IRFU land sale

Squidgy Black

Mc Love wrote: »

I wonder will they put the money into the club game as it's seriously lacking in terms of promotion and getting fans back/encouraging new fans to join their local rugby club.

I'm going to do my best The Lost Sheep impression and ask, what would you suggest they use the money for in terms of helping clubs? Other than splitting it evenly across all teams.

prawnsambo

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I'm going to do my best The Lost Sheep impression and ask, what would you suggest they use the money for in terms of helping clubs? Other than splitting it evenly across all teams.

I think that's what they said they'd do with it. I wonder will it dovetail with the stated intention of creating a semi-pro league from the top echelons of division 1?

Squidgy Black

prawnsambo wrote: »

I think that's what they said they'd do with it. I wonder will it dovetail with the stated intention of creating a semi-pro league from the top echelons of division 1?

Would be nice to see them do a revamp of the league system, but again requires buy in from the clubs.

Quin_Dub

Mc Love wrote: »

I wonder will they put the money into the club game as it's seriously lacking in terms of promotion and getting fans back/encouraging new fans to join their local rugby club.

The investment is needed in the 16 to 22 year old range.

Solve that massive drop off and you solve a huge amount of the issues.

Invest in more local development officers to help clubs improve standards , provide financial support to clubs to help them hold on to players after they leave school.

Lots of things that should be done..

prawnsambo

Quin_Dub wrote: »

The investment is needed in the 16 to 22 year old range.

Solve that massive drop off and you solve a huge amount of the issues.

That's an issue that bedevils all sports. It's not really something that can be changed because that's the age group that's moved into serious study time and something usually has to give. It's like that old adage of university being the three Ss: Study, Social and Sport and you can only successfully do two of them.

The Lost Sheep

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Would be nice to see them do a revamp of the league system, but again requires buy in from the clubs.

What would you want in a revamp of the league system and do you want revamp at junior levels as well as senior as theres many issues in the junior leagues not just AIL.

Quin_Dub wrote: »

The investment is needed in the 16 to 22 year old range.

Solve that massive drop off and you solve a huge amount of the issues.

Invest in more local development officers to help clubs improve standards, provide financial support to clubs to help them hold on to players after they leave school.

Lots of things that should be done..

How do you solve that?
Investment in what? Work, beer, women always has affected that age grade.
Yes more development officers would help but its more different competition formats and different game formats being used to have more clubs and more players retained in that age grade.

Squidgy Black

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

What would you want in a revamp of the league system and do you want revamp at junior levels as well as senior as theres many issues in the junior leagues not just AIL.

I'm not sure to be honest. I've only played social rugby which was mostly affected by numbers more than anything.

I'd like to see an investment in development officers for schools/clubs, I think this time around the RWC and with Ireland playing at such a high level is a good time to try capitalise on building the game and playing numbers.

Player welfare for junior players and senior, availability of more medical staff at games/physios and treatment.

Something I noticed as well is the college setup. Everything is generally done by SSI for teams, and the league system outside of the top tier is fairly broken. I'm not sure how you fix that though, other than trying to put grants in place for colleges to purchase better equipment but possibly going in and helping lower colleges with training plans and development plans to encourage them to grow the sport and give players an opportunity to play. Keeping players playing in college could lead to them playing with their club after also.

Mc Love

Quin_Dub wrote: »

The investment is needed in the 16 to 22 year old range.

Solve that massive drop off and you solve a huge amount of the issues.

Invest in more local development officers to help clubs improve standards , provide financial support to clubs to help them hold on to players after they leave school.

Lots of things that should be done..

Leinster has the schools system and that has gone well, but they've started to try it in Munster and I think it's better to have a club system in Munster (Limerick) if you play with your school you cant play with your club (unless it has changed), which would have introduced the kids to rugby in the first place.

The Lost Sheep

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I'm not sure to be honest. I've only played social rugby which was mostly affected by numbers more than anything.

I'd like to see an investment in development officers for schools/clubs, I think this time around the RWC and with Ireland playing at such a high level is a good time to try capitalise on building the game and playing numbers.

Player welfare for junior players and senior, availability of more medical staff at games/physios and treatment.

Something I noticed as well is the college setup. Everything is generally done by SSI for teams, and the league system outside of the top tier is fairly broken. I'm not sure how you fix that though, other than trying to put grants in place for colleges to purchase better equipment but possibly going in and helping lower colleges with training plans and development plans to encourage them to grow the sport and give players an opportunity to play. Keeping players playing in college could lead to them playing with their club after also.

There has been significant investment in development officers over the years. Connacht recently have made partnerships with county councils to hire development officers for the work they put in in schools/clubs to develop more people playing the sport. Other provinces are same.
SSI do run leagues but i wouldnt say, from experience of refereeing/playing in SSI competitions, the league system is fairly broken.

Squidgy Black

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

There has been significant investment in development officers over the years. Connacht recently have made partnerships with county councils to hire development officers for the work they put in in schools/clubs to develop more people playing the sport. Other provinces are same.
SSI do run leagues but i wouldnt say, from experience of refereeing/playing in SSI competitions, the league system is fairly broken.

I started/managed/played for a team at the lower tier of the SSI leagues (development leagues) for two years, and we struggled to get much guidance/input from them personally.

Former Former

prawnsambo wrote: »

I think that's what they said they'd do with it. I wonder will it dovetail with the stated intention of creating a semi-pro league from the top echelons of division 1?

If they p*ss this money away on the AIL, I'll be very annoyed.

The Lost Sheep

Mc Love wrote: »

Leinster has the schools system and that has gone well, but they've started to try it in Munster and I think it's better to have a club system in Munster (Limerick) if you play with your school you cant play with your club (unless it has changed), which would have introduced the kids to rugby in the first place.

They havent started anything like that in Munster.
It hasnt changed in Munster.

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I started/managed/played for a team at the lower tier of the SSI leagues (development leagues) for two years, and we struggled to get much guidance/input from them personally.

What guidance/input would you have wanted?

prawnsambo

Former Former wrote: »

If they p*ss this money away on the AIL, I'll be very annoyed.

Why?


I don't think it's earmarked for just one project btw, I was just hypothesising one possible area for some of it.

Former Former

prawnsambo wrote: »

Why?


I don't think it's earmarked for just one project btw, I was just hypothesising one possible area for some of it.

Because the AIL is done, its time has passed, it will never be viable even as semi-pro. If you're planning for the future, the money needs to go to underage development, facilities, paying down debt. Using a one-off windfall to subsidise the AIL isn't a good way to use the money.

Squidgy Black

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

What guidance/input would you have wanted?

Training plans, development plans for building the team up, even on an administration level in terms of working with the college/students union as to how to assist with running the team/getting setup.

We were lucky enough that we managed to reach out to a local club who helped us try and get on our feet in terms of grounds and basic equipment. But as far as I'm aware once I stepped away (due to final year commitments) everything collapsed and they haven't trained/played since.

I know SSI have the leagues (which at the development level didn't really work out as teams didn't want to commit and we ended up just having to organise friendlies between other colleges), and the 7s tournament organised in DCU.

I just think it's a good way to try and keep players from that 18-22 age bracket playing. More on a social level at the lower leagues as opposed to the Universities that have dedicated sports programmes in place for rugby and full scholarships etc.

The Lost Sheep

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Training plans, development plans for building the team up, even on an administration level in terms of working with the college/students union as to how to assist with running the team/getting setup.

We were lucky enough that we managed to reach out to a local club who helped us try and get on our feet in terms of grounds and basic equipment. But as far as I'm aware once I stepped away (due to final year commitments) everything collapsed and they haven't trained/played since.

I know SSI have the leagues (which at the development level didn't really work out as teams didn't want to commit and we ended up just having to organise friendlies between other colleges), and the 7s tournament organised in DCU.

I just think it's a good way to try and keep players from that 18-22 age bracket playing. More on a social level at the lower leagues as opposed to the Universities that have dedicated sports programmes in place for rugby and full scholarships etc.

SSI are college teams as opposed to the universities which are full clubs.
They can be good ways to keep people involved. I know i played in these competitions and have refereed them as well.
From experience of a lot of the colleges i see teams as managed well. Development officers coaching teams. Colleges providing enough support.

prawnsambo

Former Former wrote: »

Because the AIL is done, its time has passed, it will never be viable even as semi-pro. If you're planning for the future, the money needs to go to underage development, facilities, paying down debt. Using a one-off windfall to subsidise the AIL isn't a good way to use the money.

I don't agree with that tbh. There's no room for growth in the game if you don't have an outlet at senior level. We're almost at saturation point in Leinster and although the other provinces are providing an outlet, that will soon get to saturation point too. Even Italy have a semi-pro league below their two full pro teams.

awec

Former Former wrote: »

Because the AIL is done, its time has passed, it will never be viable even as semi-pro. If you're planning for the future, the money needs to go to underage development, facilities, paying down debt. Using a one-off windfall to subsidise the AIL isn't a good way to use the money.

The AIL would not be subsidised in its current form.

If I remember right, there were plans to drastically reduce the AIL to one division that was ringfenced (no promo or relegation) and have it operate as a semi-pro league with ~4 teams from each province, with the leagues then reverting to regional based below this.

The Lost Sheep

prawnsambo wrote: »

I don't agree with that tbh. There's no room for growth in the game if you don't have an outlet at senior level. We're almost at saturation point in Leinster and although the other provinces are providing an outlet, that will soon get to saturation point too. Even Italy have a semi-pro league below their two full pro teams.

Leinster isnt really at saturation point though and other provinces are far from it.

awec wrote: »

The AIL would not be subsidised in its current form.

If I remember right, there were plans to drastically reduce the AIL to one division that was ringfenced (no promo or relegation) and have it operate as a semi-pro league with ~4 teams from each province, with the leagues then reverting to regional based below this.

It was going to be less than that as there's only 5 senior clubs in Connacht as it is and Ulster has 12 split evenly between 1B+2A and 2B/C. A semi pro league with equal sides from all provinces would take away from Leinster/Munster clubs who are the dominant forces in club rugby.

Guy:Incognito

awec wrote: »

The AIL would not be subsidised in its current form.

If I remember right, there were plans to drastically reduce the AIL to one division that was ringfenced (no promo or relegation) and have it operate as a semi-pro league with ~4 teams from each province, with the leagues then reverting to regional based below this.

There was an article on this the other day, talking about Nucifora and the friendlies the province A teams are going to be playing against the new American team joining the league over there. The clubs rejected it (the AIL revamp) on a few grounds apparently. Things like having no limits on the amount of pro players and other stuff I can't remember that they didn't agree with. Think the IRFU idea was to give the lads that aren't getting regular game time for the provinces more games.

prawnsambo

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Leinster isnt really at saturation point though and other provinces are far from it.

I didn't say it was. I said almost.

The Lost Sheep

prawnsambo wrote: »

I didn't say it was. I said almost.

It isnt almost either. Long way to go for that to happen

awec

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

There was an article on this the other day, talking about Nucifora and the friendlies the province A teams are going to be playing against the new American team joining the league over there. The clubs rejected it (the AIL revamp) on a few grounds apparently. Things like having no limits on the amount of pro players and other stuff I can't remember that they didn't agree with. Think the IRFU idea was to give the lads that aren't getting regular game time for the provinces more games.

The clubs rejected it but I expect it will be taken out of their hands now.

Former Former

prawnsambo wrote: »

I don't agree with that tbh. There's no room for growth in the game if you don't have an outlet at senior level. We're almost at saturation point in Leinster and although the other provinces are providing an outlet, that will soon get to saturation point too. Even Italy have a semi-pro league below their two full pro teams.

If there's a need for such a league and it's sustainable on its own two feet, then let's get it going.

Diverting this windfall cash to such a league would be very bad planning.

awec

Former Former wrote: »

If there's a need for such a league and it's sustainable on its own two feet, then let's get it going.

Diverting this windfall cash to such a league would be very bad planning.

But not a lot of rugby in Ireland would be sustainable without windfall cash.


The provinces would never survive without the IRFU pumping money in. Leinster couldn't stand on it's own two feet.



No reason why a semi-pro league for fringe provincial players to play in could not be successful.

prawnsambo

awec wrote: »

But not a lot of rugby in Ireland would be sustainable without windfall cash.

The provinces would never survive without the IRFU pumping money in. Leinster couldn't stand on it's own two feet.

No reason why a semi-pro league for fringe provincial players to play in could not be successful.

Any sport even. That's why there's state funding of sports. Some will get to a level where they're self-sustaining, and rugby is not far off that. But a gap has developed between the AIL and pro rugby in this country and I don't believe that it's good for the sport. Having a semi-pro league will bridge that gap imo.

salmocab

This would be a great opportunity to get some good infrastructure. It would go a long way to getting clubs facilities upgraded around the country. Pitches, lights even toward Astro pitches. There are govt grants available for various things but you need matching funds to draw down. So if a club needed 100,000 for lights and got a grant the irfu could give 50k with 50% to be paid back as a loan and 50% as a once off grant.
Obviously I’m pulling figures from my hole but you get the idea.

The Lost Sheep

awec wrote: »

But not a lot of rugby in Ireland would be sustainable without windfall cash.

The provinces would never survive without the IRFU pumping money in. Leinster couldn't stand on it's own two feet.

No reason why a semi-pro league for fringe provincial players to play in could not be successful.

Who plays in this semi pro league and where apart from the unions funds it as a pro/semi pro endeavour? You could/would have to extend the celtic cup for there to be a semi pro league for fringe provincial players but we've already seen plenty criticism of that.

prawnsambo wrote: »

Any sport even. That's why there's state funding of sports. Some will get to a level where they're self-sustaining, and rugby is not far off that. But a gap has developed between the AIL and pro rugby in this country and I don't believe that it's good for the sport. Having a semi-pro league will bridge that gap imo.

Semi pro funded by IRFU/provinces and what else? There has been a substantial gap between AIL and pro rugby for some time.

salmocab wrote: »

This would be a great opportunity to get some good infrastructure. It would go a long way to getting clubs facilities upgraded around the country. Pitches, lights even toward Astro pitches. There are govt grants available for various things but you need matching funds to draw down. So if a club needed 100,000 for lights and got a grant the irfu could give 50k with 50% to be paid back as a loan and 50% as a once off grant.
Obviously I’m pulling figures from my hole but you get the idea.

Possibly but clubs should be working together with clubs of other sports as well on funding and facilities.

errlloyd

To be fair to everyone involved, this seems like it was quite a prudent piece of financial management from the IRFU.

Not sure what they paid, but I'd say they made a decent return. The land is currently agrictultural, but they're entitled to 44% of the value of the land if it gets rezoned in the next 10 years (minus fees and what they already got). So if that land pops up again on the market in 9 years time at €100m they'll get another decent chunk out of it.

They're very probably selling at peak value, and they also seem to have waited to get to a point where they're confident we don't need it. Doubt about training facilities, the long term future of the RDS and club expansion is all gone.

Where that 27 million goes is a PHD Worthy question of sporting economics. We could for example professionalise our womens team for a few years. We could pump it into schools or clubs. We could give Connacht assistance with stadium development.

My personal preference is actually that we would be very careful not to be too frivolous with it. The IRFU are doing very well off extraordinary income right now. Things like prize money, Chicago tests and the increased ticket prices and jersey sales they're getting off team success right now. I don't think that is definitely sustainable the assumption that we continue to outperform competitors on the field is a bit nuts. So I'd like the IRFU to hold onto a bit of a warchest. In 4 or 5 years time if we're not doing so well we might need it to hold on to top players.

prawnsambo

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Semi pro funded by IRFU/provinces and what else? There has been a substantial gap between AIL and pro rugby for some time.

Yes there has. I think I actually said that. Now, what's your proposal to fix this? Because any time anyone makes a suggestion, you're along pdq to shut it down.

Former Former

awec wrote: »

But not a lot of rugby in Ireland would be sustainable without windfall cash.


The provinces would never survive without the IRFU pumping money in. Leinster couldn't stand on it's own two feet.



No reason why a semi-pro league for fringe provincial players to play in could not be successful.

There's no reason it couldn't be successful? There are loads, chiefly that no one wants it.

But if it's going to be successful, then let's do it. If it needs subvention then great, put it in the budget and cut the money from something else.

But you cannot spend a one off windfall like this on an ongoing expense like the AIL. That's basic economics.

thomond2006

Leinster have just had their most successful season ever and you still don't see a full RDS for every game. Thomond Park is mostly empty for dirtracker games.

A semi-pro league is an insane idea. There's no way it would be sustainable.

Squidgy Black

I vote for a petition for the IRFU to buy Kielys and rename the ROCK tavern.

And entry only allowed if wearing a pre 2008 Leisnter jersey, chinos and dubes.

salmocab

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Who plays in this semi pro league and where apart from the unions funds it as a pro/semi pro endeavour? You could/would have to extend the celtic cup for there to be a semi pro league for fringe provincial players but we've already seen plenty criticism of that.

Semi pro funded by IRFU/provinces and what else? There has been a substantial gap between AIL and pro rugby for some time.

Possibly but clubs should be working together with clubs of other sports as well on funding and facilities.

I’d strongly agree with the last paragraph it bugs me when I see schools and sports clubs with 2 sets of everything and they might be next door and never used at the same time, I’ve often thought govt funding should be targeted at joint ventures.

prawnsambo

thomond2006 wrote: »

Leinster have just had their most successful season ever and you still don't see a full RDS for every game.

A semi-pro league is an insane idea. There's no way it would be sustainable.

So because Leinster don't attract a full 18k to every match, a semi-pro league won't work? Connacht max out at 8k with temporary terraces at each end. Should we close down Connacht because the support isn't there?

The Lost Sheep

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yes there has. I think I actually said that. Now, what's your proposal to fix this? Because any time anyone makes a suggestion, you're along pdq to shut it down.

Fix what the gap?
Talking about semi pro league is crazy considering the provinces dont get "sold out" signs all that often and the club game needs support far more.
We dont need to be putting in semi pro rugby below the provinces. Enough clubs messed themselves around when money was being thrown around by everyone and allowing semi pro come into equation shouldnt happen because of that as well as support base not being there for it

Rigor Mortis

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Presumably that crowd will just sit on it for 10 years and a day and save themselves millions.

That won't happen because they aren't insane.

prawnsambo

salmocab wrote: »

I’d strongly agree with the last paragraph it bugs me when I see schools and sports clubs with 2 sets of everything and they might be next door and never used at the same time, I’ve often thought govt funding should be targeted at joint ventures.

It actually is. Sports Capital Grant applications have a section about wider availability and the facilities being open to other sports or bodies. I don't know what weight that's given in the final analysis, but it is there on the form. Or it was the last time I saw one.

prawnsambo

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Fix what the gap?
Talking about semi pro league is crazy considering the provinces dont get "sold out" signs all that often and the club game needs support far more.
We dont need to be putting in semi pro rugby below the provinces. Enough clubs messed themselves around when money was being thrown around by everyone and allowing semi pro come into equation shouldnt happen because of that as well as support base not being there for it

Yes. And true to form, you haven't addressed it.

awec

It depends on what you define as successful for this semi pro league.

A league where fringe / A players can play every week at a competitive level (higher than current AIL, below Pro14) that doesn't cost a fortune to run is achievable. If this is what they want, they can probably be successful.

A league that gets hundreds or thousands through the gates every week? Probably not, but I'm not sure it's a goal.

The Lost Sheep

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yes. And true to form, you haven't addressed it.

What do you want me to address? Ive no idea how to adress the gap but just having more pros playing AIL wont close the gap. And that doesnt help the provinces who would benefit from more A games as theyve guys playing on one team and not 3/4/5. The gap cant really close.

awec wrote: »

It depends on what you define as successful for this semi pro league.

A league where fringe / A players can play every week at a competitive level (higher than current AIL, below Pro14) that doesn't cost a fortune to run is achievable. If this is what they want, they can probably be successful.

A league that gets hundreds or thousands through the gates every week? Probably not, but I'm not sure it's a goal.

Provinces want fringe guys playing together. But by and large that wont get high attendances/support. Club game would be far better with players playing for clubs across division 1A/1B but provinces dont like that as they dont have enough control over players... hard to find a suitable compromise

Losty Dublin

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

I don't see where I said it wasn't across the road, in fact, my words were "parking is across the road......." . Weekend access to changing rooms isn't much good when training is during the week.
Use of any school grounds is at the discretion of a school and could change at any point in the future. Don't see where that can be disputed.

As stated in my initial post, Tallaght have key access to the changing rooms and grounds so they can come and go pretty much as they please. The pitch itself is not on the school grounds but literally across the road.

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

No one said give the club a free home. Each time it was mentioned I think I said on some sort of rent to buy or long term sale agreement.

Firhouse is the fourth home grounds that they've used in recent years. Perhaps stability is what they need more.

joseywhales

If the goal is long term ROI, then one would imagine they will invest in providing engaging environments for kids and their parents in both traditional and non traditional areas.

For the most part the IRFU have shown themselves to have great vision and leadership and one would imagine the above is a priority for them.

I read and hear a lot of opinions on individual scenarios that the IRFU have performed well in and sometimes terribly.
However what is encouraging is that there is evidence that they have the humility to accept faults, the integrity to do what they profess and the conviction to follow through on long term plans.

I honestly use them as a personal reference point.

Its not a race to the bottom but compare them to other sporting organisations in this country.

Podge_irl

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yes. And true to form, you haven't addressed it.

Who says it needs fixing? The likes of the Celtic Cup are far more useful to the professional game than the AIL is, or would be even if it was semi-pro. There is no need for it.

stephen_n

prawnsambo wrote: »

So because Leinster don't attract a full 18k to every match, a semi-pro league won't work? Connacht max out at 8k with temporary terraces at each end. Should we close down Connacht because the support isn't there?

No but how does this “semi pro” team finance itself? If they can’t generate a decent support base, there is no hope of attracting sponsorship. This is the if we build it they will come approach, what happens when they don’t? The IRFU continues to fund it until all this money is gone, then what?

Guy:Incognito

Losty Dublin wrote: »

As stated in my initial post, Tallaght have key access to the changing rooms and grounds so they can come and go pretty much as they please. The pitch itself is not on the school grounds but literally across the road.



Firhouse is the fourth home grounds that they've used in recent years. Perhaps stability is what they need more.

Firhouse is for training. The pitch is best described as a rolling series of hills and power lines cut across it. The first match played on it and 3 of the first 4 kick offs towards the end with the container hit the lines. As far as matches go it's last resort use really.

It, and the tymon pitch are Council pitches. They are deemed unplayable when the park is called off as a whole, despite the pitch actually being really good and never holding water.