Rent costs breaking records

Assetbacked

BattleCorp wrote: »

I can't criticise NAMA (The Government) on this sale. NAMA are tasked with selling distressed assets for as much money as possible to save the State (us taxpayers and non taxpayers) money. More money was offered by a company who wants to develop offices on the site.

What were the Government supposed to do - flog it to a private house/apartment developer at a cheaper price? Imagine the outrage if the public found out about that deal?

And besides, it would be far far cheaper to build houses/apartments outside of the city centre than at the Apollo house site.

Sorry, I'm on the Government's side when it comes to this deal.

The economy rebounding is not because of NAMA's loan sales. Companies have expanded and unemployment has been reduced as an aside to NAMA. The government has not been able to handle the reduction in unemployment and the influx of workers by ensuring the resources of Dublin could handle it (transport, housing, health etc.). By using the NAMA sites to develop housing, the government could ensure apartments get built instead of flogging them to institutionals to hoover the money from the economy.

As a result, we have entered another housing market bubble, this time with rent. It is different to 2007 but no less of a worry. The government essentially has lead us to the cliff edge and we need a nuclear button to rescue ourselves from utter chaos.

What I mean by chaos is one of a social destruction whereby people live in insecurity of tenure in their rental dwellings, paying more and more of their salaries in rent which leaves less money to save for the future in turn leading to people spending less in the local economy. The fear and uncertainty created from living pay cheque to pay cheque results in an unhealthy morale in society. This is when populism starts to rise and we end up with all sorts of loopers in government - things like Trump, Brexit, Hungary, Netherlands, Austria etc start to happen in Ireland and to be honest, I understand why these things happen. The pressure on people and fear and uncertainty leads to these sort of decisions in the polls as people can't take it anymore.

What we need now is leadership in the government, signs and communications that they are acknowledging the rental crisis and genuinely want to make it better. All we are getting is spin on unemployment being reduced, companies expanding, the economy being stronger etc. and the only acknowledgement of a housing crisis is in respect of the "homeless" crisis. Minister Murphy is utterly useless and ineffective, not just for the role he has been assigned, but in his communication to the people.

Captain Obvious

There are towns and villages across the country crying out for people to fill them. Rents as low as €400 a month. If you aren't in employment you should be put wherever there is space.

Graces7

Captain Obvious wrote: »

There are towns and villages across the country crying out for people to fill them. Rents as low as €400 a month. If you aren't in employment you should be put wherever there is space.

to rusticate in low low emplyment areas? These places are empty for good reason..

Assetbacked

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

People on here seem to forget the tax take on rental income is massive. Ya think the government is going to shoot the golden goose.

The largest landlord in the State pays zero tax on its rental income - this applies to all of the REITs as landlords.

Grayson

Sweet.Science wrote: »

It really is crazy whats going to happen . People who have worked all their lives with nowhere to live at retirement age while people who have never worked do.

It's not them Vs us. This affects everyone. Blaming people on housing lists is just wrong. It's not their fault houses are unavailable.

Sweet.Science

Graces7 wrote: »

to rusticate in low low emplyment areas? These places are empty for good reason..

It frees up space in working areas for people who want to work

Grayson

Captain Obvious wrote: »

There are towns and villages across the country crying out for people to fill them. Rents as low as €400 a month. If you aren't in employment you should be put wherever there is space.

So you end up with areas where there's no jobs and more people without jobs moving to them.

Captain Obvious

Graces7 wrote: »

to rusticate in low low emplyment areas? These places are empty for good reason..

It's hard to listen to people say there is a housing crisis when it's really an issue of people not getting a house where they want for no reason other than they like the area. If you are crying out for a house and one is offered to you in a rural area but you refuse it there should be no other offers and no emergency housing. The house is there for you. Yeah you won't be able to hop on the bus into the smoke in 10 minutes but that's just a small sacrifice. And what does it matter if they are low employment areas if the person is long term unemployed?

Captain Obvious

Grayson wrote: »

So you end up with areas where there's no jobs and more people without jobs moving to them.

Yes.

Sweet.Science

Captain Obvious wrote: »

It's hard to listen to people say there is a housing crisis when it's really an issue of people not getting a house where they want for no reason other than they like the area. If you are crying out for a house and one is offered to you in a rural area but you refuse it there should be no other offers and no emergency housing. The house is there for you. Yeah you won't be able to hop on the bus into the smoke in 10 minutes but that's just a small sacrifice. And what does it matter if they are low employment areas if the person is long term unemployed?

Its a crisis for the working person . Its an entitlement crisis for the non working person . Imagine putting your family in a hotel or a hub instead of an apartment or a house outside of Dublin/Cork etc

amcalester

Grayson wrote: »

So you end up with areas where there's no jobs and more people without jobs moving to them.

Makes more sense that moving the people with jobs to where there are none so the people with no jobs can stay where the jobs are.

3DataModem

Assetbacked wrote: »

The largest landlord in the State pays zero tax on its rental income - this applies to all of the REITs as landlords.

I'd add that it seems to be the case that the government pays far more in rent than it takes in tax on rent.

Grayson

amcalester wrote: »

Makes more sense that moving the people with jobs to where there are none so the people with no jobs can stay where the jobs are.

Why is the only option moving people?

LirW

Grayson wrote: »

Why is the only option moving people?

Because sustainable building isn't happening, every garden shed gets objected and the land that's freed up for building will turn into another development of semi-Ds instead of going up, partly because people have no imagination that you can raise a family in well-built (!) Apartments, partly because builders don't get funding for apartments.

amcalester

Grayson wrote: »

Why is the only option moving people?

It's 1 option, not the only option.

BattleCorp

Assetbacked wrote: »

The economy rebounding is not because of NAMA's loan sales. Companies have expanded and unemployment has been reduced as an aside to NAMA. The government has not been able to handle the reduction in unemployment and the influx of workers by ensuring the resources of Dublin could handle it (transport, housing, health etc.). By using the NAMA sites to develop housing, the government could ensure apartments get built instead of flogging them to institutionals to hoover the money from the economy.

I never claimed NAMA played a part in the economy rebounding. That aside, I still don't think it's good value for money to pay €40m for sites like Apollo house and then build an apartment block on it. It doesn't make sense from a financial point of view. The price of the site is far too high.

What I will concede is to you is that the Government should be taking the €40m for Apollo House and buying greenfield sites elsewhere where the price of the site is much cheaper. They'd get far more houses/apartments built that way for less money but unfortunately the Government aren't doing that.

What we need now is leadership in the government, signs and communications that they are acknowledging the rental crisis and genuinely want to make it better. Minister Murphy is utterly useless and ineffective, not just for the role he has been assigned, but in his communication to the people.

I agree with the above but I don't see the NAMA city centre properties as being a realistic cost-effective solution.

Ronaldinho

LirW wrote: »

Because sustainable building isn't happening, every garden shed gets objected and the land that's freed up for building will turn into another development of semi-Ds instead of going up, partly because people have no imagination that you can raise a family in well-built (!) Apartments, partly because builders don't get funding for apartments.

It's a very subjective issue, but personally I think apartment living is shyte in Ireland We should be building higher in city centres alright (but cost seems to be a deterrent?). In my experience of apartment living - fine until you get into your 30s but eventually the issues caused by high densities begins to grate. Noise from late night/early morning parties, domestics, dogs let loose in communal areas etc. I can't imagine what it must be like for parents.

Moonjet

LirW wrote: »

Because sustainable building isn't happening, every garden shed gets objected and the land that's freed up for building will turn into another development of semi-Ds instead of going up, partly because people have no imagination that you can raise a family in well-built (!) Apartments, partly because builders don't get funding for apartments.

You can't raise a family in the shyte being thrown up by Irish developers. Even the best continental style 1500 sqft 3 bed apartments will never match even a standard 3-bed semi-D houses with front/back gardens for raising families. Storage/parking/stairs/family pets/private gardens to play in/safety/management fees/etc will always be a problem even with the best apartments.

Apartments work great for who they're intended (single/childless couples without pets/young working professionals) but I don't see the point in putting effort into the futile task of trying to match them with suburban semi-D houses for family life. With little price differential (and this won't change as apartments cost a fortune to build), families will always choose the semi-D and shouldn't be condemned for that.

Franz Von Peppercorn

^

How many semi Ds do you think they have in Paris?

LirW

Moonjet wrote: »

You can't raise a family in the shyte being thrown up by Irish developers. Even the best continental style 1500 sqft 3 bed apartments will never match even a standard 3-bed semi-D houses with front/back gardens for raising families. Storage/parking/stairs/family pets/private gardens to play in/safety/management fees/etc will always be a problem even with the best apartments.

Apartments work great for who they're intended (single/childless couples without pets/young working professionals) but I don't see the point in putting effort into the futile task of trying to match them with suburban semi-D houses for family life. With little price differential (and this won't change as apartments cost a fortune to build), families will always choose the semi-D and shouldn't be condemned for that.

I don't know, I grew up in apartments in continental and it's absolutely grand. Of course existing apartments here are rubbish, that would need to change. People buy them to live in them long term because it's an option for every age group. They don't build new houses there, they build low- to medium density apartment blocks.
It can be done really well, there's just no example of it here in Ireland.

Everyone wants affordable housing, everybody wants to live close to work in Urban areas but nobody wants to understand that this is not going to work out when space is used so inefficiently. Let's face it, the way cities are planned here is pretty rubbish and can't sustain a growing population. Dublin is already at a breaking point.

Lia_lia

c0rk3r wrote: »

After the first week we knew we were in trouble. We ramped up the search, we’d take it in turns to refresh daft (every hour) and email potential apartments. One week on, one week off. The advertisements would disappear after an hour or two so you’d need to be on the ball at all times. As you can imagine this got very tiring after a while.

Over 3 months, we managed to visit about 6-8 properties. The vast majority of which were overpriced, suicide inducing dumps. We would queue with about 40 other people just trying to get a look in. it was incredibly frustrating, stressful and just sad. Queuing for sub-standard accommodation, trying to out-bid people around you for something that just wasn’t worth it because people were desperate and hopeless.

We searched for 3 months, we took a break for 2 weeks in that time period because, you know, fcuk it. We went to a chaotic viewing in the city centre and finally stumbled into a liveable, decent apartment. Finally an actual place we would live. We messaged them first thing the next morning with payslips, employer references, drivers licences, bank statements and rental references for both of us. It was a 1 bed apartment for the same amount of money for the 2 bed in Rathgar.

We were delighted it was finally over.

When my girlfriend left her apartment, it nearly doubled in price. I feel really sorry for people out there struggling with this. If you have kids or were single it’s even harder, god help you if you’re on HAP. A lot of viewings were during work times too. We have a one year lease which is coming to an end soon, I've had a look at properties in our area and its worse still. I’m dreading the lease not being renewed (probably an irrational fear).

P.s Best smashed Avo in Dublin ? 2 boys brew, wuff and san Lorenzos

Christ, even reading that stresses me out. Glad ye found a place. Correct me if I'm wrong but even if it's a 1 year lease part 4 tenancy rules still apply. So ye can only be kicked out if the landlord decides to sell or else has someone in their family (or themselves) move in. This has been increased to 6 years.


We live in Cork city centre and are paying 900 a month for a small (but perfect for a couple) 2 bed house. Been there now almost 5 years and never had the rent raised. Street parking for €20 a year. We are extremely lucky. Will probably buy a house next year or the year after but no reason to move at the moment. Great being able to save.

AlphabetCards

Guys, you have to buy into globalisation. With the maastricht treaty and the EU driving whole workforces around the continent, you need to play the game. Move country, any country will do. Find one with low cost of living and low rent. You can utilise your skills and save up for your own place. Don't be a voluntary pauper and pay someones mortgage for years.

Loveache

Trying to find a place in Dublin is making me borderline nervous breakdown, the cash and references job etc are ready to go. I am emailing every disgusting overpriced little kip that pops up on Daft and hearing nothing back. It's been weeks of nothing.

JohnCleary

Loveache wrote: »

Trying to find a place in Dublin is making me borderline nervous breakdown, the cash and references job etc are ready to go. I am emailing every disgusting overpriced little kip that pops up on Daft and hearing nothing back. It's been weeks of nothing.

As a landlord, I pretty much ignored e-mails as so many phone calls were coming in.... within a few seconds a mutual viewing time would be arranged.... as opposed to e-mailing back and forth a few times.

Loveache

JohnCleary wrote: »

As a landlord, I pretty much ignored e-mails as so many phone calls were coming in.... within a few seconds a mutual viewing time would be arranged.... as opposed to e-mailing back and forth a few times.

They aren't including phone numbers, probably for that reason.

Wheres Me Jumper?

JohnCleary wrote: »

As a landlord, I pretty much ignored e-mails as so many phone calls were coming in.... within a few seconds a mutual viewing time would be arranged.... as opposed to e-mailing back and forth a few times.

funny i do the opposite. i usually whittle down the emails based on a few simple criteria. if in doubt i will file it in the round file. there is little point in wasting their time or mine, if they dont meet the criteria.

i then email the ones who i think are suitable with details of upcoming viewings ie day & time.
then i just turn up on the day and let people in.

works very well. normally a few hours viewing and i have a good idea who i want.

Andrewf20

From watching this crowded house on rte and looking at people I know, the one key thought that comes in to my mind is that getting a good education / qualification early on in a career that pays well, with good opportunities is very important.

Your goal should be to work as hard as you can for the leaving cert and college. Its something I will try an instill in my kids more than ever. Im not optimistic the future will be any easier for them when they grow up. Suffer in the short term to hopefully gain in the long term.

The world is going in the wrong direction with people working endless hours just to live an average life.

KevinCavan

Andrewf20 wrote: »

From watching this crowded house on rte and looking at people I know, the one key thought that comes in to my mind is that getting a good education / qualification early on in a career that pays well, with good opportunities is very important.

Your goal should be to work as hard as you can for the leaving cert and college. Its something I will try an instill in my kids more than ever. Im not optimistic the future will be any easier for them when they grow up. Suffer in the short term to hopefully gain in the long term.

The world is going in the wrong direction with people working endless hours just to live an average life.

With all this equality b.s., it just means the man and woman are working to service a mortgage. In the 80’s the man working would have been enough! Nowadays the Male and female are working and paying off mortgage and child-minder. Women’s liberation I call it!;-)

mammajamma

Loveache wrote: »

Trying to find a place in Dublin is making me borderline nervous breakdown, the cash and references job etc are ready to go. I am emailing every disgusting overpriced little kip that pops up on Daft and hearing nothing back. It's been weeks of nothing.

If its any consolation, you are one of very, very many. If you were to listen to the sanitised media you might go insane thinking its only an unlucky few in dire straits.

As you know yourself, this thing is far worse than anyone is letting on. The personal stories I know are out of this world, people working full time decently paid jobs, yet coming out with a few euro after the end of the month.

It wont last pissing time, the slightest economic breeze will blast it to smithereens.

mammajamma

Andrewf20 wrote: »

From watching this crowded house on rte and looking at people I know, the one key thought that comes in to my mind is that getting a good education / qualification early on in a career that pays well, with good opportunities is very important.

Your goal should be to work as hard as you can for the leaving cert and college. Its something I will try an instill in my kids more than ever. Im not optimistic the future will be any easier for them when they grow up. Suffer in the short term to hopefully gain in the long term.

The world is going in the wrong direction with people working endless hours just to live an average life.

If anything is a harbinger of doom, it is RTE pumping out housing related dross.

"how do build a shed for 300k in your back yard aided by some overpaid freak" at 8pm, followed by "the insane misery of people trying to live normal lives dressed-up-as-relateable-entertainment" at 9pm.

Only down from here, the only question is how long the faeces manages to float.

Wanderer78

KevinCavan wrote:

With all this equality b.s., it just means the man and woman are working to service a mortgage. In the 80’s the man working would have been enough! Nowadays the Male and female are working and paying off mortgage and child-minder. Women’s liberation I call it!;-)

I'd say it's more to do with the deregulation of the financial sector over the last couple of decades, flooding the globe with cheap credit, causing the rapid rise of the value of assets, tbh

mammajamma

And you have to ask yourself, where is all this vast amount of wealth going?

I mean, this money, in essence, is the productive output of the country, and a huge chunk of it is disappearing into the black hole of property.

If you outright own additional properties as a landlord you're laughing all the way to the moon. I don't care what troubles you may have, or what taxes you pay, its money for nothing at the end of the day compared to actually working a full time job 8 to 5.

But for those on buy-to-lets in debt, they are hoovering up money off working people, to pay for over-priced property/loans to a bank....

...and when it all goes kaput, and the property falls on its arse...where will all the money have gone? Where will all the millions of hours labour and effort disappear?

"sorry, you worked 45 hours a week for 10 years...for nothing"

Theres something seriously fictitious about the whole shebang, and to largely base an economy on such intangible "efforts" is mickey-mouse territory altogether.

Wanderer78

mammajamma wrote:

And you have to ask yourself, where is all this vast amount of wealth going?

Rent seeking or wealth extractive processes, probably won't end well either

whisky_galore

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

^

How many semi Ds do you think they have in Paris?

Yes, how on earth do people actually survive on the continent without space for a trampoline? They must revert to a state of savagery. Paddy still needs a bit of ground to grow schpuds.

mikhail

whisky_galore wrote: »

Yes, how on earth do people actually survive on the continent without space for a trampoline? They must revert to a state of savagery. Paddy still needs a bit of ground to grow schpuds.

You do realise other cities also have suburbs, right?
https://www.google.com/maps/@49.0012154,2.0846462,3a,75y,311.37h,93.17t/data=!3m9!1e1!3m7!1spaPdtKBLwFdem7c3PN7B9A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!9m2!1b1!2i37

Franz Von Peppercorn

mikhail wrote: »

You do realise other cities also have suburbs, right?
https://www.google.com/maps/@49.0012154,2.0846462,3a,75y,311.37h,93.17t/data=!3m9!1e1!3m7!1spaPdtKBLwFdem7c3PN7B9A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!9m2!1b1!2i37

This kind of post is deliberately disingenuous. I mentioned Paris for instance. Try finding a semi D or in the city proper (the 16 arrondissements). Plenty of family living there.

Yet most Irish people will not bring up a family in an appartment.

Assetbacked

mammajamma wrote: »

And you have to ask yourself, where is all this vast amount of wealth going?

I mean, this money, in essence, is the productive output of the country, and a huge chunk of it is disappearing into the black hole of property.

If you outright own additional properties as a landlord you're laughing all the way to the moon. I don't care what troubles you may have, or what taxes you pay, its money for nothing at the end of the day compared to actually working a full time job 8 to 5.

But for those on buy-to-lets in debt, they are hoovering up money off working people, to pay for over-priced property/loans to a bank....

...and when it all goes kaput, and the property falls on its arse...where will all the money have gone? Where will all the millions of hours labour and effort disappear?

"sorry, you worked 45 hours a week for 10 years...for nothing"

Theres something seriously fictitious about the whole shebang, and to largely base an economy on such intangible "efforts" is mickey-mouse territory altogether.

I think it ends up with protest voting. It is everything to do with globalisation. Unrestrained capitalism as an export of the US. To be honest, I think we need to start regulating the people we let come to Dublin to work so ideally we should be creating disincentives to multinationals to grow in Dublin. As someone who would be generally a capitalist proponent, I feel that we need to put serious shackles on it unless we want the fabric of society to tear like they have in the US. FG are pathetic as a political party and will never get a vote from me again. The last few years have shown them as incompetent and I shudder to think I voted for them but the fact is they lied about a lot of things just to get elected.

Arcade_Tryer

Sweet.Science wrote: »

It really is crazy whats going to happen . People who have worked all their lives with nowhere to live at retirement age while people who have never worked do.

Lay off the landlords.

mikhail

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

This kind of post is deliberately disingenuous. I mentioned Paris for instance. Try finding a semi D or in the city proper (the 16 arrondissements). Plenty of family living there.

Yet most Irish people will not bring up a family in an appartment.

They'd soon change their tune if there were enough apartments in town that they were affordable. There aren't, because the council won't let anyone but Google build something tall enough to cast shade on a gerbil 8' east of the property boundary at 3 pm on a Wednesday in December. There should be a significant region in town where no planning objections to the height of a building under 12 stories will be entertained. Instead, we have an 18th century centre in a modern city.

Arcade_Tryer

Captain Obvious wrote: »

It's hard to listen to people say there is a housing crisis when it's really an issue of people not getting a house where they want for no reason other than they like the area. If you are crying out for a house and one is offered to you in a rural area but you refuse it there should be no other offers and no emergency housing. The house is there for you. Yeah you won't be able to hop on the bus into the smoke in 10 minutes but that's just a small sacrifice. And what does it matter if they are low employment areas if the person is long term unemployed?

This post is the antithesis of society.

Das Reich

So basically a family paying 2.000 in rent is giving at least 400 € per month straight to the government pocket in taxes, and still blamimg landlords.

JustAYoungLad

Back in the days people revolted and dragged landlords out their homes and strung them up trees as example.

Maybe a call to traditional methods is needed?

Captain Obvious

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

This post is the antithesis of society.

Depends on the society

Greyfox

mikhail wrote: »

There should be a significant region in town where no planning objections to the height of a building under 12 stories will be entertained. Instead, we have an 18th century centre in a modern city.

Building skyscapers is the only easy solution and it would make a huge difference, it would solve the rental crisis and make tens of thousands of people's lives far better. Its not going to happen though as people with the power to make the change think saving our ok but boring skyline is more important than helping thousands of people have a decent standard of living. It's true we have to be careful about the types of skyscrapers we build but those people against skyscrapers are ars*holes

Franz Von Peppercorn

Das Reich wrote: »

So basically a family paying 2.000 in rent is giving at least 400 € per month stright to the government pocket in taxes, and still blamimg landlords.

The cost of rent isn’t affected by the tax.

Das Reich

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The cost of rent isn’t affected by the tax.

But the money the state gets is affected by the cost of rent and by how many people are renting.

Samuel T. Cogley

Das Reich wrote: »

But the money the state gets is affected by the cost of rent and by how many people are renting.

Exactly. With caps now in place there is no reason why the government can't reintroduce tax relief for tenants, they simply won't as renters are proping up the exchequer.

whisky_galore

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

This kind of post is deliberately disingenuous. I mentioned Paris for instance. Try finding a semi D or in the city proper (the 16 arrondissements). Plenty of family living there.

Yet most Irish people will not bring up a family in an appartment.

No room for the Labrador and the fcukloads of barely used, unnecessary stuff that needs to go in a garden shed.

limnam

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Exactly. With caps now in place there is no reason why the government can't reintroduce tax relief for tenants, they simply won't as renters are proping up the exchequer.

There's a hell of a lot more tax income if we had thousands of houses been built. Between income tax/VAT/Property tax/Stamp duty/ and every other part of the micro economy of building/houses purchasing than the few quid of the % of landlords that actually manage to pay a few quid in tax.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Das Reich wrote: »

But the money the state gets is affected by the cost of rent and by how many people are renting.

You think that’s bad?