Suicide

triggermortis

I was at a funeral of an ex-colleague last Friday who killed himself. Lovely guy with 3 young kids.
He was out golfing and drinking with mates the day before. Then got up for work, stopped on the way and ended it all.
The thing that really got me was there were 3-400 people there and nobody had a clue he was going to do it.

PostWoke

Mad_maxx wrote: »

It's usually nice people who take their own lives, self absorbed assh0les who don't give a fcuk can get through anything

The way of the world, you won't find anyone arguing that here I would say.

It's worth remarking that overall, suicide rates have fallen nearly 40% since 2001. Health expenditure on mental health services hasn't changed at anywhere near that rate (its been 6% of overall health budget for years) so something else is behind the reduction.

I think it's the diminishing stigma of mental health problems. People are more confident in opening up to colleagues and friends about their problems. There is much greater media focus on mental health problems, and more community-driven activism (eg Darkness into Light), and all of this takes the discussion into family kitchens and workplaces and, of course, online discussion.

So the next time some melt whinges about all of this talk about mental health in recent years, they should probably consider that it does seem to be having the intended effect.

PostWoke

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

It's worth remarking that overall, suicide rates have fallen nearly 40% since 2001. Health expenditure on mental health services hasn't changed at anywhere near that rate (its been 6% of overall health budget for years) so something else is behind the reduction.

I think it's the diminishing stigma of mental health problems. People are more confident in opening up to colleagues and friends about their problems. There is much greater media focus on mental health problems, and more community-driven activism (eg Darkness into Light), and all of this takes the discussion into family kitchens and workplaces and, of course, online discussion.

So the next time some melt whinges about all of this talk about mental health in recent years, they should probably consider that it does seem to be having the intended effect.

Except that you are conjuring up this equivalence, and while suicide rates may be down, 4 out of 5 of them in this country are men, which is a puzzle in of itself that needs solving.

PostWoke

PostWoke wrote: »

Except that you are conjuring up this equivalence, and while suicide rates may be down, 4 out of 5 of them in this country are men, which is a puzzle in of itself that needs solving.

I don't know what the rate of change in the male suicide statistics are per 100k, so I don't know what you're referring to exactly.

We know that the rate of change per year has fallen faster than any increase in public investment. This indicates that some kind of broader social change is influencing the incidence of suicide, that's quite obvious, and we should learn from it.

I'm supposing that there's a relationship with diminishing levels of stigma surrounding mental health problems, but obviously we should be open to all possibilities.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

It's worth remarking that overall, suicide rates have fallen nearly 40% since 2001. Health expenditure on mental health services hasn't changed at anywhere near that rate (its been 6% of overall health budget for years) so something else is behind the reduction.

I think it's the diminishing stigma of mental health problems. People are more confident in opening up to colleagues and friends about their problems. There is much greater media focus on mental health problems, and more community-driven activism (eg Darkness into Light), and all of this takes the discussion into family kitchens and workplaces and, of course, online discussion.

So the next time some melt whinges about all of this talk about mental health in recent years, they should probably consider that it does seem to be having the intended effect.

I am all for people confiding in trusted loved ones or mental health professionals if they feel like they are overwhelmed. That is good. That is very, very good.

What I throw the side-eye at is ill-qualified wannabe influencers and celebrities glomming onto the mental health thing in order to have a USP. I suffered from quite severe clinical depression in the past. I feel in no way qualified to counsel others who have it. In fact, I think it could be dangerous for a layperson to attempt to do so. They could do more harm than good.

PostWoke wrote: »

Except that you are conjuring up this equivalence, and while suicide rates may be down, 4 out of 5 of them in this country are men, which is a puzzle in of itself that needs solving.

It’s a trend repeated the world over. Ireland is not unique in the majority of suicides being men. Some countries buck the trend but most are the same as Ireland.

dd973

Going to the funeral service of a long-standing friend and ex-workmate tomorrow, apparently what got to him was the side effects of reducing anti-depressant dosage, bloody shocked when it happened, in fact, it'll feel like being at somebody's else's funeral as I cannot imagine the chap being dead.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I am all for people confiding in trusted loved ones or mental health professionals if they feel like they are overwhelmed. That is good. That is very, very good.

What I throw the side-eye at is ill-qualified wannabe influencers and celebrities glomming onto the mental health thing in order to have a USP. I suffered from quite severe clinical depression in the past. I feel in no way qualified to counsel others who have it. In fact, I think it could be dangerous for a layperson to attempt to do so. They could do more harm than good.

Generally, I share your skepticism. I suspect that some people are mistaking their very ordinary anxieties for something as acute and as debilitating as anxiety, as clinically defined.

But we don't have proof of that. And even if a small number of people are (irresponsibly) self diagnosing in that way, there is no reason to believe that it's having any impact.

More people than ever before are coming forward with their experiences of mental health difficulties, and fewer people are taking their own lives. I am not an expert, but I suspect there is some correlation.

If anyone has a more logical explanation, I'm sure everyone would be all ears!

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Generally, I share your skepticism. I suspect that some people are mistaking their very ordinary anxieties for something as acute and as debilitating as anxiety, as clinically defined.

But we don't have proof of that. And even if a small number of people are (irresponsibly) self diagnosing in that way, there is no reason to believe that it's having any impact.

More people than ever before are coming forward with their experiences of mental health difficulties, and fewer people are taking their own lives. I am not an expert, but I suspect there is some correlation.

If anyone has a more logical explanation, I'm sure everyone would be all ears!

The suicide rates have been falling since 2001. High profile people and social media wannabe influencers looking for a unique angle being vocal about mental health is a much more recent phenomenon. Less than a decade old. Even before we get to whether correlation implies causation, the two things don’t even correlate.

I’m not just talking about self-diagnosing either, I’m talking about giving advice to others despite not being qualified.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

The suicide rates have been falling since 2001. High profile people and social media wannabe influencers looking for a unique angle being vocal about mental health is a much more recent phenomenon. Less than a decade old. Even before we get to whether correlation implies causation, the two things don’t even correlate.

I’m not just talking about self-diagnosing either, I’m talking about giving advice to others despite not being qualified.

it's wider than celebrities talking about their mental health problems, though. That's a tiny aspect of what I'm talking about. I'm talking about things that have promoted discussion and diminished stigma in general, such as school talks, greater community activism and visibility, the media's role in general - because that's where most people have observed a shift in attitudes.

I can't think of anything else that has changed very much since 2001 which would explain such a significant reduction in suicide rates, but am open to correction.

It certainly can't be health funding for mental health services but I suppose it's possible that there is significantly more private investment.

Just remembered another obvious one when it comes to communication and sharing information that happened around 2000 - vastly enhanced access to the Internet and other communications, allowing people to communicate in different ways.

I'm not saying "that's the reason", it's just one of the other factors to consider as possibly influencing the change.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

it's wider than celebrities talking about their mental health problems, though. That's a tiny aspect of what I'm talking about. I'm talking about things that have promoted discussion and diminished stigma in general, such as school talks, greater community activism and visibility, the media's role in general - because that's where most people have observed a shift in attitudes.

I can't think of anything else that has changed very much since 2001 which would explain such a significant reduction in suicide rates, but am open to correction.

It certainly can't be health funding for mental health services but I suppose it's possible that there is significantly more private investment.

Well, that’s what I was talking about. But even Darkness Into Light has only become very popular in the last five years.

PostWoke

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I am all for people confiding in trusted loved ones or mental health professionals if they feel like they are overwhelmed. That is good. That is very, very good.

What I throw the side-eye at is ill-qualified wannabe influencers and celebrities glomming onto the mental health thing in order to have a USP. I suffered from quite severe clinical depression in the past. I feel in no way qualified to counsel others who have it. In fact, I think it could be dangerous for a layperson to attempt to do so. They could do more harm than good.



It’s a trend repeated the world over. Ireland is not unique in the majority of suicides being men. Some countries buck the trend but most are the same as Ireland.

Suicide does affect more men than women worldwide, but I believe the 4/5 statistic is worse than in most countries. It has only recently becoming this bad, in any case, so I'm not sure what your point is, and it certainly doesn't offer any possible solutions...

Agreed with the celebs filming bits for suicide awareness though. They can **** off.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

PostWoke wrote: »

Suicide does affect more men than women worldwide, but I believe the 4/5 statistic is worse than in most countries. It has only recently becoming this bad, in any case, so I'm not sure what your point is, and it certainly doesn't offer any possible solutions...

Agreed with the celebs filming bits for suicide awareness though. They can **** off.

I don’t think so. As far as I know, male suicide has always greatly outnumbered female suicide. That’s something I’ve personally known for a long time. What’s your point?

PostWoke

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I don’t think so. As far as I know, male suicide has always greatly outnumbered female suicide. That’s something I’ve personally known for a long time. What’s your point?

It was a news story last year. It's always been badly skewed, but 4/5 is new depths.

You quoted me, not the other away round, so dunno why you're deflecting my question with another question.

This story was covered on RTÉ's 9pm news tonight:
Oireachtas committee hears of effect of suicide on family

In the news, though, it said that the suicide rate in the Traveller community is seven times higher than in the settled community. This RTÉ report from last May says it was six times higher.

And this story, from October 2017: ‘It’s no longer a shock’: the high suicide rate among Travellers: Bridgie Casey has lost 12 members of her extended family to suicide in five years

PostWoke

Deleted User wrote: »

This story was covered on RTÉ's 9pm news tonight:
Oireachtas committee hears of effect of suicide on family

In the news, though, it said that the suicide rate in the Traveller community is seven times higher than in the settled community. This RTÉ report from last May says it was six times higher.

And this story, from October 2017: ‘It’s no longer a shock’: the high suicide rate among Travellers: Bridgie Casey has lost 12 members of her extended family to suicide in five years

If we had causes that would be helpful data. Are these grand romantic gestures related to exes going off with someone else etc? Are there firearms involved? Or is it unhappiness with how their life has turned out in terms of education and opportunities?

Watch the fakewokes spin this into being because people are mean in mentioning traveller crime rates and general anti-social behaviour.

PostWoke

PostWoke wrote: »

Watch the fakewokes spin this into being because people are mean in mentioning traveller crime rates and general anti-social behaviour.

You're the first person in the thread to go down this ridiculous line of dismissing any suicide as a "romantic gesture" or to pursue any kind of speculation about criminality, so maybe have a look at yourself before you try to pre-emptively have a go at other users. Dope.

PostWoke

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

before you try to pre-emptively have a go at other users. Dope.

Who said anything about other users of this board? I was thinking about our wonderful Irish media and politicians tbh. Also, you followed up with an ouroboros of irony there with that silly personal attack, didn't you?

You're the same guy who completely misconstrued my point in the Margaret Cash thread, and then silently refused to admit it, right?

Who's the dope?

PostWoke

PostWoke wrote: »

Who said anything about other users of this board? I was thinking about our wonderful Irish media and politicians tbh. Also, you followed up with an ouroboros of irony there with that silly personal attack, didn't you?

You're the same guy who completely misconstrued my point in the Margaret Cash thread, and then silently refused to admit it, right?

Who's the dope?

Firstly I don't tend to remember many usernames on boards, as far as I know we've never interacted.

Secondly, when you said "Watch the fakewokes spin this into being because people are mean in mentioning traveller crime rates" are you suggesting that it's the media, then, who will pounce on your comments? I don't think they care, mate. This thread is about suicide, not your petty little gripes with specific communities.

PostWoke

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Firstly I don't tend to remember many usernames on boards, as far as I know we've never interacted.

Secondly, when you said "Watch the fakewokes spin this into being because people are mean in mentioning traveller crime rates" are you suggesting that it's the media, then, who will pounce on your comments? I don't think they care, mate. This thread is about suicide, not your petty little gripes with specific communities.

Incorrect; it's already happening https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/it-s-no-longer-a-shock-the-high-suicide-rate-among-travellers-1.3241847

Woman cites the rate being down to 'racism' (they're caucasians just like us) then goes on to tell us her brother's suicide was a result of his wife passing. Not even she can get her stories straight :pac:

And you know exactly who I am by what I'm referring to. You asked me if I was asserting that home life played no part in how a child turned out, when I had been very clearly been stating the exact opposite, and when I made that clear, you suspiciously stopped quoting me altogether. Let's not play this game hmm.

PostWoke

PostWoke wrote: »

And you know exactly who I am

I am not getting involved in some argy-bargy with someone who wants to have a go at travellers, in a thread like this.

As per the quote above, though, I think that's the first laugh I've had in this thread. "you know exactly who I am". OK so.

Realt Dearg Sec

PostWoke wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

This story was covered on RTÉ's 9pm news tonight:
Oireachtas committee hears of effect of suicide on family

In the news, though, it said that the suicide rate in the Traveller community is seven times higher than in the settled community. This RTÉ report from last May says it was six times higher.

And this story, from October 2017: ‘It’s no longer a shock’: the high suicide rate among Travellers: Bridgie Casey has lost 12 members of her extended family to suicide in five years

If we had causes that would be helpful data. Are these grand romantic gestures related to exes going off with someone else etc? Are there firearms involved? Or is it unhappiness with how their life has turned out in terms of education and opportunities?

Watch the fakewokes spin this into being because people are mean in mentioning traveller crime rates and general anti-social behaviour.

Jesus did you stop for even a second to think about how bad this post makes you look in the context of a thread like this? More traveler bashing, just what we need.

um7y1h83ge06nx

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

One thing that really and truly annoys the sh1t out of me, is when you hear people talking about people who committed suicide, and describe it as being a very selfish act.

Bollocks.

I was told recently about someone that committed suicide and the person that told me said if she could meet him she would hit him, that what he did was an absolute disgrace to his wife and that he was so selfish. Not one ounce of sympathy for him.

Didn't know the guy myself but felt sorry for him with comments like that.

Graces7

Sariah Mysterious Zeal wrote: »

I was told recently about someone that committed suicide and the person that told me said if she could meet him she would hit him, that what he did was an absolute disgrace to his wife and that he was so selfish. Not one ounce of sympathy for him.

Didn't know the guy myself but felt sorry for him with comments like that.

simply great grief is all. anger and pain are akin.

PostWoke

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I am not getting involved in some argy-bargy with someone who wants to have a go at travellers, in a thread like this.

As per the quote above, though, I think that's the first laugh I've had in this thread. "you know exactly who I am". OK so.

Your willingness to glaze over any points made in a post to hitch on to something you can ****post over would make any alt-righter blush.

Graces7

Graces7 wrote: »

simply great grief is all. anger and pain are akin. and she has a valid point. his pain is over; hers is just beginning and she will carry guilt also for what he did.

This outlook is what needs to change. The person who took their own life should stay alive and be in pain just so others can feel better about themselves? Is anyone a winner in that scenario? All destined to lead miserable lives.

Nobody should feel guilty (unless they really were a direct cause of the suicide) and perhaps that is where mental health awareness needs to focus too. To put it bluntly, their life so their choice should they wish to end it.

PostWoke

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Jesus did you stop for even a second to think about how bad this post makes you look

I didn't, but I can for you now if you like.

It doesn't.

We're talking about an ethnic group manipulating a serious topic, the topic of this thread, for reasons that are completely in bad faith. It's very relevant. For one, it prevents us from coming up with accurate solutions to solving the problem.

PostWoke

PostWoke wrote: »

I didn't, but I can for you now if you like.

It doesn't.

We're talking about an ethnic group manipulating a serious topic, the topic of this thread, for reasons that are completely in bad faith. It's very relevant. For one, it prevents us from coming up with accurate solutions to solving the problem.

Maybe think for a moment that some of the people responding to this thread have been bereaved by suicide.

Whatever their opinions of travellers (and naturally some people will dislike travellers) I haven't seen anyone "manipulating" this thread like you are. Every surviving victim of suicide is mourning a bereaved person. Whether or not that person was a member of the travelling community doesn't matter. It does not take away from their loss.

Everyone who has been bereaved by suicide is grieving, regardless of what stage they're at. Your attempt to divide people into traveller and non-traveller categories is pretty sick tbqfh

PostWoke

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Maybe think for a moment that some of the people responding to this thread have been bereaved by suicide.

You don't know my relationship to the topic. You don't speak for us or anyone. In fact your only opinions shared about the topic has been to call the person you knew of 'selfish'. So I don't know what you think you're achieving here.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Whatever their opinions of travellers (and naturally some people will dislike travellers) I haven't seen anyone "manipulating" this thread like you are.

You really have cognition problems. How is the woman mentioned IN AN IRISH TIMES ARTICLE manipulating THIS THREAD?? I never alluded anything of the sort, because it's INSANE.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Everyone who has been bereaved by suicide is grieving, regardless of what stage they're at. Your attempt to divide people into traveller and non-traveller categories is pretty sick tbqfh

Again, you don't know my relationship to the subject, so keep your mansplaining to yourself. And I have made no such attempts. You're just intellectually dishonest. Let's see you quote me on where I said 'suicide is different between ethnic groups'. Go on. I'll wait. Or, just save us a lot of time and leave the thread. And any thread of serious topic matter, because you are so hopelessly outgunned arguments wise you have to lie to get out it most of the time.

There's a very poignant story about a 17-year-old girl taking her life having been bullied in school that's the most read story on The Irish Times this evening:

‘People asked did she leave a note? What did she say? That is unbelievably intrusive’: Helena Tubridy’s daughter Karla died at age 17


The mother was caustic that after the funeral people just forgot about their loss but I suspect most people wouldn't know what to say and they wouldn't want to intrude on such a deep loss. At least one of her relatives clearly didn't know what to say below. And there is a nasty smug mentality among some of the more ignorant sorts about death from suicide.

With the exception of a few very good friends, Helena says people dropped off instantly after the funeral, leaving her and her family feeling very lost and alone.

There were lots of “insincere hugs and promises of ‘I must get in touch’ and then you never hear from them again”, she says.

Some comments and remarks Helena heard in the aftermath of Karla’s death were difficult to bear.

“The relative who said ‘I’m not jealous of you any more’. I am obviously a brilliant actor because I stood there and nodded and smiled back,” she says.

“Because my beloved, adored, fabulously amazing girl was dead I was now changed. I was less statused. I found that just incredible.”


Questions also overstepped the mark. “People asking, did she leave a note? What did she say? That is unbelievably intrusive.”

‘A lesser death’
There is a feeling of being “othered”, she says. “Other bereaved parents will say things like ‘my child died in a car accident’. They will always qualify it wasn’t suicide. Suicide is a lesser death.”

Helena’s focus after Karla’s death was on Suzanne and ensuring she had as normal and happy a life as possible. She returned to work four days after Karla died, “because we had to eat”, she says...

The Pieta House advice in that article is worth bearing in mind for those of us who might be stuck with what to say or do:

How to give support
Josephine Kieran, bereavement co-ordinator at Pieta House, offers some advice on supporting families who have been bereaved by suicide.

– Be mindful that in supporting a person or family, you’re in it for the long haul. Grief and loss is not like an illness that will be over in a few weeks, months or even by the first anniversary.

– Offer practical support: cooking dinners, getting the groceries, mow their lawn, offer to do the school run. Where possible, we should do what we can without being asked.

– Don’t use the word ‘commit’ as this can have connotations that their loved one did something wrong. A more gentle way to describe what has happened would be to say died by suicide, ended their own life.

– Don’t use platitudes, ‘if I were you’, ‘time will heal, ‘they are at peace now’. These are unhelpful and can cause the bereaved to feel misunderstood.

– Listen without judgement. Empathise, acknowledge what has happened, show compassion and validate their feelings.
– Remember their loved one by name. Share your memories or photos

yerwanthere123

Whilst the rates of suicide are, thankfully, going down in Ireland, are they going up for the younger generations? Feels like there's a lot more suicide among teenagers nowadays, or perhaps it's simply getting reported more. There was a primary school aged boy from Dublin who committed suicide a few months back, breaks my heart to think a child could get to a stage that they thought they had nothing to live for.

Stacksofwacks

I considered suicide some years ago when I have going through a really bad patch.What stopped me doing it was I didn't have the courage to carry it out..also I thought about the effects it would have on those closest to me. I just waited it out and the urge went away eventually. Not somewhere I'd ever want to go back to.

Better Than Christ

I came very close to it last year, during a particularly bleak period of unemployment and loneliness. I planned it very carefully over a couple of months, including a detailed written explanation that I hoped would (somewhat, at least) mitigate the mess left behind and the effect it would have on my family. I think I would have gone through with it, but I'll never know for sure. There are times when I regret not having done it when I had the (for want of a better word) strength to do so. I'm no longer unemployed, and my work both satisfies and distracts me, but the feelings of bleakness and hopelessness are still there when I get home.

Wanderer78

Better Than Christ wrote:

I came very close to it last year, during a particularly bleak period of unemployment and loneliness. I planned it very carefully over a couple of months, including a detailed written explanation that I hoped would (somewhat, at least) mitigate the mess left behind and the effect it would have on my family. I think I would have gone through with it, but I'll never know for sure. There are times when I regret not having done it when I had the (for want of a better word) strength to do so. I'm no longer unemployed, and my work both satisfies and distracts me, but the feelings of bleakness and hopelessness are still there when I get home.

I hope you receive the help that is required, best of luck

ExMachina1000

Hi ExMachina1000,

Please know that you do not have to deal with this on your own.

We encourage people experiencing difficulties to talk to someone they trust and, if appropriate, to go to their GP. If you need help urgently and outside of GP hours, please go to your nearest A&E department.

Here at Boards.ie our moderators are not trained to support people experiencing difficulties. There are other organisations better positioned to provide specialised support. These organisations are listed below. We hope that you will follow these up so that you can get the help and support you need.

If you need immediate help:
Aware’s Support Line is open 7 days per week, 10am-10pm on 1800 804 848

The Samaritan’s phone line is open 24/7 on 116 123

Pieta offer one-to-one, face-to-face support. Click 'Contact us' to find the phone number and opening hours of your nearest branch on their site or email mary@pieta.ie for advice on getting an appointment.

Text about it - text HELLO to 50808 to speak to a Crisis Volunteer in a safe space via text. Service available 24/7.

If you need non-urgent help:
Aware have a support email service at supportmail@aware.ie

There are some other useful services that you can use also listed here.

jiltloop

Mad_maxx wrote: »

A hundred and one things people do are selfish, it's sort of tedious people bleating on about selfishness here as if it was the only single example of it ever

It always strikes me somewhat ironically (on the subject of suicide and selfishness) that actually grief is quite a selfish emotion!

fryup

grief is selfish?? elaborate.....

Ex Mach,

I’m sorry to hear of your medical issues. I’m not any way qualified to offer you medical advice of a physical or mental nature.

I would like to suggest that you take a look at the forum games section of boards. The title of the games may look weird and yes, the players that partake are even weirder but those weirdos are the friendliest and funniest rivals you could have.

I know it’s nothing like the physical exercise that’s been taken from you but I promise you WILL laugh and release copious amount of endorphins. Consider it a healthy distraction even if it’s just for a little while.

Take care

freshpopcorn

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

It comes and goes but its always there

Here is a link to support services that may be helpful.

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057178293/1/#post89677352

Also you can text HELLO to 50808 if you want to text somebody.

vriesmays

yerwanthere123 wrote: »

Whilst the rates of suicide are, thankfully, going down in Ireland

We're not even in the top 50 countries for suicide.