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Galway Ring Road- are there better ways to solve traffic?
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This is reality, not an ideal vision. Removing a lane on the Quincentenary Bridge for buses would result in civil unrest. Political considerations have to be taken into account here. If it was that easy it would have been done.How can there be space on the Quincentenary Bridge for thousands of single-occupant cars yet no space for multi-occupant buses transporting a much larger number of people per square metre?
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This is reality, not an ideal vision.
Removing a lane on the Quincentenary Bridge for buses would result in civil unrest.
Political considerations have to be taken into account here.
If it was that easy COLOR="Red"]politically[/COLOR it would have been done.
Finally we're getting to the core of the issue.
For the past 25 years in Galway (and ten years in the Roads forum on Boards?) we've had people insisting that the "only solution" to traffic and transport problems is to build a new highway.
There's "no room" for bus lanes, "no space" for cycleways, goes the same old argument, over and over again.
BS.
Geometry is universal, immutable and unarguable.
That's why the real obstacle is not one of roads/traffic engineering, but of politics.
Can we stop all the pretence now please?
https://bikeportland.org/2018/11/15/a-little-big-shift-portland-can-restripe-2-of-roads-for-60-more-capacity-2921520 -
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There are variations on BRT. Galway is not a metropolis after all (despite the grandiloquence of the City Council's failed Smarter Travel Plan, which referred to the "metropolitan area" of Galway, as if our small European town was Curitiba or Jakarta.
The real issue is that Galway needs an orbital public transport service for commuters, and to crowbar commuters out of their comfy cars will require both carrot and stick.
The carrot is a fast, reliable, efficient and comfortable service that whisks commuters to their destination without delay and with the minimum of hassle. That means high quality conveyances, high frequency at peak times and a high standard of facilities (eg stops that are more akin to stations).
The stick will have to be a range of restrictions on car use, which is why building a cross-town motorway for car commuters will undermine the development of modern public transport in Galway for a generation (until the N6GCRR inevitable ends up the way the M50 is now).
At the moment, the City Council contemptuously leaves bus passengers standing in the rain and mud waiting for infrequent buses that don't arrive on time and take stupidly circuitous routes to places commuters don't want to go to.
If you live in Knocknacarra and work in Parkmore or Ballybrit, you just want to get on the bus and go straight to work. Why would you have any interest in going through Eyre Square, just because the bus driver's union says you have to and because we're not allowed to do anything with transport that will upset the triumvirate of motorists, mandarins and merchants?
Agreed with all that. I'm just not convinced BRT is anything special, maybe it's a catchword in the Irish context, but for me it's just a normal 21st century bus network. You need to understand my point of view. Funnily enough, the image you posted looks exactly like the buses in the city where I am from. They have had those for good 15 years at least, from early 2000s.
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You obviously don't know what BRT is, and that's fair enough - you're not interested in it.
BRT is a completely different way of thinking about Bus Transport. Yes, the mode of transport is a bus, but to say that it's the same thing is like comparing a steam train with a TGV - they're essentially the same, but there's also a world of difference.
OK, so I understand now. I still maintain that BRT is a buzzword for British/Irish folks. If you google it, you'd find that the term is excessively used in Ireland and the examples given are from the US and/or South America (not exactly developed world) and not from continental Europe. Also, I'd tend to argue that in their case they have much more space to work with and they are likely all highly road/car dependent societies, hence you wouldn't find many references in Europe which has different circumstances.
For me, where I come from, all that bar the bus lanes is just a standard city public transport bus. This is what we expect city buses to be like. It's been a norm since early 2000s in my city, some of the features you listed actually even since 1990s and earlier. I think the issue we have is that we have different reference points and that's all
I'm just surprised that NTA need to hold on to this special fancy name like it's something better, given that these city buses are the norm in Western/Central Europe. It should be the norm.
• Modern, attractive multi-door vehicles - check, multi-door since 1970s
• Uses own BRT lane or shared bus/BRT lane - nope, it's not needed
• BRT vehicle given priority at traffic signals - partial check, but generally not needed
• High quality stops and level boarding on and off vehicles - check, since early 2000s
• Off-board ticketing (tickets purchased in advance or Leap cards) - advance tickets since 1980s, electronic stuff since late 2000s
• Conveniently located stops with optimal spacing - check
• The stops for BRT are completely different as well. They are more like the Luas stop - check
• A High quality 'platform' feel - check, since late 1990s
• Larger enhanced shelters with real time electronic passenger information - check, since early 2000s
• Ticket machines and validators - check, since 1980s
• CCTV - not sure, but probably check at this stage
• Mixture of seating types - check, since 1990s
• 30% fewer stops, around 400m apart facilitating faster, more regulated journeys - check
• Cycle parking at key locations - nope, don't need that
Regardless, I'd support this for Galway, provided that they go hybrid/electric/LPG as part of the roll-out. Diesel is just not the way to go. If they go with this but use diesel, it would be a huge disappointment for me.0 -
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The late American president, Ronald Reagan once said of a problem the US faced during the mid-late 20th century:
He had his pluses and minuses, but the principle is often correct. Many of Ireland's problems today fit this bill. They aren't easy to fix but they are simple: We don't have enough of anything.The question is not an easy one, but it is simple.- Not enough housing in Dublin, so there are lots of people homeless that shouldn't be (because they're not insane or using drugs etc), too many more living in hotel rooms, those "lucky" enough to be in private accommodation are often paying eye watering sums in rent with little security, very often in 3rd world apartments where they can hear their neighbors going to the toilet and every movement thereupon.
- Not enough public transport, especially in the main cities. Dublin in particular has been starved of investment in public transport, it should have a full network of trams, at least one Metro line, DART Underground and so on. And it should have had them 10 years ago. What's here now is a sick joke.
- It's the same problem in the smaller cities, Cork at least should have its own Luas by now, maybe Galway and Limerick as well.
- Not enough roads. Too many roads are slow and dangerous (like many of the National Secondary roads) and too many long distance N-roads still go through towns and cities instead of around them.
If it was that simple, everyone would cycle everywhere (or crush into maxed out buses) and there would never be a traffic problem anywhere, ever again.How can there be space on the Quincentenary Bridge for thousands of single-occupant cars yet no space for multi-occupant buses transporting a much larger number of people per square metre?
In the real world, people do drive from place to place and for entirely legitimate reasons. That's why we need roads as well as streets. Not stroads that try to do both and fail, at both. Which is what Galway has, and has always had. Absent a bypass, it will always be full of stroads. Nothing you've said avoids this fact.
I doubt that anyone here said that the bypass was the "only solution" but "part of the solution".Finally we're getting to the core of the issue.
For the past 25 years in Galway (and ten years in the Roads forum on Boards?) we've had people insisting that the "only solution" to traffic and transport problems is to build a new highway.
And please stop with those idiotic images pretending that a small Irish barely-a-city has the same dynamics as a mega-city like Singapore. It's bizarre.
So you keep telling us, absent key context.Geometry is universal, immutable and unarguable.
The fact is simple. A village like Claregalway or even a small town like Longford, has dramatically different problems and needs to a mega-city like New York, London, Seoul or Singapore. The solutions to a problem in each of the areas suggested are going to differ - you can build your way out of a traffic jam in Claregalway or Longford, but if you tried the same thing in New York City, London or Seoul it would be a disaster.
Galway is somewhere in between Longford and London, there is some flexibility about what solutions can be used, ideally a wide range of them.
The "real obstacle" is that the problem requires a multi-faceted approach to solve it, but all we're reading on this board is Animal Farm-eseque mantras of "two wheels good, four wheels bad". It's more complicated than that, and that has been pointed out to you.That's why the real obstacle is not one of roads/traffic engineering, but of politics.
The N6 is a stroad and it probably always was to some extent. It was clearly never intended to be a fast way to get to the Western County, between the re-using of the Headford Road and all the traffic lights and roundabouts on the existing route. Calling it a "road" either today or in yesteryear, would be generous at best.Precedent is the most obvious, because we've been here already. The existing N6 was planned as a ring road around the city, but the Council ruined it by giving "planning" permission for large traffic-generating developments all around it, including huge areas of surface car parking. All low density, massively wasteful of valuable urban real estate and hugely damaging to the viability of public transport.
The M50 may not be perfect but it is a qualified success. If you are in Kildare and you have to pick up someone from Dublin Airport and their flight comes in at 10PM (maybe even 10AM for that matter) you can use the M50 and it will be fine. Same is true if you are in Kilcock, have a Friday off and your mate in Bray says "come down to Bray and we'll paint the town red this weekend" and you leave Kilcock at mid-day, again, happy days. Before the M50 was built you'd have had to go through Dublin City Centre for these journeys. And because this was before 1990, you would probably have used leaded petrol to do this. :eek:The M50 is another example of the way we use bypasses in Ireland. Need we go into details?
Even if this is true (and it's debatable at best) does it matter? Take a small town that has 5000-15000 people. Assume that it has 10,000 cars/lorries going through it every day on a national route, doing a journey that should not involve the town. Now assume the town is bypassed, the 10,000 cars/lorries are taken out of the town, say that 100 people decide to drive inside the town that otherwise would not have. Does it matter? Because 99% of the traffic is gone, and it's perfectly fine to lower speed limits on the bypassed streets, rededicate space to other uses etc. Again, a small town has different dynamics to a large metropolis. But as we will see, even your claim is debatable at best.Additional precedents include other towns and cities that were bypassed and which subsequently saw a rise in the total number of car trips and in modal share for driving.
Have you been in Dublin City Centre recently? Around the time the M50 was built, Grafton Street was mostly pedestrianised. Today it stands as an example of how to capture value in a space. And the M50 did not "donut hole" the city - in peak hours every mode of transport getting into the central area is over-subscribed. DARTs? Crush loaded. Maynooth commuter? Often resembles the 7:15 local to Calcutta. Red/Green Luas? Useless if you live too close to the city because all the trams are jammed by the time they get to your stop. The roads/stroads/streets are all the same. The only form of transport that isn't maxed out is the new commuter service between Hazelhatch/Celbridge and Grand Canal Dock, but that's only because the government didn't fund the Dart Underground, so that journey involves a circuitous route around Dublin, crossing the Liffey twice (once at Houston, again on the Loop line) never reaching 20 miles an hour doing so, therefore a ride that should take 5/10 minutes on Dart Underground instead takes much of an hour. The whole thing is a sick joke.If that is an incorrect assessment, can you name any bypassed town in Ireland that has experienced a decreased modal share for driving and an increased modal share for public transport, cycling and walking? If there is one it would be good to know, because it would make an interesting and informative study.
Whether it does this or not, it will make it reasonably feasible to get from much of the country to Western County Galway and vice-versa. That in and of itself is good. The only question is how to prevent the bypass from becoming stroad-like in peak hours as it gets too much commuter traffic.PR is either (a) the promotion of the long-demanded "bypass" (now called a ring road or expressway) on the basis that it will make more development possible, or (b) promotion of development on the basis of its proximity to the proposed new road.
Most people here would agree with that, myself included. But it's a separate part of the same problem. We need more railways and we need more roads. We need more of everything.They're not building railways with the same speed and enthusiasm, so the result in almost all cases is car-dependent sprawl.
Motorways are to help people get around, quickly, efficiently and safely. People frequently have legitimate reasons for driving from point to point. That's why most countries have motorways in one form or another.What are motorways for but to make more driving more easy?0 -
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what_traffic wrote: »Remove a lane? You are putting the cart before the ass in your reality. Start with a City Orbital bus service over the Quincentenary Bridge first. Once frequency and usage increases on it - then the Civil unrest/ political consideration could be flipped the other way towards the more efficient modes.
Note that the default view, here on Boards and in the mainstream media, is from inside a car. From that metal-and-glass-shielded perspective, reallocating road space from the most inefficient mode (single-occupant cars) to the most efficient modes (public transport, cycling and walking) is invariably seen as "removal" and "reduction", when in fact the exact opposite is the case.
But we've always known that the real demand and the supposed justification for a "bypass" comes not from data, not from careful analysis of journey origins and trip purposes, and not from a desire to fundamentally change travel behaviour and to bring about significant modal shift, but to relieve car traffic congestion while maintaining and even strengthening the status quo.
Increasing road capacity for car commuters in Galway is not an engineering necessity, it's a political imperative.0 -
A bit of catch 22. We need flying busses for Galway!Zzippy wrote:There would be no incentive to use such a service if it's stuck in the same traffic as the drivers/potential users are in. There has to be a perceptible advantage to public transport for it to become popular. 0 -
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I've seen variations of this image a lot on this thread and I have to wonder.
If a fellow is in Oughterard and he needs to get to somewhere in Roscommon (for example) how should he do this?
According to this image - in the context in which it is presented - he should drive along the N59 to the junction with the L5381 (where the 50kph speed limit begins), stop, get out of the car, take out the bicycle, put the car on his back, cycle through Galway city streets with the car on his back, and plonk the car back down on the road where the N6 is no longer a stroad to continue his journey. This is obviously ridiculous, but to say that the bicycle/bus is the ONLY solution to problems in a city where all the long distance roads are stroads, where short haul commuter traffic is mixed in with national traffic, is specious at best.
To be sure, it is not possible or even desirable for everyone to commute to work door-to-door by car. that's what big cities have Metros, trams, cycle lanes etc. No-one here is suggesting that everyone should drive everywhere, even in Galway though it is barely a city.
What is being suggested however is that 1) The existing N roads in Galway city are stroads and 2) that means access problems between the county West of the Corrib and the rest of the country.
Since Galway City is playing host to key through-routes, the question should not be "should there be a bypass" but rather "how to ensure the bypass is not mis-used" and remains - to the greatest extent possible - an easy way to get from the rest of the country to Spiddal, towns on the N59 etc.
And I for one have given suggestions on how to do that - starting with concrete measures to turn the former stroads into streets. Repurpose traffic lanes into bus lanes to facilitate express public transport, lower speed limits etc to create a more pleasant atmosphere and capture value in the spaces, maybe accompanied by turning traffic lanes into on-street parking if it will help bring patronage to street-side shops. Preferably all of this should be accompanied by some better planning where people can still have houses, just not all over the place.
And this can work, because for all the bashing of the M50 it mostly does it's job, Dublin still has a very vibrant core with dense office development, shopping districts (often pedestrianised) etc in the city centre, and very well used (actually maxed out) public transport coming into the city from all the hinterlands. Dublin needs more public transport mainly, as do most of the cities to a lesser extent, long distance travel nationwide needs more motorways and bypasses. And yes, in cases where a city needs PT but is also an impediment to national/through traffic, it needs roads and public transport, both.0 -
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Which is something that has been disputed by precisely nobody. What is disputed is how that applies to people traveling long distances between remote places. The kind of stuff you need roads and cars for.Sam Russell wrote: »The image is to demonstrate the PT and cycling is very efficient use of road space.
As to the idea that better public transport should be done instead of a bypass, that's a way of thinking I'd be more partial to if there had actually been a bypass built in the first place. As in, with an unbroken median dual carriageway, end-to-end with only grade separated junctions at key road junctions, like the Athlone or Mullingar bypasses. Then it would be appropriate to ask why so much city traffic was on the bypass and what could be done to shift some of it off. But that didn't happen, someone decided back in the 80s I guess, to have a new bridge very close to the centre of a growing city, access to which would require one navigate a number of at-grade junctions and even a detour for East-West traffic up and down the Headford Road on a North-South axis. In short, the 4 lane section of N6 there was probably intended to be a stroad from Day 1, with little money around to fix things properly in the late 20th century they probably decided to try to solve two problems in one, on the cheap. Something that we've also seen in other places, like Carrick on Shannon.
Possible perhaps, but it's very easy when there is a section of road that long distance travelers unsuited to long distance travel and which they must share with local traffic. I just picked Oughterard and "somewere in Co. Roscommon" out of thin air. But you could just as well throw a dart at a map of Western Co. Galway, and another at any point in Ireland East of the Corrib River, and you would have the same problem. Anyone traveling between those two points has to travel through Galway City Stroads. It hurts everyone that this occurs because such users have no business in the city (and are thus slowed down immensely in their journey - even if they are doing it outside of peak hours) and should not be part of its traffic, nevertheless they must do so and contribute to the traffic problems of a city they'd rather not be in. It makes no sense at all.It is always possible to come up with examples of how a particular solution does not suit a particular situation.
Except in cities, where you cannot do this because if everyone tried to, the traffic would just break down altogether. That's why cities have public transport, and that's why I've called for more.Car is quicker in nearly all circumstances because you leave when you are ready, and generally you can travel as fast as a bus would if it took you from your start point to your end point.
Again, you're re-iterating a point that was disputed by 12 groups of nobody. What is being disputed is that problems with PT is the only aspect of this that needs attention. Do whatever you like with buses, bicycles, whatever you're having yourself, it makes no difference because long distance traffic will still be forced through city streets. If anything, if you reduce the motorist carrying capacity of the stroads to rebalance them towards local users on buses, bicycles etc without providing an alternative road for the long distance drivers, you just make things worse for the long distance user. It makes no sense at all.However, that does not work if buses are using a bus lane and you cannot and there is heavy congestion. If bus lanes were available for all trunk routes, and buses provided an adequate service, then only a fool would sit in a car stopped by congestion for a 50 min journey when the bus can do it in 20 mins.
Yes. Like virtually every single journey not involving the city but requiring a crossing of the Corrib.For a journey where bus is not an alternative, then obviously a car is necessary.
A large part of the problem with the Irish school run is the lack of centralised schools. In the United States, each municipality has a municipal school system and a place in it is guaranteed to any child resident in the municipality. They then follow that up with a local school bus system.However, a bike or walking is certainly an option for short a journey. For example, children should walk or cycle to school and not travel by armoured 4wd SUV children carriers for the 2 km journey to school.
Here in Ireland, there are a random smattering of schools here and there and there are no guarantees of a school place to anyone. You just apply everywhere and if you're lucky, there is a place somewhere for your kid, so they go to whichever school that happened to be, even it is 10 miles away past a bunch of other schools that were "full". So you end up with a completely dis-jointed, unplanned "school run" that tends more likely than it should to involve private cars. There's little use blaming the private motorist for that aspect of it. Structural reform of education would accomplish a lot more than telling people "you're the problem because you drive your child to some random school that just happened to accept your application".
The whole thing was a mistake, but there are good reasons it might have appeared to make sense at the time. The Quincentennial Bridge and presumably the stroads leading to it were built starting in 1984 when A) the country was broke andGalway made a huge mistake by building roundabouts on major routes that cause gridlock, and they are now removing. That surely is a reason to rethink the plans of such a local authority that has demonstrated at so many levels just how poor they are at road planning.
9 years before the National Roads Authority took some central control of road planning in 1993 (The NRA was subsumed into TII in 2015). Also, 1984 was more than 30 years ago.
First of all, even those looking to turn Galway into a mini Los Angeles are not trying to build something "for cars" because cars don't drive themselves for no reason.Why are there no buses crossing the Quincentenial Bridge? Maybe there is a question to ask before a new bridge for cars is built.
People use cars to get from place to place, thusly, a new bridge as you describe it would be for people using their cars. Not the cars themselves.
As to why the current QB does not have lots of buses, good question. Maybe most public transport users want to get into the city? Maybe there's a lot going on the city centre? Perhaps the workplaces near the current N6 are out-of-town corporate parks that are not pedestrian (thus public transport) friendly? Maybe it's because the people on the buses would get stuck in the same traffic as the people in the cars? And to fix that you'd have to take a massive gamble by putting bus lanes on the QB, which if the desired modal shift did not happen, would turn 2 hour commutes into 4 hour commutes? Or maybe the transport planners are lazy and missing an obvious trick? I don't know.
A better question is why some people want to continue forcing long distance traffic onto badly planned city stroads that everyone would be better off if they avoided?0 -
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Which is something that has been disputed by precisely nobody. What is disputed is how that applies to people traveling long distances between remote places. The kind of stuff you need roads and cars for.
As to the idea that better public transport should be done instead of a bypass, that's a way of thinking I'd be more partial to if there had actually been a bypass built in the first place. As in, with an unbroken median dual carriageway, end-to-end with only grade separated junctions at key road junctions, like the Athlone or Mullingar bypasses. Then it would be appropriate to ask why so much city traffic was on the bypass and what could be done to shift some of it off. But that didn't happen, someone decided back in the 80s I guess, to have a new bridge very close to the centre of a growing city, access to which would require one navigate a number of at-grade junctions and even a detour for East-West traffic up and down the Headford Road on a North-South axis. In short, the 4 lane section of N6 there was probably intended to be a stroad from Day 1, with little money around to fix things properly in the late 20th century they probably decided to try to solve two problems in one, on the cheap. Something that we've also seen in other places, like Carrick on Shannon.
Possible perhaps, but it's very easy when there is a section of road that long distance travelers unsuited to long distance travel and which they must share with local traffic. I just picked Oughterard and "somewere in Co. Roscommon" out of thin air. But you could just as well throw a dart at a map of Western Co. Galway, and another at any point in Ireland East of the Corrib River, and you would have the same problem. Anyone traveling between those two points has to travel through Galway City Stroads. It hurts everyone that this occurs because such users have no business in the city (and are thus slowed down immensely in their journey - even if they are doing it outside of peak hours) and should not be part of its traffic, nevertheless they must do so and contribute to the traffic problems of a city they'd rather not be in. It makes no sense at all.
Except in cities, where you cannot do this because if everyone tried to, the traffic would just break down altogether. That's why cities have public transport, and that's why I've called for more.
Again, you're re-iterating a point that was disputed by 12 groups of nobody. What is being disputed is that problems with PT is the only aspect of this that needs attention. Do whatever you like with buses, bicycles, whatever you're having yourself, it makes no difference because long distance traffic will still be forced through city streets. If anything, if you reduce the motorist carrying capacity of the stroads to rebalance them towards local users on buses, bicycles etc without providing an alternative road for the long distance drivers, you just make things worse for the long distance user. It makes no sense at all.
Yes. Like virtually every single journey not involving the city but requiring a crossing of the Corrib.
A large part of the problem with the Irish school run is the lack of centralised schools. In the United States, each municipality has a municipal school system and a place in it is guaranteed to any child resident in the municipality. They then follow that up with a local school bus system.
Here in Ireland, there are a random smattering of schools here and there and there are no guarantees of a school place to anyone. You just apply everywhere and if you're lucky, there is a place somewhere for your kid, so they go to whichever school that happened to be, even it is 10 miles away past a bunch of other schools that were "full". So you end up with a completely dis-jointed, unplanned "school run" that tends more likely than it should to involve private cars. There's little use blaming the private motorist for that aspect of it. Structural reform of education would accomplish a lot more than telling people "you're the problem because you drive your child to some random school that just happened to accept your application".
The whole thing was a mistake, but there are good reasons it might have appeared to make sense at the time. The Quincentennial Bridge and presumably the stroads leading to it were built starting in 1984 when A) the country was broke and 9 years before the National Roads Authority took some central control of road planning in 1993 (The NRA was subsumed into TII in 2015). Also, 1984 was more than 30 years ago.
First of all, even those looking to turn Galway into a mini Los Angeles are not trying to build something "for cars" because cars don't drive themselves for no reason.
People use cars to get from place to place, thusly, a new bridge as you describe it would be for people using their cars. Not the cars themselves.
As to why the current QB does not have lots of buses, good question. Maybe most public transport users want to get into the city? Maybe there's a lot going on the city centre? Perhaps the workplaces near the current N6 are out-of-town corporate parks that are not pedestrian (thus public transport) friendly? Maybe it's because the people on the buses would get stuck in the same traffic as the people in the cars? And to fix that you'd have to take a massive gamble by putting bus lanes on the QB, which if the desired modal shift did not happen, would turn 2 hour commutes into 4 hour commutes? Or maybe the transport planners are lazy and missing an obvious trick? I don't know.
A better question is why some people want to continue forcing long distance traffic onto badly planned city stroads that everyone would be better off if they avoided?
Just consider that the Bothar Na dTreabh was built, it was to be a bypass, fitted with a sequence of useful roudabouts given names of the twelve tribes of Galway. When they caused gridlock, they were (well some were) replaced with traffic light controlled junctions that caused gridlock.
Now, this is not just a Galway problem because when Limerick built a bypass, Childers Road, it was a single carriageway road with roundabouts and gridlock. It was what was the latest solution at the time - cheap low cost non-solutions.
Now Limerick has a good Motorway bypass that solves the problem. Unfortunately, it is a bit short as it should go all the way to Cork. Unfortunately, Galway got a Motorway bypass that was 20 km too far East of the city. Now having had a few goes at solving this, they are to build a new one too far West. If Bothar Na dTreadbh was made grade separated, with a new bridge across the Corrib, it could remove the problem.
If access to the west of the city was easy coming from the M17/M18, then the traffic would avoid Claregalway.
Public transport has to be offered in a realistic way if it is expected that the car drivers and their passengers will use it. It has to be provided in as a frequent, reliable, and low cost solution that matches the users requirement. Building more roads does none of these things.0
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