Galway Ring Road- are there better ways to solve traffic?

McGiver

Doctors room ghost wrote:

It’s too much.a fiver return and them trains would be packed.tea and a sandwich on the train is about a tenner.return from Galway to Dublin is about 50 euro.in England you could travel that distance for 10-12 pounds.good old paddy Irishman loves a good rip off though The train to limerick is the greatest joke going.a glorified 2 carriage budgie box carrying about 3 people.its an insult to car drivers having to stop at crossings to leave the budgie box across

Not true. Lived in England and crazy expensive trains. At least in the the South East. You can get a deal if you buy it upfront or for certain times like a flight ticket deals but otherwise very expensive and not very different from Irish Rail.

Ruhanna

SeanW wrote: »

get out of the car, take out the bicycle, put the car on his back, cycle through Galway city streets with the car on his back

Come back in a few years time when you have a mature contribution to make.

Ruhanna

Sam Russell wrote: »

The image is to demonstrate the PT and cycling is very efficient use of road space.

Why are there no buses crossing the Quincentenial Bridge? Maybe there is a question to ask before a new bridge for cars is built.

It's very common for people who want to assert the supremacy of private cars and denigrate the value of public transport/active travel to focus on their own travel preferences and commuting patterns.

Of far greater importance is the potential for modal switch at population level, and the increase in infrastructure efficiency that modal shift would bring about. That's is what is happening in Dublin with Bus Connects, for example. The consultants who designed the plan point out the benefits accruing at population level, while objectors, populist politicians and uncritical journalists focus on individual examples of discommoded or disgruntled commuters.

There ought to be an orbital bus route in place. Commuters have being demanding such a service for years, the Council was actually planning such a route, and the National Transport Authority granted a licence (in 2012).

Why has it not proceeded? Politics, that's why.

As Marno21 declared earlier, there would be "civil unrest" if a lane on the Quincentenary bridge was repurposed for a bus lane. Since around 70% of Galway commuters drive alone in their cars (it's 90% in Parkmore) and politicians only care about the votes they're going to get in the next election, the political focus is on keeping drivers happy, regardless of the greater good.

Likewise the vested interests (eg construction industry, property developers, land speculators and the like) are only interested in road building and its various lucrative spin-offs.

The costs of public transport are mainly in wages. Painting a bus lane on the Q Bridge would cost next to nothing, but investing in schemes for anyone other than car commuters butters no parsnips in Parlon Country.

marno21

Ruhanna wrote: »

It's very common for people who want to assert the supremacy of private cars and denigrate the value of public transport/active travel to focus on their own travel preferences and commuting patterns.

Of far greater importance is the potential for modal switch at population level, and the increase in infrastructure efficiency that modal shift would bring about. That's is what is happening in Dublin with Bus Connects, for example. The consultants who designed the plan point out the benefits accruing at population level, while objectors, populist politicians and uncritical journalists focus on individual examples of discommoded or disgruntled commuters.

There ought to be an orbital bus route in place. Commuters have being demanding such a service for years, the Council was actually planning such a route, and the National Transport Authority granted a licence (in 2012).

Why has it not proceeded? Politics, that's why.

As Marno21 declared earlier, there would be "civil unrest" if a lane on the Quincentenary bridge was repurposed for a bus lane. Since around 70% of Galway commuters drive alone in their cars (it's 90% in Parkmore) and politicians only care about the votes they're going to get in the next election, the political focus is on keeping drivers happy, regardless of the greater good.

Likewise the vested interests (eg construction industry, property developers, land speculators and the like) are only interested in road building and its various lucrative spin-offs.

The costs of public transport are mainly in wages. Painting a bus lane on the Q Bridge would cost next to nothing, but investing in schemes for anyone other than car commuters butters no parsnips in Parlon Country.

What I meant is that simply repurposing a lane on the QCB for buses would be politically out of the question, in addition to the fact that changes like that don't just happen.

Instead, the Ring Road for traffic staying out of the city, and the old N6 for public transport and limited car use. This is the best approach to suit everyone.

SeanW

Sam Russell wrote: »

Just consider that the Bothar Na dTreabh was built, it was to be a bypass, fitted with a sequence of useful roudabouts given names of the twelve tribes of Galway. When they caused gridlock, they were (well some were) replaced with traffic light controlled junctions that caused gridlock.

Now, this is not just a Galway problem because when Limerick built a bypass, Childers Road, it was a single carriageway road with roundabouts and gridlock. It was what was the latest solution at the time - cheap low cost non-solutions.

Now Limerick has a good Motorway bypass that solves the problem. Unfortunately, it is a bit short as it should go all the way to Cork. Unfortunately, Galway got a Motorway bypass that was 20 km too far East of the city. Now having had a few goes at solving this, they are to build a new one too far West. If Bothar Na dTreadbh was made grade separated, with a new bridge across the Corrib, it could remove the problem.

If access to the west of the city was easy coming from the M17/M18, then the traffic would avoid Claregalway.

Public transport has to be offered in a realistic way if it is expected that the car drivers and their passengers will use it. It has to be provided in as a frequent, reliable, and low cost solution that matches the users requirement. Building more roads does none of these things.

There is some rationale behind the routing of the Tuam-Limerick motorway, in that the new motorway does what a road should do very well - support regional travel. If you are driving from Tuam to Dublin or Tuam towards the South, the old routing of the former N17 doesn't serve you very well by dragging you towards Galway city when you don't need to be there. The routing of the new M17 probably shortens a lot of journeys. Besides, it was never intended to solve all the problems of the region on its own. Claregalway may need an inner bypass in it's own right at some point.

Also I'm not sure how the proposed bypass would be "too far West", as t looks like it runs from the current N6 to a point West of the Corrib river to get out of the city, what do you mean exactly by too far to the West.

I'd also be interested to read your suggestions for the current stroads. Can they be made into roads? Feel free to get out the crayons and suggest how you'd grade separate Bothar na dTreabh, where the new bridge would be, how you'd connect it to the existing roads.

Ruhanna wrote: »

Come back in a few years time when you have a mature contribution to make.

I did. Your suggestion was to put all the through traffic onto buses and bicycles. You've even suggested reducing the existing QB 4 lane stroad to 1 lane each way for people in cars. No accommodation whatsoever for people who need to get through the city but have no business in the city (i.e. like a bypass), in fact you propose to make through journeys harder. Your position sounds extremist and I pointed that out.

youngrun wrote: »

It seems set to continue, given the huge number of planning permissions for houses in commuter towns eg Barna 200 odd , Moycullen, Headford etc . Limited public transport. Car only option.
Almost no upward building in city residentially , maybe its unviable unless with a bigger scheme like Barrett Ceannt one. Surely theres a case for government support eg tax breaks or similar to encourage city living and building up on city or private land

Like the Irish school system that is a disjointed mess, Irish apartments are also quite poor quality. From what I understand, if you are unlucky enough to live in one, you can expect to hear everything that goes on in your neighbours apartment and vice-versa. Does your neighbour have bowel trouble? If they do, you'll know, because you'll be able to hear every detail of their ... movements ... from your apartment. It's not as bad as China, but for the most part an Irish apartment is the kind of place a lot of people wouldn't fancy trying to make a life. This is both rational and entirely OK. Which is why I support more trains to satellite towns, P&R and so on. No reason people can't live in houses and drive/cycle/bus whatever a short journey to a P&R stop for the rest of their commute. We simply don't have the population density that we have to have apartments (although Dublin is getting there, sadly :mad:).

The blindlingly obvious way of reducing car dependency within city is high frequency buses, cross city buses, park and rides and more trains in and out the Athenry/Oranmore etc line.

True, a lot of this would help. No-one here is disputing that.

Ruhanna wrote: »

It's very common for people who want to assert the supremacy of private cars and denigrate the value of public transport/active travel to focus on their own travel preferences and commuting patterns.

My daily commute involves a Dublin train.

As Marno21 declared earlier, there would be "civil unrest" if a lane on the Quincentenary bridge was repurposed for a bus lane.

Yes, because it would make through traffic far worse. It would at best be a trade-off. It would indeed be easier to get around the city by bus/bicycle what have you, but through journeys like Oughterard-Roscommon (as above) would be an even bigger nightmare than they are today. Galway has built a grand total of something like one bridge in the last 100 years or so? It's not like any group is over-provided for there.

Likewise the vested interests (eg construction industry, property developers, land speculators and the like) are only interested in road building and its various lucrative spin-offs.

This isn't mid-20th century America. And Parlon Country is Co. Laois, IIRC?

what_traffic

marno21 wrote: »

What I meant is that simply repurposing a lane on the QCB for buses would be politically out of the question, in addition to the fact that changes like that don't just happen.

Instead, the Ring Road for traffic staying out of the city, and the old N6 for public transport and limited car use. This is the best approach to suit everyone.

The problem with this notion is that the CAR traffic does NOT want to stay out of the City. If ring road is built still cannot see the vast majority of the CURRENT N6 been used for public transport. Kirwin to the Deane Roundabout section perhaps;but that would be about the MAX of it.

Triangle

Ruhanna wrote: »

In Ireland, road-building is typically conceived as a precursor to new development, and new development is typically based on access by private car.

Consider these three Ps: precedent, PR and politics.

Precedent is the most obvious, because we've been here already. The existing N6 was planned as a ring road around the city, but the Council ruined it by giving "planning" permission for large traffic-generating developments all around it, including huge areas of surface car parking. All low density, massively wasteful of valuable urban real estate and hugely damaging to the viability of public transport.

The M50 is another example of the way we use bypasses in Ireland. Need we go into details?

Additional precedents include other towns and cities that were bypassed and which subsequently saw a rise in the total number of car trips and in modal share for driving. If that is an incorrect assessment, can you name any bypassed town in Ireland that has experienced a decreased modal share for driving and an increased modal share for public transport, cycling and walking? If there is one it would be good to know, because it would make an interesting and informative study.

PR is either (a) the promotion of the long-demanded "bypass" (now called a ring road or expressway) on the basis that it will make more development possible, or (b) promotion of development on the basis of its proximity to the proposed new road.

Phrases such as "open up" and "free up" are typically used in this context. That's what the pro-bypass lobby were seeking from the very beginning, and it's what they still want now:

“The Galway City Outer Bypass would significantly alleviate the chronic traffic congestion problems in the city. It would also open up development opportunities for both the city and county which in turn would attract additional investment and employment opportunities,” CIF said in its pre-budget submission seen by the Galway City Tribune.

Note that the CIF is still using the old GCOB terminology, while carrying the old ideas forward into their inevitable recommendations for yet more road building. They have learned nothing, and they have forgotten nothing.

In fact the CIF are unabashedly just picking up where they left off after the economic crash and the demise of the fatally-flawed GCOB project:

“The city badly needs to build the Galway City Outer Ring road. Currently, traffic crisscrosses the city creating major traffic congestion. The Galway City Outer Ring road would relieve this traffic congestion, while at the same time open up much-needed lands for residential, commercial and industrial development that would help to service the needs of the city into the future.”

Source: https://constructionnews.ie/regional-development-ireland

As an example of promotion of development on the basis of its proximity to the proposed new road, here's some PR from Bannon, one of the largest commercial property consultancies in Ireland, advertising the "Gateway Shopping Park" as being "only 400 metres from the proposed M6 Galway Bypass".

Here's another:

"Without doubt, one of the highest profile sites to come to the market in Galway in recent times, the property is strategically placed with easy access to Galway city centre and the main traffic arteries to and from the city. All access points to the city are close by with the N6 link road 2kms away."

Source: http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/101299/high-profile-development-lands-in-rahoon-now-for-sale

Finally, for now, there's the political perspective. Irish local and national politicians typically see road-building as a way to "open up" towns, cities and regions for more development.

http://clarechampion.ie/work-to-start-next-year-on-e550m-gort-to-tuam-motorway
https://www.limerickpost.ie/2015/06/18/new-road-to-open-up-irelands-biggest-cul-de-sac
http://wicklowvoice.ie/6802/

They're not building railways with the same speed and enthusiasm, so the result in almost all cases is car-dependent sprawl. What are motorways for but to make more driving more easy?

And here it is from the horse's mouth, so to speak: no less a person than the Taoiseach Leo Varadkar says that the proposed ring road will "free up other parts of the city for further development."

Link: https://connachttribune.ie/listen-leo-varadkar-on-galway-traffic-health-and-councils-no-confidence-motion/

Fantasticly put. I could not agree with you more.

Sam Russell

SeanW wrote: »

Sam Russell wrote: »

Just consider that the Bothar Na dTreabh was built, it was to be a bypass, fitted with a sequence of useful roudabouts given names of the twelve tribes of Galway. When they caused gridlock, they were (well some were) replaced with traffic light controlled junctions that caused gridlock.

Now, this is not just a Galway problem because when Limerick built a bypass, Childers Road, it was a single carriageway road with roundabouts and gridlock. It was what was the latest solution at the time - cheap low cost non-solutions.

Now Limerick has a good Motorway bypass that solves the problem. Unfortunately, it is a bit short as it should go all the way to Cork. Unfortunately, Galway got a Motorway bypass that was 20 km too far East of the city. Now having had a few goes at solving this, they are to build a new one too far West. If Bothar Na dTreadbh was made grade separated, with a new bridge across the Corrib, it could remove the problem.

If access to the west of the city was easy coming from the M17/M18, then the traffic would avoid Claregalway.

Public transport has to be offered in a realistic way if it is expected that the car drivers and their passengers will use it. It has to be provided in as a frequent, reliable, and low cost solution that matches the users requirement. Building more roads does none of these things.

There is some rationale behind the routing of the Tuam-Limerick motorway, in that the new motorway does what a road should do very well - support regional travel. If you are driving from Tuam to Dublin or Tuam towards the South, the old routing of the former N17 doesn't serve you very well by dragging you towards Galway city when you don't need to be there. The routing of the new M17 probably shortens a lot of journeys. Besides, it was never intended to solve all the problems of the region on its own. Claregalway may need an inner bypass in it's own right at some point.

Also I'm not sure how the proposed bypass would be "too far West", as t looks like it runs from the current N6 to a point West of the Corrib river to get out of the city, what do you mean exactly by too far to the West.

I'd also be interested to read your suggestions for the current stroads. Can they be made into roads? Feel free to get out the crayons and suggest how you'd grade separate Bothar na dTreabh, where the new bridge would be, how you'd connect it to the existing roads.

Bothar na dTreabh has a lot of space around it, and few junctions. Those junctions are: The Coolagh Roundabout, Briar Hill, Ballybane, Tuam Road, and Headford Road - that is what we are talking about.

An extra lane each way running the length of the road from Newcastle to the Coolagh roundabout for buses is possible, with either a second MCB, or widening it for the buses and cycles.

The Coolagh Roundabout requires a single eastbound bridge to carry traffic from the M6 onto the Bothar na dTreadbh. The existing setup just needs to be adjusted. This on its own would be pointless as the problem here is the Briar Hill junction. A bridge across the N6 at Monivea road would be sufficient to reduce problems here. The same solution would work for the Ballybane Rd.

The Tuam RD would be a bit more difficult because it is busier, but again space is there for a bridge to carry traffic the Tuam Rd traffic across the N6.

Slip roads would cope with left turns, with right turns using traffic control lights away from the junction.

The Headford Rd/Seam Mulvoy Rd is a bit trickier to sort, but it is doable.

The Bothar na dTreabh is already there and is a problem because it is not free flow. Make it free flow and wider where needed and there is no need for the proposed bypass. There is plenty of space for dedicated bus lanes and cycle lanes. It could provide the benefits of the proposed bypass for a fraction of the cost.

The M17/M18 should have gone through Carnmore and Loughgeorge, not Cartymore and Annagh Cross. If it had, it would provide a better solution for Claregalway. As I said - too far East. It would still provide an excellent link for Mayo - Limerick, but a better link for Mayo - Galway and Limerick - Galway.

I'll put the crayons back in the box.

SeanW

what_traffic wrote: »

The problem with this notion is that the CAR traffic does NOT want to stay out of the City. If ring road is built still cannot see the vast majority of the CURRENT N6 been used for public transport. Kirwin to the Deane Roundabout section perhaps;but that would be about the MAX of it.

Two problems with this, First, you're assuming that no-one ever wants to go West of the Corrib to places like Oughterard, Clifden etc. Ever. That's the only reason not to build a bypass - that there is no legitimate traffic going through Galway stroads to get around the region. Though we can debate the numbers, we can safely assume this is false.

Furthermore, I often see the word "cars" being used as though they were the object of the thing being disputed. The problem with this is that cars don't go places by themselves, for their own reasons. If they did, I'd have to lock up my car each night for fear that it might decide to try its luck with that hot young pink Mercedes down the street (though with its ratty paint job I doubt it would have much luck )

When some people talk about cars, and car traffic, they're talking about people driving their cars, and people stuck in traffic. Not just cars. To be polite, it seems that some posters attacking "cars" is a form of terminological inexactitude. Whether intentional or not I don't know, but it might be a way to mask a desire not to control "cars," (because despite hints to the contrary, cars do not yet have minds of their own) but to control the people in the cars.

And as for the idea that everyone in Galway wants to replicate Los Angeles in the 1950s, that idea is countered by the fact that car sales are down in the region, and that developers continue to apply for planning permission for apartment blocks in the city. Clearly, what is being sought by the local people is support for a range of lifestyles, including people who want to live in a city and accept the tradeoffs of spending hundreds of thousands of euro to live in a crappy apartment, and those who want to avoid some of the downsides of things like apartment living and should be supported by buses, trains, park and ride from regional suburbs etc. Both which are perfectly fine.

Obsessive one-dimensional rants about how you want to control "cars" isn't going to help any of that.

what_traffic

SeanW wrote: »

Two problems with this, First, you're assuming that no-one ever wants to go West of the Corrib to places like Oughterard, Clifden etc. Ever. That's the only reason not to build a bypass - that there is no legitimate traffic going through Galway stroads to get around the region. Though we can debate the numbers, we can safely assume this is false.

Stop assuming SeanW, such a nonsense statement.
Issue is not about going West <-> East of the Corrib. Its about no of journeys going into the City from all the various roads leading into the City. There is no BYPASS, it is a City Distributor Road that is now been proposed.

Have not the foggiest what your point about NEW car sales been down and car fetish stuff?
New Car Sales down while economy is growing. That is caused by Sterling/BREXIT. What are the 2nd hand import nos from the UK in the same period like?


Do you accept that a STROAD can UN-Stroaded?

Cookiemunster

I have to say I've never heard of a protected motorway being described as a distributor road before.

SeanW

what_traffic wrote: »

Stop assuming SeanW, such a nonsense statement.

Nothing "nonsense" about it. Do you accept that, absent a bypass, the only way for someone to get to Clifden, Oughterard, Spiddal etc, is on city stroads including a North-South detour on the Headford Road? You either want to continue forcing East-West traffic onto city stroads or you don't. There's not much in between.

Issue is not about going West <-> East of the Corrib.

Tell that to the people who live in or need to get to some place West of the Corrib. The lack of a proper East-West road is at least part of the problem.

Its about no of journeys going into the City from all the various roads leading into the City.

That's part of it, but part only.

There is no BYPASS, it is a City Distributor Road that is now been proposed.

It may have elements of both, but it will make it easier to get around the region which I'm sure at least some people need to do. Ergo, it is a legitimate bypass. Like the much maligned M50, if you're in Kildare and you need to pick up someone from the Airport, The M50 is a godsend for 22 out of 24 hours of the day.

Have not the foggiest what your point about NEW car sales been down

If everyone was anticipating their new LA style freeway, they'd be buying more new cars, surely?

and car fetish stuff?

It has to do with the kind of language I hear motorist-bashers use. "Cars want to do X" "Planning policy Y was about happy cars, not happy people". You followed on with this kind of language by saying

you wrote:

CAR traffic does NOT want to stay out of the City

All I did was point out that cars, or car traffic does not want to do anything, because cars and traffic are not living things. Now, you may not be entirely wrong about the broader point, but I suspect the reason for this kind of language being used is to make it look like the arguer is suggesting that the car is thing in question, not the person using it. But you cannot control things directly, you can only control things by controlling people.

New Car Sales down while economy is growing. That is caused by Sterling/BREXIT. What are the 2nd hand import nos from the UK in the same period like?

Good question. Do you have the figures?

Do you accept that a STROAD can UN-Stroaded?

Yes, not only can stroads be un-stroaded, they should be wherever possible. My video above demonstrated what to do with stroads. That's why we build bypasses.

The current N6 and N59 should indeed be de-stroaded by turning them into local streets. But they're currently National roads for a very good reason - they are key routes around the region and are the pinch points facilitating long distance travel. Absent the alternative route now being proposed, you could only de-stroad the current routes by turning them into roads, and with the whole Headford Road thing, that would be a nightmare.

m17

The galway outer bypass in 2025

what_traffic

m17 wrote: »

The galway outer bypass in 2025

That project is dead for a couple of years now. Its now called the Galway City Distributor Road.

marno21

what_traffic wrote: »

That project is dead for a couple of years now. Its now called the Galway City Distributor Road.

It's actually the N6 Galway City Ring Road. The title of the scheme thread reflects this. It's not a distributor road.

what_traffic

marno21 wrote: »

It's actually the N6 Galway City Ring Road. The title of the scheme thread reflects this. It's not a distributor road.

NOT a bypass.

SeanW

what_traffic wrote: »

NOT a bypass.

Ring roads serve the function of bypasses, though sometimes it is less clear that they are so.

Ring roads, or bypasses or whatever, are also not the same as "Distributor" roads, those serve an entirely different function.

Building the "ring road" or whatever it is called, will allow people to get from the East of the country to get to points West of the Corrib river without driving on city streets. The current N6 is not suitable for either short haul city usage or long distance through usage.

At any rate, why is the road going so deep below the surface? I thought some of the route was going "cut and cover?"

what_traffic

SeanW wrote: »

Ring roads serve the function of bypasses, though sometimes it is less clear that they are so.

Ring roads, or bypasses or whatever, are also not the same as "Distributor" roads, those serve an entirely different function.

This Ring Roads primary function will be to distribute Car traffic into the Galway City Road network.
The designers own data shows that there are very low percentages of car traffic that will be using it as a bypass if it is ever built.

Zzippy

SeanW wrote: »

At any rate, why is the road going so deep below the surface? I thought some of the route was going "cut and cover?"

There are two sections of tunnel in the proposed road - under the racecourse and under the quarry west of the Headford Road. The rendering looks to be the second of these, with the River Corrib in the middle distance.

serfboard

cgcsb wrote: »

That's great and as has been established only a tiny number of car journeys are attempting to actually bypass Galway, only 5% by Arup's estimation.

I don't think you've got that figure quite right. IIRC, the 5% refers to people driving the full extent of a bypass - i.e. from Furbo to Doughiska.

marno21 wrote: »

The motorway is only going as far as just beyond the N59 junction.

I don't know if there are percentages for N59->Doughiska. Anecdotally, there are huge numbers of cars using the N59 (try getting out of the NUIG Sports Centre at Dangan to see what I'm talking about). Unfortunately I can't back that up with stats because TII only provides a counter several kilometers north/west of Moycullen (7.5K AADT). This doesn't measure traffic coming in on this road into Galway (because large numbers join at Moycullen and points south), but does maybe give some indicator of long-distance numbers on the route.

Dr_serious2

cgcsb wrote: »

The current proportion of commuters to Dublin City Centre using sustainable modes despite very poor investment in sustainable modes. This is a very achievable target.



If the full strategy is implemented, this will be a good start

https://www.galwaycity.ie/galway-transport-strategy

Then start replacing the parking with better cycling and walking infrastructure, make more streets bus only etc.



What development would you have in mind? because any development that substantially increases motorised traffic is certainly not sustainable or in line with policy.


Again the long distance traffic bypassing Galway city is negligible, owing to Galway's position, west of which there isn't much of anything. The notion that we have to spend such vast sums on a motorway bypass to connect a sparsely populated region like Conemara to the East and South is ridiculous. If it were scaled back to a single lane road it would still be a massive abuse of scarce resources and contrary to national policy.

Your condescending tone to Connemara is sickening. I am one of the 'not much of anything' that lives in Connemara. The lack of a bypass is a constant thorn in the side of the families of Connemara, many of whom want to live there but cannot due to people like you complaining about every single improvement we seek to our terrible infrastructure. Both of the main roads through Connemara desperately need overhauls. Improvement to both have been on the table for decades and both have been refused again and again and again. Deaths have occured. I doubt our plight will be of interest to you, however. You probably think I should cycle the 55 miles to Galway or get the non-existent public transport on our substandard roads.

xckjoo

Dr_serious2 wrote: »

Your condescending tone to Connemara is sickening. I am one of the 'not much of anything' that lives in Connemara. The lack of a bypass is a constant thorn in the side of the families of Connemara, many of whom want to live there but cannot due to people like you complaining about every single improvement we seek to our terrible infrastructure. Both of the main roads through Connemara desperately need overhauls. Improvement to both have been on the table for decades and both have been refused again and again and again. Deaths have occured. I doubt our plight will be of interest to you, however. You probably think I should cycle the 55 miles to Galway or get the non-existent public transport on our substandard roads.

I think the idea would be that if there was less private car usage among people within and around the city there would be more space for people like yourself that have to drive. Cars are invaluable when you're out in the country but become counter productive in densely populated areas

cgcsb

Dr_serious2 wrote: »

Your condescending tone to Connemara is sickening. I am one of the 'not much of anything' that lives in Connemara. The lack of a bypass is a constant thorn in the side of the families of Connemara, many of whom want to live there but cannot due to people like you complaining about every single improvement we seek to our terrible infrastructure. Both of the main roads through Connemara desperately need overhauls. Improvement to both have been on the table for decades and both have been refused again and again and again. Deaths have occured. I doubt our plight will be of interest to you, however. You probably think I should cycle the 55 miles to Galway or get the non-existent public transport on our substandard roads.

Oh here we go. An emotional plea on behalf of the 'people of conemara' for a several hundred million euro motorway mega project that serves a smattering of houses.

Acknowledging that there's next nothing in terms of settlements west of Galway is not condecention it's recognising a fact. Your emotional connection to driving faster in your car is irrelevant.

The facts remain the same. I wouldn't count on this being built. You should be adjetating for a car free city centre if anything

Dr_serious2

cgcsb wrote: »

Oh here we go. An emotional plea on behalf of the 'people of conemara' for a several hundred million euro motorway mega project that serves a smattering of houses.

Acknowledging that there's next nothing in terms of settlements west of Galway is not condecention it's recognising a fact. Your emotional connection to driving faster in your car is irrelevant.

The facts remain the same. I wouldn't count on this being built. You should be adjetating for a car free city centre if anything

You even spelled Connemara wrong, shows your lack of insight into the place. Can we assume that you are also against the upgrading of the two main routes into Connemara, including the so called national route, the N59, which in places looks like a country boreen? I suspect you are a contrarian who objects to everything and anything.

woohoo!!!

Traffic has been brutal in and around Galway for over 20 years. It's absolutely atrocious getting in and out of several industrial estates. Getting cars out of the city is a must. There are pluses and negatives with solutions offered and difficult decisions will have to be made. Get on with it.

cgcsb

Dr_serious2 wrote: »

You even spelled Connemara wrong, shows your lack of insight into the place.

Obviously you have no argument if you're resorting to just pointing out spelling errors.

Dr_serious2 wrote: »

Can we assume that you are also against the upgrading of the two main routes into Connemara, including the so called national route, the N59, which in places looks like a country boreen?

No you may not

Dr_serious2 wrote: »

I suspect you are a contrarian who objects to everything and anything.

You suspect incorrectly. My preference would be to spend less money and radically improve the public transport and cycling facilities of Galway.

Carol25

cgcsb wrote: »

Obviously you have no argument if you're resorting to just pointing out spelling errors.



No you may not


You suspect incorrectly. My preference would be to spend less money and radically improve the public transport and cycling facilities of Galway.

On what roads does this public transport go? Same argument over and over again on this thread. Galway doesn’t have the infrastructure, period. Stop pretending it does and that there are real alternative options. There aren’t and won’t be until the appropriate infrastructure is built. No one opposes public transport options. Let’s see your suggestions using the current roads, start a thread about it, with real viable options. I asked others on here months ago for similar suggestions and got nothing.
The mask is slipping and the agenda of those opposed to development is slowly but surely being revealed...

cgcsb

Carol25 wrote: »

On what roads does this public transport go? Same argument over and over again on this thread.

If you Google the Galway Transport Strategy you'll see a fairly comprehensive plan which will bring about car bans on the salmon weir bridge and a number of streets along with some park and ride facilities.

Carol25 wrote: »

Galway doesn’t have the infrastructure, period. Stop pretending it does and that there are real alternative options. There aren’t and won’t be until the appropriate infrastructure is built.

100% correct Galway doesn't have good PT infrastructure, a modest investment can build a large amount of bus priority and cycling facilities which will be extremely effective at reducing traffic, the proposed bypass will have little impact for a whopping half a bil

Carol25 wrote: »

The mask is slipping and the agenda of those opposed to development is slowly but surely being revealed...

Have you been at the cooking sherry? My 'agenda' is quite transparent

Carol25

cgcsb wrote: »

If you Google the Galway Transport Strategy you'll see a fairly comprehensive plan which will bring about car bans on the salmon weir bridge and a number of streets along with some park and ride facilities.

100% correct Galway doesn't have good PT infrastructure, a modest investment can build a large amount of bus priority and cycling facilities which will be extremely effective at reducing traffic, the proposed bypass will have little impact for a whopping half a bil


Have you been at the cooking sherry? My 'agenda' is quite transparent

So your answer is you’re opposed to anything that involves building new roads? Would it be correct to say you only support public transport initiatives? And out of interest, did you or did you not support the construction of the current M6 motorway?

P.s. For my own info, how do you cook sherry?!

cgcsb

Carol25 wrote: »

So your answer is you’re opposed to anything that involves building new roads?

No, where are you getting this from?

Carol25 wrote: »

Would it be correct to say you only support public transport initiatives?

No, for example I'd support the construction of the M20 and M28 schemes and the improvement of national secondary routes across the country.

Carol25 wrote: »

And out of interest, did you or did you not support the construction of the current M6 motorway?

Yes, there was a good case for it being built.

Carol25

cgcsb wrote: »

No, where are you getting this from?



No, for example I'd support the construction of the M20 and M28 schemes and the improvement of national secondary routes across the country.



Yes, there was a good case for it being built.

I think if you supported those motorways and have stated there was a case for the M6 to be built but not the Galway bypass you clearly must have an agenda. As there is 100% more of a ‘case’ for the bypass to be built, and was even when the M6 was under construction. Perhaps you’re one of the people being affected by the routing of the bypass?

cgcsb

Carol25 wrote: »

I think if you supported those motorways and have stated there was a case for the M6 to be built but not the Galway bypass you clearly must have an agenda. As there is 100% more of a ‘case’ for the bypass to be built, and was even when the M6 was under construction. Perhaps you’re one of the people being affected by the routing of the bypass?

I have outlined in this thread why I am opposed to the bypass, you call it an 'agenda', your agenda must be the contrary then. None of my opposition to the scheme can be applied to schemes like the M6. Regarding the bypass, In summary:
-It has no function as a national primary route
-It doesn't cater to the dominant commuter type that uses existing routes I.e. suburban commuters
-It is extremely expensive due to geography
- there are no large settlements west of Galway, thereby negating the need for a bypass.
- It is in contravention of the national spatial strategy
-It will increase congestion in the long term

marno21

cgcsb wrote: »

I have outlined in this thread why I am opposed to the bypass, you call it an 'agenda', your agenda must be the contrary then. None of my opposition to the scheme can be applied to schemes like the M6. Regarding the bypass, In summary:
-It has no function as a national primary route
-It doesn't cater to the dominant commuter type that uses existing routes I.e. suburban commuters
-It is extremely expensive due to geography
- there are no large settlements west of Galway, thereby negating the need for a bypass.
- It is in contravention of the national spatial strategy
-It will increase congestion in the long term

Does that mean that the M6 should end at the Coolagh roundabout? That M6 traffic approaching Galway should not be distributed to the various other N roads that connect in to Galway?

The M8 approaching Cork is fed into the N40 allowing traffic to be distributed to the other national roads around Cork

The M7 at Limerick is connected to the N18 and M20 to distribute traffic around Limerick

The M9 at Waterford ends at the N25 where traffic can go east or west of the River Suir

The M6 stops dead at an at grade roundabout, before traffic is sent on a mish mash of everything from dual carriageway to glorified city street around the city. It is not a solution, hence the need for this scheme.

what_traffic

marno21 wrote: »

Does that mean that the M6 should end at the Coolagh roundabout? That M6 traffic approaching Galway should not be distributed to the various other N roads that connect in to Galway?

The M8 approaching Cork is fed into the N40 allowing traffic to be distributed to the other national roads around Cork

The M7 at Limerick is connected to the N18 and M20 to distribute traffic around Limerick

The M9 at Waterford ends at the N25 where traffic can go east or west of the River Suir

The M6 stops dead at an at grade roundabout, before traffic is sent on a mish mash of everything from dual carriageway to glorified city street around the city. It is not a solution, hence the need for this scheme.

i.e a Northern Distributor Road, more commonly known as the Galway Ring Road. Can a distributor road be a "National Primary Route"?

Sam Russell

marno21 wrote: »

Does that mean that the M6 should end at the Coolagh roundabout? That M6 traffic approaching Galway should not be distributed to the various other N roads that connect in to Galway?

Bothar Na dTreabh should be free flow along its length from the M6 all the way to Terryland with a new bridge over the Corrib to Newcastle. There is quite a width of available land to put in bus lanes and cycle lane over much of it.

It is the Terryland portion that is the problem once the free flow is done.

The addition of P&R and proper public transport would reduce the problem, particularly if it is nearly free.

Currently it is madness with so many cars carrying single occupants when PT should be used, but given the one-off housing and the subsequent car dependence, there has to be a way to get modal shift required to achieve sanity. That should be the aim - not more roads.

marno21

Sam Russell wrote: »

Bothar Na dTreabh should be free flow along its length from the M6 all the way to Terryland with a new bridge over the Corrib to Newcastle. There is quite a width of available land to put in bus lanes and cycle lane over much of it.

It is the Terryland portion that is the problem once the free flow is done.

The addition of P&R and proper public transport would reduce the problem, particularly if it is nearly free.

Currently it is madness with so many cars carrying single occupants when PT should be used, but given the one-off housing and the subsequent car dependence, there has to be a way to get modal shift required to achieve sanity. That should be the aim - not more roads.

Yes, but the cost of all that would quite likely exceed the cost of the new ring road, cause insane levels of disruption during construction, require extensive demolition and attract eye watering levels of objection

There's a reason it was ruled out in the planning phase of the new road

marno21

what_traffic wrote: »

i.e a Northern Distributor Road, more commonly known as the Galway Ring Road. Can a distributor road be a "National Primary Route"?

What's there at the moment is more akin to the technical term for a distributor road than the new road

The new road has the feature of not disrupting mainline traffic at junctions, something not regularly seen with "distributor roads"

Sam Russell

marno21 wrote: »

Yes, but the cost of all that would quite likely exceed the cost of the new ring road, cause insane levels of disruption during construction, require extensive demolition and attract eye watering levels of objection

There's a reason it was ruled out in the planning phase of the new road

Are they the same planners that approved the M17 - M18?

I have yet to see a photo* (from our eponymous poster) of the M17 motorway with any traffic on it that would justify it, while there are mentions on AA Roadwatch most days of congestion at Claregalway and coming into Terryland.

* There was heavy traffic one day - but that was before it opened and was a charity run of tractors.

cgcsb

Sam Russell wrote: »

Are they the same planners that approved the M17 - M18?

I have yet to see a photo* (from our eponymous poster) of the M17 motorway with any traffic on it that would justify it, while there are mentions on AA Roadwatch most days of congestion at Claregalway and coming into Terryland.

* There was heavy traffic one day - but that was before it opened and was a charity run of tractors.

Can safely say the M17 was a waste of money, completely overspeced, of the times I've been on it, the other cars were driven by people who clearly never done a driving test either, doing 20km/hr on the fast lane, driving right up behind me, to about 3cm from my bumper before overtaking, full stops, reversing manouvers to missed exists, you name if I've seen it on that road. The money would have been better spent teaching the locals how to drive.

marno21

Sam Russell wrote: »

Are they the same planners that approved the M17 - M18?

I have yet to see a photo* (from our eponymous poster) of the M17 motorway with any traffic on it that would justify it, while there are mentions on AA Roadwatch most days of congestion at Claregalway and coming into Terryland.

* There was heavy traffic one day - but that was before it opened and was a charity run of tractors.

This is what I've said about the M17 in the past:

marno21 wrote: »

I feel like a lot of what I've said about the M17/M18 is misinterpreted.

I fully support the idea of upgrading the N17 and N18. However, the main purpose of the two roads since they were designated as such back in the 1970s, was to connect into Galway (the N18 originally stopped in Oranmore and continued to Claregalway as the N64 but this was later amended).

I put up this diagram as to what I believe should have happened with the M17/M18 (Galway bypass routing is indicative only - and wrong) :



It would've provided the most benefit for everyone. Direct N17 and N18 links into Galway, and a link between the two for those bypassing Galway. The M17/M18 as it was built provides massive benefits for N/S traffic but little to no benefit for anyone going to Galway. Claregalway is still a mess, N84 traffic is still heavy.

Sam Russell

@Marno21

Yes, but they still made a pig's ear of it. They will be making a pig's ear of the by-pass as well. Same planners - same mistakes.

The problem for roads is all the roundabouts and the lack of free flow for the existing N6.

The traffic problem is caused by the lack of PT, particularly the lack of any PT crossing the QB.

For the cost of the by-pass, they could sort out the N6 and provide free PT for a century. [Well a long time. Perhaps even a Luas.]

As I've said before, the M17 was built a hundred Kms too far north and should have been called the M20.

marno21

Sam Russell wrote: »

Yes, but they still made a pig's ear of it. They will be making a pig's ear of the by-pass as well. Same planners - same mistakes.

I don't think they are making a pigs ear of the bypass. I think it's a better more effective scheme than the previously planned N6 Galway City Outer bypass

Sam Russell wrote: »

The problem for roads is all the roundabouts and the lack of free flow for the existing N6.

The traffic problem is caused by the lack of PT, particularly the lack of any PT crossing the QB.

Once the new M6 is built the existing N6 becomes an urban road which can be turned into a quality bus corridor quite easily. That's not feasible without a new road.

Sam Russell wrote: »

For the cost of the by-pass, they could sort out the N6 and provide free PT for a century. [Well a long time. Perhaps even a Luas.]

I don't agree with this - the costs of grade seperating the existing N6 would be exoribant and most of the route is quite poor quality anyway and isn't worth saving.

Sam Russell wrote: »

As I've said before, the M17 was built a hundred Kms too far north and should have been called the M20.

I disagree. The N17 was carrying 20k vehicles. It did need an upgrade. It's just that the upgrade was not done optimally and now we have a quiet motorway and traffic clogging Claregalway every day still.

cgcsb

marno21 wrote: »

Once the new M6 is built the existing N6 becomes an urban road which can be turned into a quality bus corridor quite easily. That's not feasible without a new road.

At present there is enough space on the existing N6 for continous bus priority. a frequent orbital bus service could be implemented for buttons. Replicate the same priority along all radial routes, build some p&r and ban cars from the centre and boom traffic is gone for a fraction of the price of the bypass and we won't be taking a massive dump all over Kyoto

Carol25

cgcsb wrote: »

At present there is enough space on the existing N6 for continous bus priority. a frequent orbital bus service could be implemented for buttons. Replicate the same priority along all radial routes, build some p&r and ban cars from the centre and boom traffic is gone for a fraction of the price of the bypass and we won't be taking a massive dump all over Kyoto

No there is not enough space on the existing N6 for continuous bus priority. Where is this space? It doesn’t exist. Stop making false statements.

Sam Russell

Carol25 wrote: »

No there is not enough space on the existing N6 for continuous bus priority. Where is this space? It doesn’t exist. Stop making false statements.

Well, looking at Google maps, there is plenty of room to leave a bus lane and one vehicle lane both ways. There is also a cycle lane already. However, there is green land either side of most of it.

Perhaps a bit of a pinch at the Tuam Rd, and perhaps at Ballbane Rd, but not much. The centre reservation is quite generous in places and could give enough to allow room for another car lane.

cgcsb

Carol25 wrote: »

No there is not enough space on the existing N6 for continuous bus priority. Where is this space? It doesn’t exist. Stop making false statements.

Are you familiar with the road? It's 4 lanes the whole way. Turn 2 of them into bus lanes and that's half the work. The old Tuam road is also wide enough for same almost all the way to woodquay. College road has plenty of scope to be widened all the way into the bus station. The bus connects engineers will find Galway a doddle to bring in bus priority, there's so much space. They cbc project in Dublin had some seriously tough parts to work with. Bringing in a quality bus system in Galway will be comparatively very easy.

SeanW

cgcsb wrote: »

I have outlined in this thread why I am opposed to the bypass, you call it an 'agenda', your agenda must be the contrary then. None of my opposition to the scheme can be applied to schemes like the M6. Regarding the bypass, In summary:
-It has no function as a national primary route
-It doesn't cater to the dominant commuter type that uses existing routes I.e. suburban commuters
-It is extremely expensive due to geography
- there are no large settlements west of Galway, thereby negating the need for a bypass.
- It is in contravention of the national spatial strategy
-It will increase congestion in the long term

In summary:

• The current route is not a bypass - and it never was. The term "bypass" for the existing stroads is at best a terminological inexactitude.
• Your 5% figure is misleading because it excludes legitimate bypass use. Spiddal to Claregalway or Oughterard to Athlone and other long distance regional combinations are excluded from your 5% figure because users doing these routes would not use the entire bypass. The claim is misleading.
• It isn't intended to cater to suburban commuters.
• The old GCOB was going to be a lot better and cheaper, but these days we have a hardcore of "object to everything" serial litigators often lead the by the likes of Peter Sweetman. With the GCOB, they just got lucky. As a consequence, the job is now more expensive.
• With continuing development and inflation, it is cheaper to do the job now as opposed to years down the line. That is true of virtually all infrastructure projects.
• "There are no large settlements ..." is type of circular argument used by drug warriors "drugs are bad because they're illegal, and illegal because they're bad". The Western county is no doubt stunted by the fact that it is not accessible from the rest of the country except by a long detour along Galway city streets.
• Is the "National Spatial Strategy" to maintain stroads in prepetuity? If so, it should be abandoned.
• It will not increase congestion in the long term unless it is allowed to evolve like the M50 in Dublin. Even if that occurs, the M50 is still a useful bypass of Dublin City outside peak hours. If you need to go from Mullingar to Dublin Airport (just one example), the M50 is awesome 20/24 hours of the day. But even that could occur only over many decades of unplanned development, and then only if no measures whatsoever were taken to make it easier to get around the city without a car. Which no-one is advocating. What's more, even in Dublin the construction of the M50 and the simultaneous neglect of public transport has not stopped the city from creating vibrant public spaces like Grafton St. The same seems at least in part true in Galway.

Did I miss anything?

marno21

SeanW wrote: »

In summary:

• The current route is not a bypass - and it never was. The term "bypass" for the existing stroads is at best a terminological inexactitude.
• Your 5% figure is misleading because it excludes legitimate bypass use. Spiddal to Claregalway or Oughterard to Athlone and other long distance regional combinations are excluded from your 5% figure because users doing these routes would not use the entire bypass. The claim is misleading.
  
• It isn't intended to cater to suburban commuters.
• The old GCOB was going to be a lot better and cheaper, but these days we have a hardcore of "object to everything" serial litigators often lead the by the likes of Peter Sweetman. With the GCOB, they just got lucky. As a consequence, the job is now more expensive.
• With continuing development and inflation, it is cheaper to do the job now as opposed to years down the line. That is true of virtually all infrastructure projects.
• "There are no large settlements ..." is type of circular argument used by drug warriors "drugs are bad because they're illegal, and illegal because they're bad". The Western county is no doubt stunted by the fact that it is not accessible from the rest of the country except by a long detour along Galway city streets.
• Is the "National Spatial Strategy" to maintain stroads in prepetuity? If so, it should be abandoned.
• It will not increase congestion in the long term unless it is allowed to evolve like the M50 in Dublin. Even if that occurs, the M50 is still a useful bypass of Dublin City outside peak hours. If you need to go from Mullingar to Dublin Airport (just one example), the M50 is awesome 20/24 hours of the day. But even that could occur only over many decades of unplanned development, and then only if no measures whatsoever were taken to make it easier to get around the city without a car. Which no-one is advocating. What's more, even in Dublin the construction of the M50 and the simultaneous neglect of public transport has not stopped the city from creating vibrant public spaces like Grafton St. The same seems at least in part true in Galway.

Did I miss anything?

I agree with most of what you are saying, but there is a certain level of commuter catering involved here. The presence of a junction for the business park in Parkmore is testament to this.

marno21

marno21 wrote: »

I agree with most of what you are saying, but there is a certain level of commuter catering involved here. The presence of a junction for the business park in Parkmore is testament to this.

Given there is a larger population working in the Ballybrit /Parkmore area than in most large towns in the country, it would be farcical in the extreme to not put a junction to cater for this area

marno21

Deleted User wrote: »

Given there is a larger population working in the Ballybrit /Parkmore area than in most large towns in the country, it would be farcical in the extreme to not put a junction to cater for this area

I'm not disagreeing with putting in a Parkmore junction. I'm saying that the idea that the bypass will not be used for commuting goes out the window by virtue of it having a junction at Parkmore.