Ireland v USA | Joe Schmidt 36 hour speculation thread

Former Former

Former Former wrote: »

Eddie did a great job overall. Someone above said he pissed away our talent on triple crowns, that's pretty ignorant tbh. Winning three TCs in four years was incredible progress from where we had been for the previous two decades. He was a leading candidate for the 09 Lions until it all fell apart.

Eddie suffers massively because of the 07 RWC and he has to shoulder his share of the blame for it but no one really knows what went wrong there.

His contract extension raised a few eyebrows because it would have meant he'd be in charge for ten years but there was absolutely no suggestion that he shouldn't have been kept on.

I dunno. I'm inclined to agree with you, but then the provinces were starting to produce serious talent and perform in Europe consistently, and the 2001 and 2005 Lions tours had been particularly trans-formative at a time when the sport was going pro in Ireland for the first time.

Eddie's career as a coach never went anywhere after Ireland either, I think if he was as impressive as you suggest he'd have found a level somewhere where he could deliver as a HC.

I think ultimately Jones did an ok job with an unprecedented generation of talent in Ireland. Kidney didn't bring anything new to the table, probably made us more consistent as a group of forwards but we completely lacked inventiveness.

I think it's taken until Joe for the impressive provincial work to properly translate to the International stage. Irish provinces have been quite dominant in Europe since 2006, taking 50% of the titles on offer since then. I don't think that ever translated fully and consistently to Ireland until Joe took over.

It took a bloody foreigner to bring it all together!

Squidgy Black

Eddie's coaching career went fairly downhill after he left the Ireland job, went to USA then Biarritz in D2, and then Old Belvedere.

CatFromHue

He had ties to USA from before so and he did turn down going to Edinburgh to bring USA to the 2011 RWC. Edinburgh wanted him to start before the RWC and he said he wouldn't.

Biarritz were all over the place when he went there so it's not a surprise he couldn't do much with them.

Old Belvedere I thought he was just a consultant type appointment.

He was also turned down for all Irish coaching positions which doesn't make sense, and didn't at the time either.

I think Eddie did a better than ok job with Ireland. You can look back and say he had a golden generation cos he had ROG, BOD, POC, DOC, and D'arcy. He also had no else at a high level for 10 or centre cover, Paddy Wallace and Gavin Duffy were the backs subs, and in general we just didn't have a top level squad. We had some good players, just not enough of them.

The 2003 RWC can be found here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Rugby_World_Cup_squads#_Ireland

Anthony Horgan, John Kelly, Neil Doak, Guy Easterby, Simon Best, Frankie Sheehan, and Paddy Wallace weren't players to turn an International game in your favour. Good provincial players but not International ones. Even though we all love Stringer he was a limited scrum half at International level. Then there's guys in that squad which could do a job at International level but were never going to be world beaters.

Similar story at the 2007 RWC
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Rugby_World_Cup_squads#_Ireland

If you take all the players at their best than the current front row players would all walk into both those teams, the same with the halfbacks, and serious competiton in the wings/fb.

Former Former

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I dunno. I'm inclined to agree with you, but then the provinces were starting to produce serious talent and perform in Europe consistently, and the 2001 and 2005 Lions tours had been particularly trans-formative at a time when the sport was going pro in Ireland for the first time.

Eddie's career as a coach never went anywhere after Ireland either, I think if he was as impressive as you suggest he'd have found a level somewhere where he could deliver as a HC.

I think ultimately Jones did an ok job with an unprecedented generation of talent in Ireland. Kidney didn't bring anything new to the table, probably made us more consistent as a group of forwards but we completely lacked inventiveness.

I think it's taken until Joe for the impressive provincial work to properly translate to the International stage. Irish provinces have been quite dominant in Europe since 2006, taking 50% of the titles on offer since then. I don't think that ever translated fully and consistently to Ireland until Joe took over.

It took a bloody foreigner to bring it all together!

I suppose my point is that, at the time, Eddie was viewed as very successful and a very good coach and until Joe arrived was the most successful coach we ever had. We all thought he was brilliant.

It was only in the last seven months of his seven year reign that things went wrong but it completely tarnished his entire legacy. That's not right IMO but eaten bread etc.

I think back to 2015 and a lot of knives were out for Joe. This place was full of people abusing him after the Argentina game, it was an absolute disgrace. A bad World Cup next year will have the same effect except he won't be sticking around to redeem himself again.

CatFromHue

Also on coaching and get jobs, there just isn't the amount of opportunities in rugby.

Take Lancaster who's now, you could argue, an in demand coach. He left Eng in Nov 2015 and got the Leinster job in Sep 2016, he joined as a Senior coach too not a head coach. If Kurt McQuilken didn't have to leave would Lancaster hove gotten any job since leaving England?

Jump_In_Jack

Former Former wrote: »

Eddie did a great job overall. Someone above said he pissed away our talent on triple crowns, that's pretty ignorant tbh. Winning three TCs in four years was incredible progress from where we had been for the previous two decades. He was a leading candidate for the 09 Lions until it all fell apart.

Eddie suffers massively because of the 07 RWC and he has to shoulder his share of the blame for it but no one really knows what went wrong there.

His contract extension raised a few eyebrows because it would have meant he'd be in charge for ten years but there was absolutely no suggestion that he shouldn't have been kept on.

I thought I watched something on the Telly before about the 07 RWC and Ireland’s poor form was due to over-training on weights.
The guys thought they would improve if they went heavier but they bulked up too much and ended up losing some of their stamina and pace and agility.
They fell flat during the games trying to out-muscle their opponents and couldn’t go back to running it out wide as they didn’t have the right conditioning going into the tournament.
I think they all bought into that idea at the time but in hindsight they figured out that they overdid it.
I think Eddie was the one that drove that idea, they were massively motivated to achieve something, but perhaps whoever was in charge of the training and conditioning was not cut out for preparing a squad to peak at a RWC.
They certainly didn’t perform to their potential.

Dog Botherer

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

I thought I watched something on the Telly before about the 07 RWC and Ireland’s poor form was due to over-training on weights.
The guys thought they would improve if they went heavier but they bulked up too much and ended up losing some of their stamina and pace and agility.
They fell flat during the games trying to out-muscle their opponents and couldn’t go back to running it out wide as they didn’t have the right conditioning going into the tournament.
I think they all bought into that idea at the time but in hindsight they figured out that they overdid it.
I think Eddie was the one that drove that idea, they were massively motivated to achieve something, but perhaps whoever was in charge of the training and conditioning was not cut out for preparing a squad to peak at a RWC.
They certainly didn’t perform to their potential.

I remember listening to ROG on a recent roadshow, either OTB or The42, and he said there was a definite emphasis on gymwork in the run up to that WC. He said that the style of rugby being played at the time was based heavily on a power game and that the management didn't want Ireland to be underpowered coming up against bigger teams. Unfortunately the result was overtraining.

If the goal was to be a bigger, more powerful squad for the world cup - the time to start prepping for that is 24 months out, not 6 weeks before.

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

If the goal was to be a bigger, more powerful squad for the world cup - the time to start prepping for that is 24 months out, not 6 weeks before.

That depends on what "run up" means. I wouldn't automatically assume that it meant from the time the squad got together. If that actually was the case, the S&C guy(s) were not very good.

prawnsambo

prawnsambo wrote: »

That depends on what "run up" means. I wouldn't automatically assume that it meant from the time the squad got together. If that actually was the case, the S&C guy(s) were not very good.

Sounds like failings on a couple of fronts alright. You can over-train at any point but you realise quickly enough when the body isn't recovering so it sounds to me like it was in the final few months.

The warm up's were dire that year also. We lost to Scotland, beat a French team and barely scraped by Italy.

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

Sounds like failings on a couple of fronts alright. You can over-train at any point but you realise quickly enough when the body isn't recovering so it sounds to me like it was in the final few months.

The warm up's were dire that year also. We lost to Scotland, beat a French team and barely scraped by Italy.

To be fair, I never got excited about the results of warm up games. So many factors involved: New caps, different combinations, lads minding themselves for fear of missing out etc. If you listen to the players who were involved back then, we were still scratching the surface of professionalism. Lots of amateur thinking still endemic in the system.

Try_harder

Former Former wrote: »

I suppose my point is that, at the time, Eddie was viewed as very successful and a very good coach and until Joe arrived was the most successful coach we ever had. We all thought he was brilliant.

It was only in the last seven months of his seven year reign that things went wrong but it completely tarnished his entire legacy. That's not right IMO but eaten bread etc.

I think back to 2015 and a lot of knives were out for Joe. This place was full of people abusing him after the Argentina game, it was an absolute disgrace. A bad World Cup next year will have the same effect except he won't be sticking around to redeem himself again.

On a point of Declan Kidney...

Eddie failed to deliver-no Ian Poulter

Dave_The_Sheep

Some of the attacking play under EOS was absolutely savage. That game against Italy where we ultimately failed, but nothing left on the pitch is one of my favourite games. We just ****ing went for it. Let in a try at the end, to our downfall, but still.

O'Sullivan was a more consistently sucessful coach than Kidney (my feeling alone, no stats, because I don't know them), but Kidney delivered the Grand Slam, which is huge. I've done a bit of reading on munsterfans and that was always held against Schmidt that Kidney got a GS, but Schmidt hadn't until last year. Evey then admit it's undisputable (as if it wasn't before, Kidney and EOS were level for me, EOS shading it a bit maybe, but only a feather worth). Eddie was a man for his time, but not much more I think. I will always love his interview prior to the Ireland-England game in 2007 - and that game stands to him. That was a serious season for us. His World Cup was a disaster. Then again, eventually, so was Joe's first WC.

Schmidt outshines each and even added together they can't touch him. And I'm fairly sure they don't care.

Try_harder

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Some of the attacking play under EOS was absolutely savage. That game against Italy where we ultimately failed, but nothing left on the pitch is one of my favourite games. We just ****ing went for it. Let in a try at the end, to our downfall, but still.

O'Sullivan was a more consistently sucessful coach than Kidney (my feeling alone, no stats, because I don't know them), but Kidney delivered the Grand Slam, which is huge. I've done a bit of reading on munsterfans and that was always held against Schmidt that Kidney got a GS, but Schmidt hadn't until last year. Evey then admit it's undisputable (as if it wasn't before, Kidney and EOS were level for me, EOS shading it a bit maybe, but only a feather worth). Eddie was a man for his time, but not much more I think. I will always love his interview prior to the Ireland-England game in 2007 - and that game stands to him. That was a serious season for us. His World Cup was a disaster. Then again, eventually, so was Joe's first WC.

Schmidt outshines each and even added together they can't touch him. And I'm fairly sure they don't care.

Yes put EOS at Kidney's level... :rolleyes::o

Dubinusa

Just watched the match again.
Herring was very impressive when he came on as was Luke.
John Ryan and Healy absolutely destroyed the Eagles scrum. It was masterful.
On an aside, that flanker Quill looked very impressive and he really put himself about.
The Eagles are slowly improving imo and with the mlr, I can see the game growing over here.

Who did Byrne come on for?

Dave_The_Sheep

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Some of the attacking play under EOS was absolutely savage. That game against Italy where we ultimately failed, but nothing left on the pitch is one of my favourite games. We just ****ing went for it. Let in a try at the end, to our downfall, but still.

O'Sullivan was a more consistently sucessful coach than Kidney (my feeling alone, no stats, because I don't know them), but Kidney delivered the Grand Slam, which is huge. I've done a bit of reading on munsterfans and that was always held against Schmidt that Kidney got a GS, but Schmidt hadn't until last year. Evey then admit it's undisputable (as if it wasn't before, Kidney and EOS were level for me, EOS shading it a bit maybe, but only a feather worth). Eddie was a man for his time, but not much more I think. I will always love his interview prior to the Ireland-England game in 2007 - and that game stands to him. That was a serious season for us. His World Cup was a disaster. Then again, eventually, so was Joe's first WC.

Schmidt outshines each and even added together they can't touch him. And I'm fairly sure they don't care.

Every 6N we had under Kidney after 2009 was average to poor. We went from 5 wins to 3, to 3, to 2.5 to 1.5. There's an obvious trend there and the last two seasons were unacceptable. He had that Leinster team to pick from as well.

But he won a slam. EOS probably was more consistent but the slam is the slam.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Who did Byrne come on for?

I think he came on for Sweetnam. Carbery moved to fullback and Addison moved to the wing.

Gave Joe a chance to have a sneaky look at Carbery at 15, I'd say he was delighted

Dubinusa

Yeah, I agree with that. I think Carberry is a natural 15. He's got the guile and can really inject some pace into our attack. He did very well for Leinster and has experience at 15.

vetinari

For me, the big ding against EOS is the failure to win a Six Nations championship.
We had what 4 second places during his tenure.
Fine margins but that's ultimately what defines you as a coach.
Win 2 of those and he goes down as our second best ever coach.

Robert McGrath

vetinari wrote: »

For me, the big ding against EOS is the failure to win a Six Nations championship.
We had what 4 second places during his tenure.
Fine margins but that's ultimately what defines you as a coach.
Win 2 of those and he goes down as our second best ever coach.

Obviously history focuses primarily on the results.

But imagine an only slightly different universe that is same as ours but for two things:

That French fella who scored the last minute try against Scotland in 2007 moved his foot by 2 inches so he was in touch.

And the last minute penalty by Wales in 2009 had a little bit more juice and went over the bar instead of falling short by about 12 inches

The difference between EOS not winning a 6N and Kidney winning a 6N was a total of about 15 inches in two incidents - neither of which they nor the Irish players could control.

Kidney was marginally luckier, and it’s very tough to hold that against Eddie as a major failing

vetinari

We came second 4 times.
EOS was definitely unlucky at times but ultimately 4 second places makes it look like you can't get your team over the line.
You can call it luck or just being a better coach but Schimdt has managed to be far more on the right side of those tight situations than EOS.

Robert McGrath

vetinari wrote: »

We came second 4 times.
EOS was definitely unlucky at times but ultimately 4 second places makes it look like you can't get your team over the line.
You can call it luck or just being a better coach but Schimdt has managed to be far more on the right side of those tight situations than EOS.

Schmidt, of course. Deccie, not so much

Podge_irl

vetinari wrote: »

We came second 4 times.
EOS was definitely unlucky at times but ultimately 4 second places makes it look like you can't get your team over the line.
You can call it luck or just being a better coach but Schimdt has managed to be far more on the right side of those tight situations than EOS.

You can call it being unable to beat France.