2018 DCM (& Limerick & Berlin) Graduates Log: How far can we go?

coogy

OOnegative wrote: »

1. I wouldn’t take any break at all between plans, your basically building the base currently to start a plan, no break.

2. Regarding racing, I would simply drop one of the sessions that week and replace it with the race. Push other sessions post race out a day maybe to give yourself adequate time to recover.

3. If you haven’t raced since starting the base building plan stick to the paces you have been using for that. Gives you an excuse to race fairly soon into the 10k-Half plan to see where your at.

Thanks for the info, that's a great help!!

OOnegative

Best of luck to any Grads racing Raheny Sunday, have a great race & run well!! Plenty of detail in the reports.

kittyclaws

OOnegative wrote: »

Best of luck to any Grads racing Raheny Sunday, have a great race & run well!! Plenty of detail in the reports.

TLDR version, my running at the minute is not worthy of a full race report!
I'm still recovering from the virus from hell but this race went a lot better than expected I decided to run by feel instead of setting myself a target, I didn't look at my watch once. I was hoping, but not expecting - to come in under the 50 minute mark. Delighted to do it in 48.19.
It wouldn't be a Raheny report without mentioning the goodie bag - wow, definitely the best in the country

My PB from November still stands at 45 mins but hopefully by the Terenure 5 mile I'll be fighting fit to beat it. I'm back at the physio next week so hopefully she'll be able to give me some strengthening exercises, I'm still weak as a kitten, I'm back running and spinning so hopefully weight lifting will follow soon

Mr. Guappa

People talk a lot about maintaining good form when running. I'm trying to better understand what they mean. In my mind (and i could be way off) it's about keeping my back and shoulders upright and looking ahead rather than at the ground, but presumably there's more to it than that?

coogy

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

People talk a lot about maintaining good form when running. I'm trying to better understand what they mean. In my mind (and i could be way off) it's about keeping my back and shoulders upright and looking ahead rather than at the ground, but presumably there's more to it than that?

I'm the same, have been making little tweaks here and there. I've always felt that my strides were possibly a little long when running and I'm not sure if this is something I need to be careful of.

skyblue46

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

People talk a lot about maintaining good form when running. I'm trying to better understand what they mean. In my mind (and i could be way off) it's about keeping my back and shoulders upright and looking ahead rather than at the ground, but presumably there's more to it than that?

They are a few of the basics alright. It's also important to stay relaxed. Don't clench your fists. Keep the shoulders relaxed. Shake out the arms every so often. Make sure to use your arms when you run and try to ensure they swing back and forth, not across your body. Don't let either hand cross the centre line of the body.

Mr. Guappa

skyblue46 wrote: »

They are a few of the basics alright. It's also important to stay relaxed. Don't clench your fists. Keep the shoulders relaxed. Shake out the arms every so often. Make sure to use your arms when you run and try to ensure they swing back and forth, not across your body. Don't let either hand cross the centre line of the body.

That makes sense. I used get pain in my back when running and then I read somewhere that I shouldn't be clenching my fists. Ever since I stopped the fist clenching the back pain has gone away. My arm action could do with a bit of work I'd say, and the centre line tip is something I'll keep an eye on this week. Thanks!

ReeReeG

First of all, well done to all who raced at the weekend! Lots of super performances. I was quite jealous I didn't run Raheny this year!


I'm into week 4 of the grads 5k / 10k plan, and loving it so far I have to say. This week the Wednesday session has minutes at "AP". Is this Aerobic or Anaerobic Power on the runfastcoach calculator? I'd hope Aerobic or else it's hella intense...

skyblue46

ReeReeG wrote: »

First of all, well done to all who raced at the weekend! Lots of super performances. I was quite jealous I didn't run Raheny this year!


I'm into week 4 of the grads 5k / 10k plan, and loving it so far I have to say. This week the Wednesday session has minutes at "AP". Is this Aerobic or Anaerobic Power on the runfastcoach calculator? I'd hope Aerobic or else it's hella intense...

Deep breath and.....relax....its aerobic power :pac:

ReeReeG

skyblue46 wrote:

Deep breath and.....relax....its aerobic power

Goodie! Might be enjoyable in that case!

Strawberry Swan

Haven't posted in a while as haven't been running too often but have been doing a few races as it's one of my aims for 2019. So far this year I've almost reached my total races of last year at the grand total of 4, incl DCM!

I am very happy with my Raheny 5 mile race. I bet my best recent time by 1 minute which was set at one of the few races I did last year at Terenure 5. Although the temperature back then was way hotter.

I came to the race with literally no time to spare and arrived at the very back just as the race was starting. This meant that I was passing people for most of the way which was quite tough for the first mile or 2. The weather was fine once I got running and I was glad I didn't bother with any extra layers. Rushing to the start line meant I was well warmed up. I was breathing hard the whole way and felt good though a bit sluggish. Christmas and Jan choc have made their mark and now Raheny Choc

juke

Strawberry Swan wrote: »

Haven't posted in a while as haven't been running too often but have been doing a few races as it's one of my aims for 2019. So far this year I've almost reached my total races of last year at the grand total of 4, incl DCM!

I am very happy with my Raheny 5 mile race. I bet my best recent time by 1 minute which was set at one of the few races I did last year at Terenure 5. Although the temperature back then was way hotter.

I came to the race with literally no time to spare and arrived at the very back just as the race was starting. This meant that I was passing people for most of the way which was quite tough for the first mile or 2. The weather was fine once I got running and I was glad I didn't bother with any extra layers. Rushing to the start line meant I was well warmed up. I was breathing hard the whole way and felt good though a bit sluggish. Christmas and Jan choc have made their mark and now Raheny Choc

Well done on the PB - a minute is fantastic!

Strawberry Swan

juke wrote: »

Well done on the PB - a minute is fantastic!

Thank you! I dunno whether to call it a pb. It's a pb in last 8yrs. I'm determined to beat my actual ancient pb . . . sometime.

Oh and welcome back

eyrie

Strawberry Swan wrote: »

Haven't posted in a while as haven't been running too often but have been doing a few races as it's one of my aims for 2019. So far this year I've almost reached my total races of last year at the grand total of 4, incl DCM!

I am very happy with my Raheny 5 mile race. I bet my best recent time by 1 minute which was set at one of the few races I did last year at Terenure 5. Although the temperature back then was way hotter.

I came to the race with literally no time to spare and arrived at the very back just as the race was starting. This meant that I was passing people for most of the way which was quite tough for the first mile or 2. The weather was fine once I got running and I was glad I didn't bother with any extra layers. Rushing to the start line meant I was well warmed up. I was breathing hard the whole way and felt good though a bit sluggish. Christmas and Jan choc have made their mark and now Raheny Choc

Brilliant, well done! Definitely counts as a PB in my book (though working towards your 8 year old one sounds like a good challenge too ).

eyrie

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

People talk a lot about maintaining good form when running. I'm trying to better understand what they mean. In my mind (and i could be way off) it's about keeping my back and shoulders upright and looking ahead rather than at the ground, but presumably there's more to it than that?

I was listening to a podcast talking about research around running form recently and they came to the conclusion that trying to change most of it is not very effective and not very necessary, in most cases. The two things they said did seem to help were if you try to remember to keep your elbows back and run 'tall' from your hips, as in keep lifted from there rather than have your lower back/abdomen more slumped. If that makes sense... I've tried it a few times and it makes sense when you do it. Remembering to keep doing it is a whole other story though... :pac:

Huzzah!

eyrie wrote: »

I was listening to a podcast talking about research around running form recently and they came to the conclusion that trying to change most of it is not very effective and not very necessary, in most cases. The two things they said did seem to help were if you try to remember to keep your elbows back and run 'tall' from your hips, as in keep lifted from there rather than have your lower back/abdomen more slumped. If that makes sense... I've tried it a few times and it makes sense when you do it. Remembering to keep doing it is a whole other story though... :pac:

Probably another argument for more core work...Not that I'll listen; I'll just continue to wonder why I'm tipped over to the side in photos taken at the end of races.

coogy

Hi folks,

I think I posted here the other week that it was my intention to move on to the 10k-half marathon plan once I'd completed the base plan.

I just wanted to check that it was ok to skip the 5k-10k plan. Pretty sure that at this stage, there wouldn't be enough time to fit them all in anyway?
Just curious to know what plans last year's Grads took on, post DCM?

Mr. Guappa

coogy wrote: »

Hi folks,

I think I posted here the other week that it was my intention to move on to the 10k-half marathon plan once I'd completed the base plan.

I just wanted to check that it was ok to skip the 5k-10k plan. Pretty sure that at this stage, there wouldn't be enough time to fit them all in anyway?
Just curious to know what plans last year's Grads took on, post DCM?

I'm not sure what you mean by skip? You can do whatever plan you like. Pick a target race in May or thereabouts and train with that as your primary goal.

For instance, I want to concentrate on short stuff over the next few months, and I've found a local 10k in May that suits me, so I'll be starting the 5k/10k plan with that race as the end goal. After that my next big target will be DCM, so I'm thinking a few weeks of freestyling following the 10k, then another whack of the base plan and into a DCM plan.

skyblue46

coogy wrote: »

Hi folks,

I think I posted here the other week that it was my intention to move on to the 10k-half marathon plan once I'd completed the base plan.

I just wanted to check that it was ok to skip the 5k-10k plan. Pretty sure that at this stage, there wouldn't be enough time to fit them all in anyway?
Just curious to know what plans last year's Grads took on, post DCM?

Hi K. No problem taking on either plan. They are not a progression that need to be followed in sequence. Myself and Browneyes and Omeceron started with the 10k/HM plan with Bohermeen in mind. I don't think any of last years grads moved to the 5-10k plan.

There wasn't any reason for this beyond race choices in the months ahead.

skyblue46

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by skip? You can do whatever plan you like. Pick a target race in May or thereabouts and train with that as your primary goal.

For instance, I want to concentrate on short stuff over the next few months, and I've found a local 10k in May that suits me, so I'll be starting the 5k/10k plan with that race as the end goal. After that my next big target will be DCM, so I'm thinking a few weeks of freestyling following the 10k, then another whack of the base plan and into a DCM plan.

I know it's a long way off yet but when it comes to it I can heartily recommend the Grads Intermediate marathon plan.

Swashbuckler

Huzzah! wrote:

Probably another argument for more core work...Not that I'll listen; I'll just continue to wonder why I'm tipped over to the side in photos taken at the end of races.

One thing I've learned is you quickly find out where your weaknesses are when the going gets tough in a race.

You can spend a lot of time over thinking what way your foot is landing, what way your elbows are going etc etc. I've done it and I'm not sure it was a fruitful task. I think if you continue to run consistently and start addressing supplementary stuff when you can like core strength, Drills and Strides, flexibility, stuff like that, it all eventually adds up. It doesn't really work very well when you're "concentrating on how to run better". Look at all the good athletes, they tend to address a lot of the supplementary stuff on top of running. But even that needs to be managed carefully.

coogy

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by skip? You can do whatever plan you like. Pick a target race in May or thereabouts and train with that as your primary goal.

For instance, I want to concentrate on short stuff over the next few months, and I've found a local 10k in May that suits me, so I'll be starting the 5k/10k plan with that race as the end goal. After that my next big target will be DCM, so I'm thinking a few weeks of freestyling following the 10k, then another whack of the base plan and into a DCM plan.

Grand, thanks for clearing that up! I suppose what my dilemma was not knowing whether to move on to the 5-10k plan or the 10k-half marathon plan.

I got it now!!

juke

Random question that I might not articulate well:

Is a 3mm increase in heel drop (27mm to 30mm) enough that it could cause heel pain?

I rotate 3-4 pairs of runners. While training for DCM I was never 100% sure what was causing heel pain in my left foot and usually just put it down to mileage. It hasn't been a problem since.

Last Monday, the first time wearing these runners in ages, (20 min. v. easy) and the familiar pain was back They are so comfortable, otherwise.

skyblue46

juke wrote: »

Random question that I might not articulate well:

Is a 3mm increase in heel drop (27mm to 30mm) enough that it could cause heel pain?

I rotate 3-4 pairs of runners. While training for DCM I was never 100% sure what was causing heel pain in my left foot and usually just put it down to mileage. It hasn't been a problem since.

Last Monday, the first time wearing these runners in ages, (20 min. v. easy) and the familiar pain was back They are so comfortable, otherwise.

It's not the heel height that makes a difference, it's the drop in the shoe. A shoe with a heel of 30 and a midsole of 24 would be a 6mm drop. A 27mm heel could be paired with a 15mm midsole and have a 12mm drop as a result. Find out what the difference between front and rear height is.

juke

skyblue46 wrote: »

It's not the heel height that makes a difference, it's the drop in the shoe. A shoe with a heel of 30 and a midsole of 24 would be a 6mm drop. A 27mm heel could be paired with a 15mm midsole and have a 12mm drop as a result. Find out what the difference between front and rear height is.

D'oh....thanks. Back to OH's measuring tools

Kellygirl

juke wrote: »

D'oh....thanks. Back to OH's measuring tools

If you google the shoe you should be able to find out what the drop is with out having to do the measuring yourself.

juke

Kellygirl wrote: »

If you google the shoe you should be able to find out what the drop is with out having to do the measuring yourself.

Tried that, thanks - it's an unworn but pretty old model of asics (Kinsei 2) - I have only found ebay pages so far.

Not to worry, that's what OH engineer's are for

ReeReeG

The long runs on the 5k plan have been 1 hr 45 mins up to now, but this week has only 70 mins. Any particular reason why ? Step back week of sorts?

And if I did the 1 hr 45 mins again instead, what are the possible problems with that?

OOnegative

ReeReeG wrote: »

The long runs on the 5k plan have been 1 hr 45 mins up to now, but this week has only 70 mins. Any particular reason why ? Step back week of sorts?

And if I did the 1 hr 45 mins again instead, what are the possible problems with that?

Looking at plans i’d say step back week alright regarding longer run, if that’s what the plan says I would stick to it. Just my my opinion on it.

Kellygirl

ReeReeG wrote: »

The long runs on the 5k plan have been 1 hr 45 mins up to now, but this week has only 70 mins. Any particular reason why ? Step back week of sorts?

And if I did the 1 hr 45 mins again instead, what are the possible problems with that?

If it’s any consolation I felt the same as you that week of the 70 mins and wanted to do a longer run. I stuck to the 70 mins and funnily enough felt a bit more refreshed the next week which I didn’t expect.

On the other hand the plan says you can add up to 30 mins very easy to a few runs a week so you could do that if for some reason you really wanted to do the longer run ... but I think maybe enjoy the shorter run if you can. There’s not too many of them!

ReeReeG

OOnegative wrote:

Looking at plans i’d say step back week alright regarding longer run, if that’s what the plan says I would stick to it. Just my my opinion on it.

Kellygirl wrote:

If it’s any consolation I felt the same as you that week of the 70 mins and wanted to do a longer run. I stuck to the 70 mins and funnily enough felt a bit more refreshed the next week which I didn’t expect.

Thanks I probably will stick with the 70 mins as I have been sticking to the plan quite rigidly so far, but was curious... in case I get lost on Sunday and accidentally add miles :-p

coogy

I'll be totally honest here, I do not understand the first thing about heart rates when it comes to running. I assumed my Garmin did not have that function (it's pre-owned and I rarely explore beyond programming workouts) but it appears that it does.

Is it recommended, when running as regularly as 5/6 days a week, to be more aware of heart rate levels? (especially at my age :rolleyes:)

Huzzah!

coogy wrote: »

I'll be totally honest here, I do not understand the first thing about heart rates when it comes to running. I assumed my Garmin did not have that function (it's pre-owned and I rarely explore beyond programming workouts) but it appears that it does.

Is it recommended, when running as regularly as 5/6 days a week, to be more aware of heart rate levels? (especially at my age :rolleyes:)

It wouldn't really be an age thing, just another way of tracking effort. Sometimes, an elevated HR can be an indication that you're coming down with a cold or whatever.

I keep an eye on my HR as it keeps me honest. I know whereabouts my HR should be if I'm running my easy runs properly easy. I also find it useful on my hilly commute - I can do certain sessions based on HR rather than pace.

Like anything, it has disadvantages and you've to know your correct max HR to use it properly. Some people use HR reserve, which I think is more accurate, but to do so, you've to know your correct resting HR (I don't know mine). Other factors can interfere, such as temperature, if you're wearing a backpack and so on and so forth.

Hedgehoggy

Would it be possible to not actually be fully recovered from the marathon yet? Ive lost a bit of fitness but legs are feeling very heavy and struggling on runs. It's strange I'm doing OK during my sessions and can do paces Im aiming for, they're hard but you'd expect them to be hard...but I'm also finding slow runs hard. Like no matter how slow I run, it's like I'm stuck to the ground..... Any recommendations?

OOnegative

Hedgehoggy wrote: »

Would it be possible to not actually be fully recovered from the marathon yet? Ive lost a bit of fitness but legs are feeling very heavy and struggling on runs. It's strange I'm doing OK during my sessions and can do paces Im aiming for, they're hard but you'd expect them to be hard...but I'm also finding slow runs hard. Like no matter how slow I run, it's like I'm stuck to the ground..... Any recommendations?

No you should be well recovered from DCM by now, sessions should be somewhat difficult as you say, but slow runs certainly shouldn’t be anyway hard. Maybe go get your bloods done to see how you are?

skyblue46

Hedgehoggy wrote: »

Would it be possible to not actually be fully recovered from the marathon yet? Ive lost a bit of fitness but legs are feeling very heavy and struggling on runs. It's strange I'm doing OK during my sessions and can do paces Im aiming for, they're hard but you'd expect them to be hard...but I'm also finding slow runs hard. Like no matter how slow I run, it's like I'm stuck to the ground..... Any recommendations?

It really depends on what you did between then and now rather than the fact that 3 months have passed. If you resumed training before you were fully recovered and continued to train at a level that only increased fatigue then you may well be over training. Then again it may just be winter blues! On the other hand if you rested properly in the 3/4 weeks post marathon it would not be affecting you negatively now.

Hedgehoggy

Hmm... Haven't done much really since marathon and haven't raced since jingle bells. Only really bk doing sessions the last 3wks. Had planned a 10k last wknd but it was cancelled due to frost... Maybe it's actually that I've lost more fitness than I want to admit and I need to adjust my paces a bit.

Checking bloods might be a good idea any, plus my nutrition could def do with more attention. I'm probably expecting to 'perform' but not taking same care with all the background sleep and food stuff I was last yr....

ariana`

Hedgehoggy wrote: »

Hmm... Haven't done much really since marathon and haven't raced since jingle bells. Only really bk doing sessions the last 3wks. Had planned a 10k last wknd but it was cancelled due to frost... Maybe it's actually that I've lost more fitness than I want to admit and I need to adjust my paces a bit.

Checking bloods might be a good idea any, plus my nutrition could def do with more attention. I'm probably expecting to 'perform' but not taking same care with all the background sleep and food stuff I was last yr....

I hate to say it but it could definitely be loss of fitness :cool: I am in a similar boat, i haven't run much since DCM (29 miles in November and 70 miles in December), i ran an 8k race at the end of the 3rd week in January and my paces took a big hit based on the result, which was about 2:30 off the time my best 5k time from last year was predicting for the distance

It's pretty soul destroying but a few good weeks of consistent running will see things start to improve for us. Could you run a Parkrun or other race just to see where you are and get updated paces to train off? In the meantime i'd suggest adding 20-30 seconds to your easy pace and see how you feel running at that?

Hope you have a speedy return to fitness

Huzzah!

I have what is probably a particularly stupid question

Should you do your last session before your goal race a certain number of days out or does it matter?

To put my question into context: the plan has the last session on a Wednesday and the race is on a Sunday. My last session will be on the Tuesday and the race won't be till the following Monday - does it matter that the gap will effectively be two days longer?

OOnegative

Huzzah! wrote: »

I have what is probably a particularly stupid question

Should you do your last session before your goal race a certain number of days out or does it matter?

To put my question into context: the plan has the last session on a Wednesday and the race is on a Sunday. My last session will be on the Tuesday and the race won't be till the following Monday - does it matter that the gap will effectively be two days longer?

Can you do your session Wednesday? In my opinion it’s doesn’t make much difference, as long as you have a 2/3 day gap before the race in which to recover and be fresh for your race.

Huzzah!

OOnegative wrote: »

Can you do your session Wednesday? In my opinion it’s doesn’t make much difference, as long as you have a 2/3 day gap before the race in which to recover and be fresh for your race.

Great, thanks I'm the world's best over thinker.

OOnegative

With Raheny & Trim done and dusted, anybody care to divulge what lies ahead now? Many sign up for DCM? Applegirl is in middle of marathon training already, fair play!! Huzzah has unfinished business this weekend in Enniscorthy!!

Mr. Guappa

OOnegative wrote: »

With Raheny & Trim done and dusted, anybody care to divulge what lies ahead now? Many sign up for DCM? Applegirl is in middle of marathon training already, fair play!! Huzzah has unfinished business this weekend in Enniscorthy!!

I read that you should target 2, maybe 3 races as your 'A' goals for a year, so that's what I've done. The second one of those is DCM and the first is the Annerville 10km in May. I'll start into the 5k/10k grads plan (from Wk 2) next week which will take me up to that 10km race.

OOnegative

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

I read that you should target 2, maybe 3 races as your 'A' goals for a year, so that's what I've done. The second one of those is DCM and the first is the Annerville 10km in May. I'll start into the 5k/10k grads plan (from Wk 2) next week which will take me up to that 10km race.

Annerville? Tipperary I think? Yeah that’s a solid plan alright, that gives you a decent gap between goal 10k race before getting into DCM prep. Keep the injuries at bay Dude and you’ll have a great year going on Dungarvan.

Mr. Guappa

OOnegative wrote: »

Annerville? Tipperary I think? Yeah that’s a solid plan alright, that gives you a decent gap between goal 10k race before getting into DCM prep. Keep the injuries at bay Dude and you’ll have a great year going on Dungarvan.

Yep, Clonmel. Cheers. I'll have plenty more races as I go along, but those two will be the main focus.

Dealerz2.0

Still feeling it post trim but It’s bohermeen, Belfast, some DCM race series and then DCM for me! Handy really!!!
Really starting to enjoy the grads basic plan right now.

OOnegative

Dealerz2.0 wrote: »

Still feeling it post trim but It’s bohermeen, Belfast, some DCM race series and then DCM for me! Handy really!!!
Really starting to enjoy the grads basic plan right now.

Yip, sensible spacing marathons out the way you are, May to October should leave you adequate recovery time between the two. Racing both?

Dealerz2.0

OOnegative wrote: »

Yip, sensible spacing marathons out the way you are, May to October should leave you adequate recovery time between the two. Racing both?

Well, the plan in my head is clear so hopefully it works out. Finished outside where I wanted to at DCM ‘18, (4:23-included a few walks as quads flared-up at mile 17) so my plan is 4:10/15 in Belfast and if plans and training works out- another attempt at getting 3:59. But certainly not nailed on to that. Finished Trim in 87mins.

OOnegative

Dealerz2.0 wrote: »

Well, the plan in my head is clear so hopefully it works out. Finished outside where I wanted to at DCM ‘18, (4:23-included a few walks as quads flared-up at mile 17) so my plan is 4:10/15 in Belfast and if plans and training works out- another attempt at getting 3:59. But certainly not nailed on to that. Finished Trim in 87mins.

Stay injury free and continue the progress, no reason sub 4 should not be on come DCM. Keep training within the times your racing and you should see improvement upon improvement but listen to the body to. Apologies didn’t realise you raced Trim also, i’m slipping a bit!!

Dealerz2.0

OOnegative wrote: »

Stay injury free and continue the progress, no reason sub 4 should not be on come DCM. Keep training within the times your racing and you should see improvement upon improvement but listen to the body to. Apologies didn’t realise you raced Trim also, i’m slipping a bit!!

Thanks appreciate the advice- I’ve been mostly dipping in and out here- will try post more.