Free Travel Pass Holders on peak time public transport

AndrewJRenko

Sir Oxman wrote: »

Hold your horses there sunshine, you're the one who is telling everyone it would be a colossal sum of money.
I think it's up to you to come up with a figure
See my other post - PSC is in existence and from that hould come full integration of public services.

You think wrong. Again.


There are existing IT programmes in place for eHealth in the HSE and the PSC card roll-out. Neither of these programmes include your great plan to give credit for hospital appointments on the FTP card.



In fact, there is no facility to give credit for anything on the FTP card. It's not a wallet, like the Leap card. It is a pass, that entitles the holder to travel on all services at all times. So any plans to restrict the pass would require major chances, and plans to convert the pass card to a wallet to store and use specific permits for specific services at specific locations at specific times and dates would be a major change to the current system.


And that's before you even start looking at the health service, the number of different hospitals and outpatient services, all with their own separate booking systems, and some with no computerised booking - just a paper diary.



Are you really suggesting that the current programmes for PSC and eHealth should be thrown out the window to build a facility to RESTRICT public services for ill people, just to make you feel a bit better?

Sir Oxman

batgoat wrote: »

As a person who has done lots of travel on public transport during peak hours, I've never reached a point where I'm annoyed at pensioners enjoying free travel during their retirement... It is none of your business if they're enjoying themselves or going for a medical appointment.

Your post reeks of choosing a random group to blame all your travel woes on.

You are certainly jumping to the wrong conclusion there.

Now, how much will a fully integrated system cost?

Sir Oxman

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

The OP too. I hate scapegoating. It solves precisely nothing.

And, yeah, when I was in full health, the (small number) of pensioners I saw on rush hour transport never bothered me.

Another one with less than full comprehension.
Who am I scapegoating by proposing a small fee in peak travel hours with exclusions within a fully integrated system?

ShadyAcres

"Eveey morning a good proportion of the seats are taken up by what look like free travel pass holders"

I got as far as here.

Sir Oxman

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You think wrong. Again.


There are existing IT programmes in place for eHealth in the HSE and the PSC card roll-out. Neither of these programmes include your great plan to give credit for hospital appointments on the FTP card.



In fact, there is no facility to give credit for anything on the FTP card. It's not a wallet, like the Leap card. It is a pass, that entitles the holder to travel on all services at all times. So any plans to restrict the pass would require major chances, and plans to convert the pass card to a wallet to store and use specific permits for specific services at specific locations at specific times and dates would be a major change to the current system.


And that's before you even start looking at the health service, the number of different hospitals and outpatient services, all with their own separate booking systems, and some with no computerised booking - just a paper diary.



Are you really suggesting that the current programmes for PSC and eHealth should be thrown out the window to build a facility to RESTRICT public services for ill people, just to make you feel a bit better?

BiB - No, I'm not.

I'm asking and wondering if a fully integrated public services system would be beneficial overall - pulling all public services together not because you have some lunatic idea I want to punish OAPs and disabled/sick people.

The PSC card (including entitlement to free travel) is the start, why couldn't it eventually tie up with other public services as that is the reason behind it.

And less of the hyperbole and clutching of your pearls - I couldn't give a flying fck how many OAPs etc are on buses and trains

Hotblack Desiato

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Ireland’s population is under 2,000,000?

FTPs aren't the only welfare abuse going on.

I mean, would you be happy if somebody asked you why you had four children that, according to you, you’re finding it hard to afford? No, that would an arseholish thing to ask. But you’re casting judgement of the lifestyles of a whole cohort of people and that is equally as arseholish.

That's a completely moronic rant.

I don't have four kids, I work for a living so I can only afford to have two.

I have to pay all the bills for my own family, while supporting countless feckless others who live off my back.

Goldengirl

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Goldengirl

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smilerf

Hold on there now and I will just tell my neurologist I can only see him at off peak hours because your not happy

Goldengirl

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Subcomandante Marcos

Sir Oxman wrote: »

I have no problem with FTP scheme but I do believe that during peak hours there should be at least some small contribution paid

Why? to appease morons like the OP?

People with FTP often have no choice but to travel on peak to attend hospital or other appointments, day centres, and even jobs or return to work schemes which are provided for them.

Why would you create a system that disincentivizes these people from attend hopsital or other appointments or from taking up jobs, schemes or training/education courses which will benefit them?

It's idiocy driven by pure irgnorance.

Goldengirl

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AndrewJRenko

Sir Oxman wrote: »

BiB - No, I'm not.

I'm asking and wondering if a fully integrated public services system would be beneficial overall - pulling all public services together not because you have some lunatic idea I want to punish OAPs and disabled/sick people.

The PSC card (including entitlement to free travel) is the start, why couldn't it eventually tie up with other public services as that is the reason behind it.

And less of the hyperbole and clutching of your pearls - I couldn't give a flying fck how many OAPs etc are on buses and trains

Please go do some research on the expansion plans for the PSC and we can continue the discussion when you have some clue about what is involved.

As it stands, you are expecting teams of people to throw out their existing 5 year plan because some random bloke on the Internet came up with a random idea on how to restrict public services, with no clear business case or benefit arising.

Sir Oxman

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Please go do some research on the expansion plans for the PSC and we can continue the discussion when you have some clue about what is involved.

As it stands, you are expecting teams of people to throw out their existing 5 year plan because some random bloke on the Internet came up with a random idea on how to restrict public services, with no clear business case or benefit arising.

You are very hyperbolic, throwing out untrue accusations without a bother and in your head assuming the infrastructure plan for the PSC card or anything ever will be influenced by anything said in After Hours on boards.ie

You don't want discussion and debate - you do like the sound of your own gripes though.

Maybe you'll qualify for a FTP due to that complex of yours.

Sir Oxman

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Why? to appease morons like the OP?

People with FTP often have no choice but to travel on peak to attend hospital or other appointments, day centres, and even jobs or return to work schemes which are provided for them.

Why would you create a system that disincentivizes these people from attend hopsital or other appointments or from taking up jobs, schemes or training/education courses which will benefit them?

It's idiocy driven by pure irgnorance.

Why a small %age of the fare at peak rush hour?
Because I believe everyone should contribute no matter how small for a service.
Nothing should be entirely free IMO
Why not?

facehugger99

It would be very easy to stop abuses of the current system by OAP's and shut up the bleeding heart brigade.

Stop giving blanked FTP's to every OAP in the country.

Maybe give them an off-peak pass. If people are in need of a on-peak FTP for medical reasons, let them apply for one.

Not that any politician would actually propose something that would benefit working taxpayers at the expense of votes.

batgoat

Sir Oxman wrote: »

Why a small %age of the fare at peak rush hour?
Because I believe everyone should contribute no matter how small for a service.
Nothing should be entirely free IMO
Why not?

Those with the pass generally have contributed over the course of their lives... It's one of the small benefits they gain in their later years.

Sir Oxman

batgoat wrote: »

Those with the pass generally have contributed over the course of their lives... It's one of the small benefits they gain in their later years.

Well that's the end of that then

batgoat

Sir Oxman wrote: »

Well that's the end of that then

Pretty much, petty attacks over the elderly getting free travel in their later years is nasty. Demanding that they should be able to demonstrate a medical need to travel freely at peak times is that bit more dictatorial..

First Up

Is the scheme being abused? I don't see m/any OAPs on my commute.

It should be easy enough to produce the figures so that facts could be included in the debate, although I realise that would spoil it for some.

Sir Oxman

batgoat wrote: »

Pretty much, petty attacks over the elderly getting free travel in their later years is nasty. Demanding that they should be able to demonstrate a medical need to travel freely at peak times is that bit more dictatorial..

But I didn't suggest that - I said at sometime in the future maybe the PSC card which is used for FT now could be part of a wholly integrated public service.

And what is wrong with suggesting all FTP holders pay a small percentage during peak hours?

Knine

batgoat wrote: »

Pretty much, petty attacks over the elderly getting free travel in their later years is nasty. Demanding that they should be able to demonstrate a medical need to travel freely at peak times is that bit more dictatorial..

+100%

Family Carers also get this pass. Maybe they should only be allowed go to appointments etc at certain times of the day too

Sir Oxman. Do you know how much Carers get paid for caring 24/7? Do you also know how much money they save the state? So you tell me what is wrong with them having to pay a small percentage from the very small percentage they get paid?

Sir Oxman

First Up wrote: »

Is the scheme being abused? I don't see m/any OAPs on my commute.

It should be easy enough to produce the figures so that facts could be included in the debate, although I realise that would spoil it for some.

One set of overall FTP user stats was produced which was interesting.
If anyone has the time to go hunting for more they'd be appreciated.
Maybe that could be another use of the PSC FTP card - proper stats.
I mean that's how a public transport system should be based on, the ebb and flow of commutes

devondudley

i live in a small town 30 mins from a city, to go out for a few pints i often get the bus for a few Sunday sessions. last week out of 12 that got on the bus im the only one who paid. i know this i was first on and sat up the front we dont have leap card as not in the area. ive lost count of the number of times one or two at max people have paid while rest use the pass.

im not too bothered by whos entitled to it or not but it always gets me wondering with the free travel how people give out about the quality and price of the service of both trains and buses when for example im the only one of 12 paying so im the only income bus eireann got from that route.

Sir Oxman

Knine wrote: »

+100%

Family Carers also get this pass. Maybe they should only be allowed go to appointments etc at certain times of the day too

Sir Oxman. Do you know how much Carers get paid for caring 24/7? Do you also know how much money they save the state? So you tell me what is wrong with them having to pay a small percentage from the very small percentage they get paid?

It is a suggestion, that is all.
I believe everyone should make some monetary contribution to a service (in this instance peak rush hour)
Whether that is a doable or not, I don't know.
Is it fair, I believe so.

facehugger99

devondudley wrote: »

im not too bothered by whos entitled to it or not but it always gets me wondering with the free travel how people give out about the quality and price of the service of both trains and buses when for example im the only one of 12 paying so im the only income bus eireann got from that route.

Every taxpayer in the Country is subsidising it through a PSO.

There's noting free about the FTP's - it just means others are picking up the tab.

First Up

devondudley wrote: »

i live in a small town 30 mins from a city, to go out for a few pints i often get the bus for a few Sunday sessions. last week out of 12 that got on the bus im the only one who paid. i know this i was first on and sat up the front we dont have leap card as not in the area. ive lost count of the number of times one or two at max people have paid while rest use the pass.

im not too bothered by whos entitled to it or not but it always gets me wondering with the free travel how people give out about the quality and price of the service of both trains and buses when for example im the only one of 12 paying so im the only income bus eireann got from that route.

Thats a different point; the complaint was about FTP users stopping people getting to work.

But we also hear stories of OAPs trapped in their houses because they can't drive to the pub for their few pints. It sounds like the FTP is working as a social service on your route.

Garibaldi?

The travel pass also makes sense in that it encourages the elderly to give up the car and use public transport-less vehicles going about clogging up the traffic system with just one or two people on board

batgoat

Sir Oxman wrote: »

It is a suggestion, that is all.
I believe everyone should make some monetary contribution to a service (in this instance peak rush hour)
Whether that is a doable or not, I don't know.
Is it fair, I believe so.

They've also done decades of contributions towards state services. You'll also find plenty only use the pass a handful of times in their lifetime. But I'd be delighted if usage increased. It makes it far easier for a person in their latter years to maintain an outgoing life. Retirement tends to be a common point for depression to become an issue so free passes likely help maintain healthy mental health. There's a saving for you since you're obsessed with the cost..

noodler

Grab All Association wrote: »

How original a thread.


Without free travel pass users it’d cost you a lot more to travel on public transport. Pass holders would fill seats that otherwise would remain empty. Companies have a choice of 70% of the fare or bulk payment.

Part of the reason off peak use was scrapped was because transport companies requested it from Seamus Brennan as they struggled to fill/sell seats. 70% is better than an empty seat.

Different time.

MrMusician18

Goldengirl wrote: »

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Nonsense. If children under six were under attending the GP and we're suffering from genuine illness then child mortality rates would have been through the roof prior to the introduction of this policy. They weren't.

The GP card for under six is just middle class welfare.

Sir Oxman

batgoat wrote: »

They've also done decades of contributions towards state services. You'll also find plenty only use the pass a handful of times in their lifetime. But I'd be delighted if usage increased. It makes it far easier for a person in their latter years to maintain an outgoing life. Retirement tends to be a common point for depression to become an issue so free passes likely help maintain healthy mental health. There's a saving for you since you're obsessed with the cost..

Please don't assume.

Obviously you and the likes of you cannot even contemplate an alternative point of view or suggestions to make things fairer and eventually more efficient.

Notice I haven't argued against any of the positives of FTP expressed in this thread or said it is a waste of money etc etc

First Up

facehugger99 wrote: »

devondudley wrote: »

im not too bothered by whos entitled to it or not but it always gets me wondering with the free travel how people give out about the quality and price of the service of both trains and buses when for example im the only one of 12 paying so im the only income bus eireann got from that route.

Every taxpayer in the Country is subsidising it through a PSO.

There's noting free about the FTP's - it just means others are picking up the tab.

Those subsidies are there to maintain the service, whether FTP card holders use it or not. The alternative is that the route is dropped or reduced. Its not the fault of FTPs that others aren't using the service.

batgoat

Sir Oxman wrote: »

Please don't assume.

Obviously you and the likes of you cannot even contemplate an alternative point of view or suggestions to make things fairer and eventually more efficient.

Notice I haven't argued against any of the positives of FTP expressed in this thread or said it is a waste of money etc etc

I'm just pointing out that not charging is likely more beneficial in long run for maintaining a healthier elderly population. There's no indication that the elderly are overloading at peak time so really your argument sounds a tad silly in general.

facehugger99

First Up wrote: »

Those subsidies are there to maintain the service, whether FTP card holders use it or not. The alternative is that the route is dropped or reduced. Its not the fault of FTPs that others aren't using the service.

If everyone was paying, the subsidy would be less - that's patently obvious.

Sir Oxman

batgoat wrote: »

I'm just pointing out that not charging is likely more beneficial in long run for maintaining a healthier elderly population. There's no indication that the elderly are overloading at peak time so really your argument sounds a tad silly in general.

A truly integrated public services system is silly?
And in the meantime before Ireland reaches that utopia, a small charge for peak rush hour usage is also silly?

Right so, I can see fairness does not come into this at all for a lot of contributors here.

Dravokivich

facehugger99 wrote: »

If everyone was paying, the subsidy would be less - that's patently obvious.

The subsidy is not linked to usage, nor the amount of free travel passes. Its plucked from the air.

The issue with the free travel pass, is down to expanding the scope of it, with very little proper enforcement of it. The enforcement should be easier to handle with the public services card.

PlaneSpeeking

I've just travelled up by train to work and I have to say that part of the issue could be alleviated by only allowing passengers to reserve a seat on one train (like an airline etc).

This morning a good dozen people were standing just at my stop (and I'm down the country) and yet there were as many "reserved" names overhead. No one was using them but people don't want to chance sitting in them and getting yelled at or causing bother.

End reserved seating except in first class, it's the only sensible way for all.

TheQuietFella

noodler wrote: »

Different time.

No it isn't!

batgoat

Sir Oxman wrote: »

A truly integrated public services system is silly?
And in the meantime before Ireland reaches that utopia, a small charge for peak rush hour usage is also silly?

Right so, I can see fairness does not come into this at all for a lot of contributors here.

I don't see you illustrating why it's unfair...

First Up

facehugger99 wrote: »

First Up wrote: »

Those subsidies are there to maintain the service, whether FTP card holders use it or not. The alternative is that the route is dropped or reduced. Its not the fault of FTPs that others aren't using the service.

If everyone was paying, the subsidy would be less - that's patently obvious.

That assumes FTP holders would still travel if they had to pay. The statistics would be interesting but I suspect 90%+ of FTP use is didcretionary and it just facilitates sociability.

No doubt there is some revenue potential but I suspect it is marginal. A couple of OAPs taking a day trip to Cork or to visit their grandkids is a social benefit, not a financial loss. And they might buy a sandwich on the train.

Knine

Sir Oxman wrote: »

It is a suggestion, that is all.
I believe everyone should make some monetary contribution to a service (in this instance peak rush hour)
Whether that is a doable or not, I don't know.
Is it fair, I believe so.

Carer's already contribute far more then their fair share so no I don't agree. They also have to pay for the person being cared for using the transport with them.

Goldengirl

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AndrewJRenko

Sir Oxman wrote: »

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Please go do some research on the expansion plans for the PSC and we can continue the discussion when you have some clue about what is involved.

As it stands, you are expecting teams of people to throw out their existing 5 year plan because some random bloke on the Internet came up with a random idea on how to restrict public services, with no clear business case or benefit arising.

You are very hyperbolic, throwing out untrue accusations without a bother and in your head assuming the infrastructure plan for the PSC card or anything ever will be influenced by anything said in After Hours on boards.ie

You don't want discussion and debate - you do like the sound of your own gripes though.

Maybe you'll qualify for a FTP due to that complex of yours.

Let me know if you're interested in getting back to discuss the issue in hand, instead of taking shots at me.

Goldengirl

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skooterblue2

Knine wrote: »

Carer's already contribute far more then their fair share so no I don't agree. They also have to pay for the person being cared for using the transport with them.

I am not saying that there isnt massive wastage in the budget of the HSE. But if the full burden of the Carers was to be absorbed by the HSE, the system would teeter over and collapse. Carers do better work and give more quality and care than the equivalent in nursing homes. They do it on the fraction of a budget and are on call 24/7 with little respite services.

I wouldnt begrudge a carer a Travel Pass much less anything else

Hotblack Desiato

batgoat wrote: »

They've also done decades of contributions towards state services.

Sick of hearing this cliched nonsense. A good percentage of the population are complete wasters who've never worked a day in their lives. Therefore a percentage of OAPs are also complete wasters who never worked a day in their lives. According to some on here, sainthood is conferred on one's 66th birthday :rolleyes:

But I'd be delighted if usage increased. It makes it far easier for a person in their latter years to maintain an outgoing life. Retirement tends to be a common point for depression to become an issue so free passes likely help maintain healthy mental health. There's a saving for you since you're obsessed with the cost..

A free pass for peak time services is not required for the above.

Hotblack Desiato

Goldengirl wrote: »

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That's not true though.

ohnonotgmail

Goldengirl wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Everybody 66 or over is entitled to a FTP. no contributions necessary. Those 65 or under who receive disability allowance get a FTP. No contributions are required to receive disability allowance.

gormdubhgorm

Emme wrote: »

I agree that some of these people worked hard and paid high taxes in their time but not as many of them were forced to do long commutes. They didn't have to work under the same pressure as people do now. Many of the women could be full time mums while many commuting women do not have this choice. Many of the FTP holders are in better health and more energetic than exhausted commuters. Yet we will have to work far longer than they did. Because of their energy they are able to protest if the government takes away their full time FTPs. There was a time it was for off peak travel only.

Just be glad you are fortunate enough to be able to stand some people are not so lucky - disabled, old age etc
It sounds like you wish you were old as well so you could get your free travel pass. (Most elderly get up early anyway by the way)

But, if you are that eager to avail of the service you could saw off one of your legs go on disability allowance, get the Free Travel Pass and you will be so much happier! (Think of the money you would save!!! And you won't even have to work!)
You can only hope it the rule where the FTP can only be used in off peak does not return after you go one legged, because that will limit your freedom even more