develop such measures over the past two or three decades, so we can't claim that the alternatives don't work.

The proposed road is not a bypass. 3% of total traffic is bypassable, remember, and 40% of all car trips start and end on the same side. It's an outer relief road, intended to provide extra road space for two things: (1) taking some of the traffic off the existing ring road, and (2) opening the way for new commercial and residential development, which will also generate more car traffic, just the same as happened with the first ring road and the development that came in its wake. Deja vu all over again.

The projected cost of the N6GCCR recently went up to €650 million, if Galway Bay FM is to be believed. The challenge with Park & Ride is scale, perhaps? 19000 cars, most of them single-occupant, enter the city from the county every morning. Just for argument's sake, if you wanted to take out 20% of those (say 4000 cars) what area of P&R surface would be required?

€650 million would buy an awful lot of infrastructure for public transport, cycling and walking, but the Government has its priorities entirely skewed in the other direction. Sean Kyne TD argues that the far higher expenditure on motorways is purely because the engineering is more complex. Bullsh1t. It's all about what they consider to be important. Public transport and active travel in Galway are not considered important enough to be (a) considered first and (b) given the lion's share of funding.

McGiver

Ruhanna wrote:

€650 million would buy an awful lot of infrastructure for public transport, cycling and walking, but the Government has its priorities entirely skewed in the other direction. Sean Kyne TD argues that the far higher expenditure on motorways is purely because the engineering is more complex. Bullsh1t. It's all about what they consider to be important. Public transport and active travel in Galway are not considered important enough to be (a) considered first and (b) given the lion's share of funding.

What do you suggest? Specifically.

marno21

It's also important to note that the Ring Road is part of the Galway City Transport Project, which also has BusConnects Galway included. BusConnects will provide more bus and cycle infrastructure, however the plans are delayed (they were meant to be published in September).

BusConnects is allocated €200m in the National Development Plan.

McGiver

marno21 wrote: »

It's also important to note that the Ring Road is part of the Galway City Transport Project, which also has BusConnects Galway included. BusConnects will provide more bus and cycle infrastructure, however the plans are delayed (they were meant to be published in September).

BusConnects is allocated €200m in the National Development Plan.

Do we know the details of what the plan is?

marno21

McGiver wrote: »

Do we know the details of what the plan is?

All details published to date are in this thread: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057881168

Ruhanna

McGiver wrote: »

What do you suggest? Specifically.

• Reversal of funding allocation, ie majority to public transport etc
• Orbital bus service, as per Transport Unit Business Plan 2008, ideally BRT
• Network of of bus lanes
• Bus priority measures on all key junctions
• Park & Ride on city periphery and in county towns
• Cycle superhighways on key routes
• Cycle priority measures on all key routes
• Pedestrian priority crossings wherever needed
• Removal of parking spaces, year by year, with targets to be met
• Workplace parking levy
• Feasibility study into use of congestion charging
• Ban on free parking
• Car ban around schools
• School travel plans
• Workplace travel plans
• Free buses as a stimulus
• Financial incentives for car pooling
• Financial incentives for cycling to work
• Financial disincentives for driving to work
• Modal shift targets for local authority, with incentives/penalties as required

Just a few ideas off the top of my head...

McGiver

Ruhanna wrote:

Reversal of funding allocation, ie majority to public transport etc

Not gonna happen in 1.5 cars per capita setup. Galway is getting €200m for public transport and other modes of transport. Somehow linked to the €600m for the Galway North Motorway (let's call it what it is in reality )

Ruhanna wrote:

Orbital bus service, as per Transport Unit Business Plan 2008, ideally BRT

Orbital/circular routes are desperately needed, fully agree. But What's this obsession with BRT and buses? Unless they are electric, I'm against as they are noisy, polluting, vibrating disgusting machines. BRT is not a silver bullet, in fact it's just a buzzword, very few cities in Europe rely on this. Why not trams?

Ruhanna wrote:

Network of of bus lanes

Where will you put them? I don't see the required space.

Ruhanna wrote:

Bus priority measures on all key junctions

What do you mean by priority measures? I'm from 500k City in Europe and we don't have anything like that, buses flows fine because the road throughput is decent. Fix the throughput and you don't need priority measures.

Ruhanna wrote:

Park & Ride on city periphery and in county towns

Agreed. But then the bust must come within 10 minutes, not 30 minutes. BE aren't able to deliver this kind of schedule and Galway traffic doesn't allow it either.

Ruhanna wrote:

Cycle superhighways on key routes

What is a superhighway? For whom? Galway isn't Copenhagen, the population is tiny, even if you got 10% people commuting on bike, you don't need highways, decent cycle paths would be more than enough!

Ruhanna wrote:

Cycle priority measures on all key routes

Not sure what you mean exactly (and I'm a cyclist), but advance boxes are good idea.

Ruhanna wrote:

Pedestrian priority crossings wherever needed

What's a priority crossing? What strikes me in Galway (and generally Ireland) is the marked absence of under- and over-passes for pedestrians. I think these are needed.

Ruhanna wrote:

Removal of parking spaces, year by year, with targets to be met

Set and enforced by whom?

Ruhanna wrote:

Workplace parking levy

Collected by whom?

Ruhanna wrote:

Feasibility study into use of congestion charging

Galway is too tiny for congestion charges. Better do a feasibility study on pedestrianisation and removal of personal car traffic from some areas of the town.

Ruhanna wrote:

Ban on free parking

Is there any? Where?

Ruhanna wrote:

Car ban around schools

How far? I haven't seen/heard of any city with this in practise. Unless you mean no parking, that is debatable and probably possible.

Ruhanna wrote:

School travel plans

For sure, but who will pay and are the buses going to fly to the get kids to school on time?

Ruhanna wrote:

Workplace travel plans

Paid by whom? By private businesses? Not going to happen.

Ruhanna wrote:

Free buses as a stimulus

No. There's no city in Europe that would have done this. Generally, anything free is crappy, is abused and not is not given value by the people.

Ruhanna wrote:

Financial incentives for car pooling

Who pays it and how it's targeted?

Ruhanna wrote:

Financial incentives for cycling to work

Paid by whom? By the employers?

Ruhanna wrote:

Financial disincentives for driving to work

That smells like a socialism and is quite a bit restrictive. You can't punish people for using their cars to commute in this way.

Ruhanna wrote:

Modal shift targets for local authority, with incentives/penalties as required

Agreed. But who would set them and enforce them? Is it legal and/or constitutional?

what_traffic

marno21 wrote: »

It's also important to note that the Ring Road is part of the Galway City Transport Project, which also has BusConnects Galway included. BusConnects will provide more bus and cycle infrastructure, however the plans are delayed (they were meant to be published in September).

BusConnects is allocated €200m in the National Development Plan.

Any idea why they are delayed? Have Galway Transportation Study/Strategy(2015) for 3 years. Looks like an afterthought really.
Will be interesting if any CPO's are part of it.

SeanW

My thoughts on this:

First off, it's important to note that there are no general rules as to what will "work" in any given traffic problem. For example, if you look at the problems of Claregalway, it has a problem but the solution will necessary differ to that of a traffic problem in Hong Kong, London, Singapore, New York, Tokyo etc. Yet, some posters have written in terms of hard, unwavering absolutes: "More roads are NEVER the answer" "Roads ALWAYS induce demand (and that is ALWAYS bad). An example of this is here:

In an Irish context, I would say that Dublin is closer to New York while Galway is (although the case is more marginal) closer to ... Claregalway than Tokyo.

Secondly, it's important to understand the end objective. For me, bypasses are a simple solution in most cases because they create clear distinctions between Streets and Roads. Because both are equally important but the function of each are distinct.

Simply put: Streets are places to capture value, people in cars are permitted but the focus is on walkability, safety and general design that creates pleasant spaces, allows shops to thrive etc. People are often allowed to drive on streets, but generally only for local access, at low speeds and with frequent stop-start motions. On-street parking is permitted if it helps bring shoppers to shops etc.
Roads on the other hand, are to get people from point to point as quickly as possible. They should be separated from other things, have a minimum of interruptions, and yes, be expanded or re-routed if needed.

What happens when one path tries to perform both the functions of a Street and a Road? You get what the US advocacy group Strong Towns calls a Stroad. A Street-road hybrid that does not get people from place to place quickly, but is not a way to capture value in a space either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ1HhLq-Huo

Sound familiar? It should because that is exactly what is going on in Galway. By my thinking, all of the N-roads in Galway city at present are Stroads. They try to serve the national functions of long distance travel, but are also really kinda like city streets.

To illustrate why this is so, look on a map and try to plot a course from Moycullen on the N59 to Kilcolgan on the N67. Even though you could do so without leaving the N-road network, you can't do that without going through Galway city stroads, at least 6 roundabouts, one right turn where you have to yield and God knows how many traffic lights. And that's if you do it in off-peak hours, if you have to do it during the peak hour, it will be torture.

Thusly, if you simply state that a bypass should not be considered under any circumstances, then you effectively want the current mess of stroads - which serve no-one - to continue. And that IS an absolute. You want to fix the problem of Stroads in Galway - and that requires roads - or you don't. There is no in-between.

By contrast, even the worse example given, the M50 does function like a road most of the time. That is, if you have to travel from Mullingar to Balbriggan, and your journey brings you to the M50 outside of peak hours, happy days. In that regard the M50 is mostly a success. The M50 functions as a bypass of Dublin most of the time, the stroads in Galway do not.

what_traffic wrote: »

Ditto. That's the big problem really - if people were more multi-modal in Galway City and it's surrounds, would there be a want for this City Ring Road.
Car for our household can spend a week or two in the driveway without been moved.

Good for you. Doesn't mean that roads are not needed along with streets. And it doesn't negate the need to eliminate stroads.

The M17 is doing what all such schemes do: generating more car traffic.

This is an example of thinking that needs to be called into question. If I understand it correctly, this view signals that ANY road project is bad because people will use it. And I have recent first hand experience to call this out.

I come from Longford and in the last 10 years a new bypass was completed, to complement an existing but inadequate bypass from the 1990s. That is, in around 1994, the N4 through Longford town centre was replaced with an N4 bypass providing a road from Dublin-Sligo traffic. But N5 Dublin-Mayo traffic was still routed through town streets. In the 2000s my memories of the town was that lorries were part of the towns furniture. If you sat in a local take away on Main St. and looked out the window, you would soon learn the names of all of the truck companies that operated in the Midlands and West of Ireland, because they'd all have trucks going through the town streets. Longford had stroads.

Fast forward to 2011. The N5 bypass opens. I'm in the the local take-away that Sunday, look out the window and ask myself "Where are all the trucks?" Answer, they were gone. Because the stroad had been replaced with a street and road.

Now: did that "induce demand?" Did someone drive from Roscommon to Dublin more because there was no bottleneck in Longford? Did some in Longford town decide to start driving more because it wasn't wall-to-wall lorries anymore? Possibly, but from what I can see, the traffic problems in the town are history. So I don't care. "Induced demand" is not everything, if it was, then we shouldn't have built any roads whatsoever after 1930.

what_traffic wrote: »

Agree re Density - Galway City Density has decreased by half since 1960 but population has quadrupled.

And you are automatically assuming this is a bad thing? Back in the early-to-mid 20th century, you probably had a lot of people living in tenements, boarding houses, families living in rooms etc. If they now live in houses, is that really a bad thing? Or, could a place where people live in houses be accommodated by things like Park and Ride, with fast buses, trams, suburban rail etc?

Ruhanna

McGiver wrote: »

Not gonna happen

I knew that the phrase "not gonna happen" would feature in your response, but you've exceeded my expectations by putting it in your first sentence.

Ruhanna

McGiver wrote: »

Orbital/circular routes are desperately needed, fully agree. But What's this obsession with BRT and buses? Unless they are electric, I'm against as they are noisy, polluting, vibrating disgusting machines. BRT is not a silver bullet, in fact it's just a buzzword, very few cities in Europe rely on this. Why not trams?

BRT is high quality, which is what attracts commuters away from cars.

But fine, trams it is then. Even better.

McGiver wrote: »

Where will you put them? I don't see the required space.

Can you give me three or four specific examples of roads in Galway where you "don't see space" for bus lanes?

McGiver wrote: »

That smells like a socialism and is quite a bit restrictive. You can't punish people for using their cars to commute in this way.

Your ideological preferences are irrelevant to transport planning. What matters is evidence, and the evidence clearly shows that prioritising private transport is unsustainable and that building more roads simply generates more use of private transport. People who walk, cycle and use public transport to commute are already being "punished", by the way that they are underserved, neglected and sidelined. It's long past time to reset the balance in favour of public transport and active travel.

serfboard

McGiver wrote: »

Why not trams?

To quote your own words back to you:

McGiver wrote: »

Where will you put them? I don't see the required space.

what_traffic

SeanW wrote: »

And you are automatically assuming this is a bad thing? Back in the early-to-mid 20th century, you probably had a lot of people living in tenements, boarding houses, families living in rooms etc. If they now live in houses, is that really a bad thing? Or, could a place where people live in houses be accommodated by things like Park and Ride, with fast buses, trams, suburban rail etc?

Your going to far back - this is post the 1950's when large no's of housing had been built in the City, more people per household back then for sure but the density of City is ever decreasing that was the point. We are going down a suburban/rurban route here in Galway rather than urban route. Agree re Park and Ride, only solution for the rurban and outer suburban residents,

what_traffic

SeanW wrote: »

By my thinking, all of the N-roads in Galway city at present are Stroads. They try to serve the national functions of long distance travel, but are also really kinda like city streets.

No not all the N-roads in Galway city at present are Stroads, yet. There are elements of it alright in the way planners have allowed commercial developments like Briarhill shopping centre to be constructed on the N6 corridor or a slip road into Windsor Motors in Ballybrit.

How about un-stroading them first?

McGiver

serfboard wrote:

To quote your own words back to you:

I literally grew up in trams - you almost definitely didn't. You can use narrow gauge and/or narrow design of the actual tram vehicle. Thus taking less space on the road then a bus or a bus lane.

Do you have any factual argument?

SeanW

what_traffic wrote: »

No not all the N-roads in Galway city at present are Stroads, yet. There are elements of it alright in the way planners have allowed commercial developments like Briarhill shopping centre to be constructed on the N6 corridor or a slip road into Windsor Motors in Ballybrit.

How about un-stroading them first?

You'd need to do both simultaneously. I don't see how you can un-stroad the current stroads in Galway because they remain the main routes from the Western county to pretty much the rest of the country. If you have to drive on a Galway street to get from Spiddal to Athlone ... basically it's still a stroad. That needs to be fixed in tandem with the other problems, which I agree are real. I also accept that the case to bypass Galway is not so strong as Longford or elsewhere in the Midlands as Galway is more the destination than the town en-route, but there is still a need to get better access to the Western county and the bypass - if accompanied by reasonably sensible planning - will do that.

On the day the bypass opens, the existing N6, which is all 4 lane in one form or another, should have the two kerbside lanes become an express bus corridor. If it works, then over time it could be upgrade to a GLuas. The entire length and then West onto the Seamus Quirke Road. The distinction would be absolute. Need to get through Galway? Use the bypass. Need to go into Galway? Maybe try the bus and P&R, because accommodating traffic is no longer the priority.

McGiver

Ruhanna wrote:

Your ideological preferences are irrelevant to transport planning. What matters is evidence, and the evidence clearly shows that prioritising private transport is unsustainable and that building more roads simply generates more use of private transport. People who walk, cycle and use public transport to commute are already being "punished", by the way that they are underserved, neglected and sidelined. It's long past time to reset the balance in favour of public transport and active travel.

Too philosophical, idealistic and detached from the political reality on the ground here. I could actually agree with the notion, but that's quite irrelevant to the practical solutions. Reset for sure - by providing incentives. But harsh punitive measures you suggested are simply not feasible.

Do you have an example from a <100k city in Europe (democratic country and market economy) where these kind of measures were taken? Punitive financial measures. And I'm not talking about banning cars from the city centre, I actually call for these in Galway.

McGiver

Ruhanna wrote:

BRT is high quality, which is what attracts commuters away from cars.

BRT is a buzzword for bus network matching 21st century. That's all that it is. It's just that BE and Irish public transport are about 35 years behind continental Europe that they have essentially forced you to look up to these buzzwords with expectations of some kind of a public transport silver bullet. Well, of course it's better than the local incarnation of the BE incompetency and backwardness in the form of their village buses with one door and cash payments, but it's still... a bloody bus.

BRT = a functioning city bus network matching 21st century reality i.e. no printed tickets, no cash, 3 doors all for exit/entry, self validation only, 1 stop takes 5 to 10 seconds tops to load/unload.

Care to respond to my questions regarding setup and enforcement? It all looks good on paper - but a bit scant on important detail