JFK Assassination Autopsy Details Revealed After 55 Years

The Nal

Whiplash85 wrote: »

What is the point here? If you shoot at someone by common consensus you are shooting to kill. Oswald had wounds to his aorta and pancreas and lost several litres of blood. Why not shoot him in the head is the question you are asking right which would mean an automatic kill. Well the head is a smaller target area and given the presence of many police personnel there may have been a struggle or a jostle and thrown gun off line. It was a safer and the percentage shot to shoot him in chest and with it inflict fatal wounds to many vital organs. By todays standards and modern medicine a shot to stomach may not be immediately fatal or situation may be retrievable but we are talking about 55 years ago now. Were there even defibrillators in use to try and resuscitate someone. Anyway that particular sub plot had all the hall marks of someone trying to shut someone up. Jack Rubys version of events are pie in the sky stuff and judging by his character he does not seem credible.

That report I linked is from the mid 80s. A stomach shot is not a kill shot. It wasn't a kill shot in 1963 either. It was a fluke. Unless Ruby somehow knew he would rupture his aorta? He had no idea he was going to inflict fatal wounds to vital organs. There was much more of a chance of the bullet hitting nothing of significance and Oswald surviving to tell all.

Why didn't Ruby shoot him in the head at the press conference on the 22nd? He was there with a gun. Oswald was just standing there, stationary. Why take the risk of Oswald going before the world and spilling the beans on a conspiracy? Or telling the cops over the next 36 hours? How did the conspirators know he hadn't already told the cops everything?

Why not wait for him to get to jail and kill him there? If this conspiracy is as well organised as people say, killing him in jail is so easy. People get killed in jail all the time. It makes no sense to risk bungling an assassination attempt in the basement of the cop shop. And its not like the cops stood back and let Ruby finish the job. They were all over Ruby within a second. It makes no sense.

King Mob

Whiplash85 wrote: »

Well the head is a smaller target area and given the presence of many police personnel there may have been a struggle or a jostle and thrown gun off line. It was a safer and the percentage shot to shoot him in chest and with it inflict fatal wounds to many vital organs. By todays standards and modern medicine a shot to stomach may not be immediately fatal or situation may be retrievable but we are talking about 55 years ago now. Were there even defibrillators in use to try and resuscitate someone.

Which is why Oswald/the other shooter aimed for Kennedy's head...?

Cheerful Spring

The Nal wrote: »

Thats news footage from the day of the assassination. Well before 1145pm. Theres hours of it, continuous unbroken news footage and countless pictures taken by dozens of different people on the day before the gun was handed to the FBI. Its a Carcano. Oswalds Carcano. End of story.



This is basic stuff. Regarding telephones, theres nothing apart from a call that is on the phone records from his dancer that morning asking for money, he was seen in the Western Union. He has a time stamped receipt for 11.17am which was found in Rubys pocket. This is well known and not disputed by anyone.

Oswald was supposed to be moved at 10am. Ruby was still in bed then. There were no calls made to him or by him by the police. He casually chatted with his neighbour as he left the house, brought his dogs with him, went and waited in line at the Western Union, calmly, not rushing. Killing Oswald wasn't premeditated.

Aside from this, if he was a part of the plot, why bother with the Western Union thing? He was always going to be caught regardless. Why not just go down there at 10am and kill Oswald? Him not being in Western Union doesn't prove a conspiracy or his innocence. And why shoot him in the stomach?



Not what he told the Warren Commission. So yet an unreliable witness. But as I asked earlier, so what? A man saw cars in a car park. Wow. Defo a conspiracy then. It could've been undercover police, secret service, FBI or maybe, just maybe, people looking for somewhere to park their car!

Hundreds of cars drove in and around Dealey Plaza that morning before the road closures. So what?



Two cars behind JFK. Not "way back". Proper conspiracy loon wording that from CS. "Way back". Vague and misleading. For fúcks sake. LBJ was close enough that if there was a crossfire he would've been in the line of fire.

LBJ being involved isn't a runner. Anyone who thinks it is hasn't done any proper research whatsoever. Its not worth entertaining.

They could've killed JFK with 2 people involved. At Love Field for example. Why not just have Ruby shoot him in the face here - as the "plot" always involved Ruby being caught - and then have a Secret Service agent kill Ruby on the spot. Easy.

Why there seems to be a need for fake Oswalds, forged documents, teams of shooters, cover ups, dodgy cars driving about I've no idea.

As for this Mauser, it wasn't a great weapon either. Who is going to green light an assassination with a Mauser or a Carcano? If the plot was as complicated and well planned as people think, how on earth would they let an assassin shoot at Kennedy with such an average weapon? And then they take out the assassin with a bullet to the stomach, giving them a 90% chance of survival (up to 98% if you can get quickly to a hospital as is the case here) and guaranteeing Oswald would spill the beans after likely surviving the attempt on his life.

Heres a study of 300 patients with abdominal gunshot wounds.

"The overall survival rate for the series was 88.3%; however, if only the 226 patients without vascular injuries are considered, the survival rate was 97.3%."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1493651/

Ruby got either very lucky or very unlucky depending on how you see it. The chances of him killing Oswald with that shot were tiny. If Jim Leavelle hadn't have pulled Oswald sideways slightly (as below) the bullet wouldn't have hit those organs and he could have easily survived. It was a total fluke that he died.




Sometimes common sense wins.

Provide a correct timeline with a source, please. It was the FBI who notified the Dallas police the rifle was an Italian made Carcano. The Dallas police did know until then. The gun was not handed back to the Dallas police on 22th of Nov. So was not established it was Carcano rifle on the 22nd. Until you provide evidence that claims or states otherwise you wrong.

Ruby shot Oswald and killed him end of story. Where he was before that is irrelevant. He made it on time and shot him. How did he know Oswald was coming out at this time? You said yourself he came to the location at 11.21am. Do you think he just came there hoping Oswald was still there for him too shot? Don't be silly.

Ruby was a mob hitman you think he did not fire a gun before? You claiming he shot him in the wrong place, yet ignore Oswald died. The calibre of bullet Ruby used in his gun was enough to kill him up close, ever think of that?

Yet you claim the Carcano was the rifle that was used. Even though it well known the German Mauser is a superior weapon.

Cheerful Spring

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

How far back?

LBJ was not the target. The shooters were aiming at Kennedy in a different car. It's nonsense to claim he would be accidentally shot. They would have to never used a rifle before or be stupid and blind to hit LBJ car.

Tipsy McSwagger

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

LBJ was not the target. The shooters were aiming at Kennedy in a different car. It's nonsense to claim he would be accidentally shot. They would have to never used a rifle before or be stupid and blind to hit LBJ car.

How far back?

Cheerful Spring

Whiplash85 wrote: »

The problem I see it is this. If Oswald was to carry out the hit. It would have had to be coming up from Houston avenue for a myraid of reasons. He would have known the route the motorcade was taking and would have tried to take the shot at the statistically most probable chance of executing.

Now if we see JFK's motorcade here in Tampa which was just a few days previously we see security personnel manning the rear bumper. Emory Roberts called this bit of security detail off at the last minute in Love Field. But Oswald wasn't to know this.



This means that the Shot on Elm Street becomes virtually impossible now. Would it ever have been part of the plan in the first place. This is an important consideration in the was there or was there not a conspiracy?

We never know for sure but Oswald likely did not shot as he was not involved. The shooters were likely in adjacent buildings and did not have clear shot when the car came along the other street. They had to wait till the car passed TSBD and then they opened fire from behind. A rusty shell casing was found on the roof of Del Tac building in 1977 and this could be where one of the sniper teams was located.

Cheerful Spring

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

How far back?

Not sure never measured it. There video on this thread you can look at that shows a gap between the car following Kennedy and LBJ car. LBJ car was too far back to have got shot.

The Nal

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Provide a correct timeline with a source, please. It was the FBI who notified the Dallas police the rifle was an Italian made Carcano. The Dallas police did know until then. The gun was not handed back to the Dallas police on 22th of Nov. So was not established it was Carcano rifle on the 22nd. Until you provide evidence that claims or states otherwise you wrong.

Nope. Do your own research. Ive already posted proof. Note - not evidence, but proof.

The clip I posted is from 6.16pm on the day of the shooting, went out to the nation on the news, before the gun was handed to the FBI. He clearly says "6.5 apparently made in Italy in 1940". This was broadcast on TV on the day, at that time. Its fact. Hes not holding a Mauser with "7.65 Mauser" on it. Hes holding a Carcano. Oswalds Carcano. The same Carcano that was filmed and photographed coming out of the TSBD earlier that day.

2 hrs 27 mins here

All of the news stations were there filming, nation and local, as were the press from newspapers to magazines, independent journalists and even John Peel.

Claiming it not a Carcano and actually Craigs "7.65 Mauser" is absolutely stupid. The Carcano was live on the TV.

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Ruby shot Oswald and killed him end of story. Where he was before that is irrelevant. He made it on time and shot him. How did he know Oswald was coming out at this time? You said yourself he came to the location at 11.21am. Do you think he just came there hoping Oswald was still there for him too shot? Don't be silly.

Ruby said he walked over when he saw a bit of commotion going on. He had no idea what was going on before he walked out of the Western Union. Walked in, saw Oswald, didn't like Oswalds grin, snapped, shot him.

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Ruby was a mob hitman

Evidence please

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

The calibre of bullet Ruby used in his gun was enough to kill him up close, ever think of that?

Course, Ive never doubted that. Its just very very unlikely. To the point where a hitman shooting someone in the abdomen to round out a conspiracy this big is ludicrous. Anyway, who then takes out Ruby to shut him up? And then who takes out that guy? And the next guy.....

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Yet you claim the Carcano was the rifle that was used. Even though it well known the German Mauser is a superior weapon.

Im not sure what that means or the relevance of it. There was no Mauser anywhere, no Mauser shells or bullet fragments found anywhere in the TSBD, at the knoll, in the victims, in the car or anywhere in Dealey Plaza.

Whiplash85

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

We never know for sure but Oswald likely did not shot as he was not involved. The shooters were likely in adjacent buildings and did not have clear shot when the car came along the other street. They had to wait till the car passed TSBD and then they opened fire from behind. A rusty shell casing was found on the roof of Del Tac building in 1977 and this could be where one of the sniper teams was located.

I was more questioning the plausibility of the lone sniper in situ in the south eastern corner of the 6th floor of the TSBD. i.e. if I was the lone sniper the shot would have been a full frontal one coming up Houston gradually getting easier as opposed to a target moving away and getting smaller on Elm. The Dal Tex building always interested me. I reckon one of 4 teams of shooters I alluded to previously were located in 2nd or 4th floor here.

In reality there was no proper investigation. Certainly beyond reasonable doubt was never achieved. Warren Commission received their dictat from FBI director Hoover in which he said public must be convinced that Oswald did this alone. Any appetite or search for the truth ended when Ruby conveniently killed Oswald and the best piece of evidence we could have ever had. Any anyway what were qualifications of men sitting on warren commission. were they forensic experts? Would we even have heard of the single bullet theory had James Tague not being hit by Shrapnel. I dont think so. What relationship or connections did LBJ have with the guys on the warren commission? Certainly for me the WC does not hold any water as the terms of reference were deliberately too narrow and any counter arguments expunged. it is almost irksome when I hear the "WC found this" or the "WC stated this happened".

The Nal

Whiplash85 wrote: »

I was more questioning the plausibility of the lone sniper in situ in the south eastern corner of the 6th floor of the TSBD. i.e. if I was the lone sniper the shot would have been a full frontal one coming up Houston gradually getting easier as opposed to a target moving away and getting smaller on Elm. The Dal Tex building always interested me. I reckon one of 4 teams of shooters I alluded to previously were located in 2nd or 4th floor here.

In reality there was no proper investigation. Certainly beyond reasonable doubt was never achieved. Warren Commission received their dictat from FBI director Hoover in which he said public must be convinced that Oswald did this alone. Any appetite or search for the truth ended when Ruby conveniently killed Oswald and the best piece of evidence we could have ever had. Any anyway what were qualifications of men sitting on warren commission. were they forensic experts? Would we even have heard of the single bullet theory had James Tague not being hit by Shrapnel. I dont think so. What relationship or connections did LBJ have with the guys on the warren commission? Certainly for me the WC does not hold any water as the terms of reference were deliberately too narrow and any counter arguments expunged. it is almost irksome when I hear the "WC found this" or the "WC stated this happened".

In my opinion they came to correct conclusion but in the wrong way. Lots and lots of errors. They rushed it as there was an election coming up and the longer they took, the more people would scream conspiracy. I'm not claiming it was perfect. Far from it.

Warren Commission aside, the Dallas Police, the FBI, The Ramsey Clark Panel, The Rockefeller Commission and the HSCA (bogus acoustic evidence aside) all came to same conclusions.

No one has found anything credible in 55 years to point towards anything but Oswald being the sole assassin. Lots of theories, no evidence. Literally not one shred of credible evidence.

Cheerful Spring

Nal your wrong. Please watch this interview by Capt Fritz which was done the next day. They were still describing it as a rifle and he said the FBI had it. Also interesting the information about the mail order for the gun came from a tip. So somebody directed them to this alleged evidence.

2hours 17 minutes

Cheerful Spring

The Nal wrote: »

Im not sure what that means or the relevance of it. There was no Mauser anywhere, no Mauser shells or bullet fragments found anywhere in the TSBD, at the knoll, in the victims, in the car or anywhere in Dealey Plaza.

Not true as new evidence was found in 1996. An envelope was found in the evidence locker belonging to the FBI. It said on it in written 7.65mm calibre bullet found at Dealey Plaza after the shooting of Kennedy. The bullet was missing. That envelope sometime in the past contained this bullet and it now it's gone.

You're ignoring all the issues with the JFK Autopsy, I listed. Bullet fragments were not all removed from JFK body and would not surprise me if they have covered up finding other bullets. The magic bullet is clearly planted evidence.

The Nal

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Nal your wrong. Please watch this interview by Capt Fritz which was done the next day. They were still describing it as a rifle and he said the FBI had it. Also interesting the information about the mail order for the gun came from a tip. So somebody directed them to this alleged evidence.

2hours 17 minutes

Are you being stupid on purpose? That footage is from the next day. As you said. The footage I posted was from the day of the assassination before they gave the rifle to the FBI. Its a Carcano. Where does it say "7.65 Mauser" on the video I posted. Or any video from the 22nd. Show me. Show me one picture of the countless pictures that were taken that day of the rifle that proves its not a Carcano. Its clearly a Carcano.

Cheerful Spring

The Nal wrote: »

Are you being stupid on purpose? That footage is from the next day. As you said. The footage I posted was from the day of the assassination before they gave the rifle to the FBI. Its a Carcano. Where does it say "7.65 Mauser" on the video I posted. Or any video from the 22nd. Show me. Show me one picture of the countless pictures that were taken that day of the rifle that proves its not a Carcano. Its clearly a Carcano.

It was not described as a Carcano on the 22nd that your CNN video claims and you claim. Yes it footage from the next day and confirms what told you. The Dallas police believed the rifle was German Mauser. Only when it got returned and the FBI told them it was Carcano that they described it.

The Nal

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

It was not described as a Carcano on the 22nd that your CNN video claims and you claim. Yes it footage from the next day and confirms what told you. The Dallas police believed the rifle was German Mauser. Only when it got returned and the FBI told them it was Carcano that they described it.

lol. Go back to bed. You're a clown.

Cheerful Spring

The Nal wrote: »

lol. Go back to bed. You're a clown.

Nobody was describing the rifle as a Carcano on 22th. Nal the video proves it. Insults is best you can do:rolleyes:

The Nal

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Nobody was describing the rifle as a Carcano on 22th. Nal the video proves it. Insults is best you can do:rolleyes:

Im not explaining it again. Its there in the video. Not a Mauser or "7.65 Mauser" in sight. "Italian made". Its Oswalds gun. The same one they pulled from the TSBD and the same one Oswald was photographed with. The photo that he signed the back of that Marina took and was proved to have been taken by that camera. Which was a Carcano.

Cheerful Spring

The Nal wrote: »

Im not explaining it again. Its there in the video. Not a Mauser or "7.65 Mauser" in sight. "Italian made". Its Oswalds gun. The same one they pulled from the TSBD and the same one Oswald was photographed with. The photo that he signed the back of that Marina took and was proved to have been taken by that camera. Which was a Carcano.

I asked you for a source when the gun was shown you have not done so. Even if was shown on the 22nd nobody claimed that rifle was a Carcano. By the way i posted a Mauser gun picture and looks identical to the rifle. The gun they pulled from TSBD was described as 7.65mm Mauser rifle. It only changed to Carcano 2 days later after the FBI returned it.

The Nal

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I asked you for a source when the gun was shown you have not done so.

Is live TV footage from the day not a source?! Are you saying its faked or something? How can nobody see "7.65 Mauser" on the gun and how has no one in the last 55 years who has seen the footage twigged that its not the Carcano but actually a Mauser? Including the manufacturers who have viewed the footage of the day.

I asked you where it says "7.65 Mauser" on the gun and you have not done so.

I asked you for evidence that Ruby was a mob hitman and you have not done so.

I asked you what key authenticity test did the autopsy photos fail and how were they misrepresented in the HSCA report from a link you provided and you havent answered.

Tipsy has asked you twice how far back (way back) LBJ was and you haven't answered.

You've ignored every question you've been asked. You offer nothing. No theories or conclusions. You just cherry pick whatever suits and when asked to back anything up copy something unrelated from another website and paste it here.

You're a time waster.

Cheerful Spring

This statement by Seymour Weitzman who was there when they discovered the rifle is strange. And the statement was given on 23th by the way. Also they found the rifle 50 minutes after the shooting.




Is he saying there was a live round in the chamber? How that possible I thought Oswald fired three shots?

Boxes near the stairway? I thought the boxes were located near the 6th-floor window?

He claims it was 7.65mm Mauser they found. They looked at the rifle and were able to tell what calibre bullet it used? If it was Carcano how they make that mistake? Why did they not see the made in Italy stamp?

Timberrrrrrrr

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

This statement by Seymour Weitzman who was there when they discovered the rifle is strange. And the statement was given on 23th by the way. Also they found the rifle 50 minutes after the shooting.




Is he saying there was a live round in the chamber? How that possible I thought Oswald fired three shots?

Boxes near the stairway? I thought the boxes were located near the 6th-floor window?

He claims it was 7.65mm Mauser they found. They looked at the rifle and were able to tell what calibre bullet it used? If it was Carcano how they make that mistake? Why did they not see the made in Italy stamp?

So are you saying you believe him and that he is a credible witness?

Cheerful Spring

The Nal wrote: »

Is live TV footage from the day not a source?! Are you saying its faked or something? How can nobody see "7.65 Mauser" on the gun and how has no one in the last 55 years who has seen the footage twigged that its not the Carcano but actually a Mauser? Including the manufacturers who have viewed the footage of the day.

I asked you where it says "7.65 Mauser" on the gun and you have not done so.

I asked you for evidence that Ruby was a mob hitman and you have not done so.

I asked you what key authenticity test did the autopsy photos fail and how were they misrepresented in the HSCA report from a link you provided and you havent answered.

Tipsy has asked you twice how far back (way back) LBJ was and you haven't answered.

You've ignored every question you've been asked. You offer nothing. No theories or conclusions. You just cherry pick whatever suits and when asked to back anything up copy something unrelated from another website and paste it here.

You're a time waster.

The CNN video you posted the guy holding the rifle describes it as Italian made rifle. That's how I know that footage is not from 22 of Nov. It not in dispute, it was the FBI who told the Dallas Police it was a Carcano and that did not happen till sometime after the 24th of Nov.

It printed in very small writing on the barrel. You can't see when you zoom in to look at the rifle I try looking and the picture is blurry. Try yourself.

I have not had time to look up the HSCA thing yet.

Cheerful Spring

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So are you saying you believe him and that he is a credible witness?

He one of four police officers who discovered the rifle.

The strange part is Capt Fritz ejected a live round from the chamber according to this statement. I not sold on Oswald was a shooter. Just say Oswald was a shooter, he only fired two shots at Kennedy then. One live bullet was still in the chamber.

Timberrrrrrrr

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

He one of four police officers who discovered the rifle.

The strange part is Capt Fritz ejected a live round from the chamber according to this statement. I not sold on Oswald was a shooter. Just say Oswald was a shooter, he only fired two shots at Kennedy then. One live bullet was still in the chamber.

So in your mind he is a credible witness yes or no?

Cheerful Spring

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So in your mind he is a credible witness yes or no?

Yes, I believe Nal has the same opinion. He rejects Roger Craig testimony who also was there when they discovered the rifle.

Timberrrrrrrr

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Yes, I believe Nal has the same opinion. He rejects Roger Craig testimony who also was there when they discovered the rifle.

How many shots did you say you thought were fired that day?

Cheerful Spring

Nal it amazing you deny Ruby mob connections and then ignore he killed Oswald in cold blood. Are you really going to claim Ruby did not kill before. Oswald was his first kill that what you what me to believe?

Cheerful Spring

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

How many shots did you say you thought were fired that day?

In my opinion least 4 if not more.

Two shots from the behind at least and two shots from the front.

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

In my opinion least 4 if not more.

Is it 4 or is it more?

Who shot each bullet with what gun from what area? and where did each bullet go?

We'll start from there.

Ipso

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Is it 4 or is it more?

Who shot each bullet with what gun from what area? and where did each bullet go?

We'll start from there.

I predict at least our different ending points along the way.