Galway Ring Road- are there better ways to solve traffic?

?Cee?view

McGiver wrote: »

Care to provide any factual counterarguments on my points instead running around and yelling "call the guards!"?

Is the ocean/sea/bay not a big "factual counterargument"?

hans aus dtschl

cgcsb wrote: »

What a lot f people don't actually get is that the bypass will actually harm the development of sustainable options, the utility of a motorway would be extremely attractive and PT wouldn't be able to compete in mode choice.

Yes but it's also important to note that some people will still need to drive across the city.
Some people will always need to drive the N40, the M50, the N6. And HGV's will not be disappearing any time soon. The problem is really that there currently are very many people driving these routes who shouldn't be, were sustainable transport options available to them.
It's a chicken and egg thing, because while sustainable transport usage is low, it's very hard to argue for spending on sustainable transport and not upgrading the road.

Again, I am not an expert on Galway. I just google that Knocknacarra to Ballybrit is around an 8km journey, but it's 15-40mins by car and 70% of people there are driving, so there's a problem. To cycle that at even a gentle pace should be a pretty reliable 30 mins.

cgcsb

?Cee?view wrote: »

Is the ocean/sea/bay not a big "factual counterargument"?

what is the bay an argument against really?

Sam Russell

cgcsb wrote: »

what is the bay an argument against really?

A ring road. You cannot build a ring road in Galway because of the Corrib and Galway Bay - it takes a big chunk from the concept of a 'ring'. Goegraphy is against it.

The M17 was built too far east to serve Galway City.

If there is adequate amount of PT and P&R in Galway, many of the car drivers will find it better to use those facilities, and reduce the demand for road space. That will ease the demand and reduce the grid lock.

Bus lanes allow the buses to travel faster than the general traffic and so would be preferred by commuters. If buses travel at 25% better average speed because of bus lanes, then there are effectively 25% more buses at no cost - win win win.

So first solve the bus problem.

marno21

Sam Russell wrote: »

A ring road. You cannot build a ring road in Galway because of the Corrib and Galway Bay - it takes a big chunk from the concept of a 'ring'. Goegraphy is against it.

The M17 was built too far east to serve Galway City.

If there is adequate amount of PT and P&R in Galway, many of the car drivers will find it better to use those facilities, and reduce the demand for road space. That will ease the demand and reduce the grid lock.

Bus lanes allow the buses to travel faster than the general traffic and so would be preferred by commuters. If buses travel at 25% better average speed because of bus lanes, then there are effectively 25% more buses at no cost - win win win.

So first solve the bus problem.

Ring roads in this context are to connect all the radial routes into a city that mean traffic can connect between the radial routes without having to enter the city or transit the city.

The N6 Galway City Ring Road connects the R336, N59, N84, N83 and the M6 so effectively

SeanW

cgcsb wrote: »

No I am in favor of removing road space from cars and giving it to people using more efficient modes so that more people can move as opposed to more cars. The GTS was last year I believe.

Yes, cut the traffic capacity of the existing N6 in half - without providing a bypass alternative - that should make it so much easier for those doing long distance East-West travel. :mad: Unbe****inglievable.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

Bus lanes allow the buses to travel faster than the general traffic and so would be preferred by commuters. If buses travel at 25% better average speed because of bus lanes, then there are effectively 25% more buses at no cost - win win win.

So first solve the bus problem.

BE already said they would happily increase the frequency of services and coverage of routes however until there is a sufficient amount of bus lanes there is no point.

It's a chicken and egg thing.

You can't build bus lanes because that would reduce capacity too much because there's too many cars.

Once the bypass is built you can go ahead and slash the capacity of the existing roads and I would be all for it

Sam Russell

Deleted User wrote: »

BE already said they would happily increase the frequency of services and coverage of routes however until there is a sufficient amount of bus lanes there is no point.

It's a chicken and egg thing.

You can't build bus lanes because that would reduce capacity too much because there's too many cars.

Once the bypass is built you can go ahead and slash the capacity of the existing roads and I would be all for it

One bus carries 70 passengers, while most cars carry only one person.

If necessary, they should introduce free fares for a period and see how full the buses get, and how empty the roads get. It would still need bus lanes though.

what_traffic

Deleted User wrote: »

You can't build bus lanes because that would reduce capacity too much because there's too many cars.

Agree to point - only 9% of Network has dedicated infrastructure, but
not convinced of this argument re no space for bus lanes to be added. Lots of places Bus Lanes could be build in the City presently. Length of the Western Distributor Road is an obvious one, was in City's Smarter Travel Submission years ago at a cost of €10,000,000
Scope on the Newcastle Road/N59 for bus lanes.
Ballybane has scope as well.
Also BUS Gates will have an impact on Salmon Weir Bridge, College Road & one of the roads in Mervue that run parallel to the Dublin Road perhaps?

Nothing really has been done re PT infrastructure in Galway in last 5 years expect bus schedules have increased frequency.
Last bus lane modification was the 15/20 METER reduction of Bus Lane outside the NEW Garda building opposite GMIT.

serfboard

what_traffic wrote: »

Last bus lane modification was the 15/20 METER reduction of Bus Lane outside the NEW Garda building opposite GMIT.

Yep, as someone said to me, that station build was a real FU to public transport. And what had they plenty room for at the back of the site? A car park. (I'm aware that Garda Vehicles need parking, but I'd guess that there won't be that many of them).

Just look on Google Maps how close to the road the building is ...

what_traffic

serfboard wrote: »

Yep, as someone said to me, that station build was a real FU to public transport.

Its not the only FU to public that I see in that satellite photo. Spot the no of proper pedestrian crossings at GMIT?

WillieMason

Ok since people on here keep saying a new road will result in worst traffic delays in the city surly all we need to do is start closing down roads in the city :pac:

Lord Glentoran

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Given there is a larger population working in the Ballybrit /Parkmore area than in most large towns in the country, it would be farcical in the extreme to not put a junction to cater for this area

Quite right. What use is a bypass unless it is to facilitate moar traffic?

markpb

WillieMason wrote: »

Ok since people on here keep saying a new road will result in worst traffic delays in the city surly all we need to do is start closing down roads in the city :pac:

I know you're joking but there have been plenty of cases worldwide where roads were closed or narrowed and traffic in the area decreased over time. People assume that the number of vehicle trips are fixed but they're not. If a road closes, people will use other routes or other methods of transport and, over time, won't make the trips at all.

Sam Russell

markpb wrote: »

I know you're joking but there have been plenty of cases worldwide where roads were closed or narrowed and traffic in the area decreased over time. People assume that the number of vehicle trips are fixed but they're not. If a road closes, people will use other routes or other methods of transport and, over time, won't make the trips at all.

I think there was a bridge in London over the Thames (Battersea, I think) that was closed for strengthening because it had become unsafe. It was closed for two years, but when the work was completed, it was decided to leave it closed because the traffic was not affected by the closure. I think it has been reopened since.

Traffic can evaporate when the route gets to congested. People take the bus, or walk. or cycle. It only takes a change in traffic volume of a few % or so to change a route from heavy but moving to total gridlock.

Climate change and carbon tax may well change demand for road building.

CatInABox

Here's a recent example of induced demand: LA spent $1.6 Billion adding an extra lane onto a highway, and increased journey times because more cars started using it. See here.

Here's the prime example of reduced demand: New York got rid of the West Side highway, and over half of the traffic disappeared. See here.

McGiver

hans aus dtschl wrote:

I personally would prefer Galway to get equivalent sustainable transport spend instead of the cost of the proposed road. Amsterdam Haarlem Barcelona Frankfurt are "hemmed in" if that's where your focus is. I don't think the topography is a strong argument either way in this discussion.

Spot on, the topology is a very weak argument. And I've already said several times - if needed build a bridge bypass in the bay.. Oranmore/Roscam to town, along the train bridge or even merge it with it. Such solutions do exist... And the bay is no harbor, no ships there really.

McGiver

Sam Russell wrote:

A ring road. You cannot build a ring road in Galway because of the Corrib and Galway Bay - it takes a big chunk from the concept of a 'ring'. Goegraphy is against it.

Technically you could - bridge the southern part using a bridge...

McGiver

Sam Russell wrote:

If necessary, they should introduce free fares for a period and see how full the buses get, and how empty the roads get. It would still need bus lanes though.

Not only bus lanes but also reasonable routes (radial etc). I'm seriously afraid that NTA and especially the council are not capable of the latter...

McGiver

what_traffic wrote:

Its not the only FU to public that I see in that satellite photo. Spot the no of proper pedestrian crossings at GMIT?

This is a big problem in the East. No pedestrian crossings or at wrong places. The whole place was designed for cars not for people. This is the core issue and will require almost a paradigm change.

Sam Russell

McGiver wrote: »

This is a big problem in the East. No pedestrian crossings or at wrong places. The whole place was designed for cars not for people. This is the core issue and will require almost a paradigm change.

Indeed. There was an argument put up by a Kerry TD who suggested that the ban for Drink Driving should not apply for rural people so they could socialise (go to the pub and back). I know of one young lady who lives 20 km out the road from Galway who had a learner permit, and no way of getting to work, so she drove unaccompanied half way and got a lift the rest of the way - never caught and no accident.

Car-centric infrastructure assumes all can drive which ignores the old, the young, and the blind. Buses are able to cope with all. Let us get PT right first before we sink another €1 billion into another attempt to fix Galway's traffic. I thought that Bothar Na dTreabh was to be the solution, including the twelve roundabouts that have since been removed.

Make the five junctions on Bothar Na dTreabh free flow and it will go a long way to solving the current problem, bu will probably allow sufficient extra cars to make the situation the same as now. Add bus lanes, and there might be some chance of progress.

what_traffic

WillieMason wrote: »

Ok since people on here keep saying a new road will result in worst traffic delays in the city surly all we need to do is start closing down roads in the city :pac:

Which ones? Just need to make the existing roads more efficient at peak times.
Closing down through car traffic on two roads in the next year or two. Salmon Weir and College Rd (near City Hall).
Will have interesting impact on Public transport and Cycling in around these areas. Places like University Road/Woodquay/Newtownsmith will see a large reduction in private Car movements.

what_traffic

McGiver wrote: »

This is a big problem in the East. No pedestrian crossings or at wrong places. The whole place was designed for cars not for people. This is the core issue and will require almost a paradigm change.

Very true. CSO stats back it up as well. Very poor walking and cycling stats on the East Side of the Corrib.
Its so bad in around GMIT, students are applying for car parking permits and they only live with 1km of it in Renmore. The multilane roundabout needs to go and proper signalized junction installed at the Ballyloughane junction.

Carol25

You can’t force people onto a substandard public transport system on substandard roads and practically non existent rail systems. How are the businesses and people of Galway supposed to function with even less road capacity and no properly developed infrastructure for public transport offered as an alternative? How is footfall to be affected? How is this a good idea in marketing Galway as a place to do business, live and work in the future?.
Are the tourists, people of the West Galway and the people of Connemara (which one poster here seems to deem non-existent) not entitled to a proper road and access to the City? Where do the cars/buses, etc, fit? Quincentennial Bridge is full to capacity.
I could go on but most people on here seem to have decided that for some illogical reason, Galway, who is a city crying out for more roads and infrastructure is the crux of climate change issues, global warming and evolving from cars. This is a very valid debate and I fully support people using more public transport initiatives where viable. However it is not a valid argument for the City in its current state.
I have seen reports of groups of children cycling to school in the mornings, supervised. This is a fantastic initiative, which would be even less dangerous for the children and adults involved if a ring road/bypass existed for most of the heavy traffic. Freeing up city roads for cycle and bus lanes.

what_traffic

Carol25 wrote: »

You can’t force people onto a substandard public transport system on substandard roads and practically non existent rail systems.

I have no idea as to why exactly you are quoting my post about the Galway City Council proposals for the Galway City Transportation Strategy?

https://connachttribune.ie/citys-bus-car-and-cycle-strategy-to-progress-in-the-autumn-600/

Your post should be a standalone post.
It has no relevance at all too what I posted.

Carol25

what_traffic wrote: »

I have no idea as to why exactly you are quoting my post about the Galway City Council proposals for the Galway City Transportation Strategy?

https://connachttribune.ie/citys-bus-car-and-cycle-strategy-to-progress-in-the-autumn-600/

Your post should be a standalone post.
It has no relevance at all too what I posted.

True, I have corrected that now ðŸ‘ðŸ».

Sam Russell

Carol25 wrote: »

You can’t force people onto a substandard public transport system on substandard roads and practically non existent rail systems.

There is no one forcing anyone onto public transport.

As for nonexistent roads, I think you should look back a bit at the last 50 years, say since Digital Corporation set up in Galway, at all of 'traffic improvements' in Galway. This is not an exhaustive list.

Shop street was made one way to facilitate traffic. Eyre Square was reworked to facilitate traffic. Anew road was built joining Prospect Hill with Foster St. along with more one ways to ease traffic. A few relief roads round the docks, and more one way schemes.

Quincentenial bridge was built. (but no provision for PT.) This was to ease traffic crossing the Corrib.

There were several 'improvements' to the Tuam Road, with the addition and then subtraction of a few roundabouts.

The roundabout off the QCB was built and adjusted a few times. Again no attention to the needs of cyclist or PT.

Botha Na dTreabh was built and a few roundabouts were put in to ease traffic. They were then taken out to ease traffic.

The M6 was built to ease traffic, ending in the Coolagh Roundabout - the scene of many traffic queues at busy time, and even gets its own slot on AA Roadwatch every morning.

The M17 and M18 were built to provide easy access for traffic from Tuam into Galway avoiding that traffic block, Claregalway, and the M18 would have all towns south to Gort or even Ennis to quickly access Galway. However, we now know, most traffic goes the old way.

So, now Galway needs a new road to solve all its problems the Outer Ring Road.

It is time to try the bus option. Maybe if it was a shiny new Luas costing a few hundred million euros it might get popular support. Well, Dublin has two Luas lines, so it would be only right if Galway got at least one.

One full bus carries more than 50 cars. A lot of buses can be bought and run for 20 years for €600 million.

Carol25

Carol25 wrote: »

You can’t force people onto a substandard public transport system on substandard roads and practically non existent rail systems.

You don't need to force anyone to do anything, but mass transit can be the most attractive option by having a high frequency timetable and reliable journey times. This comes with bus lanes

Carol25 wrote: »

How are the businesses and people of Galway supposed to function with even less road capacity and no properly developed infrastructure for public transport offered as an alternative? How is footfall to be affected? How is this a good idea in marketing Galway as a place to do business, live and work in the future?.

The biggest barrier to Galways growth is its roads which have reached capacity for private cars. Only way to increase capacity further is through modal shifts to sustainable transport (bikes, walking, buses etc)

Carol25 wrote: »

Are the tourists, people of the West Galway and the people of Connemara (which one poster here seems to deem non-existent) not entitled to a proper road and access to the City? Where do the cars/buses, etc, fit? Quincentennial Bridge is full to capacity.

You are making the same mistake a lot of folks who like to rant and rave make. You are assuming that there will be no more access, ever again. Access will be there for those who need it but driving a single occupancy car into Galway should be a poor option resulting in poor journey times and high costs. Can be avoided by provision of rapid service park and rides

Carol25 wrote: »

I could go on but most people on here seem to have decided that for some illogical reason, Galway, who is a city crying out for more roads and infrastructure is the crux of climate change issues, global warming and evolving from cars. This is a very valid debate and I fully support people using more public transport initiatives where viable. However it is not a valid argument for the City in its current state.

That's not what is being said.

Carol25 wrote: »

I have seen reports of groups of children cycling to school in the mornings, supervised. This is a fantastic initiative, which would be even less dangerous for the children and adults involved if a ring road/bypass existed for most of the heavy traffic. Freeing up city roads for cycle and bus lanes.

Why do we need a bypass to allow kids to cycle on the streets of Galway?

Now, take all of what I said and add that I'm a bypass supporter.

Carol25

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You don't need to force anyone to do anything, but mass transit can be the most attractive option by having a high frequency timetable and reliable journey times. This comes with bus lanes



The biggest barrier to Galways growth is its roads which have reached capacity for private cars. Only way to increase capacity further is through modal shifts to sustainable transport (bikes, walking, buses etc)




You are making the same mistake a lot of folks who like to rant and rave make. You are assuming that there will be no more access, ever again. Access will be there for those who need it but driving a single occupancy car into Galway should be a poor option resulting in poor journey times and high costs. Can be avoided by provision of rapid service park and rides



That's not what is being said.



Why do we need a bypass to allow kids to cycle on the streets of Galway?

Now, take all of what I said and add that I'm a bypass supporter.

If you’re a ‘bypass supporter’, how on Earth do you not understand the point I was making re children cycling to school on an overloaded Galway West road full of cars, HGV’s, buses, etc., versus cycling on a similar road in the future with designated safe bike lanes for such children and adults?

Not sure what points you’re making re public transport besides as I’m not opposed to public transport initiatives and have stated that previously on more than one occasion. I fully support better public transport options and use it myself wherever possible as I hate the stress of trying to get somewhere in traffic as most people do. Anytime I do take the train, or bus, I notice how full they are. People use public transport and would much more regularly if the proper services were there. I might also add it’s extremely pricey for myself and my children and needs to be cheaper to be sustainable.
The infrastructure to provide proper services currently isn’t there.

Carol25

Sam Russell wrote: »

There is no one forcing anyone onto public transport.

As for nonexistent roads, I think you should look back a bit at the last 50 years, say since Digital Corporation set up in Galway, at all of 'traffic improvements' in Galway. This is not an exhaustive list.

Shop street was made one way to facilitate traffic. Eyre Square was reworked to facilitate traffic. Anew road was built joining Prospect Hill with Foster St. along with more one ways to ease traffic. A few relief roads round the docks, and more one way schemes.

Quincentenial bridge was built. (but no provision for PT.) This was to ease traffic crossing the Corrib.

There were several 'improvements' to the Tuam Road, with the addition and then subtraction of a few roundabouts.

The roundabout off the QCB was built and adjusted a few times. Again no attention to the needs of cyclist or PT.

Botha Na dTreabh was built and a few roundabouts were put in to ease traffic. They were then taken out to ease traffic.

The M6 was built to ease traffic, ending in the Coolagh Roundabout - the scene of many traffic queues at busy time, and even gets its own slot on AA Roadwatch every morning.

The M17 and M18 were built to provide easy access for traffic from Tuam into Galway avoiding that traffic block, Claregalway, and the M18 would have all towns south to Gort or even Ennis to quickly access Galway. However, we now know, most traffic goes the old way.

So, now Galway needs a new road to solve all its problems the Outer Ring Road.

It is time to try the bus option. Maybe if it was a shiny new Luas costing a few hundred million euros it might get popular support. Well, Dublin has two Luas lines, so it would be only right if Galway got at least one.

One full bus carries more than 50 cars. A lot of buses can be bought and run for 20 years for €600 million.

I agree that planning is very poor, roads and developments were not built correctly, no provisions for the future included, and generally no thought beyond cutting a ribbon and getting a picture in the paper for opening new roads, etc.
However I also see how other cities operate, and how they plan and do a proper job initially when it comes to their infrastructure. It’s not just one or the other. Cars or public transport, it’s both catered for. It’s time to plan ahead for once, put in a proper road and develop public transport initiatives on foot of that. If the outer ring road was built, hopefully more areas of the city centre could be developed as car free zones, with designated bus and cycle lanes.