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JFK Assassination Autopsy Details Revealed After 55 Years
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Hang on you think the turn from Main to the turn on Elm is 500m?!
Aside from the fact Ive been there and walked it, yes you can prove it with GPS.
So, the top of my head figure of 50m was slightly off. Its about 70m.
However, just for ha ha's lets look at your 500m.
For fúcks sake.
You measured the length of a block. If it was as the crow flies from the 6th floor to the corner of Elm and Houston it would have been much further. Anyway to contextualize it a bit the Robert Hughes film is worthwhile.
After turning off main and going to Houston at 22 seconds it takes a further 16 seconds to move onto Elm. Ample time to take dead aim and fire only the same Robert Hughes film shows no shooter in the snipers nest on the 6th floor. The Robert Hughes film also shows many people running to grassy knoll. This was presented to Warren commission in 1963 but was more or less disregarded. Why? Because it doesn't fit their pie in the sky theory. Interestingly there is one man going against the flow of people at 1.08 in the same video. I wonder is that the patriot Jack Ruby?
https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kA0t5zvaW70&ved=2ahUKEwi3pbKNvZbfAhW0VBUIHf-BBGsQtwIwAHoECAoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0JMq_x5G0NlsIhTQCfTGI20 -
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Cheerful Spring wrote: »Most of the Dallas police why so? I don't believe that. There no evidence the Dallas Poice were involved in the conspiracy. What I said was Dallas police found a gun in the TSBD and identified as a Mauser 7.65mm rifle. Then made statements to that fact later. The gun was then handed over to people in the FBI, they took it away, and later they returned claiming it was not a Mauser but a Carcano rifle. The rifle could have switched in the handover and during the transport to the FBI lab?
Theres lots of videos and countless photos of them removing a Carcano from the TSBD and it was held high in the police department. Lots and lots of proof it was a Carcano.
Why would the FBI switch it after all of the pictures and videos show a Carcano? Theres no evidence of any Mauser shells or bullets in the victims, in the TSBD or in the car. None. Nothing.
Also if you assume Ruby was part of the plot - which is fairly impossible given his movements that morning - than there has to be a shed load of Dallas police involved. Delaying Oswald, allowing Ruby access, covering up the delay, waiting for Ruby to finish in Western Union etc. Timing like that would have taken the majority of the Dallas Police present in the building the morning Oswald was shot.
Shot by the way, not in the head or chest, but for the first time ever in a mafia hit, in the stomach. Which only kills about 1 out of 10 people.Cheerful Spring wrote: »The secret service guys are not secret service they part of the conspiracy. Likely mercenary CIA agents hired to do this job and would stay quiet. I put the number at about 20 or 30 who knew about the conspiracy. The event was likely compartmentalized, so the shooters may have only known who ordered and send them there not who planned the killing.
Pointless speculation. Theres no evidence for any of this.Cheerful Spring wrote: »Oswald did not go AWOL. A police officer saw Oswald in the lunch area sometime after the shooting. He did not run. By all accounts, the staff were sent home when the searches began. Oswald works at TSBD and there is no clear photograph of him in that area.
Oswald was the only person unaccounted for after the shooting. Now Jim Marrs will point out others were missing but they had left the TSBD before the shooting and weren't allowed back in. Officer Baker saw Oswald on the 2nd floor after the shooting as Oswald was leaving. He pointed a gun in his face and Oswald didn't flinch.
"by all accounts the staff were sent home". Course they were sent home. The building was a crime scene!Cheerful Spring wrote: »A lady saw a black car run Lee Bower car off the road and it crashed and he died sometime later. He was still awake when the emergency services reached him and Bowers claimed he was drugged. There also been speculation Lee Bowers saw more then he did but was too afraid to talk. His friend said one time he went missing and when saw him again a couple of his fingers were broken? His friend speculated he was threatened to keep his mouth shut.
Lee Bowers describing seeing three cars patrolling the area before the shooting. He saw one guy on a walkie-talkie. They were checking the area probably making sure it save for the shooters to operate in.
lol
Not just a police doing their random pre motorcade security searches like they did every time a president visited anywhere?
Nonsense.0 -
Theres lots of videos and countless photos of them removing a Carcano from the TSBD and it was held high in the police department. Lots and lots of proof it was a Carcano.
Why would the FBI switch it after all of the pictures and videos show a Carcano? Theres no evidence of any Mauser shells or bullets in the victims, in the TSBD or in the car. None. Nothing.
Also if you assume Ruby was part of the plot - which is fairly impossible given his movements that morning - than there has to be a shed load of Dallas police involved. Delaying Oswald, allowing Ruby access, covering up the delay, waiting for Ruby to finish in Western Union etc. Timing like that would have taken the majority of the Dallas Police present in the building the morning Oswald was shot.
Shot by the way, not in the head or chest, but for the first time ever in a mafia hit, in the stomach. Which only kills about 1 out of 10 people.
Pointless speculation. Theres no evidence for any of this.
Oswald was the only person unaccounted for after the shooting. Now Jim Marrs will point out others were missing but they had left the TSBD before the shooting and weren't allowed back in. Officer Baker saw Oswald on the 2nd floor after the shooting as Oswald was leaving. He pointed a gun in his face and Oswald didn't flinch.
"by all accounts the staff were sent home". Course they were sent home. The building was a crime scene!
lol
Not just a police doing their random pre motorcade security searches like they did every time a president visited anywhere?
Nonsense.
This is a Mauser 7.65 rifle do you think it looks different to the Carcano?
The rifle the official holding over his head looks like Mauser, just with a scope.
The Dallas police said it was a Mauser. It was the FBI who later claimed it was a Carcano. It weird mistake as both rifles is individually stamped with an identification mark. On a Carcano rifle, it stamped made in Italy. How did they not notice that at Dallas Police station? Roger Craig said they identified the rifle at TSBD because along the barrel the rifle was stamped, 7.65mm Mauser.
The envelope that was found in files belonging to the FBI in 1996, at one time contained a 7.65mm bullet, so we have to look at this again. That envelope states this 7.65 bullet was found at Dealey Plaza after the shooting. It was found the same week JFK was killed in 1963.
Ruby knew the Dallas Police as they came to his club often. They might have just let him in to see Oswald being moved from the jail. They might not have known he was going to shoot Oswald. We never know either way if a corrupt cop was involved and helped Ruby. This nonsense Ruby might not arrive in time to shoot Oswald. Well, his standing there Ruby before he came out. He wasn't late. Ruby was stalking Oswald for days there evidence of this. This was not a spur of the moment thing he was prepared for this.
You keep claiming he was unaccounted for but an officer ran into him after the shooting. He was in the Canteen area not leaving. Why would he stick around if he had just shot Kennedy? Sceptics never talk about that. Why did he not run immediately and try to get away?
Lee Bower said they were out of state cars and were muddied up like they came from a place with bad weather or travelled on a dirt road. They all had the same mud on the cars. They were unmarked cars not police cars.0 -
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Cheerful Spring wrote: »Have you got a source for this date and time? The rifle exchanged hands at 11.45 pm 22 Nov on the day Kennedy was killed and was returned on the 24th of November by the FBI. It was the FBI who notified the Dallas police it was a Carcano bolt-action Italian made rifle. Deputy Sheriff Eugene Boone made a statement 23 Nov, he and other police officers found a 7.65mm Mauser rifle.
Thats news footage from the day of the assassination. Well before 1145pm. Theres hours of it, continuous unbroken news footage and countless pictures taken by dozens of different people on the day before the gun was handed to the FBI. Its a Carcano. Oswalds Carcano. End of story.Cheerful Spring wrote: »You have heard of telephones? How do you know for sure Ruby was not told what time to be there at? You assuming he just showed up and was not arranged.
Have you pictures of Ruby waiting in a line? Or did you just read this in a JFK book and believe it to be true?
This is basic stuff. Regarding telephones, theres nothing apart from a call that is on the phone records from his dancer that morning asking for money, he was seen in the Western Union. He has a time stamped receipt for 11.17am which was found in Rubys pocket. This is well known and not disputed by anyone.
Oswald was supposed to be moved at 10am. Ruby was still in bed then. There were no calls made to him or by him by the police. He casually chatted with his neighbour as he left the house, brought his dogs with him, went and waited in line at the Western Union, calmly, not rushing. Killing Oswald wasn't premeditated.
Aside from this, if he was a part of the plot, why bother with the Western Union thing? He was always going to be caught regardless. Why not just go down there at 10am and kill Oswald? Him not being in Western Union doesn't prove a conspiracy or his innocence. And why shoot him in the stomach?Cheerful Spring wrote: »False Nal. Lee Bower described two of the cars as muddy. He did not say the other car had Texas plates least not in this interview.
Not what he told the Warren Commission. So yet an unreliable witness. But as I asked earlier, so what? A man saw cars in a car park. Wow. Defo a conspiracy then. It could've been undercover police, secret service, FBI or maybe, just maybe, people looking for somewhere to park their car!
Hundreds of cars drove in and around Dealey Plaza that morning before the road closures. So what?Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »How far back?
Two cars behind JFK. Not "way back". Proper conspiracy loon wording that from CS. "Way back". Vague and misleading. For fúcks sake. LBJ was close enough that if there was a crossfire he would've been in the line of fire.
LBJ being involved isn't a runner. Anyone who thinks it is hasn't done any proper research whatsoever. Its not worth entertaining.
They could've killed JFK with 2 people involved. At Love Field for example. Why not just have Ruby shoot him in the face here - as the "plot" always involved Ruby being caught - and then have a Secret Service agent kill Ruby on the spot. Easy.
Why there seems to be a need for fake Oswalds, forged documents, teams of shooters, cover ups, dodgy cars driving about I've no idea.
As for this Mauser, it wasn't a great weapon either. Who is going to green light an assassination with a Mauser or a Carcano? If the plot was as complicated and well planned as people think, how on earth would they let an assassin shoot at Kennedy with such an average weapon? And then they take out the assassin with a bullet to the stomach, giving them a 90% chance of survival (up to 98% if you can get quickly to a hospital as is the case here) and guaranteeing Oswald would spill the beans after likely surviving the attempt on his life.
Heres a study of 300 patients with abdominal gunshot wounds.
"The overall survival rate for the series was 88.3%; however, if only the 226 patients without vascular injuries are considered, the survival rate was 97.3%."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1493651/
Ruby got either very lucky or very unlucky depending on how you see it. The chances of him killing Oswald with that shot were tiny. If Jim Leavelle hadn't have pulled Oswald sideways slightly (as below) the bullet wouldn't have hit those organs and he could have easily survived. It was a total fluke that he died.
Sometimes common sense wins.0 -
Nope. Wrong again. You've been reading too much Mark Lane - who cherry picked his WC testimony (read it) and left out the bit in an interview where Bowers said he saw "no one" at the fence. This was all sorted out 50 years ago.
Lee Bowers saw two people nearer the underpass and two people on the underpass and two men in front of the fence, not behind it. Likely the people on the steps.
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/badgeman_4.htm
Gordon Arnolds story simply isn't credible. Bit of advice, stay clear of Jim Marrs (who is crazy) and Mark Lane (who has blood on his hands in Jonestown). Stick to more credible conspiracy theorists like Josiah Thompson or Robert Blakey. Don't agree with them but they are fair for the most part. And Gary Mack who was a devout conspiracy theorist at first and then changed over a period of time. Much like myself.
Nope. Wrong. Yet again. Oswald didn't have that that jacket with him until he went back to Irving and grabbed it and his revolver. He was wearing a dark shirt when he left the TSBD. Confirmed by a bus passenger who was his old landlady. Fibres of which were found in the Carcano. He had a white tshirt underneath. He had plenty of time to put that shirt on and leave the TSBD and get on that bus.
Since this thread seems to be just Cheerful Spring posting tidbits and quote mines, lets look at some facts. Other than above.
Oswald was the only person confirmed on the 6th floor at the time. He lied about his alibi. It was his rifle with fibres of his shirt in it. He brought a "package" into work that day. He was seen in the window. His rifle, the rifle they found, was missing from the Paines garage. He was the only person who went AWOL from the TSBD. His old landlady saw him on the bus. A bus transfer was found in his pocket. He went home and got his jacket and gun. He shot Tippet. The cartridge cases found beside Tippit's body were fired from Oswald's revolver. He tried to kill another policeman. He had bullets in his pocket when arrested. His prints were on both guns. There are eyewitnesses to both shootings. He left his wedding ring and almost every penny he has with Marina that morning.
Not to mention the Walker assassination attempt. Or Marina confirming he went to Mexico. Or Oswald, despite being obsessed with politics and the president being shot outside where he worked - just immediately leaving for the day. Or that fact that no plot is going to let the shooter carry it out with that gun, or let the shooter escape by bus and then run around suburban Dallas willy nilly. It makes no sense at all.
.
But all this is irrelevant I suppose because people can maybe see a shape in a very low quality photograph or interpret an ambiguous quote in some way.
If this was any other case, he would've been convicted with a quarter of this evidence. I wold recommend reading "Marina and Lee" by Priscilla McMillan. Arguably the best book about the assassination and most of it comes from Marina Oswald. Read it, take some time to study the man you are defending.
The problem I see it is this. If Oswald was to carry out the hit. It would have had to be coming up from Houston avenue for a myraid of reasons. He would have known the route the motorcade was taking and would have tried to take the shot at the statistically most probable chance of executing.
Now if we see JFK's motorcade here in Tampa which was just a few days previously we see security personnel manning the rear bumper. Emory Roberts called this bit of security detail off at the last minute in Love Field. But Oswald wasn't to know this.
This means that the Shot on Elm Street becomes virtually impossible now. Would it ever have been part of the plan in the first place. This is an important consideration in the was there or was there not a conspiracy?0 -
Whiplash85 wrote: »The problem I see it is this. If Oswald was to carry out the hit. It would have had to be coming up from Houston avenue for a myraid of reasons. He would have known the route the motorcade was taking and would have tried to take the shot at the statistically most probable chance of executing.
Now if we see JFK's motorcade here in Tampa which was just a few days previously we see security personnel manning the rear bumper. Emory Roberts called this bit of security detail off at the last minute in Love Field. But Oswald wasn't to know this.
This means that the Shot on Elm Street becomes virtually impossible now. Would it ever have been part of the plan in the first place. This is an important consideration in the was there or was there not a conspiracy?
Yup agree with you there. However even given the 6th floor elevation, the front shot has less of JFK to shoot at. When he turned the corner Oswald would've seen there were no security guys on the back of the car so he waited for the rear shot where he had more of JFK to hit. Longer to do it and a more stable shot.
By the time he figured out exactly where JFK was when he turned onto Houston he would've been too close, its a more difficult shot, aiming downwards like that from 6 floors. Thats not how he was trained to shoot. And he did miss the first shot which was of a similar position. If you believe it was him of course.
Now just for a second try imagine Oswald wasn't part of a plot, or even if he was, can you imagine the adrenaline, fear and excitement he must've been feeling. He may have considered not doing it right up until he pulled the trigger, who knows?
But back to common sense again, Dealey Plaza isn't a good spot to kill him. Right at the end of the motorcade. Main Street has buildings everywhere, the car was going slow, in a straight line.
A much better place for it.0 -
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Thats news footage from the day of the assassination. Well before 1145pm. Theres hours of it, continuous unbroken news footage and countless pictures taken by dozens of different people on the day before the gun was handed to the FBI. Its a Carcano. Oswalds Carcano. End of story.
This is basic stuff. Regarding telephones, theres nothing apart from a call that is on the phone records from his dancer that morning asking for money, he was seen in the Western Union. He has a time stamped receipt for 11.17am which was found in Rubys pocket. This is well known and not disputed by anyone.
Oswald was supposed to be moved at 10am. Ruby was still in bed then. There were no calls made to him or by him by the police. He casually chatted with his neighbour as he left the house, brought his dogs with him, went and waited in line at the Western Union, calmly, not rushing. Killing Oswald wasn't premeditated.
Aside from this, if he was a part of the plot, why bother with the Western Union thing? He was always going to be caught regardless. Why not just go down there at 10am and kill Oswald? Him not being in Western Union doesn't prove a conspiracy or his innocence. And why shoot him in the stomach?
Not what he told the Warren Commission. So yet an unreliable witness. But as I asked earlier, so what? A man saw cars in a car park. Wow. Defo a conspiracy then. It could've been undercover police, secret service, FBI or maybe, just maybe, people looking for somewhere to park their car!
Hundreds of cars drove in and around Dealey Plaza that morning before the road closures. So what?
Two cars behind JFK. Not "way back". Proper conspiracy loon wording that from CS. "Way back". Vague and misleading. For fúcks sake. LBJ was close enough that if there was a crossfire he would've been in the line of fire.
LBJ being involved isn't a runner. Anyone who thinks it is hasn't done any proper research whatsoever. Its not worth entertaining.
They could've killed JFK with 2 people involved. At Love Field for example. Why not just have Ruby shoot him in the face here - as the "plot" always involved Ruby being caught - and then have a Secret Service agent kill Ruby on the spot. Easy.
Why there seems to be a need for fake Oswalds, forged documents, teams of shooters, cover ups, dodgy cars driving about I've no idea.
As for this Mauser, it wasn't a great weapon either. Who is going to green light an assassination with a Mauser or a Carcano? If the plot was as complicated and well planned as people think, how on earth would they let an assassin shoot at Kennedy with such an average weapon? And then they take out the assassin with a bullet to the stomach, giving them a 90% chance of survival (up to 98% if you can get quickly to a hospital as is the case here) and guaranteeing Oswald would spill the beans after likely surviving the attempt on his life.
Heres a study of 300 patients with abdominal gunshot wounds.
"The overall survival rate for the series was 88.3%; however, if only the 226 patients without vascular injuries are considered, the survival rate was 97.3%."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1493651/
Ruby got either very lucky or very unlucky depending on how you see it. The chances of him killing Oswald with that shot were tiny. If Jim Leavelle hadn't have pulled Oswald sideways slightly (as below) the bullet wouldn't have hit those organs and he could have easily survived. It was a total fluke that he died.
Sometimes common sense wins.
What is the point here? If you shoot at someone by common consensus you are shooting to kill. Oswald had wounds to his aorta and pancreas and lost several litres of blood. Why not shoot him in the head is the question you are asking right which would mean an automatic kill. Well the head is a smaller target area and given the presence of many police personnel there may have been a struggle or a jostle and thrown gun off line. It was a safer and the percentage shot to shoot him in chest and with it inflict fatal wounds to many vital organs. By todays standards and modern medicine a shot to stomach may not be immediately fatal or situation may be retrievable but we are talking about 55 years ago now. Were there even defibrillators in use to try and resuscitate someone. Anyway that particular sub plot had all the hall marks of someone trying to shut someone up. Jack Rubys version of events are pie in the sky stuff and judging by his character he does not seem credible.0
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