Free Travel Pass Holders on peak time public transport

Graces7

Viviana Careful Wildfire wrote: »

Jesus, bit harsh

Hilarious actually!!!!!!!!!!! sad and sick though. Poor lad.

dont bother

xckjoo wrote: »

You sound like great craic. Can you forget Spain and we can go halfers on a gaff? I'm still waiting for my free gaff but don't worry, I'm investing me dole in scratchers every week in case the government try to fob me off with only a 2 bed. If I get the 3 bed though you can have one of the rooms (I already promised one of the rooms to me mate Redzer if he gets off the gear) and you can pay me in Benson & Hedges and tins of Fosters. I get everything else for free off the social but those scumbags expect me to pay for me own ciggies and beer.

haha right, well no i already bought my house here, and am selling it and getting out of this hell hole. bye! enjoy your misery

get a tent for you a redzer. filth.

dont bother

Graces7 wrote: »

Hilarious actually!!!!!!!!!!! sad and sick though. Poor lad.

not as poor as a filthy dole scrounger. i'm glad you got a laugh out of it, instead of looking at yourself and the reasons why you are so adamant to stick up for these filthy cretins who beg for their scraps off the working folk.

anyway, i'm out. if there is one thing worse than the scrounging and dole and ftp and all that, it's trying to actually engage with simpletons who are deluded by the state into feeling sorry for the scum.

good day and good riddance.

facehugger99

dont bother wrote: »

not as poor as a filthy dole scrounger. i'm glad you got a laugh out of it, instead of looking at yourself and the reasons why you are so adamant to stick up for these filthy cretins who beg for their scraps off the working folk.

anyway, i'm out. if there is one thing worse than the scrounging and dole and ftp and all that, it's trying to actually engage with simpletons who are deluded by the state into feeling sorry for the scum.

good day and good riddance.

Well, don't let the door hit your arse on the way out.

Hotblack Desiato

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Well, I’m more interested in the practicalities. The consensus on this thread seems to be that if a FTP holder needs to travel at peak time, it should be free. Otherwise a small charge should be applied. How would this be administered? Unless you think FTP holders should pay a small fee at peak time, no matter the reason they are travelling?

They used to pay the full whack if they wanted to travel at peak time.

It would be quite simple to issue one class of FTP for those with genuine mobility difficulties, OAPs (most of whom are richer than many working people) who qualify just because of age could get an off-peak pass.

witchgirl26

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

They used to pay the full whack if they wanted to travel at peak time.

It would be quite simple to issue one class of FTP for those with genuine mobility difficulties, OAPs (most of whom are richer than many working people) who qualify just because of age could get an off-peak pass.

Since when are most OAP's richer than working people? Most I know are significantly less well off.

MrMusician18

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Well, I’m more interested in the practicalities. The consensus on this thread seems to be that if a FTP holder needs to travel at peak time, it should be free. Otherwise a small charge should be applied. How would this be administered? Unless you think FTP holders should pay a small fee at peak time, no matter the reason they are travelling?

I don't see the harm in say having a nominal 1eur charge for peak local transport and a nominal €5 charge for peak Intercity travel.

If say someone needs to visit hospital regularly for treatment, x number of peak nominal waivers per month could be applied to their FTP.

In a truly integrated public service there would be no reason that a hospital booking couldn't mean that a waiver would be automatically applied to the patients FTP either.

Hotblack Desiato

witchgirl26 wrote: »

Since when are most OAP's richer than working people? Most I know are significantly less well off.

Depends how you define 'well off' I suppose

But I think this would meet the definition for most people:

Asset rich, mortgage free
Annual % increases well above inflation or wage increases (gotta keep that grey vote sweet)
No childcare to pay
No commuting costs
Higher tax free allowances (for those with rental income, private pension etc.) than a working person
FTP (yes!)
Free electricity/gas allowance, isn't the free phone being reinstated?
Over 70s get a medical card regardless of means. Millionaires getting medical cards, something wrong there.


Not too bad a deal. Doubt much of it'll be around when I get to that age though. In the meantime it's great paying top rate PAYE on a modest income and bringing up kids and hoping you or they don't get sick when it's frigging €60 just to see the GP.

If you see a 171 or later car in my area I guarantee you it'll be an OAP driving.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

They used to pay the full whack if they wanted to travel at peak time.

It would be quite simple to issue one class of FTP for those with genuine mobility difficulties, OAPs (most of whom are richer than many working people) who qualify just because of age could get an off-peak pass.

Seems harsh to give somebody an FTP then charge them to travel to appointments related to the whole reason they were given the pass in the first place. I don’t really care about the politics behind why peak time free travel came in, could not find it more tedious if I tried. Sometimes politicking can inadvertently bring in some good changes. I’d object less to a FTP holder paying a small peak time fee for unnecessary journeys but I can’t really see that being applied too often in practice. Will FTPs holders need to show their appointment letters to bus drivers and ticket-sellers?

And where does this curious idea come from that FTPs are related to mobility issues? They are given for serious illnesses as well as disabilities. It’s more to do with the sharp drop in income that comes with having to give up work.

witchgirl26

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Depends how you define 'well off' I suppose

But I think this would meet the definition for most people:

Asset rich, mortgage free
Annual % increases well above inflation or wage increases (gotta keep that grey vote sweet)
No childcare to pay
No commuting costs
Higher tax free allowances (for those with rental income, private pension etc.) than a working person
FTP (yes!)
Free electricity/gas allowance, isn't the free phone being reinstated?
Over 70s get a medical card regardless of means. Millionaires getting medical cards, something wrong there.


Not too bad a deal. Doubt much of it'll be around when I get to that age though. In the meantime it's great paying top rate PAYE on a modest income and bringing up kids and hoping you or they don't get sick when it's frigging €60 just to see the GP.

If you see a 171 or later car in my area I guarantee you it'll be an OAP driving.

i'd refute some of them - asset rich is only worth something if you can realise it. So having a house that is mortgage free is great but you don't get any of the increase until you sell it so means nothing.

The state pension is still quite low and for a lot of older women, that is all they're getting as they didn't work after having a family. So while they may get increases, in real terms, they are still getting quite a small amount.

Where are these higher tax allowances coming from? They pay the same tax as working people (PAYE) on the state pension and are taxed on any private pension also.

It's not free electricity or gas - it's one or the other and it's only a €35 credit a month. During the winter, that gets eaten up quite quickly.

Lol I love you're comment on the 171 cars. My mam is an OAP (under 70 though so can't get her medical card yet) and got a "new to her" car last year. She was able to move up to a 161 but had to borrow from her children to afford it. She had been looking at a slightly older one but we were all more comfortable with her getting a newer one that would be more reliable. Her pensions didn't cover the buying of a new car. Yes she doesn't have a mortgage or childcare (although she never had the latter as she was a stay at home mam) but her income is still quite low and just about does her for day to day and the occasional treat. She's not living some high life.

facehugger99

OAP's are the most politically pandered to group in society because the politicians know they come out to vote in numbers.

They benefited most from the previous boom in terms of house prices and suffered least as their pensions were protect throughout the recession.

They were the demographic most responsible for electing the successive FF-led Governments that bankrupted the country as successive finance ministers bribed them with ever increasing payments and benefits - funded by the hard-pressed working taxpayer of course.

The last 20 years has seen a huge wealth transfer from the younger working age group to the retired senior citizens.

The FTP is nothing more than another political bribe to a demographic that has already taken more of their fair share from the pot.

Riskymove

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Asset rich, mortgage free
Annual % increases well above inflation or wage increases (gotta keep that grey vote sweet)
No childcare to pay
No commuting costs
Higher tax free allowances (for those with rental income, private pension etc.) than a working person
FTP (yes!)
Free electricity/gas allowance, isn't the free phone being reinstated?

There is a lot of fixed thinking in this description

Our society has changed and continues to change

I know people over 65 who still pay rent and don't have a home of their own

I know others who married and had children later in life. They still have a mortgage and children in education

Over 70s get a medical card regardless of means. Millionaires getting medical cards, something wrong there.

That's not correct

If you are 70 or over you qualify for a medical card, if your gross income is:
not more than €500 a week if you are single
not more than €900 a week for a couple

Vic_08

MrMusician18 wrote: »

I don't see the harm in say having a nominal 1eur charge for peak local transport and a nominal €5 charge for peak Intercity travel.

If say someone needs to visit hospital regularly for treatment, x number of peak nominal waivers per month could be applied to their FTP.

In a truly integrated public service there would be no reason that a hospital booking couldn't mean that a waiver would be automatically applied to the patients FTP either.

Hospitals and other HSE departments already have the facility to issue travel warrants that CIE and other transport providers will accept for travel. These are then charged back to HSE.

The Prison service also issue warrants in this manner.

Hotblack Desiato

witchgirl26 wrote: »

i'd refute some of them - asset rich is only worth something if you can realise it.

Nope, you can take out loans against the asset which are paid back after your death. In any case you get to live rent and mortgage free, which is something almost no working age person can do.

The state pension is still quite low

Really? Would you care to name all of the countries where it is higher?

Where are these higher tax allowances coming from?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/tax/income_tax_credits_and_reliefs/older_peoples_tax_credits_and_reliefs.html

It's not free electricity or gas - it's one or the other and it's only a €35 credit a month. During the winter, that gets eaten up quite quickly.

Well boo freaking hoo. If you're working, you get nothing for nothing and pay for everything while being taxed through the hoop for the privilege.

Riskymove wrote: »

That's not correct

My mistake, the income limit for over-70s is two and a half times higher than it is for 66-69 year olds, and almost three times that of under-66s. It's higher than my income is now and I have to support a whole family on that income while paying for all GP bills, medicines, etc.

A few years back in the teeth of the worst recession in living memory, the OAPs had the bloody cheek to have protests to retain medical cards for millionaires. Of course the media like to pretend that everyone over 65 is somehow living on their uppers. Needless to say, they all used their FTPs to attend these protests... :rolleyes:

Riskymove

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

My mistake, the income limit for over-70s is two and a half times higher than it is for 66-69 year olds, and almost three times that of under-66s. It's higher than my income is now and I have to support a whole family on that income while paying for all GP bills, medicines, etc.

have you considered applying?

with a couple of kids the limit is around 300 a week and they also take into account rent/mortgage and childcare as well as some other costs

Zorya

Of course there are well off pensioners but there are plenty like my Ma who drives a banger, depends solely on state pension, frets about getting the money together for her health insurance and only keeps one room warm in the house unless she is expecting visitors. She deserves her ftp.

xckjoo

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Nope, you can take out loans against the asset which are paid back after your death. In any case you get to live rent and mortgage free, which is something almost no working age person can do.

But they're not working age. That's the point. Might as well go after those freeloading kids too.

facehugger99

Zorya wrote: »

Of course there are well off pensioners but there are plenty like my Ma who drives a banger, depends solely on state pension, frets about getting the money together for her health insurance and only keeps one room warm in the house unless she is expecting visitors. She deserves her ftp.

The current taxation/benefits arrangement isn't designed around people like your Ma.

It's designed to harvest as many votes from as many people as possible, which means blanket payment to all regardless of means.

Ironically enough, this results in less money being available for the hard cases which under an alternative model, could be targeted.

Bowlardo

Should there not be more train garages to facilitate the large numbers?
Should all the ftp be in the ftp carriages

Hotblack Desiato

Riskymove wrote: »

have you considered applying?

with a couple of kids the limit is around 300 a week and they also take into account rent/mortgage and childcare as well as some other costs

Did you actually read the part of my post which you quoted? It appears not. I'm nowhere near qualifying because the income limit for me is a third of what it is for them.

The income limit for over-70s is so high that an over-70s couple with more income than me are "poor" enough to qualify. Yet, with less income, I have to provide for a family of four, pay a mortgage, school "voluntary contributions", GP fees etc etc all while being taxed at the higher rate.

Clearly a couple with that amount of money and no mortgage or rent to pay and no kids to provide for are actually quite well off. But FF insisted that we all pay more taxes so they could buy the votes of well off pensioners. It's unfair.

The squeezed middle are fed up with paying for everything and getting nothing.

Hotblack Desiato

Zorya wrote: »

Of course there are well off pensioners but there are plenty like my Ma who drives a banger, depends solely on state pension, frets about getting the money together for her health insurance and only keeps one room warm in the house unless she is expecting visitors. She deserves her ftp.

She has a car, she doesn't need a free pass.

Also there's a big difference between not having enough money and being too mean to spend it. Plenty of OAPs fall into the latter bracket and are great at putting on the poor mouth, but they're actually minted.

iamwhoiam

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

She has a car, she doesn't need a free pass.

Also there's a big difference between not having enough money and being too mean to spend it. Plenty of OAPs fall into the latter bracket and are great at putting on the poor mouth, but they're actually minted.

So name them , how many , any proof for that statement? .Then I could make up anything and post it here .

witchgirl26

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Nope, you can take out loans against the asset which are paid back after your death. In any case you get to live rent and mortgage free, which is something almost no working age person can do.

What loans are these? Mortgages? Good luck getting a mortgage even for repairs if you are over the age of 60! And if you're talking about the fair deal scheme, it's not like you can use that money for whatever you like - that's solely for nursing home care.

Other loans such as equity release have often got quite bad terms and can impact on family members after the death in terms of having to sell the house to realise (even if one wanted to keep it) and most people shouldn't touch them with a barge pole.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Really? Would you care to name all of the countries where it is higher?



http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/tax/income_tax_credits_and_reliefs/older_peoples_tax_credits_and_reliefs.html

I didn't mean lower than other countries but rather lower than most working individuals.

So based on that older people can get up to €18k as a single person or €36k as a couple a year before they have to pay PAYE on it. Hardly massive amounts. And they don't get charged DIRT. Apologies I'd forgotten the aged tax credit but €490 a year max for a couple is hardly a massive amount. :rolleyes:

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Well boo freaking hoo. If you're working, you get nothing for nothing and pay for everything while being taxed through the hoop for the privilege.

You do know that most of the OAP's had to work and worked through a much tougher recession with higher mortgage interest rates and taxes than we all pay now. Get over yourself. We're not taxed through the hoop. Pay over 10% mortgage interest while paying between 20% and 65% tax on income (rates that were around in the 80's) and then tell me we're now taxed through the hoop.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

A few years back in the teeth of the worst recession in living memory, the OAPs had the bloody cheek to have protests to retain medical cards for millionaires. Of course the media like to pretend that everyone over 65 is somehow living on their uppers. Needless to say, they all used their FTPs to attend these protests... :rolleyes:

It wasn't the worst recession in living memory. Most economists will still say that the 80's recession was a lot worse. And you've already been shown the millionaire OAPs don't qualify for the medical card so down off the high horse, yeah?

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

She has a car, she doesn't need a free pass.

Also there's a big difference between not having enough money and being too mean to spend it. Plenty of OAPs fall into the latter bracket and are great at putting on the poor mouth, but they're actually minted.

Oh come on! Most OAPs are not sitting on mountains of cash rubbing their hands in glee! You have some bad opinion of people over 65 in this country. God help you when you become one.

Zorya

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

She has a car, she doesn't need a free pass.

Also there's a big difference between not having enough money and being too mean to spend it. Plenty of OAPs fall into the latter bracket and are great at putting on the poor mouth, but they're actually minted.

You are verging on unreasonable and insulting. She has a car for local travel but at her age driving to Dublin for hospital appointments or to distant parts of the country is uncomfortable. She is not mean, quite the opposite. The real recession in the 80s wiped out their life time savings and my fathers ill health took the rest.

I'm not engaging with you anymore. I doubt your resentment of minted pensioners can be alleviated. My commiserations to you for your emotional burden

iamwhoiam

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Did you actually read the part of my post which you quoted? It appears not. I'm nowhere near qualifying because the income limit for me is a third of what it is for them.

The income limit for over-70s is so high that an over-70s couple with more income than me are "poor" enough to qualify. Yet, with less income, I have to provide for a family of four, pay a mortgage, school "voluntary contributions", GP fees etc etc all while being taxed at the higher rate.

Clearly a couple with that amount of money and no mortgage or rent to pay and no kids to provide for are actually quite well off. But FF insisted that we all pay more taxes so they could buy the votes of well off pensioners. It's unfair.

The squeezed middle are fed up with paying for everything and getting nothing.

THe OAPs now were the squeezed middle once .We paid huge interest rate and taxes , watched our families scrimp and supported our parents .So boo dee hoo if you begrudge me a bit of a free LUAS spin now and then .

AndrewJRenko

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Well, I’m more interested in the practicalities. The consensus on this thread seems to be that if a FTP holder needs to travel at peak time, it should be free. Otherwise a small charge should be applied. How would this be administered? Unless you think FTP holders should pay a small fee at peak time, no matter the reason they are travelling?

In a truly integrated public service there would be no reason that a hospital booking couldn't mean that a waiver would be automatically applied to the patients FTP either.

The cost of integrating transport and health systems would exceed the income from the nominal fees.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

They used to pay the full whack if they wanted to travel at peak time.

There seems to be no great appetite to return to that. Just because it used to be done that way, doesn’t mean it was right.

It would be quite simple to issue one class of FTP for those with genuine mobility difficulties, OAPs (most of whom are richer than many working people) who qualify just because of age could get an off-peak pass.

I remain bemused by people continually seeming to think you only get a FTP outside of retirement if you have mobilities issues. They are for serious chronic or terminal illnesses too. Those chronic or terminal people might not have apparent mobility issues and actually we don’t always expect to be given a seat either. We don’t always need one. The pass is given to us because our illnesses have forced many of us to give up work and many of us have seen our income drop sharply. Do you really want to see FTP holders charged full whack to attend their hospital appointment when they could be experiencing such straitened circumstances? I mean, you seem enamoured with the way it used to be which, according to you, included this scenario.

I became ill in my 20s, by the way. Not much time to build up savings. I had no nice pillow when I was diagnosed. I want to scream into a pillow in despair when I read about the things people whinge about and resent.

end of the road

Emme wrote: »

I have just got on the train. I pay over €3K a year for the privilege of travelling to work and €250 a year for parking. I am forced to commute by train because there are no viable alternatives. Driving is out because it would take 2 hours or more each way on the N7. There are no buses that go from my area. I cannot afford to live any closer to work. There are thousands of people in my position.

Eveey morning a good proportion of the seats are taken up by what look like free travel pass holders. Sometimes people like myself (paying commuters) have to stand because of this. From Athy on more people have to stand. Meanwhile the FTP holders who got on in Waterford or Kilkenny bask in comfort.

I understand some of them have to go to hospital appointments which is fair enough. But the gaggle of 8 mature women talking loudly about their shopping trip could have got a later train. They will probably get a peak time train home in the evening as will many of the other FTP holders. They always seem to get to the train first in the evenings while people who rush to the train from work often have to stand.

When you are tired and burnt out you can get angry and resentful. Angry and resentful of getting nothing for your taxes and paying a huge chunk of your salary to commute (often standing each way) while those who pay nothing get the seats.

I agree that some of these people worked hard and paid high taxes in their time but not as many of them were forced to do long commutes. They didn't have to work under the same pressure as people do now. Many of the women could be full time mums while many commuting women do not have this choice. Many of the FTP holders are in better health and more energetic than exhausted commuters. Yet we will have to work far longer than they did. Because of their energy they are able to protest if the government takes away their full time FTPs. There was a time it was for off peak travel only.

Meanwhile commuters are getting screwed in every way but are too exhausted to do anything.

The FTP should be for off peak travel only. If the government wants to give it to pensioners full time it should be means tested. If some of them can afford to shop in BTs they can surely afford the price of a train ticket.

Many will disagree with me. But I am tired of paying so much and getting nothing in return.

people who get on earlier get the seats. if the seats are full, those who get on later may not have access to them unless someone gets off a bit earlier. unfortunately, that is the nature of rail travel over the world at rush hour. a seat for everyone isn't possible to guarantee. as you said yourself, the people "look" like they may be ftp holders, the reality is you don't know, because an ftp holder doesn't have a specific look.
the train is for everyone, not just for workers. the more people traveling by train, whatever the reason, the better, as it means less people on the roads for those who genuinely have no option but to use the roads. the reality is you are paying to travel on the service when you buy a ticket.
the ftp being for off peak travel, or means testing it, won't make any difference in terms of potentially having to stand at rush hour. what if other workers always get to the seats before you and the seats are full all the time before you get there? are you then going to complain about other workers and call for restrictions on them using the train at rush hour so you can supposibly get a seat? what if you still don't get a seat?
you are paying so much and getting a service in return. it's far from perfect, but to state you are getting nothing in return is factually wrong, as your ticket goes toards paying for the service.
none of us like having to stand, but it's a fact of life on rush hour train travel. certainly more carriges could and should be procured and put on, but a seat for everyone will in all likelyhood never be achieved.

troyzer wrote: »

You don't need to be in Dublin nine in the morning, people who work do. Unless you have a medical appointment of course, in which case it should be free.

according to? ultimately, it's not up to you whether someone needs to be somewhere or not, it's the person themselves who will know, and who it will be up to, as to whether they need to be somewhere or not.
if someone not working is in dublin at 9 am, then they need to be there because of their own personal reasons.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Strangely enough, we all seemed to rub along well enough less than 20 years ago, before that idiot Seamus Brennan decided to pull a stroke before an election and make the off-peak travel passes usable at any time, in order to grab some OAP votes for FF.

perhapse we rubbed along well because there was less frequent services, and a lot less users over all. the services that ran were busy, but over all usage wasn't like now. realistically, the removal of the peak time restriction had little to no effect. it was necessary because the restriction actually solved nothing.

MrMusician18 wrote: »

I don't see the harm in say having a nominal 1eur charge for peak local transport and a nominal €5 charge for peak Intercity travel.

If say someone needs to visit hospital regularly for treatment, x number of peak nominal waivers per month could be applied to their FTP.

In a truly integrated public service there would be no reason that a hospital booking couldn't mean that a waiver would be automatically applied to the patients FTP either.

but why bother. it would likely cost more money to administer then it would bring in . the op may still not be able to get a seat either.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

She has a car, she doesn't need a free pass.

Also there's a big difference between not having enough money and being too mean to spend it. Plenty of OAPs fall into the latter bracket and are great at putting on the poor mouth, but they're actually minted.

Zorya wrote: »

You are verging on unreasonable and insulting. She has a car for local travel but at her age driving to Dublin for hospital appointments or to distant parts of the country is uncomfortable. She is not mean, quite the opposite. The real recession in the 80s wiped out their life time savings and my fathers ill health took the rest.

I'm not engaging with you anymore. I doubt your resentment of minted pensioners can be alleviated. My commiserations to you for your emotional burden

+1. Such mean-spiritedness. There’s no point trying to change the mind of somebody with such evidently entrenched resentments.

Hotblack Desiato

witchgirl26 wrote: »

Other loans such as equity release have often got quite bad terms and can impact on family members after the death in terms of having to sell the house to realise (even if one wanted to keep it) and most people shouldn't touch them with a barge pole.

Well of course they impact on the inheritance. You can't have your cake and eat it.

I didn't mean lower than other countries but rather lower than most working individuals.

Almost all working individuals have rent/mortgage to pay though, and many have kids to provide for, all while paying more tax and getting only a pittance of child benefit from the state.

You do know that most of the OAP's had to work and worked through a much tougher recession with higher mortgage interest rates and taxes than we all pay now. Get over yourself.

Yes we keep being told that :rolleyes: actually the 80s was not that difficult except for those who lost their jobs. Houses were cheap, the ratio of mortgates (and rents) to income was less than it is now even given the higher interest rates.

We're not taxed through the hoop.

All I can say to that is :rolleyes:

Pay over 10% mortgage interest while paying between 20% and 65% tax on income (rates that were around in the 80's) and then tell me we're now taxed through the hoop.

Mortgage interest is not tax. High interest rates were the downside of having a depreciating pound (which was good for exporters, but not good for workers)

Yes the headline rate was 65% but a family got full double tax allowances even if only one of them was working. The state was absolutely on the verge of bankruptcy in the 80s (thanks to, guess who, FF) so of course taxes were high. The headline rate of tax looks a lot lower now but there are lots of other taxes like USC which didn't exist then. Property tax, bin charges which you didn't have to pay in the 80s.

Oh come on! Most OAPs are not sitting on mountains of cash rubbing their hands in glee! You have some bad opinion of people over 65 in this country. God help you when you become one.

God help me is right, the current generation of pensioners have rode this country dry and no generation following will get what they have now.

Riskymove

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Did you actually read the part of my post which you quoted? It appears not. I'm nowhere near qualifying because the income limit for me is a third of what it is for them.

I did read it, perhaps you didn't consider my response.

it is not just the income limit to see if you qualify when under 66

they also take into consideration rent/mortgage, childcare, insurance and other costs, even public transport and parking costs

the limit is also based on salary after tax not gross.

witchgirl26

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Well of course they impact on the inheritance. You can't have your cake and eat it.

Right but they don't have to deal with that if it's after they die so why aren't there more doing it? Maybe because it's not as straightforward as you seem to think at all.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Almost all working individuals have rent/mortgage to pay though, and many have kids to provide for, all while paying more tax and getting only a pittance of child benefit from the state.

Yes we do. But then so did those OAP's before they became OAP's. You do know that OAP's don't just appear in the world, the workers become them when they reach a certain age.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Yes we keep being told that :rolleyes: actually the 80s was not that difficult except for those who lost their jobs. Houses were cheap, the ratio of mortgates (and rents) to income was less than it is now even given the higher interest rates.

The 80's wasn't that difficult. Did you completely ignore the part where mortgage interest rates were over 10% and tax was way more than now. Plus wages were lower comparatively, jobs weren't that plentiful, there was mass emigration and yes houses were cheaper but that is in comparison to now and not in comparison to incomes at the time.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

All I can say to that is :rolleyes:

We're not. 20% lower tax and 40% higher rate is not being taxed through the hoop. Tax rates at increments between 25% and 65% is being taxed through the hoop. Look I'm not a fan of being taxed and handing over so much but at the same time, I recognise it for what it is.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Mortgage interest is not tax. High interest rates were the downside of having a depreciating pound (which was good for exporters, but not good for workers)

Yes the headline rate was 65% but a family got full double tax allowances even if only one of them was working. The state was absolutely on the verge of bankruptcy in the 80s (thanks to, guess who, FF) so of course taxes were high. The headline rate of tax looks a lot lower now but there are lots of other taxes like USC which didn't exist then. Property tax, bin charges which you didn't have to pay in the 80s.

Mortgage interest isn't tax but it does impact hugely on your disposable income. How would you fair on your wage with a 58% tax rate and the mortgage interest rate just even doubling what it is now? Not great I'd gather. The 80's had pretty much triple what we're paying.

You do know the same happens now - if only one is working, they can get the other partners tax credits. So not much difference there. USC didn't exist then but it doesn't bring us near the rates of the 80's at all. Property tax was around in the 80's actually and up until the mid-90's but it was calculated differently and a lot of people had to pay bin charges if they didn't live in big cities. In fact I've family who had no sympathy for us when bin charges were brought in in Dublin as they had been paying them for decades before.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

God help me is right, the current generation of pensioners have rode this country dry and no generation following will get what they have now.

Lol would you get over yourself! They have not. The majority are just the same as we are now - they were working away trying to do the best for themselves and their families. Do you hold your own parents responsible or just other people's out of interest?

What has wrecked this country was the sheer greed and me fein-ism that happened during the Celtic Tiger and for the most part the people responsible for that are the ones in their 40's and 50's now who got massive mortgages they could barely afford at the time and 100% mortgages.

Hotblack Desiato

iamwhoiam wrote: »

One thing this OAP learned over the years was to know a troll when I see one

Instead of throwing accusations of trolling around, perhaps you would address this - if you can?

The income limit for over-70s is so high that an over-70s couple with more income than me are "poor" enough to qualify. Yet, with less income, I have to provide for a family of four, pay a mortgage, school "voluntary contributions", GP fees etc etc all while being taxed at the higher rate.

Clearly a couple with that amount of money and no mortgage or rent to pay and no kids to provide for are actually quite well off.

No wonder people are having fewer kids. You know, the taxpayers of the future needed to pay for the pensioners of the future. Most people with kids are just about getting by and many have little or nothing in the way of disposable income. Yet they get almost nothing from the state and have to pay for things like school "voluntary" contributions because the state doesn't bother to fund schools enough.

We should cut back on the benefits we provide to those pensioners which are, by any standard, quite well off. Families need the help more.

Hotblack Desiato

witchgirl26 wrote: »

Right but they don't have to deal with that if it's after they die so why aren't there more doing it?

Many possible reasons - ignorance, backlash from disinherited relatives, or maybe they don't actually need the money because they're doing quite well?

The 80's wasn't that difficult. Did you completely ignore the part where mortgage interest rates were over 10% and tax was way more than now.

No it's in the part of my post you quoted. Mortgage interest rates were high, but the mortgages themselves were much smaller.

The ratio of house prices and rents to incomes today is way out of whack and higher than it's ever been. I.E. housing is less affordable today.

You do know the same happens now - if only one is working, they can get the other partners tax credits.

Only part of it. It used to be that the spouse who was working got double the allowances and bands of a single person.

AlekSmart

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Seen a few of them alright, all elderly people who should be allowed to travel where and when they want.

It is worth noting,that of the 902,000 FTP holders,less than 50% are of Pensionable Age,which leaves c.450,000 who are from the various other classifications now entitled to membership of the FT Scheme.

The format of the 2017 statistical bulletin has been altered somewhat to make it more difficult to break down the categories of DSP Entitlement carrying the FTP but the 2016 figures are illuminating it themselves....

https://www.welfare.ie/en/pdf/DEASP_Annual_Statistics_Report_2016.pdf

Table G7 on Page 67 reveals that State Contributory Pension Recipients account for 328,962 FTP Holders.
Non Contributory Pension 94,969 FTP holders.
Invalidity Pension 54,220 FTP Holders
Disability Allowance,124,242 FTP Holders.
With perhaps the most interesting group,now referred to as having "No Active Pension" consisting of 100,588 FTP holders.
Oh and,as ever there are the "Others" consisting of 9,099 FTP Holders.

Irrespective of the usage level of the individual FTS Passes,the bare numbers do prove the fact that the Free Travel Scheme can no longer be accurately describes as the OAP Pass or specific to that group,as they are now actually in a minority of FTP holders.

alexmalalex

https://media.giphy.com/media/VcWnY3R6YWVtC/giphy.gif

Spleerbun

For the people arguing about how tough pensioners have it, my god just wait until the next generation(s) reach that age. Then you'll see what tough really is. The coffers are bone dry folks!

Hotblack Desiato

AlekSmart wrote: »

It is worth noting,that of the 902,000 FTP holders

That's a shockingly high number.

Half of this country is living off the back of the other half.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xmckWVPRaI

andekwarhola

Admit I didn't read the whole thread, but did we solve the mystery of why there appears to be mass movement of unemployed people from Carlow to Dublin early every morning?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

That's a shockingly high number.

Half of this country is living off the back of the other half.

Ireland’s population is under 2,000,000?

If you’re just talking about the workers, well, pensioners worked too, most of them. Many of the men anyway and brought their children up in single-income families. And women that didn’t work might not be very asset-rich. I can’t get over the pettiness.

I mean, would you be happy if somebody asked you why you had four children that, according to you, you’re finding it hard to afford? No, that would an arseholish thing to ask. But you’re casting judgement of the lifestyles of a whole cohort of people and that is equally as arseholish.

Sir Oxman

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So on top of the existing substantial extra costs of living with a disability of up to €10k a year, you now want those people to pay more to travel to/from work, just to make other commuters feel a bit better?


https://www.rte.ie/eile/brainstorm/2017/1129/923751-the-hidden-cost-of-disability/


On the broader issue, one advantage of the new digital cards is that at least the travel companies should be able to track usage, and should have some decent data about how often/frequently those who use the pass are travelling.

I think it's fair for some part payment during peak hours.
It's not beyond the wit of those in power to use the PSC card/updated PSC card with an onboard scanner that could show date and time of say hospital appointment for those FTP users that need to travel during peak

AndrewJRenko

Sir Oxman wrote: »

I think it's fair for some part payment during peak hours.
It's not beyond the wit of those in power to use the PSC card/updated PSC card with an onboard scanner that could show date and time of say hospital appointment for those FTP users that need to travel during peak

See earlier responses



https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108701371&postcount=327


https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108701491&postcount=329



Have any any idea what would be involved in integrating hospital systems in every hospital and outpatient service in the country with the FTP cards?

Sir Oxman

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

See earlier responses



https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108701371&postcount=327


https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108701491&postcount=329



Have any any idea what would be involved in integrating hospital systems in every hospital and outpatient service in the country with the FTP cards?

No idea, why don't you tell me?

Broxi_Bear_Eire

Emme wrote: »

I have just got on the train. I pay over €3K a year for the privilege of travelling to work and €250 a year for parking. I am forced to commute by train because there are no viable alternatives. Driving is out because it would take 2 hours or more each way on the N7. There are no buses that go from my area. I cannot afford to live any closer to work. There are thousands of people in my position.

Eveey morning a good proportion of the seats are taken up by what look like free travel pass holders. Sometimes people like myself (paying commuters) have to stand because of this. From Athy on more people have to stand. Meanwhile the FTP holders who got on in Waterford or Kilkenny bask in comfort.

I understand some of them have to go to hospital appointments which is fair enough. But the gaggle of 8 mature women talking loudly about their shopping trip could have got a later train. They will probably get a peak time train home in the evening as will many of the other FTP holders. They always seem to get to the train first in the evenings while people who rush to the train from work often have to stand.

When you are tired and burnt out you can get angry and resentful. Angry and resentful of getting nothing for your taxes and paying a huge chunk of your salary to commute (often standing each way) while those who pay nothing get the seats.

I agree that some of these people worked hard and paid high taxes in their time but not as many of them were forced to do long commutes. They didn't have to work under the same pressure as people do now. Many of the women could be full time mums while many commuting women do not have this choice. Many of the FTP holders are in better health and more energetic than exhausted commuters. Yet we will have to work far longer than they did. Because of their energy they are able to protest if the government takes away their full time FTPs. There was a time it was for off peak travel only.

Meanwhile commuters are getting screwed in every way but are too exhausted to do anything.

The FTP should be for off peak travel only. If the government wants to give it to pensioners full time it should be means tested. If some of them can afford to shop in BTs they can surely afford the price of a train ticket.

Many will disagree with me. But I am tired of paying so much and getting nothing in return.

So I am disabled and have to travel to Dublin for treatment in a regular basis I live in Donegal. Tell me ho I manage this if only traveling at off peak. Paid all my contributions all my working life and now I need some help O should not get it because you begrudge me aye very good

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Sir Oxman wrote: »

I think it's fair for some part payment during peak hours.
It's not beyond the wit of those in power to use the PSC card/updated PSC card with an onboard scanner that could show date and time of say hospital appointment for those FTP users that need to travel during peak

The cost of administering and maintaining that system would probably outweigh the money made from it. It sounds incredibly complicated. Unless you think it might more act as a deterrent to travelling and you aren’t that fussed about the cost, more thinking it might make more space for rush hour commuters? In that case, fair enough.

But how many seats would it really free up? This seems to be the OP’s main gripe. Most people avoid travelling at peak times if at all possible, FTP holder or not. Who wants to be on crowded public transport when they don’t need to be? I’m an FTP holder and, believe me, I won’t get on rush hour public transport unless I absolutely have to.

I just don’t think a small charge would make the difference the OP hopes it would. Who to blame then?

AndrewJRenko

Sir Oxman wrote: »

No idea, why don't you tell me?

Maybe you should have got yourself some idea before you proposed the idea?

Sir Oxman

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

The cost of administering and maintaining that system would probably outweigh the money made from it. It sounds incredibly complicated. Unless you think it might more act as a deterrent to travelling and you aren’t that fussed about the cost, more thinking it might make more space for rush hour commuters? In that case, fair enough.

But how many seats would it really free up? This seems to be the OP’s main gripe. Most people avoid travelling at peak times if at all possible, FTP holder or not. Who wants to be on crowded public transport when they don’t need to be? I’m an FTP holder and, believe me, I won’t get on rush hour public transport unless I absolutely have to.

I just don’t think a small charge would make the difference the OP hopes it would. Who to blame then?

I have no problem with FTP scheme but I do believe that during peak hours there should be at least some small contribution paid - what % I don't know as I don't have the data etc but I see that over 900k people hold a pass and that's a lot of people. And no, I don't believe everyone of them is on buses and trains during peak

I believe in an integrated system for all public services (transport/social protection/hospitals etc) and that's what the PSC is ostensibly in existence for so I am assuming there is some infrastructure in place so full integration can occur at some time.

The money "saved" by charging a nominal fee to those not disabled and working or on their way to peaktime hospital appts might possibly reduce future inevitable fare increases to already hardpressed non free pass users for example.

I believe no matter how small, everyone should contribute something.

Everything is so basic and flat across the board in Ireland in respect to social protection - for instance JSB - you may work 30 years and find yourself out of your job and you receive a flat rate of 198e the same or less than the famous "scroungers" that light up every thread on AH.

Sir Oxman

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Maybe you should have got yourself some idea before you proposed the idea?

Hold your horses there sunshine, you're the one who is telling everyone it would be a colossal sum of money.
I think it's up to you to come up with a figure
See my other post - PSC is in existence and from that hould come full integration of public services.

batgoat

Sir Oxman wrote: »

I have no problem with FTP scheme but I do believe that during peak hours there should be at least some small contribution paid - what % I don't know as I don't have the data etc but I see that over 900k people hold a pass and that's a lot of people. And no, I don't believe everyone of them is on buses and trains during peak

I believe in an integrated system for all public services (transport/social protection/hospitals etc) and that's what the PSC is ostensibly in existence for so I am assuming there is some infrastructure in place so full integration can occur at some time.

The money "saved" by charging a nominal fee to those not disabled and working or on their way to peaktime hospital appts might possibly reduce future inevitable fare increases to already hardpressed non free pass users for example.

I believe no matter how small, everyone should contribute something.

Everything is so basic and flat across the board in Ireland in respect to social protection - for instance JSB - you may work 30 years and find yourself out of your job and you receive a flat rate of 198e the same or less than the famous "scroungers" that light up every thread on AH.

As a person who has done lots of travel on public transport during peak hours, I've never reached a point where I'm annoyed at pensioners enjoying free travel during their retirement... It is none of your business if they're enjoying themselves or going for a medical appointment.

Your post reeks of choosing a random group to blame all your travel woes on.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

batgoat wrote: »

As a person who has done lots of travel on public transport during peak hours, I've never reached a point where I'm annoyed at pensioners enjoying free travel during their retirement... It is none of your business if they're enjoying themselves or going for a medical appointment.

Your post reeks of choosing a random group to blame all your travel woes on.

The OP too. I hate scapegoating. It solves precisely nothing.

And, yeah, when I was in full health, the (small number) of pensioners I saw on rush hour transport never bothered me.