Company won't pay for software they paid for last year

DesperateDan

Poll added

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

It's Ms Horribilis :pac:
No, the Adobe licence reads to be as just another example of how they're taking you for granted. That book they wouldn't buy, the phone they never offered you, the computer you bought yourself, all those many unpaid hours you've put in... Do you ever feel you've been left behind in this company while all these other people are being taken on? Are they on higher salaries, by any chance?

Left behind, maybe I certainly have less say in how things are operated but I think that just comes with the territory of adding more staff. Higher salaries - I do doubt it.

Blazer

DesperateDan wrote: »

but their recent investment round did fall through and there's other things going on which could cost a lot of money so I can wait I don't mind that aspect of it.

When investment rounds fall through it should be ringing large bells. From the sounds of what you've been describing about their culture its no surprise. Investors aren't fools...they've obviously identified an issue with your company and won't put their money into it.
You're being played for an absolute sucker.
40k a year for a programmer and designer?
You have a great work attitude but this company are taking complete advantage of your naivety,
Walk...and by walk I mean run.
Start looking at other positions in other companies and you will soon see what's so obvious to most of us on this thread.

babi-hrse

In any job it's easy to look at the walls and see how much you've put in and have a fear of the unknown. But your first employer will nearly always see you as the person who gave you the chance to find your feet and justify your wages with lack of experience. Once you do the role long enough it seems like you've just managed to adapt and work with it rather than picking up valuable skills. Anyone I know including myself once moved the new company did not see the inexperienced looking for a start person before them but rather someone who was through a cruicible and learned much more experience than college can teach wages and responsibility get added. You do it once then you realise it's jobs that need you not you them.

Wanderer2010

DesperateDan wrote: »

Yes they would certainly be in a hell of a pickle if I left but they would figure it out.

Im glad you included the second part of that sentence.

Ive seen everyone from company directors to managers to subject matter experts right down to floor staff, canteen staff and admin people all leave jobs or been left go and the company had to cope without them. It may be a small ego boost to hear from your superiors or your workmates "Oh this place would fall DOWN without you, you are amazing!" and such like. The hard truth is absolutely nobody is indispensable and the company, world and life goes on with or without you.
In most cases when your bosses try that crap with you, they are hoping you will feel good enough to do even more in the mistaken belief that your bosses admire and respect you.

Franz Von Peppercorn

DesperateDan wrote: »

You are right I have never met another programmer that was good at art/design either. I consider myself a designer more so than a programmer I just happen to be good at both. I did a masters and under grad in games development and always worked on the art side in projects etc. I taught animation and 3d modelling part time for a year after college.

They do not consider themselves a start up any more. With my wages and the company size, I do.

I would not like to leave and work in another job for an extra 10k because I enjoy this job, the people, and it has the potential to make a lot of money.

It seems crazy to jack in a job over this and some maybe underlying issues about being under valued.

Does it have the potential to make a lot of money? It’s 5 years in and they are squabbling over some software?

DesperateDan

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Does it have the potential to make a lot of money? It’s 5 years in and they are squabbling over some software?

Year on year the company has been doing better and better. Year 2 basically f*ck all happened, year 3 things exploded and we started hiring.

Ursus Horribilis

How do you know this for sure? You haven't seen their accounts. You don't know why the potential investor backed out. Your precious company could just as easily be existing on credit and about to go tits up.

rn

What's a "valid" expense seems to be completely open to opinion in your company op and both yourself and manager are wrong on different issues.

For example if you are doing work predominantly on your laptop, you need a work laptop if even to comply the companies data handling legal requirements (their data and ipr, their laptop that the have control/responsibility over). What your opinion is about waste or the inconvenience of two laptop is irrelevant here.

On other examples eg book and any software required for your role or future roles needs to be fully purchased by them and not installed on your personal hardware.

Theres a grey area around the software you propose to buy because it's really for personal convenience and competence development as opposed to a direct business need.

The endorsement of piracy is at illegal and unethical, which is a bad reflection on the people running that company...

That said it's great to have nice colleagues and a generally enjoyable place to work.

DesperateDan

rn wrote: »

Theres a grey area around the software you propose to buy because it's really for personal convenience and competence development as opposed to a direct business need

Yeah I think that's what it comes down to that's a good perspective. I mistakenly assumed I should be entitled to it after everything I have done for them and for how little I have asked for in return, but we disagree on it being a business need right now for me.

Well seeing as our poll suggests I should be out the ****ing door I think I will have a meeting tomorrow with them and basically outline how tbh I don't care about the software now - I can certainly see why it would be declined.

But I do care that we've inadvertently created a working culture where nobody can ask for anything and I want that to change or for them to be more honest about their finances. And it's enough to demotivate people completely.

I found out yesterday that a remote worker we have had to pay for his own PHP Storm license last year (this is software he writes code in 10 hours a day, for around €150 a year). I don't know if he flat out asked and was refused but he certainly dropped hints he needed it left right and center that they would have ignored. The managers perspective would be that he should just use VS Code (a free alternative). I can't really bring that up because I don't want them thinking I was moaning behind their back with him, but that really has annoyed me as well.

rn

The company must provide tools to do the job, but are within their rights to have a preferred tool and preferred supplier of tools.

With remote worker tools you are into another grey area. The company has the same legal obligation for productivity and H&S with remote workers as they do when they are located in the office. This is why remote working is a legal pain for companies, especially IT companies as people spend so long at their desks causing strains on various parts of the body and their eyes. Most IT companies spend a fortune on ergonomic furniture because they are forced to by law.

For remote working if the tool is specifically required for remote working, it maybe up to the employee to have to pony up as remote working is considered a benefit to the employee.

Currently it's an employees market, so IT companies are flexible with eworking. When the day comes of a contraction in IT, one of the first things to go will be remote working contracts.

Seth Brundle

rn wrote: »

When the day comes of a contraction in IT, one of the first things to go will be remote working contracts.

That's debatable as remote working allows a company to reduce office sizes and therefore save on rent & furniture, etc.
(But it's not really for this thread)

ted1

DesperateDan wrote: »

Small equity yeah. Not just that though I would find it very hard to leave, put too much into it! All the people are great and I enjoy the job. It's literally the first proper disagreement I've had in 5 years.

You sound like a right sucker.

With small equity they are taking the pi55 out if you.

TheChizler

DesperateDan wrote: »

I found out yesterday that a remote worker we have had to pay for his own PHP Storm license last year (this is software he writes code in 10 hours a day, for around €150 a year). I don't know if he flat out asked and was refused but he certainly dropped hints he needed it left right and center that they would have ignored. The managers perspective would be that he should just use VS Code (a free alternative). I can't really bring that up because I don't want them thinking I was moaning behind their back with him, but that really has annoyed me as well.

He didn't have to pay for it so did he? It was his personal choice.

Agent Smith

dubrov wrote: »

In fairness the company seems to be over 5 years old.
If it hasn't established itself in that time, it probably never will

I was wondering, How long can you class them as an startup.

tookotook

I think if OP found out the revenue of the company he/or she would be shocked. It's the owners job to keep your salary as low as possible while getting the most work and they will only tell you the bare minimum. If I were you I'd start looking for another job, and then you'll find out your true market rate. They are taking you for a fool

fishy_fishy

DesperateDan wrote: »

rn wrote: »

Theres a grey area around the software you propose to buy because it's really for personal convenience and competence development as opposed to a direct business need

Well seeing as our poll suggests I should be out the ****ing door I think I will have a meeting tomorrow with them and basically outline how tbh I don't care about the software now - I can certainly see why it would be declined.

But I do care that we've inadvertently created a working culture where nobody can ask for anything and I want that to change or for them to be more honest about their finances. And it's enough to demotivate people completely.

Dan, you're not being taken for a fool. You are a fool.

People in graduate roles after 2 years are on 40k, having put NOTHING into their employer's businesses and having had massive amounts of training paid for.

You're underpaid, overworked and you just don't get it. It's not some happy clappy world where they'll share all the financial details and ensure they pay as much as possible so that everyone can feel all warm and fuzzy.

The guy who could see the detailed financials got out. The investors are backing away.

Your equity is worthless. Get out.

The_Honeybadger

Op you can download the company’s accounts from the CRO for a couple of euros. You’ll know then if they are feeding you BS in relation to how they are set financially.

To say you can’t leave because you have put too much in to it is nuts, if the company got in to difficulty would they show you the same loyalty? You probably know the answer already.

Tar.Aldarion

fishy_fishy wrote: »

Dan, you're not being taken for a fool. You are a fool.

People in graduate roles after 2 years are on 40k, having put NOTHING into their employer's businesses and having had massive amounts of training paid for.

You're underpaid, overworked and you just don't get it. It's not some happy clappy world where they'll share all the financial details and ensure they pay as much as possible so that everyone can feel all warm and fuzzy.

The guy who could see the detailed financials got out. The investors are backing away.

Your equity is worthless. Get out.

I was on more than OP after 1 year of experience as a developer, you know why? Because I asked for it and explained why, I've never had to ask again since. Seems like a joke of a place to me, they have become too comfortable around you OP, they just assume you'll keep working the way you are, because you give no indication otherwise and you don't go after your own worth. They won't be able to replace you with somebody so cheap, you need to put it to them why you are valuable and it seems you already did and they gave you 20k less than asking. When you say it could potentially make a lot of money, I don't even see how, they don't even give you much equity. When they are rich you still won't be.

Pelvis

Oh Dan, I'd think this was a piss take if it wasn't for the fact you're a long time boards member.

You've a Bachelors degree, a Masters degree and 5 years experience and after working for free for a couple of years and buying all your own gear you're still only getting 40k!!?

WAKE UP MAN!!!

The tight ass nature of your employer appears to me to suggest that it's not lack of funds stopping you from getting more, or stopping them from buying proper software licenses. Fact is, the less money that goes into your pocket and to other peripherals, the more money goes into theirs.

eurokev

Any update Dan??