'The Haunting Soldier' sculpture vandalised

Dyr

mick malones mauser wrote: »

...
Which begs the question ...is the purpose of these monuments to really remember and pay homage to the MILLIONS of mainly poor working class lads who were sent to their deaths by a ruling class that cared not a whit about them....or is it to perpetuate the old myth...Dulce Et Decorum Est Pro Patria Mori

It's to try show how neat, and clean and civilized (and well advised) we are by rehabilitating the British Empire on this Island

swarlb

mick malones mauser wrote: »

So whats your point

Maybe it's to show that there is a place of remembrance already, at Islandbridge, Built in the 1930's

Spanish Eyes

The participation of many MEN in Ireland (which was Britain at the time, but no matter...), Was an economic decision. Go and get paid, or stay and be destitute.

Neither option was perfect, but hey. Who knows what the right decision is/was. Hindsight is great Foresight and all that.

It was a different time to now. But some will never let the past go. EVER.

mick malones mauser

It was a different time to now. But some will never let the past go. EVER.[/quote]


Carlsberg dont do Irony

mick malones mauser

swarlb wrote: »

mick malones mauser wrote: »

So whats your point

Maybe it's to show that there is a place of remembrance already, at Islandbridge, Built in the 1930's

AND ???

corner of hells

mick malones mauser wrote: »

AND ???

I like your style , we could go for two Garden of Remembrances .

mick malones mauser

No
We could go for something non contentious
No militarism..
My own preference would be for gigantic murals all over the City with the names of all Generals and Politcians responsible for the slaughter with the words,These monsters sent millions of young men and boys to their deaths.. Never Again !!!

corner of hells

mick malones mauser wrote: »

No
We could go for something non contentious
No militarism..
My own preference would be for gigantic murals all over the City with the names of all Generals and Politcians responsible for the slaughter with the words,These monsters sent millions of young men and boys to their deaths.. Never Again !!!

So , no gardens of remembrance ?

mick malones mauser

mick malones mauser wrote: »

A garden of rembrance..Yes


The working classes had a higher survival rate..???
Really? I seriously doubt that.

Newly commissioned officers, usually from the upper classes, were the first up the ladder. Their survival rate was pretty minimal.

mick malones mauser

So
One officer and 50 lower ranks are killed going over the top
Hmmm.

Roger Hassenforder

mick malones mauser wrote: »

The working classes had a higher survival rate..???
Really? I seriously doubt that.

Ive a funny feeling I'd be wasting my time posting evidence.
So suffice to say, i'm not going to try and dispel those doubts, i'll leave you blissfully unaware.

mick malones mauser

Roger

Evidence is always welcome Roger

Trizo

mick malones mauser wrote: »

Roger

Evidence is always welcome Roger

Plenty of evidence out there just google.

Although the great majority of casualties in WW1 were from the working class, the social and political elite were hit disproportionately hard by WW1. Their sons provided the junior officers whose job it was to lead the way over the top and expose themselves to the greatest danger as an example to their men.
Some 12% of the British army's ordinary soldiers were killed during the war, compared with 17% of its officers. Eton alone lost more than 1,000 former pupils - 20% of those who served. UK wartime Prime Minister Herbert Asquith lost a son, while future Prime Minister Andrew Bonar Law lost two. Anthony Eden lost two brothers, another brother of his was terribly wounded, and an uncle was captured.

mick malones mauser

Although the great majority of the casualties in WW1 were from the working classes.....

Well well..
Whod a thunk it

Lefty Bicek

Oh ! What a lovely dysgenic war.

Trizo

mick malones mauser wrote: »

Although the great majority of the casualties in WW1 were from the working classes.....

Well well..
Whod a thunk it

You seemed to have cropped the important part which refuted your earlier posts - “the social and political elite were hit disproportionately hard “

As an aside my own great grandfather was conscripted into the war as he was a carpenter and was luckily just behind the front lines.

mick malones mauser

Trizo

The most important part is the lines I qouted.
The point about your great grandfather is totally irrelevant.
Glad he was unscathed though.
Seriously, this was a war fought between several empires, ruled over by disfunctional inbred and related criminial families (who prefer the term royalty,has a more respectable ring to it) and the overwhelming majority of those butchered were working class.
Thats a fact....you can google the bejaysus out of it if you like

Roger Hassenforder

mick malones mauser wrote: »

Roger

Evidence is always welcome Roger

Youre right.
My bad


https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/world-war-1/458751/Death-of-our-best-and-brightest-Eton-Rifles-may-have-been-built-for-slaughter/amp


https://owlcation.com/humanities/Junior-Officers-in-World-War-One


https://www.jstor.org/stable/2173368?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Trizo

mick malones mauser wrote: »

Trizo

The most important part is the lines I qouted.
The point about your great grandfather is totally irrelevant.
Glad he was unscathed though.
Seriously, this was a war fought between several empires, ruled over by disfunctional inbred and related criminial families (who prefer the term royalty,has a more respectable ring to it) and the overwhelming majority of those butchered were working class.
Thats a fact....you can google the bejaysus out of it if you like

Look I don’t disagree with a lot of what you say the war to me was pointless however if your going to state facts you might as well get them right. 12% of ordinary soldiers were killed compared to 17% of officers those were the survival rates.

mick malones mauser

Trizo
Roger

Once again
The vast overwhelming majority of those Butchered were working class
What part of that simple statement of fact do you two not comprehend.??
Ok..
Sorry for the poor unfortunate officers who died
But lets not dress this pig up and put lipstick on it to pretend its something that its not.

Trizo

mick malones mauser wrote: »

Trizo
Roger

Once again
The vast overwhelming majority of those Butchered were working class
What part of that simple statement of fact do you two not comprehend.??
Ok..
Sorry for the poor unfortunate officers who died
But lets not dress this pig up and put lipstick on it to pretend its something that its not.

I think your having the comprehension issue tonight mick , no where in my posts have I stated that the majority of those killed were not ordinary/working class if fact I stated it , however you posted in disbelief earlier about the survival rates between officers and ordinary soldiers for which you have been proved incorrect.

Roger Hassenforder

mick malones mauser wrote: »

Trizo
Roger

Once again
The vast overwhelming majority of those Butchered were working class
What part of that simple statement of fact do you two not comprehend.??
Ok..
Sorry for the poor unfortunate officers who died
But lets not dress this pig up and put lipstick on it to pretend its something that its not.

Yes a lot of working class lads died
A lot of middle/upper class died also

Youre with me so far?

However, if you were middle/upper class, you were more likely to die. They suffered disproportionately greater deaths.

If you were working class, you were more likely to come home.
Fact.

mattser

mick malones mauser wrote: »

Trizo
Roger

Once again
The vast overwhelming majority of those Butchered were working class
What part of that simple statement of fact do you two not comprehend.??
Ok..
Sorry for the poor unfortunate officers who died
But lets not dress this pig up and put lipstick on it to pretend its something that its not.

Got your ass kicked by Roger there, mate. Give up while you're losing.

mick malones mauser

Ok lads
This is obviously special needs class.

The vast overwhelming majority majority of those Butchered were working class.

Thats a fact.
Google the bejaysus out of it.
Goodnight

mick malones mauser

Mattser
I dont think so
But thanks for your contribution

Roger Hassenforder

mick malones mauser wrote: »

Ok lads
This is obviously special needs class.

The vast overwhelming majority majority of those Butchered were working class.

Thats a fact.
Google the bejaysus out of it.
Goodnight

This isnt a difficult concept.

A lot of working class lads fought
A lot of working class lads died.
A lot of working class lads survived.

Surely you understand this?


A lot of middle/upper class lads fought
A lot of middle/upper lads died.
A lot of middle/upper lads survived

Ok so far?

Now here is where you seem to get lost, when we talk about casualty rates, and probability


As per the previous links, if you were middle/upper class, you had a greater chance of being killed. If you were working class you had a greater chance of surviving.
The middle/upper classes suffered proportionately greater causalties, suffered more

Roger Hassenforder

Nitey night!

mattser

mick malones mauser wrote: »

Mattser
I dont think so
But thanks for your contribution

You're welcome. Have a peaceful sleep, courtesy of the empire you despise. Leave your bedroom light on too, there's no danger in the sky.

Dyr

This reminds me of having a nosey in a church in middle england a while back, one of those churches where they hang regimental flags and such. There was a memorial plaque set up to the local battalion. It listed all the officers who died in WW1, Captain Smedley Barrows, col. Chiswick-Carruthers etc etc. an impressive list. Then a line at the end commemorating the 600 odd enlisted men who died, almost as a Post Script.

It's a meaningless statistic given the numeric disparity.

mattser

Bambi wrote: »

This reminds me of having a nosey in a church in middle england a while back, one of those churches where they hang regimental flags and such. There was a memorial plaque set up to the local battalion. It listed all the officers who died in WW1, Captain Smedley Barrows, col. Chiswick-Carruthers etc etc. an impressive list. Then a line at the end commemorating the 600 odd enlisted men who died, almost as a Post Script.

It's a meaningless statistic given the numeric disparity.

Were the locals complaining, or just a nosey rambling Paddy ?

FrancieBrady

Bambi wrote: »

This reminds me of having a nosey in a church in middle england a while back, one of those churches where they hang regimental flags and such. There was a memorial plaque set up to the local battalion. It listed all the officers who died in WW1, Captain Smedley Barrows, col. Chiswick-Carruthers etc etc. an impressive list. Then a line at the end commemorating the 600 odd enlisted men who died, almost as a Post Script.

It's a meaningless statistic given the numeric disparity.

Have been in a few of those churches as well. Not very easy to cover up the class issue and divide at the heart of British society when you have that evidence of it laid out in marble.

You'll have plenty of Irish here shortly to try and do it(cover it up) though, even though it has cost many many Irish lives over the centuries, not just in the 1914-18 period.

Dyr

mattser wrote: »

Were the locals complaining, or just a nosey rambling Paddy ?

The English don't go to church, you should know that

whisky_galore

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Have been in a few of those churches as well. Not very easy to cover up the class issue and divide at the heart of British society when you have that evidence of it laid out in marble.

You'll have plenty of Irish here shortly to try and do it(cover it up) though, even though it has cost many many Irish lives over the centuries, not just in the 1914-18 period.

As if Ireland is some sort of classless workers paradise..

mattser

Bambi wrote: »

The English don't go to church, you should know that

Really ? What about the ones I went to service with at a small Somerset church recently. Were they exempt ? Or are you deliberately acting the fool ?

swarlb

This whole thread has descended into it's own 'trench warfare' with statements and ill informed 'facts' being tossed back and forth.
The fact is simple, were are living in 2018, and cannot get past pointless debates about things that happened 100, 200, 800 years ago even.
I had actually hoped that Theresa May would wake up one day, and to solve the Brexit issue (and the much more important border issue) she decided to simply 'give it back'.
Her speech ran along the lines of something like this..In an attempt to solve the contentious issues surrounding the Irish Border, and to come to a finality regarding Brexit, and indeed 'The Irish Question' I've decided to 'give back the North'
You can have it... plain and simple. Anyone that wants to leave and come live on the mainland will be re-housed and compensated, the rest can stay put.

This will solve a number of issues...
The wearing of the poppy
The border (there will be none, except in the Irish Sea between the 2 islands)
With one fell swoop all our headaches will be gone... forever.

As well as a concession to this, we will throw in Rockall as a sweetener, and over a period of time will dismantle any former items that may cause offence to the Irish, things like Kilmainham Goal, Dublin Castle, The vice Regal Lodge... as I can imagine these building would have caused great pain to any true Irish person, as they obviously invoke memories of oppression by your (previous) Imperial Masters. Gradually over time they will all be pulled down, and you will be free to rebuild your own towns and cities.
Everyone's a winner.. to quote that popular song.

Just think... we'd have no more need for 'The Ra' or even Sinn Fein, and we'd be free to live our lives as a fully independent nation.

I wonder how we'd cope ? Firstly with the tens of thousands of unemployed civil servants up north, and the cost of maintaining all those lovely flat roads up there as well.

mattser

swarlb wrote: »

This whole thread has descended into it's own 'trench warfare' with statements and ill informed 'facts' being tossed back and forth.
The fact is simple, were are living in 2018, and cannot get past pointless debates about things that happened 100, 200, 800 years ago even.
I had actually hoped that Theresa May would wake up one day, and to solve the Brexit issue (and the much more important border issue) she decided to simply 'give it back'.
Her speech ran along the lines of something like this..In an attempt to solve the contentious issues surrounding the Irish Border, and to come to a finality regarding Brexit, and indeed 'The Irish Question' I've decided to 'give back the North'
You can have it... plain and simple. Anyone that wants to leave and come live on the mainland will be re-housed and compensated, the rest can stay put.

This will solve a number of issues...
The wearing of the poppy
The border (there will be none, except in the Irish Sea between the 2 islands)
With one fell swoop all our headaches will be gone... forever.

As well as a concession to this, we will throw in Rockall as a sweetener, and over a period of time will dismantle any former items that may cause offence to the Irish, things like Kilmainham Goal, Dublin Castle, The vice Regal Lodge... as I can imagine these building would have caused great pain to any true Irish person, as they obviously invoke memories of oppression by your (previous) Imperial Masters. Gradually over time they will all be pulled down, and you will be free to rebuild your own towns and cities.
Everyone's a winner.. to quote that popular song.

Just think... we'd have no more need for 'The Ra' or even Sinn Fein, and we'd be free to live our lives as a fully independent nation.

I wonder how we'd cope ? Firstly with the tens of thousands of unemployed civil servants up north, and the cost of maintaining all those lovely flat roads up there as well.

So the Unionist community are forced to give up their Irishness and are horsed across the sea.
Go back to bed. You're still asleep.

Dyr

mattser wrote: »

Really ? What about the ones I went to service with at a small Somerset church recently. Were they exempt ? Or are you deliberately acting the fool ?

For a fella who goes around calling people Paddy, you're a sensitive wee thing ain't ya?

klaaaz

mattser wrote: »

So the Unionist community are forced to give up their Irishness and are horsed across the sea.

If they started to embrace their Irishness would be a good start for a change. They all labelled themselves British rather than Irish in the last census.

Lefty Bicek

mattser wrote: »

Really ? What about the ones I went to service with at a small Somerset church recently. Were they exempt ? Or are you deliberately acting the fool ?

How was the soup ?



It's a joke. Calm down !

FrancieBrady

whisky_galore wrote: »

As if Ireland is some sort of classless workers paradise..

What did I say? :D

Bambi

Bambi wrote: »

This reminds me of having a nosey in a church in middle england a while back, one of those churches where they hang regimental flags and such. There was a memorial plaque set up to the local battalion. It listed all the officers who died in WW1, Captain Smedley Barrows, col. Chiswick-Carruthers etc etc. an impressive list. Then a line at the end commemorating the 600 odd enlisted men who died, almost as a Post Script.

It's a meaningless statistic given the numeric disparity.

would you care to name the Church, or the location?

The normal convention is for men of the Parish to be named in alphabetical order, like this http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Hampshire/Ropley.html

and this http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Hertfordshire/StAlbansAbbeyHertsYeoWW1RollofHonour.html

Timberrrrrrrr

Aegir wrote: »

would you care to name the Church, or the location?

The normal convention is for men of the Parish to be named in alphabetical order, like this http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Hampshire/Ropley.html

and this http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Hertfordshire/StAlbansAbbeyHertsYeoWW1RollofHonour.html

That's how it is in the church near me and also at the memorial in the local park, I have never seen rank placed at the forfront, everyone is listed alphabetically.

Franz Von Peppercorn

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Have been in a few of those churches as well. Not very easy to cover up the class issue and divide at the heart of British society when you have that evidence of it laid out in marble.

You'll have plenty of Irish here shortly to try and do it(cover it up) though, even though it has cost many many Irish lives over the centuries, not just in the 1914-18 period.

Still the facts are correct that proportionally more middle and upper middle class kids died. 20% of eton grads vs 10% of the enlisted men. 50% of all soldiers were injured. Source. Jackson’s movie - they shall not grow old.

CrankyHaus

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Still the facts are correct that proportionally more middle and upper middle class kids died. 20% of eton grads vs 10% of the enlisted men. 50% of all soldiers were injured. Source. Jackson’s movie - they shall not grow old.

This is in large part why WW1 casts such a long shadow in the UK. The wars it fought before mainly involved its underclass, "the scum of the earth, enlisted for drink" as the Duke of Wellington described his men.

WW1 had a disproportionate amount of "respectable" people at the front line, right down to the level of private due to the volunteer system. These were literate and able to speak of their experiences in places where they would be heard, which was quite novel and shocking to a population indoctrinated to believe that war was chivalrous and noble.

FrancieBrady

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Still the facts are correct that proportionally more middle and upper middle class kids died. 20% of eton grads vs 10% of the enlisted men. 50% of all soldiers were injured. Source. Jackson’s movie - they shall not grow old.

I never contested that fact.
It is why this war is so well 'remembered'. For once the elite paid a price and we won't be allowed to forget it like wars that wasted lower class cannon fodder.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I never contested that fact.
It is why this war is so well 'remembered'. For once the elite paid a price and we won't be allowed to forget it like wars that wasted lower class cannon fodder.

Jesus, you never stop do you.

The reason it is remembered so well, in loads of countries, is because 16 million people died.

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

Jesus, you never stop do you.

The reason it is remembered so well, in loads of countries, is because 16 million people died.

Yes it is respectfully remembered in other countries.
However, the bone of contention here is how it is remembered in Britain. There is no doubt that a lot of the remember is unseemly and divisive. Many British people shun the remembrance never mind those here who object to the November frenzy.

Dyr

Aegir wrote: »

The reason it is remembered so well, in loads of countries, is because 16 million people died.

When are we sticking up a statue to commemorate the Spanish Flu so?

Bambi

Bambi wrote: »

When are we sticking up a statue to commemorate the Spanish Flu so?

Go on then

_Kaiser_

Read the first page and skipped ahead.

The most depressing thing about this whole issue is not just the defacement of the statue... It's the bitter anger and entrenched attitudes from our republican-leaning posters - attitudes that have no place in 2018 on either side of the issue.

I thought these die hards were finally well, dying off... But they are always all over threads like this spitting hatred and resentment and trying to drag us back to a time when bombings and murders (by both sides) were a weekly occurrence.

Time to join the rest of us in the 21st century lads.