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Estate House Rules legality
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Peregrinus wrote: »The fact that estate rules may be binding doesn't mean that the guards will enforce them. This is a civil matter, not a criminal matter. It's up to the management company to enforce them, ultimately through court action.
No court is going to rule that children can't play outside in front of their own houses, even if a management company was stupid enough to spend money trying to sue their own membership for letting their children play outside!0 -
OK, so after having received all of your very helpful assistance I have compiled a flyer to be distributed to my neighbours, the residents of the estate. It would be great if you could have a look and let me know whether you think any part of it is incorrect, not according to how the law works or a misinterpretation of what you have communicated to me regarding Management Company Rules versus law and bye-law. Thank you!
FELLOW RESIDENTS OF XXXX: With the upcoming Residents Meeting and a voting on House Rules, it is of the utmost importance to the integrity of your rights and freedoms that you be informed correctly on the legal validity and power of Estate Management Company House Rules.
House Rules only apply to common areas managed by the Management Company. They do not apply to your private property – unless you sign an explicit written agreement for them to do so. Management companies may need rules by law but the only rule really needed is that residents should pay their management company fees. Any other rules are infringement on personal freedom and your choice of lifestyle. Unless you wish to be bound by other people's ideas of how you should love your life, do not sign any rules documents or bind yourself to them in writing.
Our houses are freeholds. As such the applicability of any house rules ends at the boundary of our properties. This is an important point to be aware of. Especially since the contract we signed at the purchase of the house does not regulate the relationship between members and the management company. Be aware that you cannot be forced to be bound to the Management Company introducing retrospective rules.
The Management Company would have to obtain our explicit agreement, in writing, for us to be bound by the house rules, before they could levy any fines on us for breaching them. Your driveway, front and back yard, house facade and inside of your house are private property and therefore no rules of the Management Company can apply to them, nor is it a "public place" as interpreted in legislation, unless you have signed away your rights. Even if a set of House Rules was part of the original contract you signed upon purchasing the house, no additional rules can be imposed on you unless explicitly agreed to by yourself.
No permission need be obtained for any activities other than activities defined by national or local law requiring permission - which should be sought with the council in any case, never with the Management Company.
If you do end up agreeing to any new House Rules pertaining to limitations of personal freedom, national laws and local bye-laws outweigh any rules set by individuals or corporations regardless.
With regards to dogs needing to be on leads or not, our Council has made it clear that while XXXX is a private estate, under legislation it is a public place. As such the Control Dog Act 1986 applies: All dogs must be under effectual control while in a public place. Anyone walking a dog in a public place must ensure that the dog is under control at all times. This doesn't necessarily mean that the dog has to be on a lead, but it must, for example, come to "heel" when called. However, there are some areas within the county where dogs must be on leads, i.e. parks, beaches. A dog doesn't have to be on a lead when it is on private property.
With regards to children playing on the street in relation to House Rules, again the laws and bye-laws governing public spaces apply. So unless we have explicitly agreed to these rules, the only recourse the Management Company will have to enforce such rules is to try and bring a private prosecution against our children for trespass. This would naturally be laughed out of the solicitor's office. Even if a solicitor is found willing to undertake such a case – at great legal expense, Gardai and courts will deem such action a gross waste of the Police’s and the Courts’ time and expenses.
The residents' meeting with a documented vote on the implementation of House Rules might be interpretable as being the moment and the place the House Rules are, in legal terms, explicitly accepted as being binding to you personally. If you are in no way interested in signing up to House Rules or being bound by them, simply do not agree to being bound by them in any way at any time and reject the notion of new and binding House Rules outright.
Signed on behalf of our shared Private Rights and Personal Freedom,
XXXXX1 -
this sounds like you have one fascist who clearly doesn't like dogs or children or any fun whatsoever living in the estate.0
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Peregrinus wrote: »The fact that estate rules may be binding doesn't mean that the guards will enforce them. This is a civil matter, not a criminal matter. It's up to the management company to enforce them, ultimately through court action.
Or could they try a fine?
I believe this is all ridiculous.
But say they fined you and you had one or more fines against you from the management company it may impact you selling at a later date.
Glad I live in the sticks.0 -
Non-legal opinion, but as a resident/owner, I'd bin that thinking you were another crackpot. I've edited below (and open to corrections).fromdublin wrote: »OK, so after having received all of your very helpful assistance I have compiled a flyer to be distributed to my neighbours, the residents of the estate. It would be great if you could have a look and let me know whether you think any part of it is incorrect, not according to how the law works or a misinterpretation of what you have communicated to me regarding Management Company Rules versus law and bye-law. Thank you!
Dear Neighbours: With the upcoming Residents Meeting and a vote on House Rules, I've done some research into the validity and power of Estate Management Company House Rules.
House Rules only apply to common areas managed by the Management Company. They do not apply to your private property – unless you sign an explicit written agreement for them to do so. If you disagree with the proposed rules (such as keeping pets, or requesting advance permission for a party), don't sign anything agreeing to them.
The contract you signed at the (freehold) purchase of the house does not regulate the relationship between members and the management company.
The Management Company would have to obtain your explicit agreement, in writing, for you to be bound by the new proposed house rules before they could levy any fines on us for breaching them.
If you do end up agreeing to any new House Rules (which in my opinion limit personal freedoms), national laws and local bye-laws outweigh any rules set by individuals or corporations regardless. These cover items such as control of dogs in a public place.
The vote on the new rules, which are largely unenforceable, is taking place at <location, date, time>. All owners present will be asked to vote, so if you disagree with the new rules, please ensure you turn up and vote no.
Signed
XXXXX1 -
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Non-legal opinion, but as a resident/owner, I'd bin that thinking you were another crackpot.
+1
Unsolicited legal opinion/advice dropped through the letterbox would be on a fast-track to the recycling.
OP, I can't help but think you'd be better off completely ignoring your interpretation of the legal elements. If you're going to campaign, do it on the basis; these are the proposed changes, this is how it may affect residents, this is what you can do to stop it.1 -
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+1
Unsolicited legal opinion/advice dropped through the letterbox would be on a fast-track to the recycling.
OP, I can't help but think you'd be better off completely ignoring your interpretation of the legal elements. If you're going to campaign, do it on the basis; these are the proposed changes, this is how it may affect residents, this is what you can do to stop it.
I do wonder, though: is it better to vote and vote 'No' and/or to state at the vote: "This vote is irrelevant because such additional rules are non-binding and I do not sign up for them as being binding"? Will voting on rules not constitute as giving them power?0 -
The approach I'd take at the meeting is to forget about laws and legal stuff (you're not a solicitor, neither am I), don't start spouting off about personal liberties. I'd request that each rule be discussed and voted on individually. They may complain that will take too long, but stick to your guns.
For example, the "uniform design of front gardens" isn't a terrible one in my mind. It stops someone building a 6ft breeze block wall where everyone else has a knee high fence. Yes, technically (with proper planning permission or whatever) someone is entitled to build a giant wall in front of their house, but it would make the estate look odd. I'd open a discussion on what they're trying to prevent with that rule - is it to stop people doing something weird, or are they of the opinion that everyone must have precisely 3 lavender plants, that are exactly 30cm in diameter?
Similarly with kids playing on the green. Maybe the intention is to stop the green area becoming a football pitch for 20 teenagers from 5 streets over, to the exclusion of the local toddlers. Perhaps the "parties" rule is because of that one house who have orgies with loud music and flood lights in the back garden every Tuesday and Thursday until 5am.
You can also raise the question of how these rules will be enforced if the vote passes - will it be a fine added to your management fee, or will a bunch of people in balaclavas turn up at your door and warn you that your children have been seen... playing in public (dun dun duh).
If the neighbourhood as a whole vote against people having floodlit orgies, then the polite thing to do would be not to host any. "This is my house, and I'll do whatever I want, and f___ the rest of you" is never a good way to build relationships.0 -
You lost me and I would say everyone else 3 lines in make it short and sweet why people should vote no. Leave out legalise stuff. Also the way you signed it off sounds like a sicalis/Freeman thing so take away. You want people to come and vote or vote in absinthe if they cant make it not believe you are a bit out there. Be short point no fingers and urge people to come vote and air what they thinkfromdublin wrote: »OK, so after having received all of your very helpful assistance I have compiled a flyer to be distributed to my neighbours, the residents of the estate. It would be great if you could have a look and let me know whether you think any part of it is incorrect, not according to how the law works or a misinterpretation of what you have communicated to me regarding Management Company Rules versus law and bye-law. Thank you!
FELLOW RESIDENTS OF XXXX: With the upcoming Residents Meeting and a voting on House Rules, it is of the utmost importance to the integrity of your rights and freedoms that you be informed correctly on the legal validity and power of Estate Management Company House Rules.
House Rules only apply to common areas managed by the Management Company. They do not apply to your private property – unless you sign an explicit written agreement for them to do so. Management companies may need rules by law but the only rule really needed is that residents should pay their management company fees. Any other rules are infringement on personal freedom and your choice of lifestyle. Unless you wish to be bound by other people's ideas of how you should love your life, do not sign any rules documents or bind yourself to them in writing.
Our houses are freeholds. As such the applicability of any house rules ends at the boundary of our properties. This is an important point to be aware of. Especially since the contract we signed at the purchase of the house does not regulate the relationship between members and the management company. Be aware that you cannot be forced to be bound to the Management Company introducing retrospective rules.
The Management Company would have to obtain our explicit agreement, in writing, for us to be bound by the house rules, before they could levy any fines on us for breaching them. Your driveway, front and back yard, house facade and inside of your house are private property and therefore no rules of the Management Company can apply to them, nor is it a "public place" as interpreted in legislation, unless you have signed away your rights. Even if a set of House Rules was part of the original contract you signed upon purchasing the house, no additional rules can be imposed on you unless explicitly agreed to by yourself.
No permission need be obtained for any activities other than activities defined by national or local law requiring permission - which should be sought with the council in any case, never with the Management Company.
If you do end up agreeing to any new House Rules pertaining to limitations of personal freedom, national laws and local bye-laws outweigh any rules set by individuals or corporations regardless.
With regards to dogs needing to be on leads or not, our Council has made it clear that while XXXX is a private estate, under legislation it is a public place. As such the Control Dog Act 1986 applies: All dogs must be under effectual control while in a public place. Anyone walking a dog in a public place must ensure that the dog is under control at all times. This doesn't necessarily mean that the dog has to be on a lead, but it must, for example, come to "heel" when called. However, there are some areas within the county where dogs must be on leads, i.e. parks, beaches. A dog doesn't have to be on a lead when it is on private property.
With regards to children playing on the street in relation to House Rules, again the laws and bye-laws governing public spaces apply. So unless we have explicitly agreed to these rules, the only recourse the Management Company will have to enforce such rules is to try and bring a private prosecution against our children for trespass. This would naturally be laughed out of the solicitor's office. Even if a solicitor is found willing to undertake such a case – at great legal expense, Gardai and courts will deem such action a gross waste of the Police’s and the Courts’ time and expenses.
The residents' meeting with a documented vote on the implementation of House Rules might be interpretable as being the moment and the place the House Rules are, in legal terms, explicitly accepted as being binding to you personally. If you are in no way interested in signing up to House Rules or being bound by them, simply do not agree to being bound by them in any way at any time and reject the notion of new and binding House Rules outright.
Signed on behalf of our shared Private Rights and Personal Freedom,
XXXXX0 -
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Write it
Half it
Read it
Half it
Read it
Wait (overnight)
Read it
Then bin or send it.
When halving try to leave out anything that could be picked to be argued with.
Keep It Simple Stupid
Just state facts not opinion0 -
Is this management company a business with employees or is it a group of voluntary local residents?
Will there be elections at the AGM?0 -
I know this issue is probably in the past tense at this stage, however I want to raise an issue, given that people - like me - sometimes review old posts on Boards while seeking information and advice. That said, the idea, given above, that by holding leasehold deeds you are immune from having to comply with the house rules, is far from a given. I know two particular owners management companies comprising of standalone houses, and freehold ownerships, which have, as part of their lease document, obligatory membership of the OMC. With that comes, by necessity, compliance with the House Rules. The MUD Act is the main statutory reference. Always. So, again, I'd say to anyone objecting to the terms implied and rules comprised in the House Rules of your OMC, get in there, join the Board, and change everything from within.
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