Galway Ring Road- are there better ways to solve traffic?

what_traffic

serfboard wrote: »

The city-based Green poltician is more pragmatic - acknowledging that her party policy is no more roads, but recognising that opposing the bypass RING ROAD in Galway is political suicide.

You could state her policy as: "No more roads - after this one!".

Pragmatic? Perhaps.
Its the exact same opinion of the N6 Galway City Project Lead, Eileen McCarty of ARUP.
Who also acknowledges that the Ring Road will not solve Galways Car Traffic Problems.

What the ARUP associate director said was "we can't keep building roads ... and we're just not going to get permission for another bridge, and another bridge and another bridge, because we keep insisting on driving everywhere."

This was said on the Keith Finnegan Radio Show on Galway Bay FM - Friday May 8th 2015

cgcsb

serfboard wrote: »

Add to that the number of legal actions which will be taken by those whose houses are scheduled for CPO/demolition, and I think we could be talking about a decade - if ever.

Meanwhile there seems to be no movement on the items which might improve traffic flow (getting rid of the roundabouts at Menlo and the hospital), the Tuam Road bus lane project seems dead and there is absolutely nothing being said about the provision of Park n' Rides on the city's outskirts, as well as the Bus Connects project being put on the long finger.

The traffic misery in Galway seems set to continue ...

I believe this to be political bumbling, Irish TDs and councillors are trained from birth to want 'de Bypass' absolutely irrespective of the specific implications. In order for the public to get behind it in this case, traffic needs to be bad. If we were to remove the traffic problem with proper planning and sustainable transport the bypass dies and the raison d'etre of the TD is gone.

However something different is happening this time, the recent 'green wave' means that the political class is begining to question what the public want. I do believe we'll see Bus Connects for Galway by the end of year.

markpb

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Because the bypass would take cars out of city centre, freeing up Central roads to be dug up for bus and cycling lanes. Doing the digging without the bypass would lead to greater deadlock.

Can you point to any urban road project which has resulted in overall less traffic? It won't happen. People who find the bypass/ring-road useful will move to that and other people will look at the less-used city roads and start driving there. The overall result will be more traffic and no improvement to the city centre. I supposed you could plan for having the new cycle lanes and bus lanes (and buses and drivers) ready to go on the day the bypass opens but that assumes not doing any infrastructure work because, of course, there's no space until the bypass opens and there's no plan for that anyway. Always mañana tomorrow for public transport projects.

cgcsb

SeanW wrote: »

One has to wonder why a sane person from Connemara would oppose the bypass. Do they like having to spend ages meandering through Galway city streets to get to/from just about anywhere else in the country?

Maybe they have children? They probably don't want their kids to see the human food chain collapse and force them to fight wars over the remaining scarce resources, or force them to move to high ground to survive, or to drink polluted water or eat plastic. Actions have ripples into the future. So on a micro level they have a choice:

-Support the bypass because it means, for a few short years, speedier access to somewhere else, adding thousands of more vehicular trips through induced demand, increasing emissions, worsening congestion and hastening our extinction.

-Take a small step and say no, and fight for a more sustainable way to move people around, because you are not an arrogant consumerist western-world baby boomer and you care about the sort of life the next generation can have.

cgcsb

McGiver wrote: »

This had already happened elsewhere in Europe decade(s) ago. Just that Ireland is roughly 25 years behind and West of Ireland possibly even more. Combine that with low population density, extremely low in the county, low even in the "City", as well as generally rural mindset ("we don't need them trams and buses") and what you see is the result. There is no quick fix possible.

Galway City is catching up in development but public transport, pedestrianisation, cycling infrastructure, livability are not improving much and the mindset issue is probably a bigger obstacle than anything else, because it influences local politics and hence prioritisation and in the end the actual development of the city.

I agree the problem is cultural, but stretches back much longer than 25 years. :pac:

Ireland didn't have an industrial revolution, the British wanted Britain to be the industrial power house and to keep Ireland as an agricultural colony that could offer it's masses cheap food. Ironically the new independent state continued this policy, big industrial cities were 'Too English' so we attempted to buck global trends with policies like rural electrification, tarmacing every road in the state rather than improving main routes, ignoring the needs of the cities and remaining agricultural. It's a failed policy though and I think the first person to counter it was Charles Haughey (corrupt as he was).

The culture is changing but it takes generations. Even most Dubliners are hardly 1 generation from the farm, so Galway will be even further behind again. We're bizzarly STILL trying to counter urbanisation with the ridiculous NBP, but the lack of popularity seems to indicate change is afoot, however slow.

cgcsb

what_traffic wrote: »

Pragmatic? Perhaps.
Its the exact same opinion of the N6 Galway City Project Lead, Eileen McCarty of ARUP.
Who also acknowledges that the Ring Road will not solve Galways Car Traffic Problems.

What the ARUP associate director said was "we can't keep building roads ... and we're just not going to get permission for another bridge, and another bridge and another bridge, because we keep insisting on driving everywhere."

This was said on the Keith Finnegan Radio Show on Galway Bay FM - Friday May 8th 2015

The consultants, ARUP, and their sub consultants, Jacobs and Systra, don't believe in the bypass and they've gotten themselves into a situation where they have to justify something they don't believe in and know won't work. The politicians pay them to come up with a particular result though, so they'll write a long list of self-contradicting 'assumptions' to build into modelling scenarios. The consultants are being offered the opportunity by ABP to write rebuttals to the submitted objections, a task that falls to the employees who have fallen out of favour with the boss.

hans aus dtschl

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

There is a direct correlation between overpopulation and climate change, why are you still here?

Wait, is this the Bertie Ahern riposte?
I, for one, hope not...

cgcsb

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Because the bypass would take cars out of city centre, freeing up Central roads to be dug up for bus and cycling lanes.

Doing the digging without the bypass would lead to greater deadlock.

bus lanes are generally just painted on, not 'dug up'

cgcsb

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

You can save the planet by having less children and/or checking yourself out. I don't see Greens wanting to be the ones to show the way.

There are lots of ways to save the plannet, most people go for the easier ones, going zero waste, reducing meat consumption, living in apartments, not driving a car etc.

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Bypass would help save planet, as it would lead to more prosperity for people of Galway, richer people then in turn have the luxury to save the planet. Also it would take chunk of traffic from current streets allowing for public transport and cycling routes to be build, further saving the planet.

This actually sounds like one of Arup's half hearted rebuttals only less convincing. The author doesn't believe it, because it isn't believable.

A bypass isn't going to make you richer :pac:. Saving the plannet isn't a luxury, it's just that baby-boomer consumerist mantra has created a culture where it's a luxury, gratuitous consumption comes first. There is nothing stopping the current roads being converted to bus and cycle lanes right now.

cgcsb

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Taking traffic that doesn't need to go anywhere near city centre out (bypassing Galway) frees up the city to dig up the roads for whatever fantastical schemes are currently in fashion up to and including pedestrianisation.

Simplez and logical.

Modelling shows only a tiny % of the traffic is long distance. Vast majority of trips start/finish in the urban area. We've been over this many times.

hans aus dtschl

I accept that plenty people are in favour of both the ring road AND bus priority, but for those who don't want to try bus priority first ("we want the ring road first") if traffic is already terrible (and I think many accept that it is) what have you got to lose? Why not try temporary restrictions during the lowest-congestion months when the schools are off?

markpb

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Taking traffic that doesn't need to go anywhere near city centre out (bypassing Galway) frees up the city to dig up the roads for whatever fantastical schemes are currently in fashion up to and including pedestrianisation.

So I assume you can't point me in the direction of an ubran road project that reduced traffic volumes then?

hans aus dtschl

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Amsterdam has a bypass

Funnily enough it's notorious for traffic jams and when it was built it was soon accompanied by a grassroots campaign to stop prioritising cars in Amsterdam called "Stop de Kindermoord".

Not sure if this is a good one to reference.

hans aus dtschl

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

We want same thing. Save the planet. Your eco-fascist approach is wrong, we need better infrastructure AND public transport, one facilitates the other.

Ireland has a much higher level of personal car usage than most (all) of our peer group.
I'd say we're doing particularly badly on sustainable transport modes of all kinds. I don't think it's really fair to say someone has an <snip> approach for saying that we need to prioritise sustainable transport above roads.

I think it might be actually the stated department of transport and NTA position.

hans aus dtschl

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Yet it has taken traffic out of city centre leaving room for pedestrianisation and better public transport (trams, subway, buses)

Yeah, that or the oil crisis and a massive grassroots campaign. They had been demolishing parts of the city to make way for roads up to that point. But sure the A10 is probably what got people onto sustainable transport. Not that it ever gets its due credit for it, eh?

hans aus dtschl

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Build the bypass, pedestrianise 3 medieval bridges in city centre, that would literally reduce traffic in city forcing the use by cars of two modern bridge crossings.

I'll presume you don't actually mean pedestrianise. I'll take that as a given.
What day do you want to close it? The day the ring road opens?

cgcsb

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Amsterdam has a bypass it allows city centre to be pedestrianised and good public transport put in place. In fact every major Dutch city is bypassed allowing traffic traverse country in any direction without entering city centres.

A completely false comparison, Galway City is on the edge of Ireland, west of it is sparsely populated Conemara, and then nothing until you get to Newfoundland. The bypass connects the rest of Ireland to nowhere essentially, The Netherlands has 20 million people in an area the size of Munster. You can't compare Galway to Amsterdam, if you are going to make a Dutch comparison, try Leeuwarden, 122,000 people, not really on the way to anywhere. It has an inner reliefe road with signal junctions, sort of like Galway's set up. Bike and bus are king in Leeuwarden.

hans aus dtschl

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Ireland has a highly distributed population for historical reasons, funnily enough lack of infrastructure and housing around Galway is making this problem worse as people are forced to move into surrounding county.

Once again this totalitarian either or strawman is leading to more problems.

I don't have a totalitarian either or strawman. I'll advocate for roads too where they're needed. The Galway Ring Road could well be needed for all I know. As I've said from the start, I don't live in the area, I'm not personally affected, and I don't have the numbers.

I'm simply curious about why it has to happen before anything else can even be attempted.

I have walked to town from the Coolough Road a good few times (walking past traffic jams) and been struck by how wide the Headford Road is, and how little effort has been made to make sustainable transport enticing on that particular corridor. Or a P&R on that corridor. And there so much parking on that corridor too, I was quite impressed by the wastefulness of it.

hans aus dtschl

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Yes without the A10 there would have been nowhere for cars /trucks to go hence no possibility to build the excellent public transport and pedestrian infrastructure.

Even though the cars and trucks were in a traffic jam???
Again, I don't think the A10 is a good choice here. Of all cities to choose, not the A10.

hans aus dtschl

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Sure why not.

OK, and what will use the road on that day? Bicycles? Buses?

Bear in mind at this theoretical date, an expanded bus fleet hasn't been bought and the bike lanes aren't laid down...alternative traffic flows for all adjoining roads and neighbourhoods haven't been laid out...what's the plan? Just close the bridges and wing it?

Or is some kind of sustainable transport plan needed? Is something specific else needed, to encourage people to leave the car at home?

hans aus dtschl

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

It must be imaginary traffic and people not going anywhere every day.

It's mostly people doing 5km journeys, according to the stats.

Just like here in Cork btw.

BelfastVanMan

So, I suppose we should also just close the N59, as apparantly no-one goes or lives up that direction?

Jesus wept....

BelfastVanMan

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

cgcsb wrote: »

A completely false comparison, Galway City is on the edge of Ireland, west of it is sparsely populated Conemara, and then nothing until you get to Newfoundland. The bypass connects the rest of Ireland to nowhere essentially, The Netherlands has 20 million people in an area the size of Munster. You can't compare Galway to Amsterdam, if you are going to make a Dutch comparison, try Leeuwarden, 122,000 people, not really on the way to anywhere. It has an inner reliefe road with signal junctions, sort of like Galway's set up. Bike and bus are king in Leeuwarden.

It must be imaginary traffic and people not going anywhere every day.

He must be sponsored by Dawes Bicycles, this boy....

cgcsb

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

It must be imaginary traffic and people not going anywhere every day.

Nope, short commuter trips within the urban area that should be mostly replaced by bus and bike trips

cgcsb

BelfastVanMan wrote: »

So, I suppose we should also just close the N59, as apparantly no-one goes or lives up that direction?

Jesus wept....

Actually curious who you are responding to here? who claimed that?

hans aus dtschl

BelfastVanMan wrote: »

So, I suppose we should also just close the N59, as apparantly no-one goes or lives up that direction?

Jesus wept....

Not sure if you're asking me, but I've no idea about closing roads. That's not on my agenda at all.

I'm only baffled at why Galway's Council (just like Cork's Councils) don't put more effort into sustainable transport corridors now. That's my only agenda tbh. It's always a case of "after the next project...." and "after the cars are flowing smoothly". It's a plan to fail, really, there's zero chance of modal shift.

cgcsb

BelfastVanMan wrote: »

He must be sponsored by Dawes Bicycles, this boy....

You must be sponsored by an oil conglomerate. You see how leveling accusations at each other is non-productive.

cgcsb

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

You obviously never cycled or took a bus in Galway

Yes and both are crap and need to be improved. Half the bypass money, 300mil would make Galway a sustainable transport Mecca.

hans aus dtschl

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Sure make a plan for whenever bypass is built for whatever greenwash makes you feel best about yourself while typing on a computer made from rare elements from all over world.

I've always only addressed your points/arguments.
I have no interest in getting into a slagging match of some kind.

Either you have a counter-argument or you don't.

Again, my agenda is quite simple: I believe that a/the sustainable transport plan for Galway should be acted upon right now, without waiting for a Ring Road start date.
Even just ATTEMPTING things during the low-congestion periods. I'm not in favour of greenwashing to feel good about myself.

cgcsb

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Why do you keep framing this as one vs other choice? We can have both and eventually will.

Because, with good sustainable transport, the massive expenditure on the road is a waste of resources, better spent on sustainable transport elsewhere, it's counter productive to sustainable development and will ultimately worsen traffic in other locations.

Also because I know and you know that if the road goes ahead, that'll be all folks for any improvement in public transport for decades until the new bypass gets full and pressure for a new bypass starts to build. It has to end somewhere.

cgcsb

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Like that time greens aided fianna fail with 60+ billion aid to banks?

What is the actual point of this post?

hans aus dtschl

cgcsb wrote: »

It has to end somewhere.

Or start somewhere, as it were.

The reason Dublin's getting such high numbers using sustainable modes now is because of the total failure of cars. The ring road didn't solve traffic. It didn't work. It doesn't work.

In Cork it's exactly the same.

Regarding Galway I don't have a horse in this race: I don't live there. But I also don't believe that the Ring Road is the solution to the traffic issues. It might be a part of the solution, but not all on its own, from what I can see. And though the ring road will need completion to see gains (full expenditure) a sustainable transport plan can be realised incrementally piecemeal.

hans aus dtschl

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Sure why not, can you guarantee that it can be done in 3 quiet summer months?

Yes I think so. Not an entire plan by any means, obviously, but certainly first phases. Ideally enough to analyse any bottlenecks before any following phases.

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Aside the fact that there is corellation between schools and traffic shows a need for school buses first.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here.
I think school buses are only subsidised for journeys over a set distance. I don't think school buses are useful (maybe not even used?) for short distances. The schools traffic you'd ideally convert would be those dropping children distances of less than 1-2km. Temporary drop-off exclusion zones MIGHT be a solution to this, that could be tried one day a week even right away. Again, not sure if I'm addressing your point here.

cgcsb

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Environmentalists going on about waste of resources when they are responsible for sadling me and my children with debt for decades to come.

Hypocrite

The Green party aren't environmentalists, they are politicians :pac:

Your post has nothing to do with this topic though.

cgcsb

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

You literally proclaimed that there is nothing more important than saving the planet farther up on thread,

Which has nothing got to do with the Ireland Green party of the bank bailout :pac:

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

which I actually agree with.

lol, right, we'll start saving the plannet after this motorway, right?

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

However blind ideology won't get you there nor will living in a cave. Pragmatism and realism will. Galway needs a bypass, building one will help towards accomplishing your goal of public transport etc.

Nobody really believes that.

Ruhanna

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Galway needs a bypass, building one will help towards accomplishing your goal of public transport etc.

Firstly, it's not a "bypass". It's a new ring road for car commuters, as described by the engineers running the project (Arup). Only a small fraction of car traffic in Galway is bypassing the city entirely. The vast majority of traffic originating in both the city and the county is heading into Galway City, not away from it.

Secondly, it will not "accomplish the goal of public transport". That is a meaningless statement. Nowhere in the plans (as opposed to the promotional materials) are there targets for modal switch to public transport (or cycling or walking).

The purpose of the proposed road is to make car commuting across the city easier. Anyone who believes that building a motorway designed to make driving easier will prompt thousands of commuters to leave their cars and take the bus instead is either deluded or a liar. It's like claiming that installing a new speedy lift in your multi-storey office block will suddenly make the resident workers very keen on taking the stairs, when they never bothered to do so before. Pull the other one.

Ruhanna

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Why do you keep framing this as one vs other choice? We can have both and eventually will.

We can't and we won't.

Build a cross-town motorway and you can kiss goodbye to any hope of modal switch for another generation.

That's not speculation either. It's in the plan. If you can find any actual targets or projections (not aspirations) for modal switch from car commuting to public transport, post them here.

xckjoo

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Sure why not, can you guarantee that it can be done in 3 quiet summer months? Aside the fact that there is corellation between schools and traffic shows a need for school buses first.

Can you guarantee that a new road would fix the traffic issues in Galway? The experts can't. Can't even say it's likely to.

School buses are a good idea, but there's little point before we have proper bus lanes.

cgcsb

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

And we can't have proper bus lanes without either taking cars out of city or more extremely knocking down whole rows of buildings bordering narrow streets.
To accomplish one goal the other is needed as prerequisite.

Not true though, 4 or 5 good quality bus corridors would mean reduced space for cars, not a blanket ban.

Ruhanna

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

And we can't have proper bus lanes without either taking cars out of city or more extremely knocking down whole rows of buildings bordering narrow streets.
To accomplish one goal the other is needed as prerequisite.

It's not. There is no logic or sense to this proposition.

Taking "cars" out of the city is not an abstract concept. Cars have drivers. Some cars (a minority) even have passengers.

Take the cars out and you also take out potential bus passengers.

If commuters can drive across the city in less than ten minutes, who will take the buses?

Are you seriously expecting us to believe that a cross-town motorway will achieve two things simultaneously: (1) make car commuting easier, and (2) make public transport work better so that the people who are now commuting more easily by car will suddenly find that taking the bus is even more attractive than using the motorway that was built to make driving easier?

Like, seriously???

cgcsb

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

It is quite disingenuous to point at cost of this, most of the cost is due to trying to be good to the environment.

:pac: right, ya, so the projected increase in car use as a direct result of this road being in place is good for the environment?

xckjoo

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

It is quite disingenuous to point at cost of this, most of the cost is due to trying to be good to the environment. I am sure let's say Chinese could build this for a 10th of price but that would suck for environment and people of Galway.

Pointless statement. If we shot half the population we wouldn't have any traffic issues. Do you want to volunteer to go first?

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

If you actually lived and worked in Galway then you wouldn't be asking such silly questions

I work and live in Galway and take the bus or cycle to work daily. Never take the car for the commute. BUT my route is probably the best served bus route in the city so never have more than about 15mins to wait for the bus and it's only marginally slower than driving. If there was more bus lanes it would be faster than driving and be even more attractive.

Ashleigh1986

You can put bus lanes in galway city.
You could put one on Lough atalia going all the way from traffic lights at bottom of college road and up galmont hotel hill.
You could put one college road outbound.
You could put one inbound bohermore.
You could put one outbound from courthouse to tesco lights .
But to do this you would have to make these roads one way.
Please let nobody respond by saying it would mean drivers would have to be driving longer distances around galway .
Give me that than this nonsense stuck in traffic and not moving and the stress that causes .

cgcsb

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Reduced space would mean a blanket ban in reality,

No it wouldn't

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

especially since there is still no cross city routes nor Park and ride at strategic locations connected to buses.

If we're going to invest in the bus network, logically P and R and a re-organisation of the routes is on the cards. That's like not buying a house because the tables and chairs are in a less than ideal location. Changing bus routes around can be achieved for almost no costs, the bypass will cost €600m and worsen traffic in the long term.

xckjoo

Ashleigh1986 wrote: »

Give me that than this nonsense stuck in traffic and not moving and the stress that causes .

It does do weird things to your head. Used to arrive home far more stressed before I gave up on driving to work. I'm just lucky enough to have the option.

Ashleigh1986

Xckjoo..... Thank god us locals know some roads that you can take to try and get around some of the traffic.
But the first time visitors to galway are signposted a certain way to get into our city and from there to salthill.

This city quickly needs to get its finger out and it's going to take out of the box thinking to get it sorted.
Galway can't wait 8 to 10 years for a ring road.

what_traffic

Ashleigh1986 wrote: »

Galway can't wait 8 to 10 years for a ring road.

Exactly.
What have City Council done in the last 5 years since this Ring Road was first mooted?
Galway Transportation Study has been around since 2015 - practically nothing done with that yet.

markpb

markpb wrote: »

So I assume you can't point me in the direction of an ubran road project that reduced traffic volumes then?

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Taking traffic that doesn't need to go anywhere near city centre out (bypassing Galway) frees up the city to dig up the roads for whatever fantastical schemes are currently in fashion up to and including pedestrianisation.

Is that a no?

cgcsb

markpb wrote: »

Is that a no?

You'll only get a, look over there, response. Mine was; 'but the greens backed the bank bailout'.

Sam Russell

Grafton St in Dublin used to have two way traffic, which then went one way and then no way, just pedestrians and buskers. How did they manage that? Magic. Part of Dawson St is buses and trams only. More magic.

Just put in bus lanes and cycle lanes into Galway and restrict the cars, and at least the buses will move. Mind you, it needs decent planning, and new bus routes that provide services people will use.

The ring road is a decade away.